Official BBR Tier List v7

[Grim Tuesday]

>plays jiggs
>doesnt like norfair

wut

Oh, I was responding to the PS2 bit before you edited

****ing love Norfair :3

stage bans are not a solution to a stage that causes a problem in EVERY matchup. its blatant circle camping. any non ditto matchup will see this problem

Do not agree. Not with a global LGL, at least.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You know what would be a simple addition to the rules to allow more stages? Multiple stage bans. A simple addition that would justify a little more leniency on stage lists.

 

[DMG]

Norfair is super easy to time people out on, because there's not a lot of room for ground characters to move around to catch the faster air characters. I can't begin to describe how big of a boner I get at the thought of playing Wario vs X Matchup on Norfair. MK could run the clock with gliding or tornado or just being super fun killing mode safe. You don't need to grab the edge to time someone out on Norfair, just be faster than they are and hop around.

PS2 on the other hand... that's a stage which actually suffers from being unpopular. I have to actually think for a second to understand or find the flaws in that stage, Norfair is pretty blatantly obvious from my personal perspective.

 

[Z'zgashi]

As a Yoshi player, I use to abuse the hell out of Norfair when that was legal, I loved it. Ledge canceled eggs from ledge to ledge was the best, and no one could ever catch me :3c

 

[bubbaking]

Again, Melee has like 10 version of battlefield. Whats wrong with redundancy? Its only redundant in the vague way halberd and delfino are redundant due to sharking. Thats ONE similarity.

It's a big obstacle that pops up in the middle of the field and if I grab you while facing it, I get a free infinite to death. That's ALL the similarity I need and it's enough to make that phase as dumb as the rest.

 

[Tesh]

It takes very little skill to circle camp someone on norfair. Its not like BF or unlimited lgls with a non mk character. There is almost 0 chance of a slower character catching up with you to form a conflict and read you for damage.

Although, the only major circuit to run it legal showed some amazingly diverse results (even for the time), so maybe it says something about game balance when Sonic has an absurd counterpick to beat MK on.

At what cost though...

 

[Z'zgashi]

It's a big obstacle that pops up in the middle of the field and if I grab you while facing it, I get a free infinite to death. That's ALL the similarity I need and it's enough to make that phase as dumb as the rest.

PS1 has a wall too, in fact it has two. You can also do the same thing with the windmill with the right timing, so its basically like having two and a half walls, thats more than PS2 wall wise, so saying PS1 > PS2 because of the PS2 ground section... I dont see it.

 

[Tesh]

It's a big obstacle that pops up in the middle of the field and if I grab you while facing it, I get a free infinite to death. That's ALL the similarity I need and it's enough to make that phase as dumb as the rest.

Thats the risk you take when you approach on that phase, just like any walkoff, body of water, ledgeless platform, low ceiling/high platform, deep offstage etc. In smash there is always a risk related to positioning on any stage at any time. This is exactly why its always logically in someone's best interest to camp out any phase on any stage. Most people won't because most people just don't do it now. How many times in top level play have u seen people approach into the windmill? Happens far too often. Or people approaching into walkoffs.

edit: personally as wario i feel the same way about the gap in the middle of battlefield, get grabbed there and they get a free infinite/major punish to death.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Sakurai was going for simplicity with Sonic's moveset, as a means of relating to the way the Sonic games played back on the Genesi, where all he did was spin in a ball and roll into enemies.

If it's a lazy design, it's not on Sakurai's hand any more than Sega's design from the get go.
I can only call it lazy from a visual perspective myself.

Sonic's entire set of normals was almost entirely taken from other characters.
UAir is Wolf's USmash animation
FAir is Falco's FAir
NAir is Wolf's NAir
DAir is ZSS's DAir
FSmash is Wario's FTilt
DTilt is Sheik's DTilt
FTilt is actually his
UTilt is Captain Falcon's USmash
USmash is actually his
DSmash is actually his
BThrow is Pikachu's BThrow
FThrow is MK's FThrow

 

[bubbaking]

Z'zgashi, now when did I ever say that PS1 > PS2?

Regardless, that's how I think, but I never declared it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You said you were fine with PS1 and not PS2, I put two and two together.

 

[bubbaking]

I think PS1 is better than PS2 because it actually has at least one phase (maybe two) that isn't ridiculous. The grass phase is just another regular stage and the water stage is OK once you get past that super campy windmill. PS2, at best, has the flying stage, and that's sketchy.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think both of the PS stages are really dumb, to be honest.

I consider myself to have a pretty "liberal" stage view, but any stage that forces both competitors to stand there and do nothing for upwards of a minute shouldn't be legal. I'm not even sure why we're still having this discussion. :|

The F-Zero stage is better than either PS stage.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I think PS1 is better than PS2 because it actually has at least one phase (maybe two) that isn't ridiculous.

