Official BBR Tier List v5

[Ripple]

I would like to take lessons from people on arguing. I strawman unintentionally all the time, until they are super specific or I work my answer in 1 sentence to make sure I don't strawman

 

[Raziek]

The easiest way to not strawman is this:

When you finish writing your post, ask yourself the following questions:

1) Did I directly answer any questions he had for me?
2) Did I reply to ALL points, or just some of them?
3) Did I make any assumptions about his argument that weren't otherwise clearly stated?
4) Did I get off-topic at any point?

If you answered No to questions 1 or 2, or Yes to questions 3 or 4, you've probably strawmanned somewhere.

 

[Spelt]

I'm generally just bad at arguing.

The easiest way to not strawman is this:

When you finish writing your post, ask yourself the following questions:

1) Did I directly answer any questions he had for me?
2) Did I reply to ALL points, or just some of them?
3) Did I make any assumptions about his argument that weren't otherwise clearly stated?
4) Did I get off-topic at any point?

If you answered No to questions 1 or 2, or Yes to questions 3 or 4, you've probably strawmanned somewhere.

It's like, almost impossible to not strawman then.

 

[etecoon]

I strawman intentionally

and most of that criteria is inaccurate...3 is the only one that actually applies

 

[san.]

What has been Marth's national tournament representation lately? From what I recall, I don't remember Marth having any tournament presence in the US at nationals for months.

 

[Raziek]

Like I said, he hasn't really had much besides Mike.

Which again draws us back to the idea that our tierlist isn't based solely on results.

*shrugs* I can't concretely explain why the other Marths aren't making it to tournies. (Or losing at them) All I can do is guess.

Not really.

3 causes direct strawmanning, 1, 2, and 4 cause indirect strawmanning.

If you only answered 1/4 of my argument, like Browny did, that's still a strawman, since the literal definition of a strawman is attacking a weakened/altered version of your opponents original argument as if it were the original itself.

Edit: Wow, not sure how that ended up a double post, but this one is @etecoon.

 

[da K.I.D.]

ripple/john numbers' thread says that the biggest thing marth has done pretty much this entire year, is be a third or 4th character or something for ally at one of the nationals he went to. and if you take him out of the equation, the next highest money earner is kadaj, so i dont even see why neo or mikehaze were brought into this conversation to begin with.

 

[Ripple]

mike hasn't attended anything in 3 months. if he has, he never won money

 

[Raziek]

I was speaking primarily from memory on who I know usually represents the character. I don't creep Mike to see if he's going to tournaments, I just know that Mike is usually placing well, and I know that Neo is now back, thanks to our social thread.

@Kid: I also wasn't speaking specifically regarding this year only, more in general.

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, when the money data I'm collecting matures, aka after 3 to 6 more months, I'll release the amount of money each player has won for their characters so you can interpret that data and stuff.

Also, Marth currently has a REALLY LOW money won/usage ratio, compared to the rest of the cast.

Also, and this is out of nowhere, but do people agree that even though Brawl is unbalanced, it would be significantly less unbalanced w/o MK in it?

 

[Tesh]

Only if you remove MK AND DDD!

 

[da K.I.D.]

Also, and this is out of nowhere, but do people agree that even though Brawl is unbalanced, it would be significantly less unbalanced w/o MK in it?

Wholeheartedly agree

 

[Ripple]

Only if you remove MK AND DDD!

D3 would not be OP if you took out MK. he gets wrecked by falco, IC's, pikachu, ZSS, and debatably olimar

 

[TP]

Everyone gets wrecked by debatably Olimar.

 

[Ghostbone]

Also, and this is out of nowhere, but do people agree that even though Brawl is unbalanced, it would be significantly less unbalanced w/o MK in it?

Definitely

 

[adumbrodeus]

Definitely

Which is why the MBR had the courage to ban MK.

 

[Tagxy]

I dont think Brawl is that unbalanced. MK is the only stand out character, maybe diddy. Also WC doesnt really report results on smashboards.

Consistency in "level of amazingness" isn't that important in a character's placement on the tier list, unless nothing has changed in their metagame. The tier list is supposed to be a representation of the CURRENT metagame. Thus, having multiple players being successful IS important. Anther wrecking people in '08 doesn't mean anything to a 2011 tier list.

Right now both Marth and Pikachu really only have one champion each. I'll grant that Pikachu's has performed better than Marth's at nationals, but they're both difficult to draw a specific line on due to only having one major player right now.

Consistency is important for outliers. For Pikachu specifically, he's performed solidly better then those a couple spots above him for quite some time, but his tournament performance was downplayed because anther was an outlier. But by now if three years and a dozen national placements among three different players hasnt established that national success with pikachu is not an outlier, then the standards are unusually high. My main point is that saying Marth and pikachu have one dominant player right now is not quite the same thing, since pikachu has a resume of outstanding performances.

