Official BBR Tier List v5

[Spelt]

You know your character is bad when you're using airdodges to recover.


Also

Each line will be a tier. Characters ARE ordered within the tiers. LGL is not on.

MK
Diddy, Snake
Marth, Wario, IC, Falco, Olimar, GnW
Pikachu, ZSS, DDD, Toon Link, Donkey Kong, Lucario
Pit, Peach, Rob, Zelda/Sheik, Sonic, Yoshi, Sheik, Fox
Kirby, Wolf, Ness, Lucas
Jigglypuff, Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Ike
Captain Falcon, Link
Pokemon Trainer, Ganondorf, Zelda

Note: Zelda/Sheik always assumes that the match is started with the character in the preferable form.

i really, really like this list.

 

[Masterluigi452]

I'd like to see Luigi and C. Falcon go up.

 

[-Vocal-]

This needs elaboration. A little late, but I didn't see it before.

Dash Attack is a very commonly-used move because the start-up is fast and it's safe on block properly spaced. Dash Attack has a great trajectory for gimp set-ups, is good out of shield, etc. There are a ton of uses for Dash Attack, so it's almost always staled by at least a factor of 1.

The base Dash Attack Lock percentages vary by character by more than 5. For instance, Bowser's window (the biggest window, if memory serves) is between 36% and 70%, but Wario's is 44-63. Game and Watch's is 33-51, even. Any fresh Dash Attack landed after 36% on Bowser can start the chain. However, if your dash attack is stale by even 1, the window is bumped up by 2-3% both at the start and end. This means that the first time you land the Dash Attack Lock and start it, the end is automatically extended. Stale Dash Attack locks can last until well over 100% (as an example, it works on Wario for a very very long time, try it on Bridge of Eldin). amd cam be started much later than that 70% number, so the "end" value is somewhat misleading.

However, Dash Attack Locks aren't usually useful more than 3-4 times because it's pretty easy to SDI toward ZSS and escape it. To escape Dash Attack Lock, you have to SDI toward ZSS twice, meaning if she sees you do it once, she can predict whether or not you're going to do it again and buffer a reverse Dash Attack to continue the lock (like Sheik's ftilt lock). Usually you only get to hit them with it 3-4 times anyway, so it doesn't really matter much.

If you are wondering about the exact mechanics of it, there's a video (a little outdated) here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pItF4Sa5NHY and my guide is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235429

This is what I was originally talking about. Thanks for stepping in with the actual data

 

[Poltergust]

You know your character is bad when you're using airdodges to recover.

Isn't this considered a good thing?

EDIT: Incidentally, Yoshi is way too high. Better than Kirby, Pierce?

 

[Spelt]

i'd much rather use an attack that boosts me up and defends against counterattack at the same time. or multijumps.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi has eggs for that. =P

 

[Deleted member]

O...my god.
Plz be trolling plzz

 

[Spelt]

You can't egg toss while airdodging though.

 

[Mr. Miyagi]

Ganon last ? This is bs*

 

[Deleted member]

You can't egg toss while airdodging though.

O...ogod he isnt joking.

The object of recovery is to arrive safely at the stage. The object of recovery is not to do damage, its to avoid as much damage as possible and reset to a neutral position from the worst position in the game, off the stage.

 

[Spelt]

it's easy to hit someone out of an airdodge, especially if it's one of their few options in that situation.
it's harder to hit someone who's recovering with a move that also has a hitbox to defend against ledge guarders.
not to mention most also provide auto ledge snap.

 

[Poltergust]

Like I said, Yoshi has eggs for that. His recovery is perfectly fine.

 

[Deleted member]

it's easy to hit someone out of an airdodge, especially if it's one of their few options in that situation.
it's harder to hit someone who's recovering with a move that also has a hitbox to defend against ledge guarders.
not to mention most also provide auto ledge snap.

...
So your saying that its easy to hit a moving target that has invincibility

OKKK
GJ beating all those top yoshis dude, i bet u just gimped them.