Neither stage should be allowed for a milder form of the same reason we have pictochat banned.

Also why is Lylat still a commonly accepted starter? Stage is ***.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Whats wrong with Lylat lol

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, Lylat's a pretty bad starter, IMO. I don't have anything wrong with it being a CP, but it's a little too strong to be a starter.

 

[Sinister Slush]

How about we just agree on each of the PS1 and 2 transformations there's a place we can camp for the entirety of the transformation, while trying to approach the one who was successful at getting the usual camping spot gets punished severely for getting near the enemies quiet place.

 

[Tesh]

Sonic's entire set of normals was almost entirely taken from other characters.
UAir is Wolf's USmash animation
FAir is Falco's FAir
NAir is Wolf's NAir
DAir is ZSS's DAir
FSmash is Wario's FTilt
DTilt is Sheik's DTilt
FTilt is actually his
UTilt is Captain Falcon's USmash
USmash is actually his
DSmash is actually his
BThrow is Pikachu's BThrow
FThrow is MK's FThrow

Some of this isn't even remotely fair. For the record, Sonic has been kicking things and spinning into a ball long before Wolf even existed. Sonic had his own fighting game before any of those character as well, which is where most of his moveset comes from.

I can't believe you would actually try to say that spinning into a ball was stolen from wolf. Good lord have you even heard of Sonic before Brawl?

Listing Wolf and ZSS and MK, they didn't even show up in smash until the same game as sonic.

Most of his tilts, smashes, jabs and aerials come from sonic the fighters or sonic 1 2 3 and CD, long before wolf or zss existed in their own games.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Sonic was added last in development.

All other character movesets can be assumed to have existed before he was added to the game.

The animations are clearly used with minor edits.

If you can't see that, i really don't know what to say besides get your eyesight checked.

 

[bubbaking]

Sonic's entire set of normals was almost entirely taken from other characters.
UAir is Wolf's USmash animation
FAir is Falco's FAir
NAir is Wolf's NAir
DAir is ZSS's DAir
FSmash is Wario's FTilt
DTilt is Sheik's DTilt
FTilt is actually his
UTilt is Captain Falcon's USmash
USmash is actually his
DSmash is actually his
BThrow is Pikachu's BThrow
FThrow is MK's FThrow

Ftilt is actually Pika's
Also, his jab is Ness'

Most of his tilts, smashes, jabs and aerials come from sonic the fighters or sonic 1 2 3 and CD, long before wolf or zss existed in their own games.

Actually, ZSS has existed since the NES (technically before, I think); she just didn't look like she does now. The same goes for Wolf, except he's from the SNES era. Also, it would have made MUCH more sense if Sonic had at least gotten some of his moves from Sonic Battle. That is one area where P:M will have eternally outdone every Brawl hack as well as vBrawl itself.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Some of this isn't even remotely fair. For the record, Sonic has been kicking things and spinning into a ball long before Wolf even existed. Sonic had his own fighting game before any of those character as well, which is where most of his moveset comes from.

I can't believe you would actually try to say that spinning into a ball was stolen from wolf. Good lord have you even heard of Sonic before Brawl?

Listing Wolf and ZSS and MK, they didn't even show up in smash until the same game as sonic.

Most of his tilts, smashes, jabs and aerials come from sonic the fighters or sonic 1 2 3 and CD, long before wolf or zss existed in their own games.

I must admit, you made me laugh on this one. Nice trolling.

 

[Browny]

Sonic's entire set of normals was almost entirely taken from other characters.
UAir is Wolf's USmash animation
FAir is Falco's FAir
NAir is Wolf's NAir
DAir is ZSS's DAir
FSmash is Wario's FTilt
DTilt is Sheik's DTilt
FTilt is actually his
UTilt is Captain Falcon's USmash
USmash is actually his
DSmash is actually his
BThrow is Pikachu's BThrow
FThrow is MK's FThrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8LQjYjP5kQ

get lost

 

[Peachy-Desu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8LQjYjP5kQ

get lost

His specials are unique to him, but in terms of his normal move set it's obv from other characters. Perhaps the other characters copied sonic all along before he was even thought of being added!

 

[Tesh]

Sonic was added last in development.

All other character movesets can be assumed to have existed before he was added to the game.

The animations are clearly used with minor edits.

If you can't see that, i really don't know what to say besides get your eyesight checked.

uair and bthrow maybe, but you can clearly see those other animations come STRAIGHT from an old sonic game so I don't see how they could make the animations different.

