Official BBR Tier List v5

[da K.I.D.]

real quick, doesnt mk hold wario in the air when he grabs him? thus getting the air release?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

real quick, doesnt mk hold wario in the air when he grabs him? thus getting the air release?

Only if he grabs Wario out of the air or Wario presses a jump button while breaking out. Generally speaking, no, because the Wario would probably be airdodging to the ground.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To reflex: I agree. There isn't really much I can say against it. I just wanna say though, if MK dair camps in a netural position, than you can aircamp as well, can't you? If it's even, no need to rush. You can wait for him to get a little off or something. Especially if there are platforms.

And, your post kinda agreed with the statement, it's not even, but close. You also think it's 55:45?

I suppose it's possible, but things like Tornado make it difficult to abuse. It's about even when Wario has a decent lead and Meta Knight has to chase, but Meta Knight usually has the lead, I guess 45-55 is acceptable as it is, though I wonder if the Meta Knights I played simply weren't defensive enough.

 

[Pikabunz]

Doesn't it have to be a pivot grab out of the air? lol

 

[Mr.-0]

Yay, i came to an agreement with Reflex!
I am so Awesome!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doesn't it have to be a pivot grab out of the air? lol

Maybe it does; I'm not sure. Then again, Meta Knight may as well be pivot grabbing my attacks.

 

[Coney]

as someone who picked up wario to do better against MK, and then subsequently dropped him, i can say wario loses the matchup for sure to an MK that knows what he's doing

but he shares qualities of mk's near-even matchups in that he's very, very good at putting MK in really, really scary spots

 

[DMG]

fair nuff

same question for wario--hasn't done anything in a while, prolly has better top tier MUs than olimar, why's he not around more?

same reason?

Wario doesn't have players that travel. That's the main reason I can think of. Out of Me, Malcolm, Bassem, Fiction (does he play anymore?), Gluttony, Hungr, Blue Rogue, Masky, etc. How many of the people I named have traveled coast to coast for big tournaments? I mean you had a TON of Wario players for Genesis, but besides that tournament you tend to have whatever Wario's are present in the region.

He's not a bad character, and he definitely has better matchups than Olimar, but you just don't see him as much anymore with a lot of his players either retired or only active in their respective regions.

I think so, yeah.

Don't worry, though--I've got it covered now.

Wario's easy to use IMO, but it's hard to condition yourself to play him the right way. You have to have a LOT of restraint as a Wario player, and that's not always easy to abide by when playing him.

Wario has a million good players. His worst match-up is MK, and beyond camping in the air, he has problems, like having high risk:high reward kill options (they either have high start up lag, or high end lag, usually).

Also, fart is awesome.

Wario is probably a little overrated.

I'd flip that. Wario's underrated, but he has nowhere to rise. As gay as the character can be, he just won't be better than the top 4 in this game unless something big is discovered negatively against one of them. Like if down the road we learn new CG's across the cast on Falco, or a huge banana flaw against Diddy, then yeah I could see him over the character that drops. But I doubt that will happen.

At one time, the Wario:MK matchup was the hottest thing in brawl because people thought it was 50:50. I don't think Wario has a disadvantaged matchup on MK, and I don't think he's underrated. Since I'm going to get a million STFU you don't know **** comments, I'm doing research and compyling some data for a big post.

You want some data? Ok. Do you know how many of MK's move beat Wario when he simply tries to jump from a neutral position? Do you know about the frame traps he has in the air against Wario? Or how Dtilt is safe on shield unless you are so close we can shield grab you? Or how Wario cannot punish retreated Tornado on shield unless he uses DACUS (which MK can SDI and Dair/Nair him)?

I'll await your big post of Data. If it doesn't look correct, I'll go back and recompile a list of Frame Disadvantages and maybe hitbox data for both characters and let that sink in a bit.

mr. 0 might just be my favorite poster on smashboards right now.

and its not in a douchy way like, 'lolz, i like to have teh laughs at his magor stupidz'

I legitamate like him a lot as a poster.



that being said, wario.

wario is really good. but trying to avoid getting grab gayed is hard as balls and when it does happen, its super demoralizing. so hes very taxing mentally to play.

and you know the golden rule of brawl, Why make it hard on yourself when you can just play metaknight.