 

[Delta-cod]

Each line will be a tier. Characters ARE ordered within the tiers. LGL is assumed.

MK
Falco, Diddy, Snake
IC, Wario, Marth
Olimar, DDD, Pikachu
ZSS, Fox, Toon Link, Lucario
GnW, Donkey Kong, Zelda/Sheik, Peach
Rob, Shiek, Luigi, Wolf, Kirby, Pit, Sonic
Ike, Ness, Lucas, Bowser, Mario, Captain Falcon, Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer, Samus, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Link
Ganondorf

Each line will be a tier. Characters ARE ordered within the tiers. LGL is not on.

MK
Diddy, Snake
Marth, Wario, IC, Falco, Olimar, GnW
Pikachu, ZSS, DDD, Toon Link, Donkey Kong, Lucario
Pit, Peach, Rob, Zelda/Sheik, Sonic, Yoshi, Sheik, Fox
Kirby, Wolf, Ness, Lucas
Jigglypuff, Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Ike
Captain Falcon, Link
Pokemon Trainer, Ganondorf, Zelda

Note: Zelda/Sheik always assumes that the match is started with the character in the preferable form.

O.o

I think that's the highest I've ever seen Yoshi rated, ever. And the jump is pretty ridiculous, but understandable because Yoshi's planking really runs up the Ledge Grab count.

Also, lol @ the Yoshi has a bad recovery discussion. What is this, 08?

The only times I've ever been gimped are when I REALLY deserved it for being stupid, or by MK. But usually MK just tacks on a lot of damage.

 

[san.]

Only planking Ike can't deal with easily is MK, and even then, he is still pretty decent at covering some options when trying to go back to the stage. So many of Ike's moves can hit someone near the edge that he can force invincible releases from ledges or else they will get hit by an attack from afar once invincibility frames run out.

One of my strategies against many players is to pressure them towards the stage ledge and play from there.

 

[Ripple]

Each line will be a tier. Characters ARE ordered within the tiers. LGL is not on.

MK
Diddy, Snake
Marth, Wario, IC, Falco, Olimar, GnW
Pikachu, ZSS, DDD, Toon Link, Donkey Kong, Lucario
Pit, Peach, Rob, Zelda/Sheik, Sonic, Yoshi, Sheik, Fox
Kirby, Wolf, Ness, Lucas
Jigglypuff, Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Ike
Captain Falcon, Link
Pokemon Trainer, Ganondorf, Zelda

Note: Zelda/Sheik always assumes that the match is started with the character in the preferable form.

wut?

10 wuts

 

[Spelt]

...
So your saying that its easy to hit a moving target that has invincibility

yes because air dodge is 100% invincible. gotcha.

OKKK
GJ beating all those top yoshis dude, i bet u just gimped them.

top yoshis? lol.

 

[makoforce]

why dont they move luigi up?

 

[Robfox]

If Zelda/Shiek gets a spot PT should have 4 different placements.
Each character has their own priority, metagame, etc etc.
Why is that such a big deal?

 

[Life]

Forced switches are forced.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think he loses to Fox 55-45, and Falco 6-4. Unsure about Wolf MU.

imo these are flipped ratio-wise. Fox takes away a lot of Lucario's advantages that are normally apparent against Falco (relatively edgeguardable, close up game Lucario has some definite capability in choosing options, and lucario's fullhop game is fairly good fighting falco) and turns them on their head, Fox is hard to take advantage of vertically, still forces a very annoying zone to penetrate that gets chewed out by good fox option use, and Fox has a far better time killing lucario, not to mention lucario has a hard time getting any damage on Fox offstage or when he's on the ledge. Wolf's probably evenish too or closer to 55:45 Wolf's favor.

I feel like with the two characters being hopeless at approaching, Ganon's options are slightly better than Zelda's in terms of dealing with planking. Not by much though. Also, Pit was intended to be at the top of that tier and I have moved him to represent this.

