Ninja Clan Here We Stand! Sheik Match-Up Thread

[MetaBhreat]

Yeah Kirby doesn't fall victim to our combos or off-stage antics as much. And he can crouch under needles..
Makes him a pain to fight

 

[Ffamran]

A late night hello to the Sheikah tribe. The Falco boards started their Sheik matchup discussion and would love it if the Sheikah can show Falco their ways and hopefully not send him to the Shadow Temple. Link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...6-sheik-hayabusa-heroes.395129/#post-18770571.

To note: customs are considered and this discussion is ongoing, so (Izuna) drop by whenever.

 

[ArikadoSD]

White - I don't know (12)
Light Blue - Even/Neutral (13)
Light Green - In our favour (13)
Dark Green - Heavily in our favour (4)
Pink - slightly not in our favour (4)
Red - not in our favour. (2)

Sonic
Captain Falcon
Little Mac
Fox
Zero Suit Samus
Greninja
Sheik
Charizard
Meta Knight
Palutena
Pikachu
Yoshi
Diddy Kong
Bowser
Lucina
Marth
Toon Link
Donkey Kong
Wii Fit Trainer
Dark Pit
Pit
Rosalina
Duck Hunt Dog
Mario
ROB
G&W
Shulk
Pac-Man
Samus
Wario
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Lucario
Falco
Olimar
Ness
Mega Man
Bowser Jr.
Peach
Link
King Dedede
Dr. Mario
Zelda
Villager
Ganondorf
Robin
Jigglypuff

Something I did quickly because of boredom.. a list of all characters and how Sheik fares against them imo.

I can explain my reasoning behind some of them if needed, was just hoping i'd spark the discussion a bit :o

 

[Jehtt]

I'm curious about why you think Dedede is even with Sheik in that MU. I feel like Sheik could just completely out-pressure him, but maybe there is something I am missing.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I'm curious about why you think Dedede is even with Sheik in that MU. I feel like Sheik could just completely out-pressure him, but maybe there is something I am missing.

Out of all the heavies (most of which sheik fares great against) DDD has the best matchup imo. Gordos are annoying even though you can reflect them, but I've found it harder to do that with Sheik than other characters. It's recovery is a bit hard to gimp, and it has great combos out of throws, something most other heavies don't. I can see how the matchup can be in our favour though, it's just that for now I believe it's even.

 

[_Hades]

I've been having troubles with the shiekvs mk mu. anyone have any tips ?

 

[?.?]

Out of all the heavies (most of which sheik fares great against) DDD has the best matchup imo. Gordos are annoying even though you can reflect them, but I've found it harder to do that with Sheik than other characters. It's recovery is a bit hard to gimp, and it has great combos out of throws, something most other heavies don't. I can see how the matchup can be in our favour though, it's just that for now I believe it's even.

Lol why negative MU with Yoshi? That's honestly one of my favorite MU's because it feels so even.

 

[MetaBhreat]

I, too, am curious as to why the Yoshi MU is so bad.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Well, his eggs go at a trajectory that is hard to BF over. His DJ armor is pretty strong, and egg throw pops him up a lot, while the egg protects him from our attacks. He's also pretty fast this time around.

 

[Kerpy Derp]

So this seems to be a smash 4 sheik discussion but I play a melee sheik so umm my friend plays a Luigi and I can't beat him any tips?

<???

 

[ArikadoSD]

Yoshi's nair comes out so fast and usually stops fair strings. His super armour on the 2nd jump also means its not as easy to edgeguard, his jab is also pretty good and covers a lot of options.. aerial game isn't bad, eggs, dash attack, and he has serious kill power. running short on time so making this post a direct one :o

i'm surprised to see u guys think sheik's MU with yoshi is even. I think it's directly the 2nd worst after Lucario.

 

[?.?]

Well, let me explain why I think it's a fairly even MU and why I love to fight good yoshis. I actually had a good match with KDB the other day and was actually ahead most of it.

