Official BBR Tier List v5

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Didn't Ook destroy Mikehaze so badly Dk vs Marth that he was forced to attempt to use DDD on Green Greens to even make it a close match?

He beat him game 1 on FD, 2 stock.
Lost to his MK on Frigate.
Beat his DDD on Green Greens, game 3.

 

[Steam]

also- Inb4Lucariodrops5spotsbecausehelostallhisrep

 

[Exceladon City]

also- Inb4Lucariodrops5spotsbecausehelostallhisrep

Junebug, Trela and Zucco are still around. Those were the only Lucarios worth mentioning anyway.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Junebug is taking a break from smash.
Lee Quit.
Duuno about Ksizzle.
Pitbull did well recently, although I hear that was a result of LOLseeding.

 

[Dabuz]

zucco is only gonna be entering doubles for a while, at least thats what i head

 

[Steam]

This ^^^

Lucario will prolly end up near sonic... which is sad

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If people realize that results aren't everything he won't.

 

[Steam]

If people realize that results aren't everything he won't.

if people realized that he would have been lower a long time ago. his MU spread is awful for his positioning

 

[Exceladon City]

If people realize that results aren't everything he won't.

They make up a pretty big part of this. If a character is getting results then that character is clearly not bad.

 

[Poltergust]

In other, completely random

Spoiler

Not me wanting to brag about my character or anything like that. >_> <_<

news:

Ryo (Ike) nearly 3-stocked CO 18 in tournament (A 35-65 MU from Ike's point of view). Got 4th overall. Vids will be up soon hopefully.

/shuts up anyone who says only San gets good results for Ike.

What, you're not posting who won that tournament and also managed to 2-stock CO18?

By the way, Ryo is soooooo good. I have no idea how and Ike+Yoshi team got 3rd in doubles.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

if people realized that he would have been lower a long time ago. his MU spread is awful for his positioning

He's actually on par with ZSS in terms of MU spread, imo.

DDD has better match-ups with characters below him, but above his match-ups kinda vary, DDD loses to MK worse, Falco is an issue where as for Lucario is an even match-up.

Lucario doesn't **** anyone outside of Ganon, but I think it's better to have more even or winnable match-ups over some easier match-ups with harder match-ups.

But it depends, because DDD doesn't lose to people above him that badly that it would affect him necessarily.

They make up a pretty big part of this. If a character is getting results then that character is clearly not bad.

I disagree.

They may be a part of it, but somethings that are established at traits and facts can't be ignored.

There are also issues with popularity is some cases. Pokemon trainer is pretty unpopular, but saying he should drop because he doesn't get results ignoring what PT can do is fool hearty imo.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What, you're not posting who won that tournament and also managed to 2-stock CO18?

By the way, Ryo is soooooo good. I have no idea how and Ike+Yoshi team got 3rd in doubles.

I wasn't informed of who won. ;_; Just his standing through the Ike boards/people from Florida coming in singing his praises.

 

[Steam]

well Lucario does **** Sonic and Yoshi : D

and the falco matchup is debatable. still not as bad as it is for D3 though.

However luc also has Snake and D3 for horrible matchups. and he does beat pikachu, the only high/top tier he beats.

 

[Coney]

However luc also has Snake and D3 for horrible matchups. and he does beat pikachu, the only high/top tier he beats.

>DDD
>horrible matchup

no

nononononono

no

why do you guys constantly complain about this mu

 

[Exceladon City]

I disagree.

They may be a part of it, but somethings that are established at traits and facts can't be ignored.

There are also issues with popularity is some cases. Pokemon trainer is pretty unpopular, but saying he should drop because he doesn't get results ignoring what PT can do is fool hearty imo.

Uh, ignoring what can do is foolhardy. Charizard and Ivysaur aren't good. It's essentially, 2 meatbags and a driving force. PT becomes undone by people just stalling out Squirtle. No PT wants to have their Squirtle camped for 90+ seconds just so they can watch the other 2 get mollywhopped. Also, no other PT does ANYTHING. Reflex is out here grinding something serious when he can. T-Block did alright and Steeler doesn't even play anymore.