Olimar is more reasonable to argue for here, I agree. PS is.... Pyronic Star? I haven't heard anything from him lately. Brood's also a rather isolated incident. If some of the European Marths came over and bodied some people, would we all **** our pants? Maybe, but that's not something we can stake a huge claim on.

Further issue lies in how you would have to re-arrange that tier. You'd have to make a case for them to pass ALL three of those characters, and I'd find that quite difficult to justify, personally.

PS made it to pro bracket at MLG Dallas and placed well at WHOBO (not sure if top 8). And Id certainly include any European marth mains successes were they to come and do well in the US, although I agree its not a huge claim for Brood but just something to add to other successes. The one thing Id say about olimar vs pikachu is that olimar's best players havent been as consistent as Pika's, but there certainly are more of them currently. Given how both succeed I see oli and pika right next to each other either way.

As for your last point, I dont think it should make a difference whether its one or three characters. If anything I think the fact that it is likely to be two characters jumping three or none at all shows the strain/pressure that currently exists between results and their current placement. However I do agree that a tier list is more then just results.

I agree with both of these issues with the ranking system, but that's not exactly something I have a lot of control over.

Yeah I just wanted to make note of it, as well as put emphasis on tournament result analysis coming from high level play vs monetary earnings (not that the stat isnt useful for those doing the work!)

Sure thing. This is most easily displayed by simply looking at their match-ups, and how common those characters are.

[snip]

When all is said and done, I ask myself this question: Do Pikachu and Olimar perform better against those ABOVE the characters they're trying to rise above?

Olimar has his -2 to Falco, -1 with Marth and ICs, and even with Wario and Diddy. His performance against MK and Snake is similar to all of those characters, so I don't think that justifies any movement above them.

Pikachu is -2 to Olimar, whom he's competing against, -1 to Marth and Wario, who he's trying to pass, -1 with Diddy, even with MK and ICs, and has the niche hard counter on Falco.

When you look at the big picture, neither Pikachu nor Olimar do better than Wario, Marth or ICs when facing the top 4, and they also BOTH lose to Marth, and either lose or go even with Wario and ICs.

Tl; DR: At best, I think you could justify them passing ICs. Losing to Marth while not performing better against those above him doesn't justify passing him or Wario.

Thank you for elaborating. I can understand this argument from a MU perspective, although I still believe the MU spread differences for A tier + Pikachu and Olimar are so negligible, that placements for everyone becomes difficult once you consider results.

There is one point I wanted to go into though (which I bolded). Just to get this out of the way first, even though there might be disagreement on "MK has no evens"/"Pika goes even with marth" Im going to assume (as it seems you have) that the MU chart is correct or at least extremely close.

Taking a quick look at Wario, Marths, ICs, Olis, and Pikas top 4 MUs we see:

Wario: 1 advantage 2 evens 1 disadvantage
Marth: 1 advantage 1 evens 2 disadvantage
ICs: 1 advantage 0 evens 3 disadvantage
Olimar: 1 advantage 1 evens 2 disadvantage
Pika: 2 advantage 1 evens 1 disadvantage

I suppose olimar does do about the same as those above him, but simply judging all top 4 MU's evenly pika has a jump compared to the rest. But then you consider that Pikachus even MU is MK and one of his advantages is Snake, the two most common and successful characters in brawl, giving pikachu a clear boost in his MUs against the top 4 vs the rest of this group.

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Also, and this is out of nowhere, but do people agree that even though Brawl is unbalanced, it would be significantly less unbalanced w/o MK in it?

Couldn't agree more.

 

[John12346]

Oh, Tagxy, I have some interesting information, then. One of the few side projects I've been keeping track of in Ripple's thread.

MK has 120 different users who have placed in the money. No other character even has HALF that many users placing in the money. Snake is in second, with 50 users, and everyone below him has even less.

This data alone should help alleviate some of the inherent flaws of just keeping track of money won by each character, right?

 

[Browny]

bla bla strawman this strawman that

heres one for you

If more people used Donkey Kong, he would be higher since he would have better tourney results.

OMG DONT BRING UP THE FACT THAT DDD RENDERS DK INVALID, THATS STRAWMANNING I DIDNT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT DK, HIS MATCHUP VS DDD IS IRRELEVANT. so sick of this **** rofl. all people do is make massive implications with their posts (hurr durr marth would have better results if mk didnt exist) and then resort to that strawman excuse when they get called out for citing an impossible, hypothetical scenario which has NO relevance to the metagame in 2011 as a reason to why a character is SUPPOSEDLY as good as they think.

