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Ninja Clan Here We Stand! Sheik Match-Up Thread

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vypex

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my main strategy for lucario is keeping him off balance with single needles, Ie. Not letting him charge up aura sphere(after taking a single hit, he has to recharge again from the begining, just in case you didn't know this), and interupt him as he is running for a dash attack, when he finally gets in close quick spot dodge grab or chain f-tilt into combo's, save bouncing fish for 120-130ish kill move when he is at ledge or knock him off stage.
 
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Tristan_win

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I'm having trouble against defensive Peach players. How should I approach and get KOs against characters like that?
Peach is a floating fortress that loves to throw a hit box out whenever threaten but they get over confident with how strong and safe their aerial game is. I've found vanish works extremely well because of this, even a simple dash up into vanish can bait of lot of Peaches. Well used Fox trots and I assume retreating perfect pivots, 'Dancing trotting' and reverse B cancels would also work to help bait them into counter attacking. I'm not 100% sure but I think if your quick enough bouncing fish can be used to punish a missed aerial. Once you have peach on the ground the fight is a lot easier.

Oh and although it's not perfect but Ftilt can hit fairly far forward and above Sheik so keep that in mind when spacing when she's in the air. Also make sure you force her to hover above not just needle range but dash attack as well. Gotta keep them honest.
 
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jinofcoolnes

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Can't you also BF anytime you she her floating?

unless she has tools vs that.
 
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vypex

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Needing some quick advice on Shulk ran into two shulk back to back on for glory, the first one was a very very skilled player, I mostly attributed his wins over me as pure skilled play and countering my move well, Second one i played spammed nair and f-air to the point where i couldn't do much let alone make any space, every time i'd jump over his dash was quick enough to get me during my landing and grab me, having big problems with the range of his nair fair and d-tilt on the ground, speed of the d-tilt was too quick for me to counter, just shield and hope to be pushed away far enough while he spammed it, even than he would change it up after two d-tilts he'd dash in for a quick grab before i had time to react, wondering if this was just a bad match up for sheik or am i missing something, haven't run into too many shulks at all let alone two that man handled me back to back.
 

BigHairyFart

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How do you guys feel about the Ness MU?From my experience, he LOVES PK Fire, and it feels like it should be an easy punish, but I can't seem to get it down. PK Thunder chasing you while you recover is also quite annoying.
 

Tristan_win

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Hey everyone sorry for this sudden announcement but @saviorslegacy has told me he doesn't have the time to put into this thread and that he will be gone for the next month without internet. He also ask me to take over his thread. Hopefully this will be a temporary thing~

So lets use this to mark a new beginning! Right now I feel this thread is a bit... unorganized so I would LOVE all of your input in how we can make it better.
 
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Absol

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Hey everyone sorry for this sudden announcement but @saviorslegacy has told me he doesn't have the time to put into this thread and that he will be gone for the next month without internet. He also ask me to take over his thread. Hopefully this will be a temporary thing~

So lets use this to mark a new beginning! Right now I feel this thread is a bit... unorganized so I would LOVE all of your input in how we can make it better.
Lets not split this up in a weekly thing. We dont understand everything about a match up in a week. Similar to how the tech thread is organized i believe we should just list pros, cons, tricks, and tips for each character rather than a bunch of quotes. In every match up a mandatory pro would be overwhelming frame data, and a mandatory con is killing "troubles" so instead of repeating it every time we should list what sheik excels/sucks at in almost every match up in a short summary before we list the character match ups. I also dont think we should go too in depth such as at what percentage something works on a character. Those have there own threads for resourcing.
 

Tristan_win

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Lets not split this up in a weekly thing. We dont understand everything about a match up in a week. Similar to how the tech thread is organized i believe we should just list pros, cons, tricks, and tips for each character rather than a bunch of quotes. In every match up a mandatory pro would be overwhelming frame data, and a mandatory con is killing "troubles" so instead of repeating it every time we should list what sheik excels/sucks at in almost every match up in a short summary before we list the character match ups. I also dont think we should go too in depth such as at what percentage something works on a character. Those have there own threads for resourcing.
I agree with you on the weekly thing, especially if it's not updated weekly. However instead of making it just a week long or abolishing this system completely maybe if we shorten the time we would get better results? Like maybe 3 days to discuss a match up just so we get something on the board.