PT
-Has no rep
-Doesn't get results
-Has 2 sandbags holding back 1 good character
-Has an added ailment of fatigue

and in high level play generally gets dominated because the players of PT can't make it work. PT is low tier, plain and simple. Not because he just doesn't get results, but because he can't successfully fare well in a high level environment. Reflex can because he's Reflex.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

well Lucario does **** Sonic and Yoshi : D

and the falco matchup is debatable. still not as bad as it is for D3 though.

However luc also has Snake and D3 for horrible matchups. and he does beat pikachu, the only high/top tier he beats.

Falco is even, both characters have good traits in the MU that help in specific areas.

The other two are indeed bad match-ups.

Also Lucario has it a bit easier against Ice Climbers.

>DDD
>horrible matchup

no

nononononono

no

why do you guys constantly complain about this mu

People hate the Grab = CG, his hard time with approaching DDD safely, and the fat bird doesn't die easily.

I think it's a 4:6 in DDD's favor, but dunno, what do you think about the match-up? I've only played you a few times in the past and you beat me each time.

Uh, ignoring what can do is foolhardy. Charizard and Ivysaur aren't good. It's essentially, 2 meatbags and a driving force. PT becomes undone by people just stalling out Squirtle. No PT wants to have their Squirtle camped for 90+ seconds just so they can watch the other 2 get mollywhopped. Also, no other PT does ANYTHING. Reflex is out here grinding something serious when he can. T-Block did alright and Steeler doesn't even play anymore.

PT
-Has no rep
-Doesn't get results
-Has 2 sandbags holding back 1 good character
-Has an added ailment of fatigue

and in high level play generally gets dominated because the players of PT can't make it work. PT is low tier, plain and simple. Not because he just doesn't get results, but because he can't successfully fare well in a high level environment. Reflex can because he's Reflex.

You see, you nailed down why PT has issues and determined where you think he should be lower using his traits, which is good.

Results and rep however, need to be less important since rep can change at a wim.

 

[Steam]

Coney only thinks it's not bad because he's in the same region as junebug :V

D3 Bair is also pretty lamegay.

 

[Coney]

i think it might be a 6:4 for us, but only because of the cg>usmash

junebug plays the matchup extremely well. he's beaten co18, atomsk, and would've beaten me (i got a lucky fsmash read first game, and he sd'd the third one)

lucario is one of the best characters in the game at juggling ddd at low percents--seriously. falling with dairs is great if you do it right, it locks us in our shield and makes us get poked out. we can't jump up and bair you out of dair if you do it correctly, takes too long to drop shield>sh>bair. lucario is a fantastic spacing character and can space ddd's grab out very easily.

yes, the CG is annoying, but you're ****ing lucario. it could be worse.

tbh simply by nature of the character i'm not sure if lucario can lose to ANYONE worse than 4-6. i think we might have a 6-4 on him but only because now we have a legit killer out of a grab, without that it can be extremely hard to kill lucario.

and yeah, it IS junebug, but that's what these matchups are supposed to be about--top level play. and at the top level, it's really not that bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or2bzWkZlH8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWs0EMzV0rY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZX7P_kTIY

EDIT - also, that was the first time june and i have ever played in tournament in my nearly two-year brawl career

i've always thought this mu wasn't that bad, his aptitude for it really just seals it for me

 

[Laem]

is "lucky read" even actually possible

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

i think it might be a 6:4 for us, but only because of the cg>usmash

junebug plays the matchup extremely well. he's beaten co18, atomsk, and would've beaten me (i got a lucky fsmash read first game, and he sd'd the second one)

lucario is one of the best characters in the game at juggling ddd at low percents--seriously. falling with dairs is great if you do it right, it locks us in our shield and makes us get poked out. we can't jump up and bair you out of dair if you do it correctly, takes too long to drop shield>sh>bair. lucario is a fantastic spacing character and can space ddd's grab out very easily.

yes, the CG is annoying, but you're ****ing lucario. it could be worse.

tbh simply by nature of the character i'm not sure if lucario can lose to ANYONE worse than 4-6. i think we might have a 6-4 on him but only because now we have a legit killer out of a grab, without that it can be extremely hard to kill lucario.

and yeah, it IS junebug, but that's what these matchups are supposed to be about--top level play. and at the top level, it's really not that bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or2bzWkZlH8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWs0EMzV0rY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyZX7P_kTIY

EDIT - also, that was the first time june and i have ever played in tournament in my nearly two-year brawl career

i've always thought this mu wasn't that bad, his aptitude for it really just seals it for me

I agree with this.
+20 respect points.