Wario's not that feasible of a character to play unless you are willing to play gay, or at the very least play more patiently. The reason is because Wario's matchups really aren't that strong when played aggressively. Wario vs Falco/IC's/MK/Dedede/TL/G&W/etc are simply not matchups you can waltz in and be like "Yo Im Wario Im bout to Dair that **** and Waft you all day son". And then people go "Dang playing Wario is hard" and I'm like well duh you're making this so much harder on yourself by playing like that.

Wario definitely has kill power, but in a Lucas sort of way, where the moves hit hard and do their job, but either leave you wide open or take forever to start.

Also, by a little underrated, I mean it's hard to see a character who hasn't placed at like anything in the US in like forever as "top tier" as he is currently placed. Wario just isn't relevant right now. That doesn't mean I think he's bad. Wario has amazing mix-up potential and is really hard to even hit for certain characters, lol.

And fart still rocks.

His kill moves are pretty darn fast. Fart? Uair? Fsmash? Those come out in 12 or less frames, besides Uair if you are talking about the time it takes to get off the ground from a jump, but even then it's still fast.

The problem with Wario is not his killing. He's pretty reliable and flexible at killing. His problem is approaching a lot of the cast reliably. He's a character you have to get into your opponents head and trick them. You can't constantly pressure their shield with range or projectiles. Approaching a Falco or Snake or Diddy with Wario requires a LOT of thought and planning, and that's what turns most people away from Wario.

Well, for starters, Wario trumps MK in the air if played smart. His air dodge beats all of MK's aerials, and Wario's air speed and this allows him to literally dance around MK if you space well. Wario has okay approach options, and because MK has no aerials, yet Wario has his wheels, MK has to approach. If he tornadoes, it's punish city for you. If he uair bairs, it's also easy to beat down his approach. If he fair approaches, you can airdodge and then bair/fair. You can also time a fair to beat his when his ends. Also, MK dies from a HALF fart at 65%. GET PWNED. Mk also has a hard time killing MK, as his aerial safety and good air moves makes him hard to gimp. And, wario's dtilt beats MK's. Wario's uair also kills MK before 100%, and it also beats the flide attack, and Wario's dair can also beat out shuttle loop (somehow) if timed correctly. Wario's bair also beats MK's uair and dair if you space and time it correctly. Also, MK has no grab craps against Wario. Wario also has several really good KO moves against MK, and he is also very good at racking up damage and zoning MK. Also, MK only really has evened out the MU because he can really rack up damage really fast. Don't challenge the credibility of these statements, btw. They were taken straight from the MK MU discussion, only reworded.

Also, Da KID, why do you like me as a poster? I'm sorta curious. My first informative post in a long while, and it's not even really mine.

Edit: I, however, do think the MU is 55:45 MK. But still, that's pretty close, so yeah. But that and Marth, are, imo, Wario's only bad MU's or evem MU's. So, also, Wario has really good MU's to keep his position or bring it up even.

Your post is so wrong, where do I begin?

Wario trumps MK in the air? In what ways? Wario has stronger kill moves, and his attacks overall do more damage than MK's attacks, but MK definitely has more range, speed, and better frame advantage/disadvantage on shield. He also tends to have noticeably less lag on his attacks: I can Uair and be in lag for more than 20 frames with no hitbox out. MK can Uair 2 times, or do an Uair and a Nair by that time.


His air speed does not allow him to dance around MK. This is because of the angles MK covers in the air, as well as his ground speed. MK is also not forced to approach Wario unless Wario has the lead. Tires don't change much in that matchup... They dissipate on shield, you can catch them, etc.


Tornado is actually harder to punish for Wario than people understand. A lot of times I get the response "Well Dair always goes through Tornado" even though Dair going through Tornado is based on both when you start Dair and whether you are coming at it from directly above or not. Even then, I've had Dairs that came straight down to Tornado clank with each hit or be swept up entirely. Besides Dair and Fart, he has no moves that reliably go through Tornado. Other moves that CAN go through tend to be based off poor Tornado spacing: Fsmash for example can go through Tornado if MK is dipped really low and you super armor a hit. Ftilt can go through as well if they are not a bit off the ground. Utilt seems to be based on timing.


MK's Dtilt beats out Wario's arsenal of moves. Unless you super armor it with Fsmash and are at a range to hit with it, or unless you can shield grab it, you have nothing that comes close to beating it. Not Dtilt, Fart, standard grab, nothing.