I sort of feel pro's, cons, tricks and tips is what valued the most in match up's threads but also concepts. Although I'm horrible at explaining them myself >_<'. Your point is sold though about how listing pro/con could end up somewhat pointless and a short 'this is what Sheik is good at' paragraph would help newcomers a lot. I honestly might just steal like everything False said in his thread though.

Actually it would be pretty interesting to see how other skilled players think Sheik is meant to be played but we could discuss that for like forever~

I do agree with you that in depth combo percentages should to avoided but maybe a brief mentioning of some basic combo starting percents like Ftilt into Ftilt and Ftilt into Fair would be okay? Or maybe we could just mention them in the prolog and then link the information below.
 

Jaxas

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I agree with you on the weekly thing, especially if it's not updated weekly. However instead of making it just a week long or abolishing this system completely maybe if we shorten the time we would get better results? Like maybe 3 days to discuss a match up just so we get something on the board.

I sort of feel pro's, cons, tricks and tips is what valued the most in match up's threads but also concepts. Although I'm horrible at explaining them myself >_<'. Your point is sold though about how listing pro/con could end up somewhat pointless and a short 'this is what Sheik is good at' paragraph would help newcomers a lot. I honestly might just steal like everything False said in his thread though.

Actually it would be pretty interesting to see how other skilled players think Sheik is meant to be played but we could discuss that for like forever~

I do agree with you that in depth combo percentages should to avoided but maybe a brief mentioning of some basic combo starting percents like Ftilt into Ftilt and Ftilt into Fair would be okay? Or maybe we could just mention them in the prolog and then link the information below.
We could also potentially rework it to where this becomes a sort of hub thread, and have each match-up have its own thread; have the summaries in the OP with links to the different threads, and then have more general stuff here.
We could also use the OPs of each sub-thread to hold the more specific details (such as combo/kill percents) as well, so that the more you want to know the more info there is if you just look further.

Honestly though, from what I've seen of other boards the main downside to this is that the threads sometimes just don't get responses, but I'm not sure if that's just from having a lot less players for some characters.
 

BigHairyFart

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We could also potentially rework it to where this becomes a sort of hub thread, and have each match-up have its own thread; have the summaries in the OP with links to the different threads, and then have more general stuff here.
We could also use the OPs of each sub-thread to hold the more specific details (such as combo/kill percents) as well, so that the more you want to know the more info there is if you just look further.

Honestly though, from what I've seen of other boards the main downside to this is that the threads sometimes just don't get responses, but I'm not sure if that's just from having a lot less players for some characters.
That just makes a lot more threads where we don't need them. It also makes information harder to find, rather than having it all present in one thread.
 

Absol

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We could also potentially rework it to where this becomes a sort of hub thread, and have each match-up have its own thread; have the summaries in the OP with links to the different threads, and then have more general stuff here.
We could also use the OPs of each sub-thread to hold the more specific details (such as combo/kill percents) as well, so that the more you want to know the more info there is if you just look further.

Honestly though, from what I've seen of other boards the main downside to this is that the threads sometimes just don't get responses, but I'm not sure if that's just from having a lot less players for some characters.
And yet i really dont think we will have this problem as we have the most fruitful character forums thus far. What will be troubling is that there's only a handful of characters that need to be discussed for Sheik so this can get stale really quickly. But thats from my perspective anyway. Im sure somewhere out there there is a sheik main struggling with the DK match up.....somehow...and they will enjoy the information we provide
 

Jaxas

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That just makes a lot more threads where we don't need them. It also makes information harder to find, rather than having it all present in one thread.
The multiple threads thing is definitely a problem, however I'd argue that it makes the information easier to find if you're looking for one matchup rather than having to dig through this whole thread; that's just me though, and I'm honestly fine either way.