 

[Steam]

It's hard to say if lucario could have something worse than 60-40. It depends on how you view ratios lol.

at rest of post: K

 

[Coney]

yeah, that's true, and you guys obv understand the character more than i do...i don't mean to be presumptuous or act like i understand the character fully. it just feels like lucario's natural abilities would stop him from losing to ANYONE that badly, except maybe snake who can kill him incredibly early

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Junebug did say he hated that match-up a lot.

 

[Steam]

yeah, that's true, and you guys obv understand the character more than i do...i don't mean to be presumptuous or act like i understand the character fully. it just feels like lucario's natural abilities would stop him from losing to ANYONE that badly, except maybe snake who can kill him incredibly early

TBH aura boost is the only reason Lucario loses the snake matchup. If Lucario was always at like 75% aura the matchup would be evenish.

because let's say the snake and Lucario are about the same skill and going evenish. both are at about 115% first stock where both can kill each other (though snake a lot easier than lucario, at least from a single move at a neutral position).

Snake gets the first kill. Now Lucario is back at 0 and can't kill until around 200% if he doesn't get hit at all or until luc's around 70% on his 2nd stock. This cycle repeats until Lucario gets low% 1 stocked or high% 2 stocked. :/

Lucario gets the first kill. Snake can still kill lucario with one mistake and even it up. :/

Lucario basically has to take the first stock to stand a chance where snake doesn't neccecarily have to.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think being without Aura would do him any good either. He would still die and have to make it up even without it.

 

[Exceladon City]

TBH aura boost is the only reason Lucario loses the snake matchup. If Lucario was always at like 75% aura the matchup would be evenish.

because let's say the snake and Lucario are about the same skill and going evenish. both are at about 115% first stock where both can kill each other (though snake a lot easier than lucario, at least from a single move at a neutral position).

Snake gets the first kill. Now Lucario is back at 0 and can't kill until around 200% if he doesn't get hit at all or until luc's around 70% on his 2nd stock. This cycle repeats until Lucario gets low% 1 stocked or high% 2 stocked. :/

Lucario gets the first kill. Snake can still kill lucario with one mistake and even it up. :/

Lucario basically has to take the first stock to stand a chance where snake doesn't neccecarily have to.

Sounds like a reverse of Lucario v Sonic.

3 stocks 0%
Lucario v Sonic 6:4 Sonic

Sonic doesn't get shutdown and generally can do whatever he wants.

3 stocks 70% Lucario
Lucario v Sonic 45:55 Lucario

Sonic gets outprioritized but he doesn't get massacred. It's no harder than dealing with Luigi. Outside of not being able to outspace him all day.

3 stocks 100%+ Lucario
Lucario v Sonic 35:65 Lucario

Sonic is in trouble because he's diggin the hole deeper and deeper. Lucario, just does Lucario **** and Sonic ends up getting beat out harder because it's way more riskier to trade hits than it was 70+ percents ago and it stays that way for the duration of the match.

 

[Steam]

you do realize that the only move that's priority actually makes a change that matters due to Aura is aurasphere right? Lucario's aura hitboxes have transcendent priority... so sonic gets beat out hard no matter the % Lucario is at.

@ryu- well since lucario's base power is 75%... 0-75 is when he's weakened, 75-death is when he's buffed.

Since lucario will generally die at around 110-120 that's 75% weakened and 35-45% buffed :/

when Lucario's about to die against snake he's not all that much buffed from his base power... so he wouldn't kill all that much later. Losing the first stock wouldn't be NEAR as bad as it is with aura.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That also can help us kill Snake in the long run, which is difficult as is, actually in some cases if we take the first stock we can cling onto an advantage but it depends on what happens, so momentum based.

If we die first we come back with a stock behind buff so it's not a terrible loss, still bad though.

I'm one of those people who think's he better with aura than without, so meh.

 

[Exceladon City]

you do realize that the only move that's priority actually makes a change that matters due to Aura is aurasphere right? Lucario's aura hitboxes have transcendent priority... so sonic gets beat out hard no matter the % Lucario is at.

