Ninja Clan Here We Stand! Sheik Match-Up Thread

[Torterra]

I'm not sure if this would help anyone, but Sheik has custom needles (2nd needles, I forget the name) that can actually go through Luma to hit Rosalina

 

[WondrousMoose]

I'm not sure if this would help anyone, but Sheik has custom needles (2nd needles, I forget the name) that can actually go through Luma to hit Rosalina

Penetrating Needles. Yeah, they're a nice way to poke at Rosalina.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Penetrating needles are fun until you realize opponent also has an amazing projectile, which is her custom starbit side B that sends out 1 starbit across the entire stage.

 

[Torterra]

Penetrating needles are fun until you realize opponent also has an amazing projectile, which is her custom starbit side B that sends out 1 starbit across the entire stage.

Yes, that does seem tough to deal with. Also her Luma Teleport is tough to deal with and hard to see coming. I could help you reach some ways to deal with it if you want, unless you have tips on it.

 

[Nu~]

Hello shiek mains! The Pac players will be discussing the Shiek matchup until 4/6.

Come on down and show us what you can do!
http://smashboards.com/threads/pac-...ion-thread-shiek-i-want-a-f-air-fight.390418/

 

[New_Dumal]

I'm getting a hard time against Diddy.It's not the Hoo haa.
Sheik being light and if you DI properly, you can avoid take damage after reasonable %'s.
But... Diddy usually grabs too much, so I started to spotdodge like a noob.
Then I get Smashed because he is FSmash is godlike in power and duration... and I die.
Sometimes I can change my mindset and stop spotdodging... and start to be grabbed like there's no tomorrow.

Please, someone can help me ? Seriously thinking in changing for Ness in this MU.
I feel this is only even in a level of gameplay I didn't reach yet (and it's truly very high/metagame).

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

I'm getting a hard time against Diddy.It's not the Hoo haa.
Sheik being light and if you DI properly, you can avoid take damage after reasonable %'s.
But... Diddy usually grabs too much, so I started to spotdodge like a noob.
Then I get Smashed because he is FSmash is godlike in power and duration... and I die.
Sometimes I can change my mindset and stop spotdodging... and start to be grabbed like there's no tomorrow.

Please, someone can help me ? Seriously thinking in changing for Ness in this MU.
I feel this is only even in a level of gameplay I didn't reach yet (and it's truly very high/metagame).

From what it looks like to me, your problem seems to be more of a player problem than a match up one if your main problem is that you can`t react/adapt or compete with your opponent`s mixups. However Sheik has quite a lot of options which can make this easier.
I think the reason why he is able to come up to you easily enough to force a decision from you is that you are giving him too much room to move around and/or you aren't moving around enough yourself. You just to make sure that you are harder to approach. Move around a lot. Don't let him corner you. Keep throwing out Fairs and try not to be too predictable. I found short-hop fair to double jab really useful against people I thought were coming for the grab. With Sheik you also want to make sure that you are keeping some pressure up too. Your mixups are quite good as well, since you have so many options.

 

[New_Dumal]

From what it looks like to me, your problem seems to be more of a player problem than a match up one ...

But what should I do in this MU ?
I was shocked when don't find it in the OP.
There's someone experienced enough or a good video about how to handle this ?
I already watch Zero explanation about this MU in both sides and couldn't apply too much.
If I record a video with the two of us playing it would probably be easier to get help, right ?
I really had a player problem against him, that cames from Brawl.
I gave up playing Pit x Snake in Brawl and only start to handle well against him with MK.
I don't want to change again, but I'm afraid about it be needed.

 

[?.?]

Learn to adapt and keep the Diddy out of neutral, lol. This is a problem you'll only be able to fix via practice and determination, sure you could change characters as a remedy as well but that's only a temporary solution and more of a means around it. I guarantee you switching characters will only bring more bad MUs. Just master the character you like and you'll do fine, as for grabbing we have tons of methods to beat that and supreme did a fine job of listing most of them. The key to your problem is "Don't give him the room to throw grabs out" whether that's by punishing them until he stops or keeping him in disadvantage.

Honestly people switching characters because they can't do something with a character infuriates me, it's like the age old caterpillar speech. Sure you could help him out of his cocoon/switch characters, but he'll/you'll only be weaker because of it. I mean I've struggled quite a bit against Ness/Luigi in smash 4 and I'm at the point where the MU is silly easy most of the time for me. Regardless best of luck, and I'm sure you'll figure it out

Last little bit, yes giving us a video even if it's only one match would help truckloads.

 

[Noso]

I may have missed it, but does anyone have any Advice on fighting R.O.Bs? It seems like everything I try gets stuffed.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Yeah changing mains because of a few bad matchups sucks imo. I struggle so hard against Mario/Luigi/Yoshi/Rosalina (a bit) but I'm not willing to change my mains because of that since I spent a lot of time on Sheik, and she's still the smoothest and most seamless character out of all the cast lol.

 

[FalKoopa]

We plumbers are discussing the ninja this week. Click the Warp pipe to teleport!

 

[Noso]

Yeah changing mains because of a few bad matchups sucks imo. I struggle so hard against Mario/Luigi/Yoshi/Rosalina (a bit) but I'm not willing to change my mains because of that since I spent a lot of time on Sheik, and she's still the smoothest and most seamless character out of all the cast lol.

I agree with you about the play style behind sheik, Before I took her up I was a link main, but I realized during one fight that I was ignoring most of the meta game rules to get victories with him when i went up against someone really good and got my fudge pushed in. So I tried sheik after reading the basics about the neutral, reads, etc and it felt right.

That being said, I'm still getting better at applying the basics to get the wins in Bad MUs like Rosa/diddy/and some times luigi. Just sucks not having the weight that link did and dying A LOT earlier.

 

[SalsaSavant]

We're talking about Sheik over at the Dedede boards.

We would value your input on this matchup! Thanks,

 

[ArikadoSD]

Some stuff about the Mario, and possibly Luigi matchup: Do not charge in. I repeat, do NOT approach directly.

Play it patiently. Play the needles game. Well-spaced Fairs, safe punishes, never approach directly. Do not challenge them from the air because their Usmash WILL outprioritize whatever aerial you throw. In fact, their Usmash is the thing you need to look for the most, it's ridiculous and covers literally all spots, behind, above, and in front of Mario/Luigi, don't challenge it. Just stay away, throw needles, and if they approach try to get them with well-spaced fairs. Nair is another thing you have to watch out for, it can break combos easily so you gotta opt for a reset more often, or space your fairs in a combo well.

I'm sad to say this but honestly camping is our best option against these two, approaching directly is suicide. Their Usmash is too good, and nair can cockblock anything. Playing patiently, possibly timing out (I'm not afraid to do this myself although I'm ashamed to say that) is not a bad option either. Just spam needles and wait for a safe punish.

 

[Jaxas]

Some stuff about the Mario, and possibly Luigi matchup: Do not charge in. I repeat, do NOT approach directly.

Play it patiently. Play the needles game. Well-spaced Fairs, safe punishes, never approach directly. Do not challenge them from the air because their Usmash WILL outprioritize whatever aerial you throw. In fact, their Usmash is the thing you need to look for the most, it's ridiculous and covers literally all spots, behind, above, and in front of Mario/Luigi, don't challenge it. Just stay away, throw needles, and if they approach try to get them with well-spaced fairs. Nair is another thing you have to watch out for, it can break combos easily so you gotta opt for a reset more often, or space your fairs in a combo well.

I'm sad to say this but honestly camping is our best option against these two, approaching directly is suicide. Their Usmash is too good, and nair can cockblock anything. Playing patiently, possibly timing out (I'm not afraid to do this myself although I'm ashamed to say that) is not a bad option either. Just spam needles and wait for a safe punish.

Just expanding on this slightly, but during their Usmash their head is fully Invincible. Definitely don't challenge it!

Otherwise, I don't think this MU requires us not to really approach, it just requires us to back off once our combos turn into strings, and be mindful of the Usmash; it's not safe on shield, and it can be ducked(->Dtilted) under on at least one side or the other (don't remember which one, though). Spacing also becomes even more important than normal.
I play against a decent Luigi fairly often, and this is what I've noticed myself; on the other hand, camping Luigi absolutely wrecks him, since he's only a 'good character' once he's in grab range, but he has to get there first...

 

[?.?]

If you're in front of mario and he's charging U-smash you can just crouch walk towards him and d-tilt... He has a huge blind spot in front of it. Against luigi the secret is to get him in the air and make him commit to an aerial, once he's thrown one out almost any of ours will outspace... Just be prepared for the occasional down+b mixup

 

[BJN39]

Hello lovely sheiks! ^^

The Zelda boards are currently discussing the Sheik MU, and we'd love input from Sheik players on the MU as well. You wouldn't say no to yourself, right? :3

Click Zelda to Teleport right to the Zelda MU thread!

 

[Tony Ray]

My friend mains Marth and Lucina, I can beat him, but it's getting harder to do every game we play. Any advice? Thanks in advance.

 

[ArikadoSD]

My friend mains Marth and Lucina, I can beat him, but it's getting harder to do every game we play. Any advice? Thanks in advance.

Marth is a midweight character (iirc.. could be wrong) that's not short and doesn't have an attack that comes out on frame 1-5.. what that means is that it's a lot easier to combo Marcina than say, Mario or Luigi who have a frame 2 nair. Marth's fastest move frame-wise is Up B which comes out at frame 5 or 6.

That said, don't be afraid to combo them around and juggle them, they mostly can't really do anything. They have terrible landing lag on all their options so try to capitalize on that and punish them. They'll be trying to space you around, and they have no projectile, so you can safely just throw needles at them and force an approach, make them do something stupid, and then capitalize on that. They do have superior range though so watch out for that, but other than that it should be a fairly easy matchup.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hello Sheik mains,

We've started preliminary discussion over at the Lylat system with this MU:
vs

Feel free to stop by Lylat by clicking here and share with us your wisdom, the one you've acquired from the Triforce.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Something to say about the Ike matchup... like it couldn't get any worse... well, sadly, it's gotten worse for Ike lol.

I was watching Mr. R's stream earlier today and he played against Ryo (Ike main from Florida I think), and he was throwing needles as Ike was recovering with Aether and it actually interrupts Aether and Ike is forced to Up B again.. rinse and repeat, until Ike dies.

Ike's head like has to go above the ledge in order for it to grab it and so needles WILL hit him and interrupt Aether.

Holy ****.

 

[Jaxas]

Something to say about the Ike matchup... like it couldn't get any worse... well, sadly, it's gotten worse for Ike lol.

I was watching Mr. R's stream earlier today and he played against Ryo (Ike main from Florida I think), and he was throwing needles as Ike was recovering with Aether and it actually interrupts Aether and Ike is forced to Up B again.. rinse and repeat, until Ike dies.

Ike's head like has to go above the ledge in order for it to grab it and so needles WILL hit him and interrupt Aether.

Holy ****.

This is both beautiful and terrible. I'll certainly remember it for the future... Does it work with just a single needle, or do you need more?

 

[ArikadoSD]

This is both beautiful and terrible. I'll certainly remember it for the future... Does it work with just a single needle, or do you need more?

I mean unless you're frame perfect and can land a needle the moment he sticks his head up then sure, but generally speaking throwing like 4 needles would have much higher chances of at least 1 needle hitting Ike, so yeah. You have time to charge a few needles from what I saw.

Edit: I found the video for this

http://www.twitch.tv/sidestepsmash/b/646619613

2:21:38

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Didn't realize this was a thing lol.

EDIT: You can also get a nair OoS too for a gimp, but the timing is tight.

 

[Noso]

Aside from needles (kinda) is there anything we can use to challenge R.O.B's Arm Rotor?

 

[Jaxas]

Aside from needles (kinda) is there anything we can use to challenge R.O.B's Arm Rotor?

Can't you just jump and falling Nair/Fiar him from above? The hitbox is only on the sides, right?

 

[BigHairyFart]

Can't you just jump and falling Nair/Fiar him from above? The hitbox is only on the sides, right?

He can angle it, though, so the positioning would likely be rather precise.

 

[Jaxas]

He can angle it, though, so the positioning would likely be rather precise.

Ahh, yeah that makes sense; it's been a while since I fought a R.O.B.

Hmm... why not just wait it out and then punish with a grab? I seem to remember him posing (like after DK's UpB) briefly when he's done spinning; otherwise you could maybe try to sponge-nade it? Not sure how well that'd work seeing as it's a reflector (and you'd have to aim to grenade correctly as well of course).
If you have no other options you could always Dair as well; you don't have a large horizontal hitbox with it, so you can hit him on the head where his arms don't cover (unless he does turn that far, which would surprise me a lot).

 

[?.?]

Rob is one of my casual secondaries and Rotor arm has terrible lag on it, the reflect is kinda weird and isn't super precise (I believe only the hands reflect). If you ever see a rob Rotor arm just shield the hits and punish appropriately after, if he's spamming it over and over just needle him between each one lol. Oh and be aware he can extend the hits on it by mashing B.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Yeah, the best option is to wait it out in shield, unless you're close to breaking it, of course.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

You can just shield it and punish it or avoid it and punish it. ROB doesn't really need to do that move in this MU anyways, because a gyro alone stops all grounded needles and aerial needles are really telegraphed.

 

[Jlp]

Where is Duck Hunt on the list?..

My flatmate mains him, he's very good. We both struggle against each other and a lot of the time it just come down to who had the better game (or got lucky).

So far I've learned that

• Hitting the can with a single needle will stall the opponents use of it, my flatmate says it's very annoying
• 3 needles will break the clay pigeon (it helps to have more as the clay rises and dips)
• Sheik can crouch under every gunman but the sombrero/poncho gunman (who is also the strongest)
  
• 5 or 6 needles will take down the gunman (a dash attack will also do it, they are quite weak)
• Punishing his recovery with a stage spike is prey easy so (as always) get him off stage
• When you are on low % Duck Hunt can very easily Clay > Grab > Fair so watch out. It will push you across the stage, does about 20-30% and leads into a spike if your not careful.
• Duck hunt Uair is a very powerful kill move and has a lot of priority so you want to avoid getting caught above him.
  
• His forward and down smash look very similar when being charged and because his forward smash extends in length the longer its charged knowing the difference between them is crucial. The forward charge has a 'sparkle' above and to the side of the dogs head, the down charge's 'sparkle' is closer to the ground and in front of his head

I realise that most of this is info on duck hunt and not an actual game plan, I just wanted to share my knowledge.

How do I take on a character like Duck Hunt?

I'm looking for some advice into what I could do to tip the scale my way.

 

[ArikadoSD]

@ Jlp like you said, gimping DHD's recovery is really easy so always capitalize on that and punish it. Generally speaking you should always rush down zoners like DHD, but sometimes you need to play the camping game, that's alright because needles > every projectile DHD has in terms of range. Don't give him too much space unless absolutely necessary though, otherwise he'll just throw out a can, set up a gunman, and side B to try and get you to approach and trap in the air with an aerial or something.

The matchup should be easy and in Sheik's favour as far as I'm concerned, I really can't say anything besides rush him down, and if the situation calls for it needle camp (like say if you're at 130% and have a stock advantage). Always try and punish his recovery too, and don't underestimate his normal close-quarters game.

 

[sGale]

Ok, so, the Mario MU: What do I do except camp him and get small 2-hit comboes? I feel so useless in this MU.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Ok, so, the Mario MU: What do I do except camp him and get small 2-hit comboes? I feel so useless in this MU.

Copying my post from the other thread:

Sheik vs. Mario is a matchup I've been trying to heavily analyze this past while. At first it seemed to me like it was one of the few matchups that are (slightly) not in Sheik's favour, but now I think I might reconsider that after adapting and really figuring out how to deal with Mario.

Let me break down Mario's best options for you:

Neutral Air - this is a move Mario will use to break out of Sheik's bread and butter combos and strings; be very aware of it. It comes out frame 3 and is very fast and lasts a while. This is the sole reason Sheik should be resetting her combos and not going for long strings. It is also a very safe way for Mario to approach, provided he's throwing fireballs while doing it.

Down Air - A good option for Mario to land, could be a mix up from the usual nair.

Fireballs - Probably the most annoying thing Mario has and I'll talk about this in a bit.

Down Smash - Extremely good; Mario will go for it if they predict a roll or not sure what to do, little lag and covers lots of space, in addition to being powerful. He might use this in ledges predicting a normal get up or a roll; be aware of it.

Up Smash - EXTREMELY GOOD. This move is probably Mario's best move and up there as one of the best smash attacks in the game. Be EXTREMELY aware of it and this is pretty much the only reason Sheik should NOT be approaching from the air, which I'll cover in a bit.

Forward Smash - Not really threatening because its slow and has little range, but it's powerful.

With that being said, Sheik's neutral game in this matchup is very even. It's better if you stay back and play the needles game; charge needles whenever there is a chance, and throw them whenever you can (beware of Cape, it can be annoying, but if you read it you can shoot them afterwards, there's plenty of lag on the cape). Don't mindlessly approach, in fact, I'd advise to not approach at all unless you know it's safe. Mario can do two things here: play the camping game like you are and shoot fireballs; this isn't so bad, Sheik will win because she has the superior projectile, bigger range, and fireballs can easily be blocked anyway, but it could be slightly annoying. The other option is Mario approaching; this is what you want, to force an approach. If they approach you can try going in then, but beware of nair and always reset your combos by either pulling back and charging needles or getting a grab or something.

When they approach, they will always be looking for a grab (or with nair as I said before) because that's where Mario excels at, and especially at lower percents where they're hungry for the 50% combo from dthrow -> utilt -> uair shenanigans (which is easily escapable if you block/roll at very low percents or double jump at higher percents).

Usmash is the sole reason Sheik should never be approaching from the air. It's an extremely safe option for Mario to go for and it covers all the space around Mario (up, in front, and behind), has good range, and is an incredible kill move. This is mostly useless information but Sheik can actually duck and not get hit but only in front of Mario, she'll get hit if she's behind him. Don't challenge Mario from the air, but you can challenge him while he's in the air because Sheik's fair or nair outranges Mario's nair, which is good to keep in mind.

Don't try to go for unsafe things such as dthrow to Vanish trap which you can get punished for, or bouncing fish reads on the ground which will leave you with a lot of lag and a big opportunity for the opponent to punish you. Try to gimp Mario with vertical needles, nair, or the way you'd normally gimp with Sheik anyway.

Tomahawk grabs (faking an approach from the air to bair shield, then quickly dropping and grabbing them) is a good option provided you're grabbing them for the back so that they can't quickly ftilt, dtilt or anything like that, so there's that. Sheik's bair is also very strong in this matchup because it's a really strong move with a lot of range, so you might wanna practice your RAR skills.



tl;dr:
Camp with needles. Never approach from the air because of Usmash. Beware of Nair and always reset your combos and strings. Play extra campy and never approach unless its safe, this matchup demands it.

Luigi is the same btw, except in that matchup you don't have to be aware of the cape and fireballs are a lot less annoying because of their short range. Mario and Luigi are two characters that I found force me to change my playstyle from being mostly aggressive to very campy and defensive, only taking the safe options.

If you have any questions do ask me and hopefully I'll have an answer. I really hope this helped you, and sorry if it didn't :o

I would post a video or two of me playing against a rather decent Mario as an example of what I'm saying but I kinda don't have access to my WiiU and I'm a bit lazy .-.

 

[Jlp]

@ ArikadoSD thanks, I often try to play Sheiks 'game' a against DHD but I begin to lose the match when I become over aggressive and start making mistakes. DHD seems to thrive off one mistake, it can lead to a heap of damage.
I'll try to rush him down on low % and play the needle/safer game on higher %.
Thanks Again

 

[BigHairyFart]

How do I fight ROB? I feel like everything I do gets shut down by either his gyro or his laser.

 

[ArikadoSD]

How do I fight ROB? I feel like everything I do gets shut down by either his gyro or his laser.

Like DHD, and pretty much all zoners, rushing down is what I feel to be the right thing to do. Never give them enough space, but if you feel the need to retreat and camp then go ahead. That's what makes Sheik so good in my opinion besides being fast, lagless, and mobile: she can rush you down real hard and leave you no space to move and combo the poo out of you, or she can choose to sit back and camp with one of the best projectiles in the game.

ROB is combo food. He's a bit heavy and has no combo breaker. We eat his kind for all 3 meals of the day every day. He's also easy to gimp, but you gotta watch out for his aerials. Don't try to be risky and do moves that can be punished, try to space your aerials well on shield or otherwise you'll get grabbed and ROB's dthrow to uair does a lot of damage.

When recovering, watch out for the hitboxes ROB lays out. He can read the bouncing fish and do a bair and its hitbox lasts relatively long and hits hard.

His gyros and lazers are usually really easy to see coming so you shouldn't have problems blocking those.

Haven't really faced many ROBs as I used to lately but generally speaking I'd start the match out by directly running and using bouncing fish. At that time they're either getting out their gyro or shielding, both would be safe to use bouncing fish on as you either hit him or hit the shield and bounce back. You also have enough time to react accordingly if they actually decide to move and not stand and charge a gyro or something.

Rob will be using nair to approach and cover his landing options so always watch out for that. Uair is also really strong so don't go over him too much.

 

[?.?]

Rob is also the only character in the game who's recovery doesn't replenish immediately, if you keep him off stage he'll be forced to recover quicker and quicker.