Ninja Clan Here We Stand! Sheik Match-Up Thread

[Jlp]

Thanks @ ArikadoSD & @ Illuminose

From what I've seen on YouTube and the last tournament I was in most Sonics are doing very similar things, lots of spin dashing and often are the ones approaching.

Do you think it's worth trying to out approach Sonic and be the aggressor or play off Sonic's approach?

 

[Illuminose]

Let him approach you and punish that.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Forget winning against Sheik with Ike. The matchup is most likely 95:5. It's literally impossible.

Sorry to be so blunt about it lol but Ike really can't do anything, even his Aether can be interrupted with needles (because his head always pops above the ledge where needles can hit him) meaning he can't recover low so reliably.

Well, thanks for your input, but I honestly refuse to believe that it's impossible.

 

[ShinRamen]

If only that VoD of what Ramin did to Ryo was still up

 

[ArikadoSD]

If only that VoD of what Ramin did to Ryo was still up

What do u mean?

 

[ShinRamen]

Just to demonstrate that the moment Ike is off stage, Sheik literally can mash B for the stock. I understand character loyalty, but Ike vs any top level Sheik is pretty sad to watch.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Not sure if this was known or not, but I was labbing it up today and found that you can needle glide off the edge, then fidget into a bouncing fish extremely low, and make it back even without landing the BF. I think it could be very useful since it lets you edgegaurd very low very quickly, and covers more horizontal ground than runoff BF does. Additionally, the more you shorten the BF, the deeper down you can safely go, or you can B-Reverse the BF and potentially stage spike.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Just to demonstrate that the moment Ike is off stage, Sheik literally can mash B for the stock. I understand character loyalty, but Ike vs any top level Sheik is pretty sad to watch.

Do you mean this?

http://www.twitch.tv/sidestepsmash/b/646619613

at 2:21:38

 

[ShinRamen]

It tells me "The page could not be found, or has been deleted by its owner."

But yeah, I'm pretty sure you know the one.
Ike is perfect for sheik to combo and force off stage, and you can needle Ike's aether to death. I mean, it can be done with a succession of great reads since the kill percents (at least from knockback) are so skewed, but it'd be a tough road.

 

[Lawz.]

In a nutshell, playing safe. Sonic has a really lousy grab so they shouldn't be spamming it too much, meaning shielding most of his attacks is a good option. Shield his spindashes all the way through and try to see through their mixups like spindash to homing attack. Needles should be used to keep distance. other than that don't feel afraid to go to town with fair strings cuz he only has frame 6 nair and frame 5-6 fair meaning he mostly can't break out of strings like luigi/mario/yoshi can.

sorry can't really help much with anything else

Sonics metagame is all about grabs. Uthrow > uair strings work well on sheik. At higher percents sonic can spring after uthrow to chase sheik higher.

And while he can't combo break with an aerial, he can spring away.

Overall if the Sonic likes to approach with spindash/spin charge, needles stop Sonic dead in his tracks.

Shield the spindash and watch what his direction, you can OoS aerial punish. However, if they catch on they will usually switch up with either spring after spindash or homing attack.

When you see homing attack, don't shield it, roll or spotdodge so he's forced to slam into the ground, giving you a free punish. Guaranteed

If you notice he springs away, watch the direction he's facing as they LOVE to dair after spring, the height allows him to autocancel the dair and have no lag. But if you know where he will land, you can camp his landing with usmash.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Sonics metagame is all about grabs. Uthrow > uair strings work well on sheik. At higher percents sonic can spring after uthrow to chase sheik higher.

And while he can't combo break with an aerial, he can spring away.

Overall if the Sonic likes to approach with spindash/spin charge, needles stop Sonic dead in his tracks.

Shield the spindash and watch what his direction, you can OoS aerial punish. However, if they catch on they will usually switch up with either spring after spindash or homing attack.

When you see homing attack, don't shield it, roll or spotdodge so he's forced to slam into the ground, giving you a free punish. Guaranteed

If you notice he springs away, watch the direction he's facing as they LOVE to dair after spring, the height allows him to autocancel the dair and have no lag. But if you know where he will land, you can camp his landing with usmash.

That's interesting :o thanks, didn't know that. That actually made me realize how some characters have good up Bs that can actually allow them to escape strings; Little Mac, Marth, and now apparently Sonic all have Up Bs that help them with that.

Guess I wasn't facing any good Sonics then lol, sorry

 

[DavemanCozy]

Hello Sheik mains,

We've started preliminary discussion over at the Lylat system with this MU:
vs

Feel free to stop by Lylat by clicking here and share with us your wisdom, the one you've acquired from the Triforce.

With the 1.0.6 patch and the nerf to B-air, we've started rediscussing this MU
vs

Click here if you would like to join in.

 

[Trifroze]

COME AHWN

Falcon boards have started discussing Sheik, dropping in would be greatly appreciated:

http://smashboards.com/threads/come-ahwn-captain-falcon-mu-thread-lap-3-sheik.399692/

 

[PK Gaming]

We're discussing the Sheik vs Robin matchup HERE

We'd greatly appreciate if some o you guys took the time to discuss it

 

[YoHeKing]

Hello all! Im the only(or few) yoshis of smashboards that thinks yoshi VS sheik is a even MU if played right. I have a unique yoshi with over 200 hours of battle time and over 10,000 battles so I know quite alot about yoshi. Would anyone be up for some games with me so I can either change the minds of the MU of yoshi vs sheik? Or so I can fully understand why people think its uneven.

Most of you will ask if I have played good sheiks and I will say Yes and ask if you have played a good yoshi.

Im not being egotistical but im simple trying to get you guys to play me.

 

[Danimal197]

I think the matchup actually favors yoshi. I only play in offline tournaments though. (I also absolutely refuse to camp)

 

[Illuminose]

After kinda figuring out the Yoshi matchup, I've realized that it absolutely favors Sheik. You want the range of normal needles for the matchup because they allow Sheik to easily outrange Yoshi's egg projectile, which means you can basically camp Yoshi as Sheik. If you get Yoshi to nair, it's punishable. Sheik is one of the few characters also that has the ability to go off stage and clip Yoshi's jump while still getting back.

 

[YoHeKing]

Well yoshi shouldnt be using eggs against sheik in the first place... nair dosnt get as far as yoshis fair.

All im asking is for battles. I have a anti sheik style of play. All the sheiks ive faced offline dont worry me.

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Hey Sheik boards, so I was wondering a few things on what you guys see on Sheik's match ups. Particularly, if Sheik wins (or has the advantage) in said match ups. I'd really like to hear your opinions if possible!

Rosalina
Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
Yoshi
Villager

With customs on.

What do you all think?

 

[Illuminose]

The Luigi matchup is one I think Sheik wins solidly. Due to Sheik's mobility and safe on shield options, it's really difficult for Luigi to keep up with Sheik and moreover get the grabs he actually needs to get anything done. Sheik also has the ability to clip Luigi's side B quickly with bouncing fish. Sheik doesn't even really have to approach Luigi because needles far outrange fireballs.

Against Rosalina, Penetrating Needles are a must as they bypass Luma and thus allow you to get actual damage on Rosalina with them. Rosalina struggles against rushdown characters in general, and Sheik really is no different although spacing around Luma can be a bit awkward. You basically have to be a bit safe around Luma as far as your approaches are concerned and absolutely maximize your punishes while keeping uair fresh. Rosalina dies to uair and bouncing fish earlier than many characters due to her light weight so Sheik has actually a fairly easy time killing in this matchup imo. It's an advantage toward Sheik imo, nowhere near a matchup that Sheik outright wins but one where she has an advantage.

 

[Jlp]

@ TSM ZeRo I think Sheik stands up well against Villager and Rosalina because the rush down breaks up their game. Villager has that Timber Counter that trips (Down 2) which is pretty horrible but because Sheik has so many movement options and attacks out of these options it doesn't effect her as much as other characters.

I actually hate the Luigi match up. Pretty much just because of his Nair.

I believe the Yoshi match up has been discussed ^further up^.

 

[YoHeKing]

I think it annoying EVERY sheik and yoshi main I come across thinks its basically impossible for Yoshi to win. All the yoshis that approach sheik use really crappy moves that should not be used in the MU. Then hardly go for the edgaurds and they think its impossible to edguard a sheik when its not. Bouncing fish is very easy to react too and even if it hits yoshi its not going to kill him while hes edgaurding. Well spaced fairs seem kinda hard to punish for sheik and well timed egg lays are great.

Its like im the only one who has hope in the MU. I was hoping to fight some sheiks here for some research. All the sheik players I know I beat so I would like to meet new sheik players.

 

[SheikIsBae]

Agreed w/ @ YoHeKing about the Sheik vs Yoshi MU being even. As long as both players are at the same skill level then it's def even. We play all the time and he knows the MU well actually. I've even learned a lot of things about Yoshi from him, you guys could too. You guys should play him! He's beaten some pretty good Sheik mains with his Yoshi.

 

[YoHeKing]

I disliked the sheik MU alot back then. Insted of loosing hope I studyed and played alot of sheiks. I figured a pretty good playstyle against them.

I need to play some sheiks here to help all my yoshi players out. Ill be recording. Alot of the yoshi users in the yoshi boards act like there absolutely hopeless against sheik.

 

[SheikIsBae]

I don't think needle camping would be effective against a Yoshi that knows what he's doing tbh.

 

[YoHeKing]

I agree. Theres no way a sheik could be able to need camp a good Yoshi at all. He has a ton of air speed and theres no way needles beat eggs(ssb4 logic xD). Needles just go one way on ground and and diagonal in air. A full charged neutral B could definitely leave a sheik player open with yoshis deadly air speed and pretty big hitboxes. Funny thing is some sheiks try to use needles in air when its obvious enough to use my 2nd jump armor as an advantage for a free hit.

I should test out using 2nd jump as an approach at low %. Could result in many free hits and pressure? I would like to test this out. His 2nd jump armor can last all the way untill you touch the ground or expire in a mid attack sometimes.

So I noticed yoshis 2nd armor can last under 90% from a fair without a flintch from a non raged sheik. 100% somewere above yoshi can survive without a flinch and up smash flinches at 40% for yoshi. IDK about you but seems like sheik could not stop a yoshi going for then edgaurds or strings from the air. He could use this to bait out sheiks attacks and get an easy aireal. Definitely not an extreme MU breaking thing or trick but it definitely helps even out the MU even further.

 

[Caryslan]

Forget winning against Sheik with Ike. The matchup is most likely 95:5. It's literally impossible.

Sorry to be so blunt about it lol but Ike really can't do anything, even his Aether can be interrupted with needles (because his head always pops above the ledge where needles can hit him) meaning he can't recover low so reliably.

I play Ike as a main, but even I gave up trying to use him against Shiek. Its not a matter of reading your oppoent, Shiek just has the options to hold Ike at bay with Needles, and the speed to punish every single thing he tries. Its not a matter of simply avoiding laggy moves against her. There is no safe option Ike can try that works. Even counter is all but useless since all of her moves come out so quickly, Ike never has a chance to activate the counter.

I play good Shiek players online, and they dominate me with no issue. With Ike, its not a matter of understanding a matchup. It is virtually unwinnable with Ike.

The unwinnable matchup with Ike got so bad, I started playing Lucina against Shiek players. I'm not going to say that I win those matches on a regular basis, but Lucina seems to do much better against Shiek then Ike does. Her spacing game is good enough to hold Shiek at bay to some degree, and it seems to be harder for Shiek to punish her attack. Not to menton, Shield Breaker is an awesome move, because it lets Lucina safely poke Shiek from a distance and punish her if she mistimes a bouncing fish or the Gernades(don't know what that move is called. Its her new down special)

Lucina's counter is also a saving grace, because it makes it easier to disrupt Shiek's attacks.

But Shiek is still a nightmare to play against. Most of my normal mains(Ganondorf, Ike) are useless against her and I've even had trouble with Fox against her.

Lucina is the only character that I use that seems to get decent results against her.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Actually, Bouncing Fish is the down special. The grenade(officially called Burst Grenade) is the side special.

 

[YoHeKing]

Question. In big tourneys what characters seem to beat sheik besides diddy.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Rosalina gives me some trouble.

 

[SheikIsBae]

Rosalina gives me some trouble.

What are you having trouble with? Approaching, comboing, or KOing?
Or is it Luma? Haha.

 

[YoHeKing]

I thought sheik did good against rosalina?

But then again I disagree with alot of the bad MUs for characters.

All the sheik players that added me ill be up for battles most likely saturday if im feeling it. Ill be recording.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Approaching is my problem, which then means that comboing and killing are also difficult.

 

[SheikIsBae]

Approaching is my problem, which then means that comboing and killing are also difficult.

I try to chip away at Luma's HP with needles at first then approach with a N-Air or F-Air. Since F-Air has no end lag it'll be safe on shield if you space it right. And if Rosalina goes for a grab that's free damage right there.

Standing in front of Luma and beating it with Tilts is good too. It'll drain it's HP + Rosalina will pull it away and that'll be the time to get in there and do some damage.

Needles are your friend against Luma. Rosalina will eventually use Down-B if you needle camp though so I don't recommend that. Just keep them charged and patiently approach with short hop mind games + short hop N-Air/F-Air. And tilts.

Edit: Running into shield is a good option too I think. I'll have to try that out.

 

[Daymaster]

Rosoluma is probably one of Sheik' s most difficult MUs, I think. If you don't always stay where Luma isn't, punishes from her are very strong. Since Luma has no shield, I often BF off of Rosolina' s and hit Luma with the second kick. Needles are also a help, too. Just focus on Luma unless you are punishing Rosolina.

 

[YoHeKing]

Its easy to bait out rosalinas down B. Use needles as an approach if you can but not to close. They should use down B after adapting and you can get a free attack. Wouldnt recomend doing this often though.

 

[BigHairyFart]

So would you recommend Needle Storm for high Luma damage, or Penetrating Needles for Rosalina damage?

 

[Daymaster]

So would you recommend Needle Storm for high Luma damage, or Penetrating Needles for Rosalina damage?

I'd go Neelde Storm for sure. Just get rid of Luma as fast as possible.

 

[SheikIsBae]

Yeah def needle storm. Once Luma is out of the way it'll be easier to approach Rosalina.

Remember to keep your UAir fresh. At high percents it'll take Rosalina out easily since she's so light.

 

[Daymaster]

Yeah def needle storm. Once Luma is out of the way it'll be easier to approach Rosalina.

Remember to keep your UAir fresh. At high percents it'll take Rosalina out easily since she's so light.

Her hight also hinders her, as it makes her susceptible to dash-in Up Smash. This is one of my most-used punishes for a KO on her.