Was going to argue these, but the bottom statement:

I might switch Ganon and Zelda after considering Din's Fire a bit more.

pretty much said it for me, although both are pretty eh lol.

I feel as though Sonic is a character adept at getting the lead and holding it without or without the ledge, and that his recovery is well suited to make attempts at combating planking, so it affects him less.

Agreed

 

[Deleted member]

yes because air dodge is 100% invincible. gotcha.



top yoshis? lol.

.
I'm not even arguing something like yoshi is good, etc etc, but it is common knowledge that yoshi has a safe recovery (a few characters like MK can rack up damage but should never gimp).

Yoshi is invincible while he is rising, id say thats pretty decent.

Once hes on the stage obviously hes not invincible, but at that point he is safe from gimps. Id much rather be on the stage than the ledge with most characters.

 

[Spelt]

If he hasn't touched the ground yet he's still vulnerable to being gimped.

 

[Red Arremer]

If Zelda/Shiek gets a spot PT should have 4 different placements.
Each character has their own priority, metagame, etc etc.
Why is that such a big deal?

Because PT has the forced switch. If you die, you WILL use a different pokemon, if you want or not. Zelda doesn't have it, though. So you can rank Zelda, Sheik and the combination well, but with PT you can't, because as soon as you die as one Pokemon, you switch to the next one.

 

[*JuriHan*]

I think this is one of the best tier lists you guys came up with. I'm surprised Kirby rised (although not by much) he has some bad MUs against a lot of tourny viable characters like Snake and Ice Climbers and major issues dealing with the combination of not being able to handle camping/ no safe approaches but I guess Chu (and others? ) have been repin so good for them. Also I suppose the characters beneath him have even bigger problems, so it makes sense.

I heard some people wanted Jigglypuff higher.... that's really interesting but I think she's fine where she is honestly. Combination of struggling to kill + lack of reliable combos + lightest character + crap MUs+ crap hitboxes/range + outclassed by mk, wario, kirbz should keep her fairly low honestly.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think this is one of the best tier lists you guys came up with. I'm surprised Kirby rised

Yeah, Kirby definitely "rised" a bit.

I know this is an internet forum but it seriously requires more effort to type "rised" instead of rose.

It's like those people who write "tyme" instead of time. It's not even an abbreviation.

 

[.Marik]

Yeah, Kirby definitely "rised" a bit.

I know this is an internet forum but it seriously requires more effort to type "rised" instead of rose.

It's like those people who write "tyme" instead of time. It's not even an abbreviation.

Stop having a hissy fit over pointless semantics.

Her post had one incorrect example of past tense usage. Doesn't really matter.

 

[Delta-cod]

If he hasn't touched the ground yet he's still vulnerable to being gimped.

Yeah, those 2 or 3 frames you have to punish us before we land as we fly past you with our highest air speed in the game, while being invincible, is incredibly significant and will cause us to be gimped every time.

Yup.

 

[Robfox]

Because PT has the forced switch. If you die, you WILL use a different pokemon, if you want or not. Zelda doesn't have it, though. So you can rank Zelda, Sheik and the combination well, but with PT you can't, because as soon as you die as one Pokemon, you switch to the next one.

But dont some Wiis have the self character roster?
Like charizard has his own spot on the selection screen.
Is that not taken into consideration @ all?

 

[Spelt]

Stop having a hissy fit over pointless semantics.

Her post had one incorrect example of past tense usage. Doesn't really matter.

He probably just posted it so he could rised his post count.

Yeah, those 2 or 3 frames you have to punish us before we land as we fly past you with our highest air speed in the game, while being invincible, is incredibly significant and will cause us to be gimped every time.

Yup.

Glad we see eye to eye.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I wonder if people will finally realize how absolutely annoying TL can be to get into High Tier...or how good looking Chu is to get Kirby into High Tier.

Though, I can definitely see one or both of those characters moving up next list, but only with some much-needed rep (especially for Kirby).

 

[Life]

But dont some Wiis have the self character roster?
Like charizard has his own spot on the selection screen.
Is that not taken into consideration @ all?

