Ninja Clan Here We Stand! Sheik Match-Up Thread

[BigHairyFart]

My problem was getting in. The only thing that worked was empty short hop>grab, but he even caught on to that pretty quickly.

 

[sGale]

snip

Bit late on the reply but thanks a lot! This was very informative and it confirms most of my thoughts on the match-up. It's really hard breaking the rushdown mentality, but I guess I'll have to do it

My problem was getting in. The only thing that worked was empty short hop>grab, but he even caught on to that pretty quickly.

In my experience, when you're approaching you really want to bait out his projectiles since they're on a timer after throwing them out. Try to see which one ROB uses first. If it's the laser you want to either powershield or just jump over it. If ROB charges the gyro you want to rush him down (Be prepared for timing mixups regarding this one). Grabs work well, ftilt murders ROB and he's easy to combo. Hope this helps a bit!

 

[V_x_I_D]

Hey guys, I need some help with the Sheik vs Sheik mirror matchup.
It's so fast and aggressive and I'm usually on the losing end.

 

[Jlp]

Hey guys, I need some help with the Sheik vs Sheik mirror matchup.
It's so fast and aggressive and I'm usually on the losing end.

I play quite a few Sheik players, it's not easy, especially if they a lot of the same tech you do. Your biggest advantage (compared to someone who doesn't play Sheik) is that you should have a good idea of what they are trying to do. Throwing out 1 needles often helps because if your opponent see's you charging them they'll do it back. Keep in they're face, if the match is fast and aggressive BE THE AGGRESSOR (easier said than done). Although it's pretty hard to string together combo's (tilt > fair > fair > fair) because of how quickly your opponent can strike back as it's happening. So if you find yourself having trouble getting a decent combo & getting hurt at the end, tease them (tilt > fair > back off, opponent reacts thinking you will continue the string, misses, you punish).

One last thing, and it may seem obvious, but when you are on high% play it safe, Sheik is great at surviving against another Sheik so all % on your opponent, however small, is good %.

VVV Link to one of ZeRo's vids (Sheik Dittos) VVV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPBl2oWQjCk&list=PLkqFtvxndWyOxPiihWcgCp-VmG9oUa5am

 

[PhantomEdge]

Hey all, been a while since I've posted here but I would like some help! I've been fighting a very good yoshi who I find very difficult to beat, we go about 90 - 10. The things that I specifically find hardest to deal with is his aerial egg throw pressure, constant use of jabs and SH nairs, and weaving in and out of my range. Needles haven't been so great because he is rarely on the ground. His playstyle is extremely aggresive. Any tips for this matchup? Also one more separate matchup question, how do you deal with a pikachu that spams aerial neutral B in order to get me to jump and then destroys me with quick aerials? I've tried approaching with shield stopping but I always seem to get grabbed..

 

[?.?]

@ PhantomEdge Ik a bit about the yoshi MU, I fight KDB at weeklies all the time so I think I can help a bit with that MU. As for the pikachu problem I always handle that by PS the n-b and then just spotdodging when he goes for the grab followed by jab/d-tilt/sh nair. I should mention yoshi is my favorite MU simply due to it being a match of skill I honestly think it's an even MU. Of course you could mixup by jabbing(frame 2) to break his grab. Also standing grab is faster than shield-grab so remember that, a lot more useful to know than it sounds

Anyways, if the yoshi you're fighting is anything like the one I fight you want to keep in his face as much as possible while staying out of range. Keep the pressure on using your safety, if he likes shield a lot learn, love, and abuse tomahawking/pivot grabs. His jab is just something you have to expect it's very fast and can combo into smashes if you don't jump out or di down and shield depending on your percent. aerial egg spam can be beaten by our high speed, simply running forward lowers our hurtbox and can allows us to get free aerials off, our bair beats a strong-nair from him if spaced properly and almost all our aerials beat his sour-nair if spaced properly.

You say he's super aggressive but what methods is he using? If you tell me that I'll help out more. Most of Yoshis neutral game options are about even with ours so it shouldn't be too hard for you assuming you can take stage control early and not give any momentum I should mention I've yet to fight yoshi after the patch and I have no idea on his changes as my internet is terrible.