@ryu- well since lucario's base power is 75%... 0-75 is when he's weakened, 75-death is when he's buffed.

Since lucario will generally die at around 110-120 that's 75% weakened and 35-45% buffed :/

when Lucario's about to die against snake he's not all that much buffed from his base power... so he wouldn't kill all that much later. Losing the first stock wouldn't be NEAR as bad as it is with aura.

The thing is, trades aren't as risky at lower percents. At higher percents, if Sonic and Lucario trade hits, Lucario is benefitting WAAAAAY more than Sonic. Without Aura, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. If anything it would be a 50:50 or 45:55 Lucario. I don't know why I thought 6:4. Could be the lack of food in my system. I haven't had a decent amount of food in a while...hooray for being broke.

 

[Steam]

yeah that makes more sense then lol. Trades are riskier but if lucario is spacing properly there shouldn't be trades because Lucario's hitboxes and superior range. Of course Sonic moves so damn fast he's very hard to space perfectly against lol.

 

[Exceladon City]

yeah that makes more sense then lol. Trades are riskier but if lucario is spacing properly there shouldn't be trades because Lucario's hitboxes and superior range. Of course Sonic moves so damn fast he's very hard to space perfectly against lol.

Sonic ***** spacing games. Which is why he doesn't get wrecked to hell and back by Marth.

I'm extremely knowledgeable of the Sonic/Lucario MU. Drilled that **** for a week and a half for several hours a day. I've never come so close to putting my fist through a t.v in my life.

 

[Steam]

Lingering hitboxes make it a lot easier to space off sonic's approaches :/

but yeah Aura is really gay for Sonic in that matchup. his only reasonably strong kill move is like useless : D

 

[Exceladon City]

Lingering hitboxes make it a lot easier to space off sonic's approaches :/

but yeah Aura is really gay for Sonic in that matchup. his only reasonably strong kill move is like useless : D

Sonic only really stands a above average chance if he gimps Lucario mad early. Even then, it's like a 40% chance that he wins without getting blasted on stocks 1-2. Which he really shouldn't because a smart Sonic just plays it stupid safe. Optimistically speaking, Sonic should win with like 1 stock mid %. /matchupthread

Back to Lucario on the tier list.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sonic ***** spacing games. Which is why he doesn't get wrecked to hell and back by Marth.

I'm extremely knowledgeable of the Sonic/Lucario MU. Drilled that **** for a week and a half for several hours a day. I've never come so close to putting my fist through a t.v in my life.

I wish I had a good Sonic main to practice with, I'm bad at the match-up even when people told me, do stuff and win.

It doesn't work for me.

As for where Lucario should be, leave him around 10-12 spot. He's gonna be stuck there unless something drastic changes.

 

[Zucco]

zucco is only gonna be entering doubles for a while, at least thats what i head

Im going to enter at SiiS4 just because Im not about to travel 10 hours and not enter singles lol. Would be kinda ridiculous.

 

[Steam]

Aura will get even gayer if luc is down stocks as it doesn't apply to his 167% cap, it applies seperately :3

but Sonic should basically never gimp lucario unless something really stupid happens, like Lee vs. X at MLG Dallas.

ya Lucario on tier list. His matchups are bad and is losing the rep that backed him. yupyup

@ryu- I'll help you with Sonic if you help me with MK, or one of the spacies D:

 

[Exceladon City]

Aura will get even gayer if luc is down stocks as it doesn't apply to his 167% cap, it applies seperately :3

but Sonic should basically never gimp lucario unless something really stupid happens, like Lee vs. X at MLG Dallas.

ya Lucario on tier list. His matchups are bad and is losing the rep that backed him. yupyup

@ryu- I'll help you with Sonic if you help me with MK, or one of the spacies D:

Yeah basically. I don't feel like going through the headache so, I play MK or ICs. Sometimes Fox.

 

[Poltergust]

Heh, Sonic mains think they have it bad when it comes to Lucario.

 

[Exceladon City]

Heh, Sonic mains think they have it bad when it comes to Lucario.

We do. You can still somewhat kill him. Bair is stale from spacing his *** out all match and Fsmash realistically speaking, isn't killing him until 150% by then we would've died to ftilt.

 

[Chuee]

Heh, Sonic mains think they have it bad when it comes to Lucario.

Poor Yoshi.