But hey, I can do this all day you dont see any other character mains johning about the fact that their good players now main MK olol

 

[Spelt]

except, there's 2 easy points that disregard that argument.

1.

2. that will never happen.

 

[Z'zgashi]

This game would be far more balanced if we just took out Sakurai.

Get it, balance? Tripping?

 

[Spelt]

Obviously that my little pony sense of humor is rubbing off on you.

 

[Zajice]

More like Regular Show humor.


And now we all mad.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Another opinion (in my opinion it's way more accurate than the other ones i've done

TOP
S: /

HIGH
A:
B:

MID
C: /
D:
E:

LOW
F:
G:

You forgot . in the tier list . Not accurate at all if you don't include every character. And Fox isn't high tier. Get out of here.

This game would be far more balanced if we just took out Sakurai.

Get it, balance? Tripping?

Lol........

Obviously that my little pony sense of humor is rubbing off on you.

LOL.

 

[Conviction]

More like Regular Show humor.


And now we all mad.

Regular Show humor is better. Get out

 

[Zajice]

You probably think Adventure Time is good too.

 

[Conviction]

You probably think Adventure Time is good too.

Says the MLP person...

but no I don't lol

 

[Z'zgashi]

I like how people hate on ponies when they've never even seen it.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Where are you seeing this, Tarmogoyf? I'm looking at John's data, and his (% of each dollar won) indicates that while he is underperforming Wario and ICs somewhat, he's still above both Pikachu and Olimar.

I mis-stated this. I meant that Marth underpreforms ICs/Wario , and I feel that he does with Oli/pika, due to a lack of national presence since mike fell off the radar, and that the trends showed up until recently, he was winning less than them. Oli/pika vs marth is more my feelings than anything though.

Also, serious question for people: How relevant is a "Champion" for a character? Do champoins hurt/help them? (AKA, it's not pika/oli putting up results, it's Esam/Rich Brown) As an example:

Pika and Esam: Clear, obvious, Esam is the only one pumping out results, but they are top-tier results.

ICs: They lack a champion, yet have multiple players doing something for them (Vinnie, Atomsk, Ally), and tend to post slightly worse results than pika at nationals, yet have more overall success.

 

[Spelt]

I like how people hate on ponies when they've never even seen it.

I like how people automatically assume haters of MLP have never seen the show when they have no proof whatsoever of it.
Because obviously the only way you can hate something is never experiencing it amirite?!?!!?!?!

 

[Zajice]

I like how people like Regular Show and Adventure Time even though they've never seen it.

 

[Browny]

I like how cartoons I enjoy dont have ponies in them

 

[Z'zgashi]

I like how people automatically assume haters of MLP have never seen the show when they have no proof whatsoever of it.
Because obviously the only way you can hate something is never experiencing it amirite?!?!!?!?!

I like how you go out of your way to hate and then make up reasons for why your hate was justified.

Not to mention you brought up MLP just to hate. I didn't even say anything about it and now the threads off topic. Good job.

@tarm: Imo, its more of a Wario/Marth/ICs/Oli/Pika thing now. Oli and pika have shown that they have what it takes to fight in the big leauges while wario, ICs, and marth were already making a tourney presence. Obviously, marth has dropped off a bit lately, which would put him at the back of the pack, but he's on a higher level than D3, GnW, and the others trailing him for sure.

 

[Conviction]

I like how people hate on ponies when they've never even seen it.

Well I don't fall under that

I like how people automatically assume haters of MLP have never seen the show when they have no proof whatsoever of it.
Because obviously the only way you can hate something is never experiencing it amirite?!?!!?!?!

this

I like how people like Regular Show and Adventure Time even though they've never seen it.

What?

I like how cartoons I enjoy dont have ponies in them

This also.

 

[Spelt]

I like how you go out of your way to hate

I try.

and then make up reasons for why your hate was justified.

as long as we're telling lies here i'd just like to point out how awesome my little pony is, and it's definitely worth the time if anyone is interested in it.

Not to mention you brought up MLP just to hate.

-captain obvious image-

I didn't even say anything about it and now the threads off topic.

I like how people hate on ponies when they've never even seen it.

Good job.

Thanks!

 

[Tagxy]

People might go overboard on the pony stuff, but the show itself is really good. I dont think anyone with a heart could dislike fluttershy.

 

[IsmaR]

I like how people hating children's shows takes priority over discussion pertaining to a children's party game.

ICs lacking a champion shouldn't hinder their placings/them though, if there are as many people doing something for them as stated. <3 Smoom

 

[VibeSlyph]

I like how there's a legitimate cartoon discussion going on in a tier list discussion thread.

But in all seriousness, I've seen ponies and it's pretty terrible.

 

[Zajice]

Yeah I hate Ponies as much as I hate Adventure Time and Regular Show.