And yet i really dont think we will have this problem as we have the most fruitful character forums thus far. What will be troubling is that there's only a handful of characters that need to be discussed for Sheik so this can get stale really quickly. But thats from my perspective anyway. Im sure somewhere out there there is a sheik main struggling with the DK match up.....somehow...and they will enjoy the information we provide
Have we not covered Diddy yet?

And even if we don't need to cover certain matchups (the 'power levels' in this game are close enough so far that I think it could still be helpful), it's always better to know your options so you don't get cheesed by something in tournament. Many players use threads like this to build MU knowledge without actually having access to any opponents who play the discussed characters (or at least to a competent level), so discussing even things like Mii Swordfighter/Wii Fit Trainer/etc would have a use; it's just not high on the priority list. I think we're in agreement on this, though.
 
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_Tree

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I think having the information in one thread is important. I can imagine someone wanting to read the match-ups would want to have all the information before them, without having to go to alternate links.

Here are my current thoughts on our match-up thread: We're looking ok. The OP is pretty organised and has the information that we've gathered so far. Of course, room for improvement is always there. I've just poked around every other character's match-up thread to see how our's stands up. There are a few threads, namely the Greninja, Marth and Megaman matchup threads, that supply a table showing a quick overview of how the match-up goes for their respective character (E.g. Ganon - 50:50, Zelda - 30-70 etc). I think this could be useful to have to provide a general overview that's very easy to see. Speaking of which...I think having a general character match-up overview is important, just to give players a general idea of how the matchup goes in a short paragraph. The Ganondorf and Peach threads do this pretty well I think. This could involve pros, cons, little tidbits and possible tricks. Think of it as a statement of the general consensus. I think the Zelda matchup thread handled this well too, using a table to show such things quickly and easily.

Having quotes of what people posted here is good too. It provides lots of different outlooks on a specific matchup and is a good source of information.

While obviously not as important, having nice aesthetics can make the thread more appealing. The Ness and Shulk matchup threads have small but eye-catching visuals that make things look a bit more organised. Of course, not everyone is a graphic designer, but we could make things work.

I think making this thread organised and articulate is very important. It provides some of the most needed information concerning this character, and having easily accessible information can help encourage budding Sheik mains to continue with the character. I'd really like to focus on improving this thread quite a bit (in-between videos of course).
 

WondrousMoose

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I like the idea of focusing on individual fighters for certain periods of time, but I feel that it would be best to at least have something down for most of the more popular fighters in the game before getting specific. For example, say I've been having trouble with Marth recently, but the thread is only discussing ZSS. Where else would I ask for help? Would I have to wait a few weeks and hope that a specific fighter comes up?

Lets not split this up in a weekly thing. We dont understand everything about a match up in a week. Similar to how the tech thread is organized i believe we should just list pros, cons, tricks, and tips for each character rather than a bunch of quotes. In every match up a mandatory pro would be overwhelming frame data, and a mandatory con is killing "troubles" so instead of repeating it every time we should list what sheik excels/sucks at in almost every match up in a short summary before we list the character match ups. I also dont think we should go too in depth such as at what percentage something works on a character. Those have there own threads for resourcing.
I'm a big fan of bullet points and summaries. Of course, let's not sacrifice detail for brevity, but I think that this whole "new management" deal could be great.
 

Jaxas

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Possible idea, with some (slight) background:
The reason I suggested the thread-per-character thing was a combination of what @ WondrousMoose WondrousMoose said (I need help with X, but discussion is on Y) and the fact that the boards I've been on in the past have basically just had links to part of the thread where they were discussion X character, but they also generally were discussing at least 2 at once and unless you read a bit before where they linked it was a bit hard to tell who was talking about what.

So how about at the start of each post (or section of a post, if it changes?) we tag what we're talking about with a character icon? That way we could also help people with small (but bigger than Q&A thread stuff) things they need help with in a certain MU, and anyone looking for all the info could search for the character icons to find all relevant info.

(Actually... can you search for the character icons? Does searching for their input text ( : 4sheik: ) return posts with that in it?)


Also, depending on what people come up with I could probably piece together something for the OP in gimp, and update it with MU ratios whenever we decide on one; wouldn't be too difficult
 
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Tristan_win

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My problem with individual threads for each character is just how many that would mean. I rather not have 40+ threads running around. There wouldn't be any urgency or focus to talk about a said match up so for example Kirby would have like 1-3 post while Zss would have like 20. It also wouldn't prevent the problem of newer unenlightened members from making new threads asking about 'X' match up since it's unlikely they would search though the whole forum for that 1 match up thread.

~sighs~

However I also see where your coming from. It's not really fair if you come to the Sheik boards asking help against someone like Samus only to be denied because they are currently talking about someone else. Even more so if we have no information on Samus to help them. In a perfect world having multiple thread would be great if everyone actively shared everything they know as they found it but that's not going to happen, we aren't Bee's or Ant's.

Sadly I think when it comes to this we will just have to bite the bullet. The game is still very young and we just haven't talk about everyone yet. Maybe the correct mind set would be 'We are focusing on X character but feel free to chime in about a match up we haven't discussed yet'.

Talking about 2 match up's at once isn't a bad idea though, maybe we could do one high priority target and one low every week or something.
 
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WondrousMoose

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...but I was serious about Marth :p

Seriously, I have no idea how to get in on that guy. His sword has great range and seems to cover every direction that I don't want it to at once. Do I just hope for a lousy Shield Breaker? An over-committed side-B combo? How do I read a counter? I've tried practicing with my Amiibo, but I'm not making too much progress.
 
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Jaxas

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...but I was serious about Marth :p

Seriously, I have no idea how to get in on that guy. His sword has great range and seems to cover every direction that I don't want it to at once. Do I just hope for a lousy Shield Breaker? An over-committed side-B combo? How do I read a counter? I've tried practicing with my Amiibo, but I'm not making too much progress.
:4marth:
Okay, first things first:
I haven't played many Marth mains in Smash 4, but my main rival in Brawl is a Marth and I've played against him a ton. I've also read a lot about Smash 4 Marth here on Smashboards, but take what I say with a grain of salt.

  • Marth is weak to being juggled. He has weak options for hitting below him (Fair: lowest point on the arc, Dair: super laggy, Bair: difficult to land below him & turns him around), so if you keep him in the air you can get a ton of damage.
  • "You wait for him to swing his sword and then you hit him." This was easily the most helpful quote I ever got for dealing with Marth in Brawl, and it's far more true now that all(!) his AutoCancel windows were basically removed. In Brawl everything he did was a commitment to a certain degree, and most everything was punishable if you blocked/sidestepped/generally avoided it. Now in Smash 4, he commits to everything hard. Even his signature Fair basically doesn't autocancel; if I remember right, the Marth mains have been saying that you can either use Fair near the apex of his Short Hop and then standard (not fast!) fall down to not get lag, or use it later and get over 20 frames of lag. Try it out; it's bad. Many of his aerials are like this (laggy, one way or another) and his ground moves supposedly all had 2-11 frames of ending lag tacked on as well, which is also really bad for a character who has to commit to all his moves.
  • Stay out of Tipper range, whether outside or inside. Inside is higher risk than outside of course, but it can save you if they don't have time to space correctly (as a Sheik player, this should be relatively easy) while also allowing you to be aggressive.
Tl;dr version:
- Bait him hard, punish hard
- Juggle him (Uthrow actually useful? Use it when Dthrow->Uair doesn't work, I'd imagine)
- Don't commit too hard yourself, that Fsmash is easily the scariest thing in his arsenal
 

BigHairyFart

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...but I was serious about Marth :p

Seriously, I have no idea how to get in on that guy. His sword has great range and seems to cover every direction that I don't want it to at once. Do I just hope for a lousy Shield Breaker? An over-committed side-B combo? How do I read a counter? I've tried practicing with my Amiibo, but I'm not making too much progress.
Needles.
 

Tristan_win

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Marth whole kit is about frame trapping and closing off options but not about approaching. He wants you to approach him in fact he NEEDS it. So don't. Throw needles at him and make him come to you, preferably in the air. Once he enter your striking zone punish him. Dash attacks, dash grabs, fair into jabs and most importantly dash into shield. Dash into shield is what you will be using a lot against Marth as unless he space correctly very few of his moves are safe on shield. I haven't fought a lot of Marth yet in smash 4 but don't be surprised if you can punish everything Marth does with a OoS dash attack.

That's one way to fight Marth.

The other way is with pressure. Marth frame data is pretty...lackluster with no quick moves besides his up B c-c-combo breaker and his grab is pretty useless in smash4 when compared to Sheik or Diddy. Once you get in on Marth don't let him go, he struggles greatly at fighting up close against Sheik so abuse your jab, grabs, ftilt and quick dash attack as he has like nothing to match your speed. Of course abuse your shield again as with you being this close nothing he has is safe on shield.

So I briefly touch far and close range and said you want to be there. Where you don't want to be is mid distance which for the sake of argument I'll say is just beyond Sheik instant dash attack (hit left or right and C stick down at the same time) range. This range give Marth the most control, he's close enough so you can't throw needles safely but he's far enough so that you can't punish him without entering his range. This allow Marth to either zone you out or dance around which make it difficult for you to find a good time to punish him. Of course you can do the same and arguably better but this area is where Marth wants to be in at all times.

I haven't fought a really 'Wow' Marth yet but right now I personally think the match up is 6/4 in Sheik favor, most likely more but I wouldn't feel right saying 7/3 so early in this meta.

Edit: Never uthrow, always dthrow if you want to kill with Uair.
 
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Absol

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In the Diddy mu, Sheik can use Dair and cancel out a lot of its landing lag by landing on the bananas while destroying it in the process. As far as I know this is the only way Dair can combo into anything.

So yes...of all things Dair has a use against Diddy Kong.
 

BigHairyFart

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In the Diddy mu, Sheik can use Dair and cancel out a lot of its landing lag by landing on the bananas while destroying it in the process. As far as I know this is the only way Dair can combo into anything.

So yes...of all things Dair has a use against Diddy Kong.
I've successfully used it to counter a Diddy's U-Smash while landing, though it gets pretty telegraphed fairly quickly.
 

Tristan_win

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So after giving it some thought I felt we should give talking about one good character and one 'underrated character' a shot. I think our goal should be to get at least something on the board as soon as we can so if you happen to feel good about a certain match up feel free time chime in with your info. Especially if you find something that could change how one would see the match up like how Sheik Dair destroys bananas.

I also plan to move on another character if we happen to have no actively for a day or two, on the third day we will move on no matter what. We can revisit top and high tier characters in the future.

I'll update this post in a bit with my thoughts on Villager and a little bit of what I know about Kirby.
 

Jaxas

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So after giving it some thought I felt we should give talking about one good character and one 'underrated character' a shot. I think our goal should be to get at least something on the board as soon as we can so if you happen to feel good about a certain match up feel free time chime in with your info. Especially if you find something that could change how one would see the match up like how Sheik Dair destroys bananas.

I also plan to move on another character if we happen to have no actively for a day or two, on the third day we will move on no matter what. We can revisit top and high tier characters in the future.

I'll update this post in a bit with my thoughts on Villager and a little bit of what I know about Kirby.
Villager? Awesome, I have a lot of trouble with one of our local villagers, despite hearing that it's supposed to be heavily in our favor
 

BigHairyFart

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Villager? Awesome, I have a lot of trouble with one of our local villagers, despite hearing that it's supposed to be heavily in our favor
I feel like this matchup is technically even, but is swayed a lot by the skill of each player. Villager has a lot of projectiles/disjoints, most of which are quick to come out. To that effect, he can wall Sheik's approaches well. He can also steal needles or even a grenade if he's quick enough. On the flipside, Sheik is much more mobile, and a good Sheik should be able to weave around Villager's hitbox maze with relative ease and a bit of patience. Once she gets in, Villager can have a tough time dealing with her pressure, as do a lot of characters.
 

