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[NSW] Boost: REBOOT - Sunday, the 11th of September 2011
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
I LAG
Smash Lord
<_< no support for liam or me?
Pirate,
Your points are great, but I think you and many others have missed the point drastically.
Yoshi's Island isn't perfect, nor is Final Destination.
Falco and D3 can cg fine on it. It's only falco's CG to spike that has complications.
To alleviate this change, one should show me how a large plethora of characters are suddenly given a disadvantage based on the neutral they would pick against multiple characters.
The stage design isn't the reason why we're switching, it's Final D's negative effects that are the reason for the change.
i.e.
Marth v Ness/Lucas: Ness strikes YI, Marth Strikes SV. This is a change, but I would say that this isn't an entirely fair match up in the first place, and this will hardly have an effect on matches (Even though Marths release grab cg suffers complications on YI).
All Chars vs DK: YI is striked and the altercation will most likely take place on BF (generally a better stage than SV for match ups). Will the use of BF be drastic to your character?
Chars that don't like YI vs Falco/ICs/Diddy: Well, those 3 chars have minuses in their games because of the stage already, OTHERWISE you'll be going to smashville anyway; the change is hardly effecting you (it's unfortunate we can't really fix everything).
Marth vs Wario: Wario will strike YI and the match takes place on BF as normal.
So if this change results in:
- The majority of 'neutral' match ups still being played on the same stage (unless someones not picking the 'best choice') please avoid arguing.
- The match is no longer being played on Smashville because you're Falco, ICs, Diddy or [maybe] Dedede/Pikachu; this change is made against you. If you feel this is drastically unfair that you no longer get a viable counterpick stage played on the neutral against EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME, then we'll see as time goes on.
- A major disadvantage to your character in MANY match ups because of the change in stages, please state what characters, what match ups, why/how, etc.
TPG/My internet is being really ******** tonight, so I'm avoiding the internet usage because welll... i'm getting speeds worse than dialup, and half the time things wont connect anyway.
Your points are great, but I think you and many others have missed the point drastically.
Yoshi's Island isn't perfect, nor is Final Destination.
Falco and D3 can cg fine on it. It's only falco's CG to spike that has complications.
To alleviate this change, one should show me how a large plethora of characters are suddenly given a disadvantage based on the neutral they would pick against multiple characters.
The stage design isn't the reason why we're switching, it's Final D's negative effects that are the reason for the change.
i.e.
Marth v Ness/Lucas: Ness strikes YI, Marth Strikes SV. This is a change, but I would say that this isn't an entirely fair match up in the first place, and this will hardly have an effect on matches (Even though Marths release grab cg suffers complications on YI).
All Chars vs DK: YI is striked and the altercation will most likely take place on BF (generally a better stage than SV for match ups). Will the use of BF be drastic to your character?
Chars that don't like YI vs Falco/ICs/Diddy: Well, those 3 chars have minuses in their games because of the stage already, OTHERWISE you'll be going to smashville anyway; the change is hardly effecting you (it's unfortunate we can't really fix everything).
Marth vs Wario: Wario will strike YI and the match takes place on BF as normal.
So if this change results in:
- The majority of 'neutral' match ups still being played on the same stage (unless someones not picking the 'best choice') please avoid arguing.
- The match is no longer being played on Smashville because you're Falco, ICs, Diddy or [maybe] Dedede/Pikachu; this change is made against you. If you feel this is drastically unfair that you no longer get a viable counterpick stage played on the neutral against EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME, then we'll see as time goes on.
- A major disadvantage to your character in MANY match ups because of the change in stages, please state what characters, what match ups, why/how, etc.
TPG/My internet is being really ******** tonight, so I'm avoiding the internet usage because welll... i'm getting speeds worse than dialup, and half the time things wont connect anyway.
i dont think youre point in regards to ness/lucas striking yi and then playing marth on bf is valid... just because a mu is hard, you really dont have to make it impossible...
and i already mentioned the ics vs marth before, which is even enough on sv/fd, but difficult on yi and stupid on bf. poor ea...
hang on, wait, who actually benefits from this change? chars who normally strike fd... like mk/wario/marth... and who suffers from it? almost everyone else. the response from this tourney will be interesting methinks.
and i already mentioned the ics vs marth before, which is even enough on sv/fd, but difficult on yi and stupid on bf. poor ea...
hang on, wait, who actually benefits from this change? chars who normally strike fd... like mk/wario/marth... and who suffers from it? almost everyone else. the response from this tourney will be interesting methinks.
swordsaint
Smash Master
I'm with Shaya. Mike, most of the problems you've listed are just personal issues you need to overcome. You say things become "more difficult". And you don't say matchups, you're talking about things like autocancelling and "techniques", all that needs be done is either ;
A) don't use said techniques
B) learn the different timing and apply it when needed.
Attila....for the last time, Ice Climbers are good on BF, and in the end its not THAT much better for Marth. Marth doesn't have many CP stages to begin with, and mostly relies on picking stages disadvantageous for his opponent. I agree with the change, even if it empowers Marth ever so slightly, but in the end, everyone still has CP options. Everyone still has a level they ban. And BEFORE this Change, Marth never got HIS stage either. So even if it does give Marth a better edge than before, he didn't have that much of one on the last Stage list anyway.
A) don't use said techniques
B) learn the different timing and apply it when needed.
Attila....for the last time, Ice Climbers are good on BF, and in the end its not THAT much better for Marth. Marth doesn't have many CP stages to begin with, and mostly relies on picking stages disadvantageous for his opponent. I agree with the change, even if it empowers Marth ever so slightly, but in the end, everyone still has CP options. Everyone still has a level they ban. And BEFORE this Change, Marth never got HIS stage either. So even if it does give Marth a better edge than before, he didn't have that much of one on the last Stage list anyway.
Id only ever cancel FD if SV was just outright better.
Which really only mattered against pew pew run away super camp characters.
Id prefer FD with Marth against every character in the game who doesnt have a projectile.
Marth v ICs on FD is not even enough... LOL. Unless you consider planki.... oh wait, triple jump glitch.
As I said, Id take ICs to SV over BF anyday of the god **** week. IN JUST ABOUT EVERY MATCH UP.
Let's take a match up...
70:30 in one character's advantage due to an infinite of some sort. Stage choice in the neutral setting doesnt change this. It's still a [hard] counter.
Nothing else you said I haven't already addressed.
Which really only mattered against pew pew run away super camp characters.
Id prefer FD with Marth against every character in the game who doesnt have a projectile.
Marth v ICs on FD is not even enough... LOL. Unless you consider planki.... oh wait, triple jump glitch.
As I said, Id take ICs to SV over BF anyday of the god **** week. IN JUST ABOUT EVERY MATCH UP.
Let's take a match up...
70:30 in one character's advantage due to an infinite of some sort. Stage choice in the neutral setting doesnt change this. It's still a [hard] counter.
Nothing else you said I haven't already addressed.
differences of opinion i suppose. your tournament, run it how you see fit. god knows i would.
EverAlert
Smash Master
Eh, not really, ICs CGs aren't really affected by the slant except on the lips (easy to avoid, just don't CG them there); actually ICs actually gain some cool mostly-edgeguarding-related tricks thanks to the steep lip slants, so it evens out in that regard. The reason YI is bad for ICs has more to do with the slants interfering with camping (the dip causes some projectiles to go over Ice Shot where normally on flat ground the Ice Shot would block them), and also the platform has weird tilting dynamics that don't work well for ICs at all. Anyway, this doesn't really change your point, but the moral is that YI slant doesn't really affect CGs as much as people seem to make it out to.
Haha <3. Although tbh, I'm going to prefer BF against Marth over SV or FD, so this stage switch doesn't really affect anything in regards to this particular matchup. Scenario A (FD/BF/SV): Marth strikes Battlefield, because it turns ICs into serial rapists and that's bad for Marth obv. Of FD and SV, I'm really going to prefer Smashville in this case since I want to limit Marth's maneuverability around me as much as possible, and also add in some bonuses (extended uair chains, etc); even though the moving platform can be used against me to camp, I can use the platform myself a bit better in a very Battlefield-like way to camp, assist my combos, limit the directions I can be approached in, and more (though of course not to the extent I can on Battlefield itself). Besides, I can easily-enough ignore the platform altogether and play SV like FD without a gay lip anyway. So I strike FD, and we play on Smashville. Scenario B (YI/BF/SV): Again, Battlefield turns me into a serial rapist, so Marth insta-strikes it. Since Yoshi's Island is bad for me, I strike it; we play on Smashville.
Actually, rather than swapping a stage, if the goal is more diversity in stage play, maybe it's better to have 5 neutrals? The only problem here, of course, is finding a suitable 5th. (PS1 tbh)
M
+9999999999
Don't really care, though if anything, more in favor of EA's suggestion. Although PS1 would be kinda stupid. Maybe Lylat.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Oh god please please please let it be PS1.
Leisha
Top Tier Pillow
I loved it back when ps1 was neutral ^_^. I know why conor wants it though xD
C~Dog
Smash Champion
I think you should be quiet now ~_~
Problem is that both Lylat and PS1 have even more drastic effects than without them.
PS1 really isn't neutral. Rewards for several things go through the roof here (i.e. windmill, walls, etc).
Lylat has been considered less neutral than YI for quite a while. Hell we ran PS1 over it in the past.
FD has been frequently hated upon but no real solution to is has been presented.
I admit that I'm taking a stab in the dark here swapping it out for YI, but I believe it's worth trying.
PS1 really isn't neutral. Rewards for several things go through the roof here (i.e. windmill, walls, etc).
Lylat has been considered less neutral than YI for quite a while. Hell we ran PS1 over it in the past.
FD has been frequently hated upon but no real solution to is has been presented.
I admit that I'm taking a stab in the dark here swapping it out for YI, but I believe it's worth trying.
Toby.
Smash Master
A little something called upthrow?
Pirate.
Smash Apprentice
Lol, yeah the difficulty part was tertally irrelevant... Concerning auto-cancelling, some techniques are made literally impossible due to the slant.. sure Falco can change his shdl timing... but gdorfs shdair, fox's shfair... all need to be frame perfect, else theyl get landing lag/be impossible, and cause your landing sooner than you would on a flat surface, they're rendered useless.
After reviewing and testing all the outrageous
acusations i made (hurrr) about who actually gets disadvantaged by the slope. i found i was wrong about a few, like peach's sh dair -> float, fox's triple lazer, anything of toonlinks, lol. ksorry. Yes well after compelling arguments were made and the cons dropped rapidly, i'm really pretty easy with the change, but for the sake of bringing up counterpoints for the argument, just so we can have this discussion now and come to an agreement, ill reply to this 
.Ok, so i assume this question is asking one to provide a contrast of BF/SV/FD to BF/SV/YI as the 3 neutrals, showing whether a larger array of characters are disadvantaged from the change.Shayaa said:
Okay well characters that have disadvantages on Yoshis Island for reasons of the ditch, the edge, The giant platform in the centre, Cornelius and the Shy guys: Pikachu, Wario, Fox, Falco, Gdorf, Falcon, D3, Ness, Lucas, Ice-Climbers, Diddy, Toon Link, Link.[13/39 chars] (IDK if there are more, but for these people i am quite sure).
With Pikachu/Fox/Falco/D3/Icies/Diddy/Toon Link/Link... it pretty much changes from them chosing between smashville and bfield... and their opponent chosing from smashvile and bfield.
For Wario/Gdorf/Falcon/Ness/Lucas, there are many variables, with chosing bfield/smashville as a preferable matchup, but due to them nearly always having to ban yoshis, theyre for the most part in the disadvantage.
So without having to make a character v each character list, i can mostly assert that, for every matchup, these 13 characters will be playing on the less favourable neutral (of smashville/bfield) to them. because the ban advantage goes to the other player.
Against DK/Wolf/Game and Watch (possibly others) Yoshi's will also likely be instantly banned by the opponent, so these characters players get the ban advantage.
Alot of the good campy/projectile chars are disadvantaged by YI's, so must ban it.... Cause it generally goes, 'person who has to approach strikes FD' 'person who wants to camp strikes Bfield' -> Smashville. So through pure theory and logic, i guess the characters that will benefit most from YI being neutral are those who usually approach and do particularly well on battlefield.
How disadvantageous though?
D3 and Falco can cg fine on those stages.
High level play promotes the use of smash DI to avoid being spiked at the ledge.
D3 is not weakened on this stage except in a match up specific sense.
Falco's CG is mute, his lasers can be cut depending on the platform, and his side b requires more precision to use effectively. Falco gets perks because of that platform so he can camp against some characters -better-.
Pikachu can still use his dthrow cg. I'm not entirely sure of or IF his fthrow cg has problems. Tjolts still move through the stage, yet they'll be moving towards someone slower once they touch the ground. This is yet again a matter of precision rather than a removal of an option.
Diddy only has quirks of his bananas, in ways that could happen on BF.
I could go through all chars, but it seems to me the stage doesn't remove options, it just requires different precisions to play effectively. Not including Ness/Lucas. And Not being sure of Toon Link/Link either; even though I believe their boomerangs can be pretty evil.
Do these characters playing on this stage have drastic match up changes?
Fox and Gdorf you say... Neither really have slanted match ups if they're forced onto either BF or SV anyway though...
One can still effectively camp on YI.
I actually feel YI's characteristic is of a stage that both allows camping but also allows approaching. This contradiction comes from where one actually positions themselves on the stage, and the middle platforms movements; giving strengths to two types of characters over all.
Many people feel Battlefield is the most neutral stage in the game (i.e. "even Smashville is too god **** big").
No particular character is weakened by Battlefield though. And no particular character is weakened by Smashville either. You can say that FD doesn't do this either (bar some recovery crap that everyone at this point should be able to handle because they get to... oh wait wouldn't want to connect that with YI), BUT FD exaggerates the match up strengths/weaknesses that are personified by smashville MORE. Hence the YI solution (pseudo approach coupled with camp/limiting approach) but I feel it's the balance needed between two stages that give characters no weaknesses. As the chars who are forced to cancel YI are not exactly disadvantaged [overall] more on BF and SV anyway.
D3 and Falco can cg fine on those stages.
High level play promotes the use of smash DI to avoid being spiked at the ledge.
D3 is not weakened on this stage except in a match up specific sense.
Falco's CG is mute, his lasers can be cut depending on the platform, and his side b requires more precision to use effectively. Falco gets perks because of that platform so he can camp against some characters -better-.
Pikachu can still use his dthrow cg. I'm not entirely sure of or IF his fthrow cg has problems. Tjolts still move through the stage, yet they'll be moving towards someone slower once they touch the ground. This is yet again a matter of precision rather than a removal of an option.
Diddy only has quirks of his bananas, in ways that could happen on BF.
I could go through all chars, but it seems to me the stage doesn't remove options, it just requires different precisions to play effectively. Not including Ness/Lucas. And Not being sure of Toon Link/Link either; even though I believe their boomerangs can be pretty evil.
Do these characters playing on this stage have drastic match up changes?
Fox and Gdorf you say... Neither really have slanted match ups if they're forced onto either BF or SV anyway though...
One can still effectively camp on YI.
I actually feel YI's characteristic is of a stage that both allows camping but also allows approaching. This contradiction comes from where one actually positions themselves on the stage, and the middle platforms movements; giving strengths to two types of characters over all.
Many people feel Battlefield is the most neutral stage in the game (i.e. "even Smashville is too god **** big").
No particular character is weakened by Battlefield though. And no particular character is weakened by Smashville either. You can say that FD doesn't do this either (bar some recovery crap that everyone at this point should be able to handle because they get to... oh wait wouldn't want to connect that with YI), BUT FD exaggerates the match up strengths/weaknesses that are personified by smashville MORE. Hence the YI solution (pseudo approach coupled with camp/limiting approach) but I feel it's the balance needed between two stages that give characters no weaknesses. As the chars who are forced to cancel YI are not exactly disadvantaged [overall] more on BF and SV anyway.
EverAlert
Smash Master
teehee. But Battlefield is actually bigger than Smashville! trufax. (t'was mentioned in one of the ICs matchup discussions lol)
Not to contradict you or anything, I actually agree with your arguments; just sayin'.
swordsaint
Smash Master
YI is good for Falco as long as you know the stage.
He can camp under the platform.
He can wall jump recover.
The upper platform creates a recovery option.
Cornelius creates a recover option.
" might hurt cg >spike, but at the same time it's so easy to tech the long wall on YI.
The slants don't hinder CGs. (except maybe Marth)
The slants don't hurt phantasm if you learn to cancel phantasm properly.
So really, at first glance the only time I really have an opinion on YI is against Marth. Then after that, both BF and SV provide platforms (for me) to remove Marths 0-death on Falco.
So eh, Mike. Don't use Falco in your little argument kthx.
He can camp under the platform.
He can wall jump recover.
The upper platform creates a recovery option.
Cornelius creates a recover option.
" might hurt cg >spike, but at the same time it's so easy to tech the long wall on YI.
The slants don't hinder CGs. (except maybe Marth)
The slants don't hurt phantasm if you learn to cancel phantasm properly.
So really, at first glance the only time I really have an opinion on YI is against Marth. Then after that, both BF and SV provide platforms (for me) to remove Marths 0-death on Falco.
So eh, Mike. Don't use Falco in your little argument kthx.
Toby.
Smash Master
I think it is of great import that I speak my mind about the proposed change to the stage list. In regards to the removal of final destination, I think that this may prove to be a fatal mistake as it has some rather catchy and pleasant tunes associated with it. We must also never forget that the removal of this stage - like the removal of apartheid in Africa - will trigger a chain of events that will inevitably result in the decline of the master race.
I would also like to give my opinion on smashville, many of you view this as a somewhat neutral stage but I don't think there is anything neutral about random balloons floating in and disrupting the inexorable march towards my destined victory. One day this balloon shall prove to be the death of us all. This red baron has been the scourge of my existence since time immemorial; we fought during the Great War and now we are forced to arms once more. Who here is foolhardy, nay, callous enough to ignore the many lives that will surely be sacrificed to the red baron and his blood stained doubloons?
It has also come to my attention that something of untold significance has been lost to us recently. I speak of course of the one known as neck beard. A truly hairy soul, his taciturn, and somewhat austere presence on the field of carnage was a frothy helping of chicken soup in the bowl of my infinite despair.
My insightful analysis of the smashing community and the stages upon which they wage their wars will continue after a short respite.
Sincerely, Grand Duke Iron Balls.
I would also like to give my opinion on smashville, many of you view this as a somewhat neutral stage but I don't think there is anything neutral about random balloons floating in and disrupting the inexorable march towards my destined victory. One day this balloon shall prove to be the death of us all. This red baron has been the scourge of my existence since time immemorial; we fought during the Great War and now we are forced to arms once more. Who here is foolhardy, nay, callous enough to ignore the many lives that will surely be sacrificed to the red baron and his blood stained doubloons?
It has also come to my attention that something of untold significance has been lost to us recently. I speak of course of the one known as neck beard. A truly hairy soul, his taciturn, and somewhat austere presence on the field of carnage was a frothy helping of chicken soup in the bowl of my infinite despair.
My insightful analysis of the smashing community and the stages upon which they wage their wars will continue after a short respite.
Sincerely, Grand Duke Iron Balls.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Toby wins at life.
Do consider the change as an experiment though.
Even though I change things often without bringing them up (well I usually do personally to a person or two), I am always happy to be proven wrong.
This change was to make the "one of the three" stages chosen as neutral to be as fair for both characters as possible. I felt FD strayed from that, and if YI does the same we'll need to find an alternate solution yet again.
I'm not sure as Marth what match ups I would play on YI, perhaps G&W because who cares if he planks (25 ledge grabs :D), he can never key. I could make it work against MK. I'd happily fight a plethora of characters on it, but most would cancel it anyway.
EQUIPMENT GUYS
Shaya - 4 televisions, 1 wii
EA - 1/2 TVs
I AM NOT SURE OF ANYTHING ELSE GUYS, SO PLEASE TELL ME YOUR EQUIPMENT BRINGINGS.
Also sign up on http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=8084 ;D
According to the list some guy named "Zxv" is coming. Unless he has an alternate name on smashboards, yay new people
Even though I change things often without bringing them up (well I usually do personally to a person or two), I am always happy to be proven wrong.
This change was to make the "one of the three" stages chosen as neutral to be as fair for both characters as possible. I felt FD strayed from that, and if YI does the same we'll need to find an alternate solution yet again.
I'm not sure as Marth what match ups I would play on YI, perhaps G&W because who cares if he planks (25 ledge grabs :D), he can never key. I could make it work against MK. I'd happily fight a plethora of characters on it, but most would cancel it anyway.
-
EQUIPMENT GUYS
Shaya - 4 televisions, 1 wii
EA - 1/2 TVs
I AM NOT SURE OF ANYTHING ELSE GUYS, SO PLEASE TELL ME YOUR EQUIPMENT BRINGINGS.
Also sign up on http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=8084 ;D
According to the list some guy named "Zxv" is coming. Unless he has an alternate name on smashboards, yay new people
AdmiralComrade
Smash Journeyman
Sorry schedualed for a Driving test.. so i cant comes.. unless i come at like 1:30-1:45ish
M
+9999999999
I have a wii...?
Prepared to place terribly without the use of Ness. =)
Prepared to place terribly without the use of Ness. =)
I LAG
Smash Lord
is Zxv ebz?
S.D
Smash Master
I can bring at least 1 TV maybe 2 if I hit Tim up tomorrow.Do consider the change as an experiment though.
Even though I change things often without bringing them up (well I usually do personally to a person or two), I am always happy to be proven wrong.
This change was to make the "one of the three" stages chosen as neutral to be as fair for both characters as possible. I felt FD strayed from that, and if YI does the same we'll need to find an alternate solution yet again.
I'm not sure as Marth what match ups I would play on YI, perhaps G&W because who cares if he planks (25 ledge grabs :D), he can never key. I could make it work against MK. I'd happily fight a plethora of characters on it, but most would cancel it anyway.
-
EQUIPMENT GUYS
Shaya - 4 televisions, 1 wii
EA - 1/2 TVs
I AM NOT SURE OF ANYTHING ELSE GUYS, SO PLEASE TELL ME YOUR EQUIPMENT BRINGINGS.
Also sign up on http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=8084 ;D
According to the list some guy named "Zxv" is coming. Unless he has an alternate name on smashboards, yay new people
swordsaint
Smash Master
no its not, but ebz and a mate will be coming
S.D
Smash Master
Tim and Daz are NOT attending, which frees up 2 spaces for Novocastrians going to Boost. Alex gets one by default for being my gentleman lover, the other will probably go to Miloo.
isthattim?
Smash Ace
gopobox
Smash Journeyman
Anyone know the cheapest way to get to mascot? I'm very pov and don't know whether going by just a train is cheaper or by catching both train and a bus is cheaper...
The 3-5 section bus ticket will get you from central to mascot on the train
so like 1.50 (each way) concession
Train return to mascot or central I dont know `-`
If the difference is more than 3 dollars :O
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Also S.D, hows the meleez surviving without more tvs? !_!
so like 1.50 (each way) concession
Train return to mascot or central I dont know `-`
If the difference is more than 3 dollars :O
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Also S.D, hows the meleez surviving without more tvs? !_!
gopobox
Smash Journeyman
Double post to get rid of 69th post T_T.....
Well I have no idea how much train tickets cost during peak hours because i only buy them on weekends where they are really cheap. I think I'll just go to central then catch a bus... not sure which bus to catch and stuff but ill sort it out later...
Well I have no idea how much train tickets cost during peak hours because i only buy them on weekends where they are really cheap. I think I'll just go to central then catch a bus... not sure which bus to catch and stuff but ill sort it out later...
SummonerAU
Smash Lord
Wait, ticket prices change at peak hour?
I don't think I've ever caught a train at peak hour...
I don't think I've ever caught a train at peak hour...
gopobox
Smash Journeyman
Yeah who catches trains at peak hour these days...
I have and im pretty sure they still cost me the same.
Oh well :O
Oh well :O