Ninja Clan Here We Stand! Sheik Match-Up Thread

[_waffles]

Hi everyone, I need some help on the Sheik Vs Yoshi MU(I am Sheik in the case), what are good strategies to counter/defeat Yoshi? I am in a tournament that I made in my school Smash club and I really want to beat my friend's Yoshi as Sheik. Btw I main Sonic, Sheik and Fox, thanks.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Tips or video vs Pikachu?

I feel like I can be punishing Pikachu and edgeguarding him a lot more.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Tips or video vs Pikachu?

I feel like I can be punishing Pikachu and edgeguarding him a lot more.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ninj...w-discussing-diddy-kong.371918/#post-17747230

always be sure to check the firs tpost of this thread. there's write up's on the characters that have been discussed there

 

[David Galanos]

Idk if anyone knows this but ZeRo and m2k found out that Sheiks neutral and air anyone who has one like it (Mario, Yoshi, Fox, etc) can gimp Diddy Kong if you hit him while he is using or charging his up b

 

[Absol]

Idk if anyone knows this but ZeRo and m2k found out that Sheiks neutral and air anyone who has one like it (Mario, Yoshi, Fox, etc) can gimp Diddy Kong if you hit him while he is using or charging his up b

the problem is getting him low enough to resort to it.

 

[Tristan_win]

This is nothing really but I decide to use some of my free time at work testing Diddy Kong Dthrow and uair Knock back on Sheik.

Uair testing was based around the idea that Diddy Kong uair does not have a sweet spot, please correct me if it does in fact have one.

Spoiler

Uair

Diddy Kong 0%, Sheik 0%
64KB
50,0
65KB
60,0
66KB
80,0
67KB
100,0
69KB
125,0
71KB
150,0
73KB
Diddy Kong 0%, Sheik 0%
64KB
0,10
69KB
0,20
74KB
Dthrow
Diddy Kong 0%, Sheik 0%
67KB
50,0
69KB
60,0
69KB
80, 0
71KB
100,0
72
125,0
74
150,0
76
Diddy Kong 0%, Sheik 0%
67KB
0,10
69KB
0,20
71KB
0,30
73KB
0,40
74KB
0,50
76KB

TLTR or think about.

Rage barely effects Diddy Kong uair at all.
Rage is weak on Diddy Kong dthrow.

Dthrow example: 100% on Diddy Kong equals roughly a extra 30% on Sheik for knock back.
Uair example: 100% on Diddy Kong equals roughly a extra 10% on Sheik for knock back.

So....yeah, no johns. Diddy kong uair is just normally that strong and his dthrow has a very good rage effect

....Damn monkey....

edit: oh all testing was done on the 3DS, in Vs mode with handicaps. Results were gather by hitting Sheik with just 1 attack and then ending the match to look up the recorded 'max launcher speed'.

 

[cmptn]

Against Fast fall f-air pressure sheik can out of shield f-tilt to punish diddy so don't let diddy pressure your sheild for free.

 

[Locuan]

Sorry for interrupting the Diddy Kong discussion. However, we just started the discussion on Shiek at the Lucina Match-up Thread. It would be awesome if you guys could help out.

 

[_waffles]

Yeah I made a Smash 4 Wii U tourney at my school and my friend won the tournament, I got in 2nd place (he was using Diddy btw ) I struggled with the Sheik Vs Diddy and Fox Vs Diddy MU hard. I was really frustrated, I need help on both MUs and how to DI away from his D throw Uair combos.

 

[HmwkLater]

I'm surprised that no discussion for Ness have happened here so far. I think Ness is one of the hardest to deal with the characters that I love to use.. (Ganondorf & Sheik). He has quite a range on his dash and fair and his grabs do substantial damage (his back throw tho...). Ness players will abuse the range of dash and fair I can't seem to grab them immediately after blocking their attack due to the range between us. Even if you do grab him and launch him into the air, he can dodge quite immediately after and can counter.

