i don't and have not ever kept up with this discussion. that being said its time to make a post based off of this pages previous texts.
imo you guys should start with discussing characters who are starting to show a lot of metagame improvement in their AT development and application, tournament placing, and is showing lots of improvement in difficult or now is no longer difficult MUs. i mean im no expert sense i just compete in tournies not host em but here it is my really long and only post i will make in here until the new tier list comes out (cant wait to see wat you guys decide on for placements)!
the characters who ive seen really start to develop the above stats and could possibly qualify for tier placement movement are (no i don't take a character's learning curve being hard to learn as a handicap as all it takes dedication. trust me i main pit/marth and second fox/falco so don't copiously complain about complexity constantly because trust me i know.) :
falco and diddy- imo there needs to be a serious discussion as to whether or not falco, snake, and diddy should be switched around some because recently diddy has doing better in tourney than snake while falco's rapidly advancing strategy and metagame continues to keep scoring higher and higher on the tournament scene. also there have been a lot of changes to these character's MUs ratios throughout these advancements.
Marth- marth's performance in tournament has done nothing but improve since early 2010. his character board has active metagame and strategy advancement on a consistent basis, and due to his only improving match ups ratios due to this performance (all though i think we all can agree that his only two "bad" match ups are MK and DDD, everyone else beware or be even), i think it should be discussed as to whether or not marth should be in second placement on the tier list and then be proceeded by snake diddy falco. imo even though snake has a better match up against MK than marth does, as you proceed to look at the rest of the cast MUs ratio in comparison of the two, you will find that overall marth has better match ups against almost every character snake that goes even with snake, and is also just as good or better at snakes good MUs too. also if the marths were to get super focused and studied character specific "true combo" with all of marths moves based on frame speed and frame advantage (much like the on the fox boards for their DJC and dair frame proven combos) they would be an even deadlier force to reckoned with.
pikachu-even tho as a character pikachu's metagame and eventually tournament placement advanced in 2010 with all this CGing going on and a lot of people doing good with pikachu, the only matchups it had a major impact on (only ones that matter that is. i obviously aint mentioning every single characters little adjustmest they made to adapt) are MK, falco, and fox. the reason i say it had a major impact on MK is because not very many characters have ANYTHING on mk throughout an entire match let alone at the low percents of the first stock. and since the solid percentage lead>follow ups that pickachu's chaingrabs can deal to MK also come with amazing recovery options, speed, and all in the form of a small target to boot gives him enough edge to shows that pikachu deserves his place as a high tier character. thus his placement under the other top tiers suits him perfectly. there got pika outta the way 4 u guys (god i do not like playing scrubby pikas. if you cant get his concepts and you think he is only good because of the CGs then you should not play him. play anyone else. trust me i tried to main pika for a while but when you are not made to use that char. dont fight it)
Zamus- as a character zss has been proven to be high tier material thanks to the effort of nick riddle and other ranked zss players. however, like many other characters in this position, she is lower than she deserves to be because of her high learning curve. with overall great MUs, very few actual hard MUs, a well developed metagame, plenty of advanced techniques, and good pro bracket results imo zss should be high tier in between pika and olimar because while she does have hard counters, olimar definately still 1ups her on the performance scene tho so he deserves his place right above her. overall she is one of the most solid characters in this game even despite the high learning curve.
next is just the order i think Toon Link-Luigi should be on the next list. that way i can go down the list of characters in the order that they should be and why:
ROB, toon link, pit, fox.
ROB- this is sure as hell one hard character rank on the tier list. as far as character traits go ROB is an amazing character. the majority of his MUs rock either his advantage or even. however he is also beaten quite hard by a few characters and unfortunately MK is one of them. in the tournament scene ROB has always done rather well in all categories. however since the majority of ROB users aren't actually winning most tournaments let alone in the pro bracket (which reminds me congrats on ur recent victory stinger), his AT game, which is solid, has pretty much been as developed as it can get unless some new tech or glitch is found out, the same goes for his general metagame. however since several of those listed below him on the tier have yet to advance their metagame and AT game to his level i don't see him dropping in placement until the others advance their metagame and AT game to/beyond ROB's level.
Toon Link- another solid character who character and AT development is similar to ROBs current situation. mostly good-great match ups with not very many bad MUs more (than ROB tho). armed with one of the most (if not the most) comprehensive and massive advanced techniques games in brawl. however seeing as how there just are not enough toon links rockin like MJG tournament wise so his tier placement makes sense. an incredibly advanced character with tons of ATs and a solid yet still somewhat growing metagame as more people actually get good with TL. if anything when their metagame has advanced enough to make his MUs better than ROB then he will exceed ROB probably but only if his tourney wins (or at least top 3 placement) can exceed ROB.
Pit- this is the hardest character to place fairly on a tier list hands down. as the fourth best char in japan pit obviously has the potential to succeed as a character when played correctly. his current match ups are superb in comparison to those both above and below him as he only has a few bad MUs that don't even exceed 60:40 in ratio. however here in the U.S.A. there are just not enough pit players in the tournament scene let alone players doing well (koolaid aside). also while he already has a good amount of ATs at his disposable we (the pit community) are actually still discovering/discussing new ATs. On top of that pits in america are no where as set in with his general metagame as the japanese (once again, koolaid aside) are. while obviously developed enough to compete semi-successfully in the tournament scene pit as a character has yet to make a huge impact on it (koolaid aside once again). when pit becomes a fully developed character and can better use the tools given to him i can see pit going as far as low-midhigh B-tier but not until his metagame and ATs are far more developed than their current state.
Fox- it was hard to decide to between putting him above or below pit. however im pretty sure i placed him right. fox has been doing quite well on tournament scene as of recent, has a thourough and developed general metagame, and his ATs are definately well researched. however he still has some major set backs that when compared land him this tier spot. first off MUs. while fox has many good match ups against high tier characters (most notably 50:50 against MK and snake) fox also gets completely shut down by several characters in this game as well as often falling victim to general game mechanics. fox also fails on more stages than most other characters in his tier as opposed to not getting counter picked even after banning a stage.
well there it is. a really long, well founded, but probably pointless tier list analysis. for those of you who agree thanks. other wise i turn this post over to the trollolols