Squirtle/Ivy/Charizard have the same selection method as Shiek/Zelda.

Again, the main thing is forced switches = you HAVE to use all of the Poke's (unless you're amazing and threestock the opponent within two minutes).

IDK if it would be the case with 1-stock rules tho...

 

[vVv Rapture]

Squirtle/Ivy/Charizard have the same selection method as Shiek/Zelda.

Again, the main thing is forced switches = you HAVE to use all of the Poke's (unless you're amazing and threestock the opponent within two minutes).

IDK if it would be the case with 1-stock rules tho...

Well, no it wouldn't. The game only forces you to switch when you die, so if it is on one-stock, you cannot come back after losing a stock, thus not being forced to switch during the match.

But we don't play with those rules.

The only possible way to play with one Pokemon and one Pokemon only with forced switches would be to have your opponent let you switch back to the Pokemon you're using after you've been KO'd...or possibly just, after a death, never attacking the opponent and just switching twice immediately.

Neither are good...or existent options.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yeah, Kirby definitely "rised" a bit.

I know this is an internet forum but it seriously requires more effort to type "rised" instead of rose.

It's like those people who write "tyme" instead of time. It's not even an abbreviation.

I know right? I hate that shiz, internet lingo is supposed to be shortened but than people add like 3 letters to something just to spell it wrong, specifically because its the internet...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I'm just now seeing the new tier list in its final form...

...And everyone is pissed about PT. Sorry for making him mid tier, I guess.

I've been playing a lot of other characters lately as well as PT; mostly Kirby and Donkey Kong. We'll see what happens.

It makes me angry; I see potential, but I'm just not good enough to reach what I see.

Regardless, I don't know if I'm just some sort of M2K-level genius with a bad character or if I'm just a gimmick after all.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So I'm just now seeing the new tier list in its final form...

...And everyone is pissed about PT. Sorry for making him mid tier, I guess.

I've been playing a lot of other characters lately as well as PT; mostly Kirby and Donkey Kong. We'll see what happens.

It makes me angry; I see potential, but I'm just not good enough to reach what I see.

Regardless, I don't know if I'm just some sort of M2K-level genius with a bad character or if I'm just a gimmick after all.

Well I don't think you're a gimmick. If you were you wouldn't have been considered one the top Wario's. You should of course go back to Wario. Also I don't think that the reason PT went down was because you were bad however, because of the large gap between your placings and the 2nd best placing yetttttttttttt the placings of TKD were enough to warrant fox moving up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

name 2 PTs other than reflex

I say steeler and t block.
Steeler hasnt done much aside from be a personality on the boards at all. and I only know t block as a TO, not as a highly skilled player. ( he may be, but thats not how I know him.

name 2 foxs other than TKD

I say zeton and NAKAT.

both are known as highly skilled players in their respective region, and have had consistent tourney placings. and notable accomplishments.

Thats the difference between fox and PT.

 

[deepseadiva]

I wonder if people will finally realize how absolutely annoying TL can be to get into High Tier...or how good looking Chu is to get Kirby into High Tier.

Chu is decidedly slightly above average.

Though maybe if he changed his terrible hair.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

So I'm just now seeing the new tier list in its final form...

...And everyone is pissed about PT. Sorry for making him mid tier, I guess.

I've been playing a lot of other characters lately as well as PT; mostly Kirby and Donkey Kong. We'll see what happens.

It makes me angry; I see potential, but I'm just not good enough to reach what I see.

Regardless, I don't know if I'm just some sort of M2K-level genius with a bad character or if I'm just a gimmick after all.

Nah, your a genius Reflex. Quit playing. You almost beat M2K @ Fast1. Those videos were the best I had ever seen @ the time!

Maybe you lost yourself and forgot how you played that made you place so well?

 

[Yikarur]

unfortunately Yoshis airdodge is really bad, he's recovery could be even better but that's not the case =(

and I want to see thoose Reflex vs. M2K Videos o: