St4ticFir3
Smash Cadet
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- 32
You have to be wary of any good Dair while rockin the ledge. Lucario's no more than say...diddy, falco, or ness.
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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Steam
Smash Hero
yeah but those don't come out Frame four AND go through your Uair 
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I want to say slightly Luc's advantage or even. Pit has well rounded tools so Lucario can't really shut him down in anything he is better than Pit in. Killing isn't a huge issue for Pit, sort of, but it's isn't that big of a deal for him.
I do think saying Pit having an advantage is unlikely, but then again I feel like Luc having it is also unlikely but not as much, if that makes sense.
Blame my character bias I guess.
Actually he is.
He has escape options, more range, better spacing, etc. When he's careful getting a good kill is kinda hard for her.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
As a lucario main I hate Snake, Wario, and D3 (used to be okay with the third option, the MU was waaaaaaaaaaaay overrated back before the usmash boost).
I'm going to just collapse these b/c their long and not a lot of people care to read about lucario so if you want to read some long stuff, go ahead.
Wario
DDD
Snake
Fox/Zelda rebuttal
Pit
Marth
I'm going to just collapse these b/c their long and not a lot of people care to read about lucario so if you want to read some long stuff, go ahead.
Wario
Anyone that can air camp really well and has a strong kill move to eliminate Lucario early in stock and avoid risk of getting hit by risky high aura powered moves is dumb, and Wario's one of them.
DDD
D3 was cool in the sense that D3's grab is fairly easy to avoid (you'll definitely get grabbed at some point) as lucario if you know what you're doing, it's less of "D3 has a CG that ***** you and you're struggling to get damage" and more of "D3 has a CG to catch up on getting damage on you from how much you string him up". Not only that, but prior to getting this guaranteed kill setup, D3's kill potential is fairly low unless you fall for a read, which let Lucario harness high aura for long enough to make his moves safer, which definitely helped. Now this capability to kill at 120% or so makes it definitely harder, probably hardest MU to date, especially because so much rests on winning the first round.
Snake
Snake's a "you **** this character fairly well, provided you get in". Lucario's juggle setups are really good, which are complimented by his ability to nullify AD really well as an option. It sucks because Lucario takes forever to kill snake, and snake is unnaturally good at punishing Lucario's approaches (which may be my fault because of a block against this character, but I agree with Junebug, this match is definitely not fun).
Fox/Zelda rebuttal
Fox seems senselessly scary. Whoever is comparing fox to Zelda needs a scan for cranial tumors. Fox has the speed and leverage to not only force lucario to approach, but punish each option very easily and with good amounts of damage. Fox is actually capable of getting out of Lucario aerial juggles more easily, Zelda's pretty much the equivalent of DK once in Lucario's aerial threshold, she hardly really has a good option of getting out. Not to mention Zelda's much more doable for edgeguarding, and punishing her approaches (SH AD around is like really punishable as are most of her laggy options in the air, which almost never really control the space because of a lack of good pressuring mechanisms). Shame really, because I use Zelda for LT's, she's pretty fun
Pit
I haven't had problems with Pit, it's about even. I find that playing against Pits they often need to use fsmash along with jab in their ground game against Lucario for making more competent spacing, making Bair and the occasional dash attack the main kill moves for Pit. That makes my end significantly easier. Also pit arrows should not really gimp a lucario ever if he's not panicking.
Pit's ledgegame is still pretty dumb against Lucario, last I saw dair works mainly because most aren't frame perfect/good at mixing it up, it's kinda a guessing game at the ledge if the Pit's planking. Haven't played a good Pit since Sagemoon quit (even then a lot of people consider him "eh" in level).
Pit's ledgegame is still pretty dumb against Lucario, last I saw dair works mainly because most aren't frame perfect/good at mixing it up, it's kinda a guessing game at the ledge if the Pit's planking. Haven't played a good Pit since Sagemoon quit (even then a lot of people consider him "eh" in level).
Marth
Trela and to a lesser extent Stauffy showed me how good this MU can be for Lucario, based on their play against some good ones, including Mike. several nice CPs against him, we have an answer to nearly everything he does onstage, and he's fairly meh at killing. What tips it a little to his advantage is that he's such a beast at edgeguarding Lucario especially with Lucario's lame upB. This one's like a concrete 45:55 imo.
When properly planking you are still invincible so it goes throught.yeah but those don't come out Frame four AND go through your Uair
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
@Phil: Im thinking I might want to break out my secondary when you come out to Utah. I second d3 :D
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Haha I play that MU so often, I have two good D3s in my area (used to have like 4 lol) and I run into one in bracket EVERY TIME when I go up to WA, it totally annoys me, especially since I'm pretty aggro in playstyle nowadays.
I pretty much picked up ICs for a while just for that MU lol.
I pretty much picked up ICs for a while just for that MU lol.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Link to
Crazy Finland DDD.
Crazy Finland DDD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvV-IEUmr-g
Random video with him.
He wrecks everyone with pretty much any character. Either he is too good or we just suck too much
Random video with him.
He wrecks everyone with pretty much any character. Either he is too good or we just suck too much
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Ty for link.
Browny
Smash Hater
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Reading a roll from across the stage as Dedede and punishing with grab.
lolztoopro
lolztoopro
Browny
Smash Hater
not funny coz its bad, funny because of the way DDD runs and Snake probably thought it was so obivous the DDD must surely be planning a mixup but nope, he gets him with that 2-second whole stage dash grab lol.
Loota
Smash Journeyman
I haven't had so bad time playing his D3 with Lucario, patience is all that you need although it is quite easy to lose your concentration if something stupid happens >_>
EDIT: Don't know why the link doesn't properly work but skip to 1:04.
EDIT: Don't know why the link doesn't properly work but skip to 1:04.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
I'd just like to point out that I think it's dumb that D3 is the lighter character in this battle >.>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvV-IEUmr-g
Random video with him.
He wrecks everyone with pretty much any character. Either he is too good or we just suck too much
Dark 3nergy
Smash Hero
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I'll be messing around with that DDD AT once im done with my SF training. My only gripe about this AT is that it could be more consistently done with a better buffering system. But w/e its DDD.
It helps somewhat, but not enough to save DDD from mid-tier. Welp
It helps somewhat, but not enough to save DDD from mid-tier. Welp
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Full stage run and he doesn't throw out a jab or a tilt? AFK. That Dedede is garbo. I'm moving to Finland.
Why haven't I seen that before even thought it happened in my house >_>
Ripple
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he's not....>_>
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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This is why I love Phil, so good with explanations, much better than me.
But yeah for Wario, if they play more aggressively it is even, but I do have my doubts if they played to time-out Lucario would do as well in the match-up. I mean if DMG can time out Lucario's on Smashville that says something.
Still it is evenish.
Exactly, the term weight isn't as simple as it seems at first.
Bowser lives to the sides
Dedede lives to the ceiling
DK lives
Snake just never dies
uh weight is a term that should actually be called Knockback Resistence.
It's something like base knockback reduction and factors like horizontal air speed and fast fall/falling speed come together for the whole survivability.
It's something like base knockback reduction and factors like horizontal air speed and fast fall/falling speed come together for the whole survivability.
Trespayne
Smash Apprentice
I'm surprised that R.O.B. is still not higher on the list. I feel like he has a pretty good combination of moves that should make him move up here. He has pretty good kill moves (over smash in particular), great projectiles, one of the better recoveries, and can rack up damage. Can someone tell me why he isn't up a few more spots, I'd like to know.
Coney
Smash Master
low mobility, difficulty killing, mediocre matchup spread, bad matchups with good characters, disappointing camp game
the biggest problem, afaik, is his inability to do ANYTHING after committing to his up-b--making him, essentially, a gigantic moving target.
the biggest problem, afaik, is his inability to do ANYTHING after committing to his up-b--making him, essentially, a gigantic moving target.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
yeah (but it's better than DDDs =p jp)
yeah
these are basically the same thing but
ROB ***** on everyone below him basically, except Peach and Mario are kinda hard, other then that =/
Otherwise, he beats ICs, Goes even with Diddy, Snake and Marth, and small disadvantage to Falco. then he hard loses to DDD.
then there's MK of course, def a disadvantage, but its probably more in the realm of the falco matchup then the DDD Matchup. it's not really -that- bad.
it's not really that bad. gyro ***** because it's soooooo versatile (can be used to **** landings, combo into kills, kill, shieldpoke, charge mindgames, and its good %) and is safe because of low cooldown. lasers are pretty mediocre but they're good when your opponent is offstage.
its only during the first (20 or so? if I had to guess) frames that he can't do anything. after that he can do anything except airdodge. nair covers him pretty well anyway so he doesn't need it. if you're up b-ing when your opponent can hit you in the first ~20 frames, you're doing it wrong. it goes far enough that you don't have to use it while being pressured offstage because you can always make it back. even against MK
Ussi
Smash Legend
Its his inability to airdodge that makes it a easy to hit, he can attack all his wants out of it. Just he just as to recover high to usually avoid trouble.
ninja'd
ninja'd
stingers
Smash Obsessed
only vs. mk does he have to recover high. every other character can't really afford to chase him down there.
Ussi
Smash Legend
You know better than I do. Usually when i fight ROB, he recovers high or to the other ledge (usually other ledge, but some stages can't)
Teh Future
Smash Master
snake always kills off the top so he def dies earlier then d3 in the matchup. not to mention it shouldnt matter because d3 gets AT LEAST 30+% from 1 completely broken bull**** grab.
bowser dies off the sides before quite a few characters because he has horrible momentum canceling. he dies off the top at like 90 from jigglypuff uptilt. bowser is the ****tiest heavyweight ever whhen it comes to living.
rob is terrible. he also looses to every top/high tier character people act like he goes even or beats
bowser dies off the sides before quite a few characters because he has horrible momentum canceling. he dies off the top at like 90 from jigglypuff uptilt. bowser is the ****tiest heavyweight ever whhen it comes to living.
rob is terrible. he also looses to every top/high tier character people act like he goes even or beats
Teh Future
Smash Master
you havent played d3 before LOL
Trespayne
Smash Apprentice
I usually recover with a well timed nair and if they follow me off the stage, that's just there problem. If i'm already hanging on the ledge and they're waiting, I usually drop and fair with good enough spacing to avoid being grabbed, if they shield, bair usually gets me past them and onto the stage. His down smash has got to be one of the fastest moves in the game and it's great to get out of trouble. His over smash is another quick smash that has good killing power.
Is his camping game really that bad? You can do some pretty sweet things with gyro and lasers. I'm not much for camping anyway, but they can be used to help an approach and they're great when an opponent is off the stage.
Is his camping game really that bad? You can do some pretty sweet things with gyro and lasers. I'm not much for camping anyway, but they can be used to help an approach and they're great when an opponent is off the stage.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
d3 is too slow. d3 does better against ROB that recovers high lol...but I haven't played coney, you're right
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Knockback resistance would be the effect of friction happening. Friction has a stronger effect on heavier things. Here on earth, we measure how heavy things are by weight. Therefore I believe it is a fitting name.
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