MetaBhreat

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Kirby doesn't have the best options, but his floatiness, obviously, gives him a bit of an edge on getting out of our combos.

This is, of course, comes with his lower weight, which allows for quicker KO's. Just pay attention to what you can and can't punish, and be mindful when comboing.

I'm no "v.s. Kirby" expert but this is what I've picked up on.
 

Dyce

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My friend plays Kirby over in NorCal and dtilts do wonders in general for him as well as uptilt locks. The kirby will do dtilt > trip > fsmash. My best advice vs. a Kirby would be to apply pressure and tilts. Needles are virtually useless in the matchup unless you can do air needles > Bouncing fish offstage. Good Kirby players will utilize their aerials over ground moves.
 

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Some neat tricks about the villager match up

We can sponge nade both his gyro, slingshot (and maybe his tree?) to reflect any knockback back on to him. I've killed a villager before because I called his edge drop fair and timed the burst grenade. It should be noted that if he's using the gyro that hits multiple times that sponge nade will not cancel it out. Penetrating needles are a must in this match up.

Our fair hits through his gyro and so dont worry about positioning too much. If you edge guard villager you arent doing the match up right, although because his recovery options cant really hurt us you lose nothing by poking him off stage if you can.

He cant pocket out needles if we throw more than one, so no need to worry about our precious thumbnails used against us. However dont plan on them being too effective against him as he can hide behind his tools. Your goal in this match up is to zone break villager as much as possible while calling advertised Nairs to continue our string. Our Dtilt will beat out his Nairs nicely

If you do find yourself fighting villager and he's spamming gyro you have a few options. You can use bouncing fish to hit him at the start up, but be wary of his tree sprout as no villager will hesitate to grow a tree to knock you out during the move. You can actually run up and attack since the gyro has no hitbox until it moves, but this is also risky unless you know you can get that hit in.

The villagers game is to throw gyros at you, read what you do in the situation and adapt. If they see you jumping over the gyro they will choose to fair, or if they see you shielding it they'll run up and grab. If they see you rolling through it they'll eventually have a charged smash waiting for you. When playing his game you need to mix up these options otherwise you're going to constantly be zoned out.

Watch out for his OoS Dair, 3 turnips will put you into debt. His Utilt and Dtilt are also attacks you shouldnt sleep on. He wants you to get off him, and he will succeed if you arent mindful. He does well at edge guarding and will limit your options as much as possible. Although if he's charging a Fmash you can bouncing fish off the bottom of battlefield and hit him while he's mid charged to get that extra knockback.

One other trick you can try is getting him off stage and fish blimp off his tree to gain insane distance to hit him while he's recovering. Sheik get attack with another bouncing fish when shes in any of the rebound frames of bouncing fish. This is a great option, especially since bouncing fish can hit through his slingshot attacks.


All in just be mindful of skinner boxes Villager puts you in, be patience with strings, and stay on their tail and this match up should have no worries.
 

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I've been snooping around some of the other character forums to see what they're saying about Sheik, and there's sone interesting stuff.

The one that stood out to me the most was Bowser. While some people on here have reported trouble fighting against the King Koopa, the general consensus on the other side is that their MU against us is horrible, if not one of the worst in the game. We just need to use our awesome mobility to our advantage and make good use of needles, and things should go pretty easy.

Oh, and the Link forum is really hostile. Seriously, we need to teach him a nice ocarina song or something.
 

Nu~

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Hello sheikah mains! As an ambassador from the pacman forum, I have a favor to ask of you all. Could you discuss the Pac-Man matchup?
We have a lot of disagreement over who has the edge over who in our thread (we've even got into a few heated arguments) so I would like to hear your thoughts on the matchup.

Here are some of ours:
I think Sheik is even at worst against us. We can negate needles with fruit and hydrants so she has to approach, but I believe our jab is our only move that can consistently compete with hers along with her tilts. Littering the field with trampolines and hydrants are effective at disrupting her approach, but she still has the mobility to get in on us quickly after placing and to put pressure on us.

She does struggle to get that KO though
As for fighting Sheik, make life hard for her by making her come to you with the Hydrant, just stand ontop of it if she tries to use her needles, they can't destroy it. Apples and the other fruit work great against her two, especially if she tries to use her DownB/Bounching Fish, and I personally love to use the Bell (my personal favorite fruit he has, though technically its not a fruit) to punish her when I can and then kill her with a smash or if I miss I can just Z-drop it and attempt to punish her again. The Trampoline can also mess up her game and give you some stage control and breathing room, almost like Diddy Kong's Banana's in Brawl. I faced 2 Sheiks awhile ago in For Glory using these and I won, though it might just be that they weren't very good. Even so though, I think the obstacles she has to go through when facing Pac-Man makes it an annoying matchup for her, if not against her favor.
She may be forced to approach and everything but it's not like her approach options aren't insane and her combo ability isn't amazing. Fruit is great but you need to be careful how you aim it for it to eat needles. Orange does a great job, but bouncier fruit like cherry, don't do as good a job.
Shiek vs Pacman is interesting, and revolves around fruit.

PacMan's Cherry and Strawberry eat up all of Shiek's needles, and lay a good trap to prevent dash-in attempts. PacMan can simply throw out Cherries and Strawberries as a camp-strategy, forcing Shiek to approach PacMan without aid of projectiles. Granted, Shiek's approach game is superb, but PacMan's got one of the few SH Fairs that goes approximately even with Shiek's Fair / Nair. Furthermore, frame-6 partial-invincibility on Pac-Man's UTilt can punish many aerial approaches safely from the ground. PacMan easily beats Shiek's SH Fair approach with multiple options, even without a throw. (note: PacMan's extremely slow 12-frame throw is amongst the slowest grabs in the game. Its a terrible OOS option). OOS, PacMan is looking at Nair for punishes.

Mid-tier fruit, like Orange and Melon, shutdown Shiek's needles and give Pacman some room to approach. Grounded approach options are made more difficult: Shiek has to go all-in and "catch" the fruit while simultaneously using Dash-attack to get in vs PacMan for a ground approach. Pacman could shield instead and FTilt Shiek back into the neutral game.

At this point, I've noticed that Shiek players start to use safer Short-hop approaches in response to Orange and Melon... which was covered earlier. Hope is not all lost for Shiek however... as PacMan really can't approach her safely either.

PacMan's safest approach is probably dashing from behind Melon. But entering the dash state removes a ton of options for PacMan. I'm thinking that maybe if I learn to Perfect-Pivot out of PacMan's FoxTrot, I'll do better, but as it stands, dashing behind Melon removes PacMan's Up-tilt option to beat Shiek's SHs Fairs. Shiek also has the "all-in" options with Grenade and Bouncing Fish... which go well against the Melon. But a quick Shield -> Sidestep vs Fish... or a whiffed Grenade is all Pacman needs to punish Shiek. Its a risky game here.

Both characters have a 3-frame Nair that is used to screw up your opponent's pseudo-combo game. A messed up combo from either player gets punished with quick "get off me" Nairs that PacMan and Shiek have extremely easy access to. PacMan's Hydrant gives him an emergency escape option, but I've noticed that high-level Shiek players know how to deal with it already.

I'll describe Hydrant as a wildcard that coerces a mistake from the Shiek player. Nothing guaranteed, and certainly punishable if the Shiek predicts it. But the mental-pressure it exerts can give PacMan much needed breathing room to reset the game back to neutral.

Eventually, Shiek players learn to stop SH Approaches vs PacMan in the neutral game. And when both players play a strong ground game, it becomes a slower, campier patience game where both sides are fishing for a mistake. I'm inclined to believe Shiek has the slight advantage here, as PacMan's strong KO options are slower and unsafe and telegraphed. (Erm... more-so than Shiek's Bouncing Fish and Vanish anyway).

Damage will regularly get to 160%+, and then Shiek or PacMan will rely on Bair to kill.

Unless an opponent gets a "hard read" on the other guy and can land one of the earlier kill moves. Pacman can reliably KO Shiek around 100% with a hard-read with FSmash. Shiek might make a mistake and get KOed from Hydrant, but I rarely see Hydrant actually KO high-level opponents. Going for the Bell KO or Key KO might help, but PacMan loses out on Cherry, Strawberry, Orange, and Melon pressure... giving Shiek the opportunity to needle PacMan all day.

Similarly, Shiek might get a good read with a surprise Vanish or BF... but I'm gonna bet that the typical kill will be from a safe Bair.

Within "footsie" distance, where fruit can be punished by the Shiek user... it seems like PacMan's FTilt can space Shiek's ground approach safely and effectively. Converting PacMan's FTilt hit into a reliable kill however remains a mystery for me. Sheik's needles become much more useful at this distance as well, but is punished by PacMan's SH->Nair.

I'm thinking 5.5 - 4.5, Shiek's favor vs Pacman... and certainly the game's "momentum" is a very large factor.
 
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Lawz.

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If anyone has tips for the Jiggs matchup, would love to hear it.
 

HmwkLater

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oh man so many people from different threads. More the marrier :) These are some of my personal experiences and thoughts, (do keep in mind that since I'm very slow at this game, everything I say might not be correct...) & I will be talking in Sheik's perspective.

For Pacman, I personally haven't come across players that were memorable... Fire hydrants are a good method to stop the advancing/closing the gap. The water gives the pacman more time to get their fruits ready. (There are some aggressive players that tries to attack while getting swept in the water as well, but never works out that well...)
If I am in the range however, I never go for the bouncing fish but jump high and down air the player standing ontop of the hydrant, which I think is a safer approach.

I just played with this person online for 30+ games and he was using lucina. Holy crap did I lose alot (mainly cause I'm a slow learner). I think one of the key things to remember when facing lucina is to bait it out. Her attacks, like marth, are wide and long(er than sheik). But that's about it, they have quite an end lag on smash attacks and they don't have any quick followups so its a free grab. Abuse the needles, front throw and fair. Never be rash and never try to go in on Lucina as she stands ready. Her smash attacks execute fast and deal quite a damage. And don't try to roll around alot, especially around her. Her down smash covers wide and can KO you easily. Roll away and pretend you are jumping towards her but DI away, making her use her attacks.
 
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Absol

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Hello sheikah mains! As an ambassador from the pacman forum, I have a favor to ask of you all. Could you discuss the Pac-Man matchup?
We have a lot of disagreement over who has the edge over who in our thread (we've even got into a few heated arguments) so I would like to hear your thoughts on the matchup.

Here are some of ours:
These quotes are really inexperienced

I play pac-man as a secondary BECAUSE i thought she did well against sheik, only to be let down. You can play keep away from sheik, but it doesnt help that pac-man is slow.

Any good sheik main wont give pac-man a single chance to set up. She can even uair through fire hydrant to continue juggles. I'll probably write a piece of work for this eventually.
 

New_Dumal

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I never have played a great Sonic before and I got so rekt.
I tried and suceed in thrown needles to stop the spin dash , but yet lose the most of the matches.

The OP says is easy to edge guard them, but he spins in 487943749837 different ways to come back to the stage, I don't even knew that was possible. Someone has experience with this MU and can help me ?
Sonic and Yoshi are the only MU's I'm not understanding too well :/
 

XCounter

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Hey guys, Ness main here. I'm trying to think of a secondary character for Ness's less favourable matchups (mainly Rosalina, Sonic and Sheik) so I thought I'd come here and get some thoughts from Sheik players.

Are there any Sheik matchups you guys would consider to be bad or even?
 

BigHairyFart

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The general consensus seems to be that Lucario is the only real threat, although that's still very even if the Sheik plays smart and patient.
 

Gabriel - Jthor

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Smash 4 being my first Smash game that i looked into competitively, i couldn't find any information about this being known or not. I was playing against a spammy Ness online, i used down throw and he just started using his down B so i went to a vanish kill and surprisingly he absorbed the vanish. So, is this known/worth mentioning in the Ness part of the matchup thread?
 
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