The main reason this matchup would even be close to considered even is the difference in killing. A bad Tornado, or a sloppy Dair when falling, and bam you get farted on is literally the single thing of that matchup that makes anyone even consider it being even. Even WITH that, the matchup is not that fun. You have to deal with a severe range and speed difference, while not having reliable OOS options for spaced moves and not having guaranteed setups (Besides low % Uair or Dair combos). He has no outstanding attributes or abuses against MK like a grab release or something similar, etc. Calling even would be quite the stretch.

Believe me, it's far from even...

About 40-60 if Meta Knight is actively trying to camp you. He's probably winning.

Some stages it definitely turns worse against Wario. Overall something like 6:4 or 65:35. He's lucky it's not a hard counter, but it's close.

If only DMG could namesearch his way into here. He'd give you the ENTIRE MK:Wario MU.

DMG is my name, but I don't name search. Actually you can't namesearch 3 letter words anymore apparently. The * trick doesn't work anymore. Either way, I never used it much because I have a ton of thread subscriptions and that usually keeps me up to date.

 

[Ussi]

and regarding SDI, i would much like some1 to link me a vid of socal consistently punishing TKD's fair on hit, which is just one of the examples of omg SDI > all

... i can show you Mr. Doom vs Zeton

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1qr2j-do2I&feature=related

 

[Tesh]

I'm sure if you look at high level Ganon V Fox vids you will see that kind of thing all match. Its the type of thing Ganondorf mains just HAVE to learn to get a hit in.

 

[Spelt]

As an aside, some videos may have been saved from the last tournament I went to. When those get critiqued, I may have more to work with.

What tournament is this? I would like to watch them.

... i can show you Mr. Doom vs Zeton

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1qr2j-do2I&feature=related

This was kind of painful to watch.




About Wario: I think tires are underrated. Not severely underrated, I know you can SDI them and take away most of the strings/followups wario has against them but they're still a good pressure/spacing tool and provide a lot of mixup options.


Also, how many frames of hitlag do MK's bair and fair have? Actual question, but you can probably tell where I want to go with this.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What tournament is this? I would like to watch them.

G6 monthly in North Carolina. I played Stingers' ROB, BigLou's Diddy Kong/Meta Knight, and Kismet's Falco/Meta Knight.

 

[DMG]

It's possible to SDI Bair and Fair noticeably. Like start out in front of MK, SDI behind him. Depending on your %, you can try to punish him for it. The reason being that after mediumish %, you are stuck in lag for long enough to not really be able to punish him. It also kinda depends on where he does the move and whether he is rising or falling. It's entirely possible to SDI behind him or completely out of it, but punishment opportunities vary quite a bit from character to character, and scenario to scenario.

I think his attacks have... 3-4 frames? Im thinking 3 frames. Getting 2-3 SDI inputs from his Fair usually guarantees you get out, and I doubt I'm getting an input every single available frame although for a quick "burst" type of move like that maybe so.

 

[Spelt]

G6 monthly in North Carolina. I played Stingers' ROB, BigLou's Diddy Kong/Meta Knight, and Kismet's Falco/Meta Knight.

Thanks.
I especially hope the diddy kong match was uploaded, because I love the wario vs diddy matchup.

It's possible to SDI Bair and Fair noticeably. Like start out in front of MK, SDI behind him. Depending on your %, you can try to punish him for it. The reason being that after mediumish %, you are stuck in lag for long enough to not really be able to punish him. It also kinda depends on where he does the move and whether he is rising or falling. It's entirely possible to SDI behind him or completely out of it, but punishment opportunities vary quite a bit from character to character, and scenario to scenario.

I think his attacks have... 3-4 frames? Im thinking 3 frames. Getting 2-3 SDI inputs from his Fair usually guarantees you get out, and I doubt I'm getting an input every single available frame although for a quick "burst" type of move like that maybe so.

And, thanks for this, too!
Punishment opportunities are nice, but I was also just thinking about how you could put yourself in a better position, and behind meta knight in the air is definitely a better position, as long as you aren't close to the ground. His only reliable options would be bair, dair, or up b. Tornado only if he's close-ish to the ground, and if he's right above it he can land and turn around ftilt/dtilt.