So first off, realize that sheik has an amazing mixup game, off a fair we can string in almost any option we want simply due to our speed. And since we know most yoshis will try to interrupt our fair strings with nair we simply have to choose an option that beats it out such as but not limited to fair>dash past>bair, fair>empty sh>(anything* grabs need to be precise) fair>U-smash, etc... Sure we have trouble gimping him, but it's not out of the question. Instead of our usual gimps that involve interrupting jumps we simply have to find ways to get them to use their jump to put them in badspots, you'd be surprised what you can get off of their dj. While their jab is nice and can be used as a hitconfirm for smashes we can jump out of his cancel with relative ease. as to his aerial game, yeah he's on par with us, a properly spaced fair from them is safe on shield for instance. Eggs are easy to dodge due to our low stature during dash and relative speed. So on so forth, it's honestly pretty even. I could go further in-depth but I think you get the points. Oh one last thing, yeah raw BF in this MU is no-no, but remember we have a lot of hitconfirms for it so why not use them? he's decently heavy after all.

@ Kerpy Derp Wrong subforum mate, there's a dedicated forum for melee sheik here http://smashboards.com/forums/sheik.128/ Best of luck!

 

[MetaBhreat]

i'm surprised to see u guys think sheik's MU with yoshi is even. I think it's directly the 2nd worst after Lucario.

I just didn't know why you put it, I was simply curious.
I have yet to play a decent Yoshi.

 

[_Hades]

Well, his eggs go at a trajectory that is hard to BF over. His DJ armor is pretty strong, and egg throw pops him up a lot, while the egg protects him from our attacks. He's also pretty fast this time around.

agreed

 

[Project Crysis]

Who'd a thought the MU with Yoshi could be such a pain, with that a side I'm sure proper spacing and just holding your own in neutral will get you very far. As for Lucario is see very much why it's a drag to fight him too with Sheik's lack of kill power and all. Even then I don't think it's completely not in her favor considering Lucario has one of the worst neutral games IMO just pick and choose your strikes and you should get the job done, no risky moves either cause I feel they just thrive off the punish.

 

[Douchuumen]

Hey Sheik mains, which characters do you guys think at least go even with Sheik? I'm having a hard time against her with the majority of the cast.

I feel like Lucario would do well, and maybe Sonic or Pikachu, but other than that I'm out of ideas.

 

[Raheem The Dream]

A late night hello to the Sheikah tribe. The Falco boards started their Sheik matchup discussion and would love it if the Sheikah can show Falco their ways and hopefully not send him to the Shadow Temple. Link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...6-sheik-hayabusa-heroes.395129/#post-18770571.

To note: customs are considered and this discussion is ongoing, so (Izuna) drop by whenever.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Hey Sheik mains, which characters do you guys think at least go even with Sheik? I'm having a hard time against her with the majority of the cast.

I feel like Lucario would do well, and maybe Sonic or Pikachu, but other than that I'm out of ideas.

Sonic and Pikachu both have an even matchup (at least for now) in my opinion. Lucario has a pretty solid matchup thanks to the mechanics behind him.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Hey Sheik mains, which characters do you guys think at least go even with Sheik? I'm having a hard time against her with the majority of the cast.

I feel like Lucario would do well, and maybe Sonic or Pikachu, but other than that I'm out of ideas.

Any character that is decently fast can go toe to toe with Sheik fairly well. These include Pikachu, Sonic, Captain Falcon, etc., but NOT Little Mac. That's just a laughably easy match for Sheik unless the Mac is really, really smart. I had trouble with a Pac-Man a while ago, but I think that was from lack of MU experience on my part.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Any character that is decently fast can go toe to toe with Sheik fairly well. These include Pikachu, Sonic, Captain Falcon, etc., but NOT Little Mac. That's just a laughably easy match for Sheik unless the Mac is really, really smart. I had trouble with a Pac-Man a while ago, but I think that was from lack of MU experience on my part.

Actually I'd argue that captain falcon has a pretty bad matchup against Sheik. He can be gimped easily and all our combos work like magic on him cuz he has trouble breaking from them.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Actually I'd argue that captain falcon has a pretty bad matchup against Sheik. He can be gimped easily and all our combos work like magic on him cuz he has trouble breaking from them.

Also the fact he has no projectile and a rather crappy recovery overall?

 

[ArikadoSD]

Also the fact he has no projectile and a rather crappy recovery overall?

Having a bad recovery is what i meant by easily edgeguarded, but yeah :]

 

[MetaBhreat]

With EVO's rules being 5 minutes instead of 6 Lucario becomes just that much easier to time out.
*Mischievous smile behind ninja scarf*

 

[_Hades]

Actually I'd argue that captain falcon has a pretty bad matchup against Sheik. He can be gimped easily and all our combos work like magic on him cuz he has trouble breaking from them.

f-tilts for dayzz

 

[Project Crysis]

Hey Sheik mains, which characters do you guys think at least go even with Sheik? I'm having a hard time against her with the majority of the cast.

I feel like Lucario would do well, and maybe Sonic or Pikachu, but other than that I'm out of ideas.

I think Pikachu can do really well against Sheik, he has more approach options against Sheik than Sonic does IMO and I feel like Sheik can just needle camp Sonic

 

[Project Crysis]

With EVO's rules being 5 minutes instead of 6 Lucario becomes just that much easier to time out.
*Mischievous smile behind ninja scarf*

Pure Genius Lucarios shall be no more in the face of NEEDLES lol

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

Yeah I believe Pikachu vs Sheik is even if not slightly in Pikachu's favor as he has better kill options while being able to rack up damage just as easily.

 

[Berserker.]

Shulk boards had a really early discussion about Sheik. Unfortunately, I was dumb and I forgot to bring you guys into the discussion. Please don't kill me

Match up score is currently at +0 to +1 Sheik's favor. Please join us and be respectful

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-match-up-thread-the-better-zelda.388216/

 

[WondrousMoose]

Pure Genius Lucarios shall be no more in the face of NEEDLES lol

D-D-D-Double post. Might want to take care of that one.

But yeah, screw Lucario.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Anyone else think the match up with Rosalina is terrible? Approaching is extremely difficult, and you can almost never punish her landings thanks to Luma. I'm afraid to even grab because Luma can easily hit you out of that. I have a friend who mains Rosalina and I ****ing hate playing him cuz I hate the match up so much. I know I need to learn it but honestly when facing Rosalina the game just stops being fun to me .-.

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

Anyone else think the match up with Rosalina is terrible? Approaching is extremely difficult, and you can almost never punish her landings thanks to Luma. I'm afraid to even grab because Luma can easily hit you out of that. I have a friend who mains Rosalina and I ****ing hate playing him cuz I hate the match up so much. I know I need to learn it but honestly when facing Rosalina the game just stops being fun to me .-.

I found that the problem with the matchup is that Rosaluma kills so early. It's pretty scary because you need to probably bring her to around 140 %, when she can just kill at like 70 (Watch Mr.R vs Dabuz at Apex). I feel Rosalina definitely wins the match up, maybe 60:40. But with Sheik you just have to be a little more patient. Since Luma can screw up your strings, make them short. You just want to go in and out cautiously. One thing I found (not sure if new or not) is that because Rosalina is so Tall, every Up-Smash you get on her with always be a Tipper (Unless she's crouching) so yay another kill option.

 

[Dabuz]

60-40 Sheik wins but only a handful of sheiks actually know how to play the MU.

 

[ArikadoSD]

60-40 Sheik wins but only a handful of sheiks actually know how to play the MU.

60:40 in sheik's favour? Mind sharing some MU knowledge? o.o

 

[Torterra]

I'm having trouble with pretty much just 4 characters. Jigglypuff, Shulk, Yoshi, and Fox. Jigglypuff is too floaty for me to get any grab combos on, Shulk has a lot of range with his sword and I struggle with getting to him, Fox falls too fast in the beginning for me to land combos on and I find myself eating his up smashes a lot, and Yoshi, I'm not sure what my problem is with him. Any advice would help.

 

[Dagon97]

I'm having trouble with pretty much just 4 characters. Jigglypuff, Shulk, Yoshi, and Fox. Jigglypuff is too floaty for me to get any grab combos on, Shulk has a lot of range with his sword and I struggle with getting to him, Fox falls too fast in the beginning for me to land combos on and I find myself eating his up smashes a lot, and Yoshi, I'm not sure what my problem is with him. Any advice would help.