Ftilt is actually Pika's
Also, his jab is Ness'



Actually, ZSS has existed since the NES (technically before, I think); she just didn't look like she does now. The same goes for Wolf, except he's from the SNES era. Also, it would have made MUCH more sense if Sonic had at least gotten some of his moves from Sonic Battle. That is one area where P:M will have eternally outdone every Brawl hack as well as vBrawl itself.

wasnt that just samus in a bikini? zero suit first appears in zero mission on gameboy and wolf wasnt in the snes starfox so he really didn't exist until starfox 2 (wasnt released?) or n64 version of starfox

i like sonic battle more than the fighters as well

 

[bubbaking]

Same Samus, same deal.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Samus is one person, the clothes she's wearing aren't super relevant >_>

In Smash we use ZSS and Samus to differentiate between which of the character's movesets we're talking about, but I mean really ZSS is always just Samus in a different outfit.

 

[bubbaking]

Since Zero = none/nothing, shouldn't Zero Suit Samus be naked?

 

[Tesh]

She didnt have the zero suit though (apparently), she was just in underwear. Clearly didnt have a blaster or whip or even shoes (so those kick attacks wouldnt make ANY sense).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, the suit she's wearing is literally called the "Zero Suit." Now, the question we should be asking is whether or not Samus' power suit could be called the "One Suit."

One Suit Samus? 1SS?

 

[bubbaking]

Wait a second, canonically, Zero Mission is just a remake of Metroid and is the first game of the storyline. Therefore, Samus ALWAYS had the Zero Suit. Conclusion: The Zero Suit can transform from a bikini into a body suit.




Edit: I'm more a fan of "Infinity Suit".

 

[bubbaking]

This is why people can't have nice things.

We went from rulesets to stages to the semantics of ZSS.

And I forgot about that tidbit in between where people were arguing about how to stop the invincible Sonic on Spindash Island.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS is a C Tier character.

She's B Tier for every free 60% she gets due to tripping.
Maybe even A+/S tier with Apex 2013 tripping.

ZSS actually trips a bit more than a lot of other characters because of how she uses dashing

I know you're trolling but I also don't recall Salem getting dsmash from a trip.


Anyway Marth is a C tier character

He's B tier for every time someone fails to punish his whiffed up+b for no reason or fails to escape non-combos like fthrow->nairx2 or fails to punish aerial side-b on shield
Maybe even A+/S tier with Europe's gimmicky Marth nonsense that stops working when they travel

Spoiler

do i have to say that i'm kidding, i hope not

 

[Loota]

D3's wall infinite on PS2 isn't a problem at all, only bad players get infinited there. It's not hard to keep away from the right side (or getting grabbed there in the first place) and the stage itself informs you when the wall is coming up. Besides that I can't see anything else wrong with it though apporaching the left side could prove difficult due to having to land at a downward slope or use all your jumps to get close to the ledge.

Treadmills can be annoying but that's all there is to them. Both the center and the ledges are really powerful places to be so you aren't screwed if your opponent manages to secure the center to him or herself.

Ice transormation might be the one with the least of problems. Walking is nerfed and running around is a bit more difficult but that's kinda it. People haven't gotten used to ice so it seems a mess fightning there but that's understandable since ice is only present in two stages in the game. It's basically an icy FD with two platforms.

Weaker gravity is really unique too since it too is only partly present in a few unusual stages (Summit, Pirate Ship, Spear Pillar and PS2) but afaik it doesn't cause any real problems here, just a different take on combating. Just don't bring G&W here

 

[-LzR-]

And the ground phase has 2 platforms right next to the wall as well. Why not take that route and approach from the left if you have to?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

At what point is "too many little things" enough? >_>

I hate PS2, the day it was collectively banned was the happiest day in Smash for me, maybe next to the day Japes was banned. I don't care how many essays people type on how competitively sound it is, it sucks to play on and everyone hates it except a few characters that CP it whenever it isn't banned. The obstacles are obnoxious, the camping is ridiculous, the silliness it brings to matches isn't fun or entertaining to watch. It just blows.

And PS1 can go fly a kite too. Any stage that encourages players to stand at opposite sides of the stage taunting each other for over a minute at a time can seriously ****ing burn.

Thank god it's only about 40 seconds.

Way too long still.

 

[DeLux]

You say that like flying a kite is a bad thing

 

[-LzR-]

And PS1 can go fly a kite too. Any stage that encourages players to stand at opposite sides of the stage taunting each other for over a minute at a time can seriously ****ing burn.

Thank god it's only about 40 seconds.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

BTW, what's the deal with Port Town? I know people really hate the cars, but there's plenty of warning and unless you do something dumb it's pretty hard for them to kill you. The cars hurt less in melee but they were also harder to avoid and I believe present for a longer period of time. There was also some complaining about one of the walls dealing damage to you at some point during the stage, but it's no better or worse than say... Halberd.

Thank god it's only about 40 seconds.

Way too long still.

 

[DeLux]

The stage has a hitbox

 

[Sunnysunny]

UAir is Wolf's USmash animation

What?!
Nut uh.

He doesn't even go "Hawoooo!!!"