 

[Psychoace]

DMG is my name, but I don't name search. Actually you can't namesearch 3 letter words anymore apparently. The * trick doesn't work anymore. Either way, I never used it much because I have a ton of thread subscriptions and that usually keeps me up to date.

control f son.

 

[DMG]

I don't like that either.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Regardless of if it's justified, it's ****ing pointless and stupid to make a tier list based on a ruleset that no one uses. There's NO reason to make a tier list that represents a metagame that NO ONE plays.

Hmm gee, lets see, why would the SBR making a tierlist based around the LGL be bad?
Oh gee, LET ME THINK, IT MUST BE BECAUSE OF THE RULESET THAT WE RELEASED HAD NO LGL!


It would be a massive contradiction if the SBR tierlist, presumed a ledge grab limit (STOP GRABBING THE LEDGE SO MUCH GOD!) was present, while the SBR ruleset suggest no ledge grab limit.

Heck the reasons for no LGL was stated within the ruleset IIRC.

 

[Laem]

i have shadowlink on ignore but every now n then view post just gives your morning that extra sunshine
truly ridiculous.

 

[sandwhale]

So you made a tier list based on a stupid ruleset instead of the current metagame...

 

[DMG]

Reverse it

Most of the tier list was based on the current metagame instead of our ruleset.

 

[Yikarur]

Reverse it

Most of the tier list was based on the current metagame instead of our ruleset.

but the ShadowLink claimed the opposite.

 

[DMG]

I'll go over this 1 more time, then I'm gonna go fap to something GOOD.

1. SBR ruleset says no LGL right? Ok.

2. When forming the tier list, we asked whether to go off a LGL or non LGL based metagame. Both kinds of lists were accepted. The majority of them WERE LGL based metagame lists.

3. Hence I come out here and tell you "The tier list was predominantly based off a LGL metagame"

The End. Now Im gonna go play Paper Mario and watch girls on Webcams do some *awesome* things.

 

[Yikarur]

have fun o:

 

[DMG]

BBR: Setting a Higher Standard for Fapping

 

[Orion*]

how come, then, olimars are significantly more prevalent in the tourney environment? marth does so well against a lot of the top tier but aren't bringing him the results many think he deserves.

is marth really that much more of a difficult character at a high level?

I think so, yeah.

^this. also... theres kinda very little reason to play him when you can take the easy road and go mk na mean?

Wario has a million good players. His worst match-up is MK, and beyond camping in the air, he has problems, like having high risk:high reward kill options (they either have high start up lag, or high end lag, usually).

Also, fart is awesome.

wario has a million inactive AND/or players that dont travel -.-

also, thank you for stating something super obvious twice

i have shadowlink on ignore but every now n then view post just gives your morning that extra sunshine
truly ridiculous.

LOOOOL

BBR: Setting a Higher Standard for Fapping

hugs strat

 

[da K.I.D.]

wario is really good. but trying to avoid getting grab gayed is hard as balls and when it does happen, its super demoralizing. so hes very taxing mentally to play.

and you know the golden rule of brawl, Why make it hard on yourself when you can just play metaknight.

^this. also... theres kinda very little reason to play him when you can take the easy road and go mk na mean?

See? its the accepted standard for brawl.

 

[ShadowLink84]

i have shadowlink on ignore but every now n then view post just gives your morning that extra sunshine
truly ridiculous.

You mean, just like how much I practically **** myself laughing when people say the LGL is a necessity?

=3

 

[ShadowLink84]

So you made a tier list based on a stupid ruleset instead of the current metagame...

No, the SBR based it on the current metagame.

but the ShadowLink claimed the opposite.

No.
I said the SBR, as in, the SBR in itself.
I can't say who exactly voted for what and why.

So while the SBR made its tierlist around no LGL, that does not mean the individual members of the SBR did so with no LGL in mind.
Understand a bit better?
I do speak vaguely at times.

I do, however,dislike the usage of an LGL for varying reasons, primarily because it just reminds me of too much stupidity I have heard over the years.
Franly, I think its due to the community not being young, but due tot he game being different and a desire to treat the game differently.

 

[Spelt]

The community isn't young. We have 10 years of melee experience to guide us, and we are STILL making the same mistakes ... Like ignoring wavedashing for three years.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i cant speak for the old school meleers.

but theres a lot of things that were or are ignored for good reasons.

platform canceling was discovered i think in early 09 or late 08 but people havent been able to apply in a skillful manner until a couple months ago.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

nvm nvm nvm nvm

 

[ShadowLink84]

The community isn't young. We have 10 years of melee experience to guide us, and we are STILL making the same mistakes ... Like ignoring wavedashing for three years.

*points at other communities*

In comparison, the smash community is relatively young.
When you also factor in the origins of the game where it is was not exactly a competitive standard, it causes the communities age to be that much more evident. Even more so when you consider the fact that most smashers haven't played anything competitively outside of Smash.

 

[Browny]

nice assumption there SL

wheres the proof?

 

[ShadowLink84]

nice assumption there SL

wheres the proof?

*stares*

Browny quit trolling.

 

[Browny]

Hey I dont doubt that its likely most smash players havent touched anything else, but going around stating it as if it is a certain fact to back up your claims is a bit much when you cant really prove it (yet).

 

[Spelt]

More smashers play sf4 than most people think imo.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hey I dont doubt that its likely most smash players havent touched anything else, but going around stating it as if it is a certain fact to back up your claims is a bit much when you cant really prove it (yet).

Uh, what?
You do realize you just agreed with me on principle right?

Plus while I would absolutely LOVE to hold a poll, there is no way of verifying that anyone is actually teling the truth, and even then many individuals may mistae playing the game, for playing the games competively.
Most people play SF2, but not so many played it competitively, nor get involved in the community.

 

[Orion*]

You mean, just like how much I practically **** myself laughing when people say the LGL is a necessity?

=3

when like 99% of tournaments are held w/ a LGL as a standard, and a large majority of players enjoy having one so that every match isnt crap- maybe they realize something you dont. maybe you know, youre the one thats wrong?

 

[Life]

He said "necessity", not something like "convenience". Though I shouldn't really play semantics.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Well, for starters, Wario trumps MK in the air if played smart.

So does Jigglypuff and every goddamn character.

His air dodge beats all of MK's aerials, and Wario's air speed and this allows him to literally dance around MK if you space well.

An airdodge isn't an attack so it's not gonna do damage. It also doesn't beat Nado and Mk can just frame trap using a variety of moves. Wario's airspeed is good, but he can't dance around Mk. If he airddoges around and continually lands then he will get grabbed or his airddodge shenanigans will be punished severely.

Wario has okay approach options, and because MK has no aerials, yet Wario has his wheels, MK has to approach.

Mk never has too approach Wario.

If he tornadoes, it's punish city for you.

Depends on where they both are. Why would an Mk be stupid enough to ground tornado or tornado straight at someone all the time?

If he uair bairs, it's also easy to beat down his approach. If he fair approaches, you can airdodge and then bair/fair. You can also time a fair to beat his when his ends. Also, MK dies from a HALF fart at 65%. GET PWNED.

Cause timing Bairs versus Mk's amazing Uair is easy right? Full hop Fair is not punishable when approached. A full retreated Short hop Fair is still almost unpunishable.

Mk also has a hard time killing MK, as his aerial safety and good air moves makes him hard to gimp.

Well this is true. Mk does have a hard time killing himself and his own matchup is one of his hardest/

And, wario's dtilt beats MK's.

Mk's Dtilt has no hitstun, but if it's tripped you're royally ****ed so try and trade hits if you wanna be risky.

Wario's uair also kills MK before 100%, and it also beats the flide attack, and Wario's dair can also beat out shuttle loop (somehow) if timed correctly. Wario's bair also beats MK's uair and dair if you space and time it correctly.

If EVERYTHING is spaced and timed correctly then it beats everything in the game.

Also, MK has no grab craps against Wario. Wario also has several really good KO moves against MK, and he is also very good at racking up damage and zoning MK.

Grabbing Wario over the edge with Mk happens frequently so he can still have grab stuff.

Also, MK only really has evened out the MU because he can really rack up damage really fast. Don't challenge the credibility of these statements, btw. They were taken straight from the MK MU discussion, only reworded.

No, there are several other reasons it's 40-60.

Edit: I, however, do think the MU is 55:45 MK. But still, that's pretty close, so yeah. But that and Marth, are, imo, Wario's only bad MU's or evem MU's. So, also, Wario has really good MU's to keep his position or bring it up even.

D3 completely ***** Wario. How could you possibly forget that?????

And Sheik and Peach beat him too...