Puff don't go for combos because you will only get brawl combos. Wait patiently and wait for puff to come to you. Try to sneak in fairs, BF and needles. For Fox you need to play very fast and your goal in the match up is to speed up the pace of the match until Fox has to slow it down and then you are in a favorable position. Shulk just play "fast n smart" and play according to their Monado art. The Shulk boards have been discussing the match up and there is lots of valuable information there. Yoshi you don't gimp Yoshi you need to beat Yoshi in the neutral and badly in order to win. Don't go for anything fancy vs Yoshi.

 

[Torterra]

Puff don't go for combos because you will only get brawl combos. Wait patiently and wait for puff to come to you. Try to sneak in fairs, BF and needles. For Fox you need to play very fast and your goal in the match up is to speed up the pace of the match until Fox has to slow it down and then you are in a favorable position. Shulk just play "fast n smart" and play according to their Monado art. The Shulk boards have been discussing the match up and there is lots of valuable information there. Yoshi you don't gimp Yoshi you need to beat Yoshi in the neutral and badly in order to win. Don't go for anything fancy vs Yoshi.

You're the best, I'll work on this now

 

[Dabuz]

60:40 in sheik's favour? Mind sharing some MU knowledge? o.o

I like having the knowledge advantage over 95% of Sheiks.

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

I like having the knowledge advantage over 95% of Sheiks.

 

[Noso]

I don't know if it's already been discussed, but all the marios I've seen in FG typically are Itching for their grab to uptilt(?) chain, and also be aware that you can be hit from behind mario when he's doing his up smash.

 

[Judo777]

Rosa-luma feels in some ways, like IC's did in Brawl. CGs aside (because who cares right? IC's killed everyone off of grabs) Sheik is REALLY bad at dealing with 2 characters. She is a pressure and control based character, and it is extremely difficult to control 2 seperate characters. That being said, thankfully her recovery isn't the best and she is light, so we can reliably kill her at around 150% instead of 180%. Also Lumas defensive options are worse than Nanas in brawl so he have better tools to deal with luma.

Even still Rosa luma is a tough (relatively speaking) MU for sheik. Difference in kill power is so drastic.

The thing that makes Sheik MU's (for other players) feel so bad, is because Sheik spends a majority of most matches, pressuring the opponent, and being in a superior position. So it "feels" tough. But the thing people often forget is that that is EXACTLY how the match should play due to how late Sheik kills. If the opponent spends a majority of the match in a superior postion and getting hits and juggles, Sheik is going to be losing horribly, because her "life bar" is smaller.

Think about it this way, if sheik kills at 150% and Rosalina kills at 100% and each hit does 10% for both characters. Then if sheik is hitting Rosalina 60% of the match, and Rosalina is hitting Sheik 40% of the match, the match is a draw...... So Sheik needs to be doing beating the opponent more than 60% of the match to win. Now factor in that sheiks damage is more than 10% a hit early percents (like say 60% or earlier) but quickly after normalizes back to about 10% a hit, where as Rosaluma typically hits much harder (due to damage getting doubled by luma and rosa doing damage) and because she's not a combo based character anyway, her damage is probably closer to 15% the whole time (because opponents percentage doesn't alter her damage output). These are obviously rough estimates but Sheik needs to be hitting Rosaluma about 65% of the match compared to her 35% of the match to go even with her.

Which is completely possible, dont get me wrong. Sheik is designed to do that (that's why her pressure options are so good, because they need to be to compensate for her horrid kill power). But this factor is why Sheik MUs "feel" tough for other players, because Sheik is beating them 65% of the match, but people don't realize how close the match is.

Lucario is the exteme example here (I agree he may be our worst MU) Lucario kills us about 30-40%. And we kill him at like 170%. So we need to be beating him up about 85% of the match to go even with him. I tell people this all the time (btw I like playing Lucario against Sheiks for fun sometimes) Sheik murders Lucario at lower percents (just like Sheik Donkey Kong in Brawl), too bad the match doesn't even start until hes at 120%. If Lucario is at 120% and Sheik is at 0% the match is dead even. So if in the process of taking his 120% to "start the match" he hit you with anything at all, he is in the lead. If Sheik is at 35% she should be pooping her pants because at 120% Lucario can kill you at 35% and Sheik still needs to win neutral from Lucario about 5 more times to kill him.

I joke around that Lucario can afk while he takes the first 120% of his stock, cause he really only needs to play after that.