 

[WispBae]

Howdy Sheiks of all shapes and size! The Duck Hunt forums are currently talking about the MU against the ninja herself, and would love some input from actual Sheik mains!

Click this picture of The Iron Sheik to go straight to the thread!

 

[Jlp]

@ WispBae My flatmate @TheWorstMuppet mains DHD, we play every night.

It's all about rushing down down DHD. I actually commented ^further up^ talking about the DHD match up.

From what I understand DHD thrives when he gets momentum, getting hit once can lead to a world of hurt. Though because his recovery leaves him quite open every Sheik player will go for the punish making the match pretty good for Sheik. DHD has to throw out all his goods if he wants to protect himself of stage.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I just played what was easily the worst and most humiliating set ever. It was against the ZSS in my area that always gives me trouble, I've never won a set against her yet. Game one she **** on me, game two I pulled out a super clutch win despite a grenade SD. Then game three lasted less then two minutes because the ****ing grenade stole both of my stocks.

Literally everything I do, this player shuts me out. I camp, she gets in my face before the needle throw is over. I play aggro, she poweshields everything, all my grabs are just out of reach. I can't win, and it's driving me insane. I consistently beat players that consistently beat her, one of whom mains ZSS as well, but every time I meet her in bracket, I get **** on. How the hell am I supposed to deal with this? There aren't many other characters that can go even with ZSS, and I'm devoted to Sheik at this point anyways.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Can we regroup and start talking about the way things need to be addressed differently post patch? Many character boards are re-discussing the matchups for potential top tiers since the patch. I can say some things about Diddy Kong, for sure.

 

[ArikadoSD]

On-paper I feel our matchup with Mario and Luigi would be a bit different. Pre-patch I used to camp, play extra safe, only approach when I know I won't be puished, and then fish for a bair. Now that bair doesn't kill, I feel like I should be playing a bit more aggressive and try edgeguarding and stealing their jump, which isn't as safe as pre-patch.

 

[WispBae]

I just played what was easily the worst and most humiliating set ever. It was against the ZSS in my area that always gives me trouble, I've never won a set against her yet. Game one she **** on me, game two I pulled out a super clutch win despite a grenade SD. Then game three lasted less then two minutes because the ****ing grenade stole both of my stocks.

Literally everything I do, this player shuts me out. I camp, she gets in my face before the needle throw is over. I play aggro, she poweshields everything, all my grabs are just out of reach. I can't win, and it's driving me insane. I consistently beat players that consistently beat her, one of whom mains ZSS as well, but every time I meet her in bracket, I get **** on. How the hell am I supposed to deal with this? There aren't many other characters that can go even with ZSS, and I'm devoted to Sheik at this point anyways.

Sorry to butt in, but I know this phenomenon well. The ZSS player is in your head it seems like, and it's more or a mental block. Not a Sheik main, but played plenty of ZSS's with my Duck Hunt. We sometimes get a mental block on ourselves, and think "There's no way I can lose" or "I'm better than them, what the hell?". To be brutally honest, it's not a good mindset to have. As soon as you think your matches are free, you start losing them, because your guard is down against people who are ALSO getting better (everyone gets better overtime, very few people "plateau"). On the inverse, as soon as you say, "There's no way I can win" or "this person always beats me", you become resigned to your fate. Don't let these mental block fluster you, they can seriously hurt your game when you should be thinking about your options and strats.

On the MU front, Sheik and ZSS are very similar, and it sounds like this player has found a good counter strat for you specifically. Try mixing things up, don't autopilot, even ask the guy for help with friendlies. You'll both learn, and he can tell you what he's punishing. Hope that helps! =]

 

[FirestormNeos]

So what characters should I pick when I need a Sheik counter?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Ness is one of the easiest ones imo.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Ness is one of the easiest ones imo.

I can see Ness beating Shiek but can you explain that matchup a bit? Is it simply that Ness has the range and frame data to deal with Shiek rushdown and kills way easier?

 

[BigHairyFart]

Basically. I'd say that Sheik wins the matchup, but the Sheik has to be really on point to do so.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So what characters should I pick when I need a Sheik counter?

Yoshi. Ness is annoying but I believe he's not really all that tough for sheik. Yoshi on the other hand, just beats her out on-paper and in my experience, in practice.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I can see Ness beating Shiek but can you explain that matchup a bit? Is it simply that Ness has the range and frame data to deal with Shiek rushdown and kills way easier?

More or less Ness has the hitboxes to either beat out Sheik's moves or trade with her all day and has a wayyyyy easier time killing than she does. He's also one of the few characters that can edgeguard Sheik really easily due to PK Thunder and if they control it properly Sheik can't really clash with it to cancel it out. Didn't really go into too much detail, but that's the basics of it.

 

[Absol]

More or less Ness has the hitboxes to either beat out Sheik's moves or trade with her all day and has a wayyyyy easier time killing than she does. He's also one of the few characters that can edgeguard Sheik really easily due to PK Thunder and if they control it properly Sheik can't really clash with it to cancel it out. Didn't really go into too much detail, but that's the basics of it.

money match me that Ness. I need to play it again.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Sure lol. Doesn't hurt to get more experience myself in both sides of the MU.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

So who are Sheik's worst matchups out of these?

-Mega Man
-Link
-Mario
-Shulk
-Palutena
-Bowser
-Sonic
-Robin

 

[WondrousMoose]

So who are Sheik's worst matchups out of these?

-Mega Man
-Link
-Mario
-Shulk
-Palutena
-Bowser
-Sonic
-Robin

I feel that Sheik has an advantage over all of those, though Mario and Sonic are probably the toughest.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So who are Sheik's worst matchups out of these?

-Mega Man
-Link
-Mario
-Shulk
-Palutena
-Bowser
-Sonic
-Robin

Easily mario and sonic. They potentially have the advantage over Sheik.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Easily mario and sonic. They potentially have the advantage over Sheik.

Dang, because out of that list, they're among the ones I use the least and probably not tournament ready. My Mario might be, but I haven't used him in a while or fought any Sheik players with Mario.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Can we talk.about the yoshi matchup? Yoshis say it's one of their worst but I'd like to hear why. Do needles detroy yoshis double jump that badly? Seems like good yoshis just air dodge to the ledge after the jump input. What else does sheik have over yoshi?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Hello, Sheikahs! The Robins are kicking off their new MU discussion thread by going over the Sheik matchup for the next week, and we'd greatly appreciate your input! Feel free to visit the barracks and discuss with us!

http://smashboards.com/threads/“the...cial-robin-match-up-discussion-thread.400205/

 

[Absol]

People having a hard time with the sonic, mario, or even the yoshi match up need to learn how to play the Hot and Cold game better. These arent hard match ups for sheik, they just make you play differently than most other MU.

 

[Illuminose]

People having a hard time with the sonic, mario, or even the yoshi match up need to learn how to play the Hot and Cold game better. These arent hard match ups for sheik, they just make you play differently than most other MU.

Can you expand on what you mean a bit? Particularly for the Yoshi matchup.

 

[Absol]

Can you expand on what you mean a bit? Particularly for the Yoshi matchup.

Yoshi's Nair is nothing but another air dodge that you just have to call out.
Throw one needle at them and I promise you that most Yoshis will be provoked to throw their egg. thats your chance to go in
Sheiks running animation has a low profile and can run under the egg arc
Fthrow > Bouncing fish works for a long time on him
Footstool his recovery
He loses super amour at around 100%. You can easily edge guard him at that point
yoshi has a terrible roll

Moving on, the only way yoshi will ever kill you is if you got greedy. Got killed by a down b? You either chased him in the air too long, or tried to grab when you shouldn't have. Got killed by fsmash? You got overzealous with fair and didnt take into consideration his drastically moved hurt box. These are the only real ways he's ever going to kill you because he isnt going to land an uair, and your moves are too quick for his usmash OoS to work. Hell its almost as if I'm talking about Luigi, but not as bad.

Play more defensively and patience. That doesnt make the match up harder, its just knowing how to play it different. You cant play the same way against every character.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Okay, I have a question. I'm an Ike main, and every Sheik I've played decimates me.

For those of you playing against Ike, what do you feel you're struggling against? I feel her Fair completely disrespects his disjoint moves, like Fair and Nair, and she cripples him in the air since he doesn't have a reliable escape option from strings.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I haven't played many Ikes, but I feel like this is a matchup where our sheer speed allows us to do basically whatever we want. To beat a Sheik, you will probably have to play very defensively, and make sure your punish game is on point, since Sheik is hard to punish anyways.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

She really is. I know they love to abuse Bouncing Fish, so Counter is an option when they recover. But beyond that, it's hard to land a hit on them. If DTilt didn't get nerfed for range, it would be easier. And as much as I'd love to jab at their dashgrab attempts, they tend to hit between the hurtbox and punish.

 

[Lawz.]

People having a hard time with the sonic, mario, or even the yoshi match up need to learn how to play the Hot and Cold game better. These arent hard match ups for sheik, they just make you play differently than most other MU.

I was just going to say there's no way Sheik has a hard time against Sonic. The character has no reliable approach against Sheik.

 

[BigHairyFart]

She really is. I know they love to abuse Bouncing Fish, so Counter is an option when they recover. But beyond that, it's hard to land a hit on them. If DTilt didn't get nerfed for range, it would be easier. And as much as I'd love to jab at their dashgrab attempts, they tend to hit between the hurtbox and punish.

Pretty sure that BF is safe on Counters, but might be wrong.

 

[Absol]

they are safe on counters

 

[ArikadoSD]

Okay, I have a question. I'm an Ike main, and every Sheik I've played decimates me.

For those of you playing against Ike, what do you feel you're struggling against? I feel her Fair completely disrespects his disjoint moves, like Fair and Nair, and she cripples him in the air since he doesn't have a reliable escape option from strings.

Forget winning against Sheik with Ike. The matchup is most likely 95:5. It's literally impossible.

Sorry to be so blunt about it lol but Ike really can't do anything, even his Aether can be interrupted with needles (because his head always pops above the ledge where needles can hit him) meaning he can't recover low so reliably.

 

[Illuminose]

I haven't played many Ikes, but I feel like this is a matchup where our sheer speed allows us to do basically whatever we want. To beat a Sheik, you will probably have to play very defensively, and make sure your punish game is on point, since Sheik is hard to punish anyways.

This doesn't really work against Sheik. Sheik can just be content to play the matchup defensively by camping with needles and essentially autowin.

 

[Jlp]

@ Lawz. You said that Sonic has no safe approach. They're aren't many Sonic players were I live so I'm not use to the match up but I've seen many do well and get pretty far in tournaments. I've never really played one but I know there'll be a couple in an upcoming tournament I'm going to.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how does a Sheik fight a Sonic?

 

[ArikadoSD]

@ Lawz. You said that Sonic has no safe approach. They're aren't many Sonic players were I live so I'm not use to the match up but I've seen many do well and get pretty far in tournaments. I've never really played one but I know they'll be a couple in an upcoming tournament I'm going to.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how does a Sheik fight a Sonic?

In a nutshell, playing safe. Sonic has a really lousy grab so they shouldn't be spamming it too much, meaning shielding most of his attacks is a good option. Shield his spindashes all the way through and try to see through their mixups like spindash to homing attack. Needles should be used to keep distance. other than that don't feel afraid to go to town with fair strings cuz he only has frame 6 nair and frame 5-6 fair meaning he mostly can't break out of strings like luigi/mario/yoshi can.

sorry can't really help much with anything else

 

[Illuminose]

@ Lawz. You said that Sonic has no safe approach. They're aren't many Sonic players were I live so I'm not use to the match up but I've seen many do well and get pretty far in tournaments. I've never really played one but I know they'll be a couple in an upcoming tournament I'm going to.

So I guess what I'm asking is, how does a Sheik fight a Sonic?

Something Arikado didn't mention is using needles to interrupt spin dash. Even one needle will totally stop spin dash. In general, make sure you shield the spin dashes/homing attacks and punish off of those. You have to push your advantage when you have the chance to get a punish.