 

[Jaax]

So me and my friend have been playing smash for many years now but only came to the competitive scene middle of this year. He mains Link as I said and I can't beat him. He likes to camp with projectiles until I approach and when I do he wrecks me. I can pull of a few combos on him such as forward throw, fair, fair but he'll just match our percentages back up in two hits. He approaches with Nair and then when he lands he uses Link's neutral A Combo.
If I try to camp needles he just overwhelms me with his projectiles or just master shields them.
If y'all could give me strategies on beating him, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Ogopogo]

Link is slow and has a bad recovery, which is great for sheik! Forward air strings are good because there's no super quick move Link has to get out of them, except nair, but that doesn't have much priority. He can always airdodge, but you'll have to read that I guess :/ You can go over all of his projectiles with down-b! It's super good in this matchup. Trying to out-camp Link is usually a poor idea. If he's always approaching with nair->jac combo, either fair him out of he nair or shield the jabs and punish! With time and practice you should be beating him soundly.

 

[Absol]

Yeah I made a Smash 4 Wii U tourney at my school and my friend won the tournament, I got in 2nd place (he was using Diddy btw ) I struggled with the Sheik Vs Diddy and Fox Vs Diddy MU hard. I was really frustrated, I need help on both MUs and how to DI away from his D throw Uair combos.

APPARENTLY if you DI up in the direction Diddy's back is facing (away basically) he cant get a true follow up. I have yet to see any real results, but i mean....its something.

The name of the game with Diddy Kong is avoid his Fair and basically play the "Try to kill me" game. While we all know the feeling of having a hard time killing with sheik we also have to take into account that we can make it just as hard for diddy to kill us with our speed. I like to pretend I'm playing some Kirby game and I'm fighting a boss. Go in, tap him for percent, and leave with your small victory. Quite literally "Tag, you're it." And when they mess up or do another unsafe move, tap them again. Pretend combos dont exist unless you're sure you can get more. Hell, time him out if you have to. While the Sheik vs Diddy mu may be hard, the timer can be everyone's worse match up. Once they realize you're winning by percent and there's 2 minutes on the clock you'll see a change of pace and notice even more unsafe options just attempting to kill you. I recommend this song when running away non stop to time them out. Absolutely necessary.

I'm surprised that no discussion for Ness have happened here so far. I think Ness is one of the hardest to deal with the characters that I love to use.. (Ganondorf & Sheik). He has quite a range on his dash and fair and his grabs do substantial damage (his back throw tho...). Ness players will abuse the range of dash and fair I can't seem to grab them immediately after blocking their attack due to the range between us. Even if you do grab him and launch him into the air he can dodge quite immediately after and can counter.

Do more then grab out of shield them. Bait the dodge after the throw. Respect his fair and just make sure it never touches you. Almost all characters have one move that you just have to respect. Thats their baby pretty much. When he does Side B use bouncing fish. Without Pk Fire Ness gets crippled. The kid also isnt the fastest character in the bunch. Harass with needles. And if he does up b to try to hit you just use Nair and cancel it out. This match up isnt hard at all if you just respect his grab and some of his aerials. And since Ness' main kill option is back throw we all know sheik out of all characters can avoid a grab easily.

 

[Jaax]

Thanks so much dude! I'll try it out tomorrow!!!

 

[lRasha]

Disregard this post.

 

[Anuran]

It's because he is the protagonist. You will never win sorry. You are neutral good and he is lawful good why are you fighting anyway??

 

[ArikadoSD]

Every time Link charges an arrow without shooting his boomerang upwards, it's a free bouncing fish for sheik. I feel like (Toon) Link vs. Sheik is really heavily weighted towards Sheik because both characters are kinda slow and rely on their projectiles way too much, and that creates a lot of opportunities for Sheik.

 

[Othayuni]

So me and my friend have been playing smash for many years now but only came to the competitive scene middle of this year. He mains Link as I said and I can't beat him. He likes to camp with projectiles until I approach and when I do he wrecks me. I can pull of a few combos on him such as forward throw, fair, fair but he'll just match our percentages back up in two hits. He approaches with Nair and then when he lands he uses Link's neutral A Combo.
If I try to camp needles he just overwhelms me with his projectiles or just master shields them.
If y'all could give me strategies on beating him, I'd really appreciate it.

Your sense that you can't beat link at ranging and zoning is generally correct. While sheik has a respectable ranging game, it's important to defer that playing field to the more powerful ranged characters, and Link is actually one of the more powerful zoners this time around. Needles don't become worthless against Link, but I think what you'll find is that you'll spend the most time charging them while he's sent flying so it's safe.

I second the advice about using BF against the bow and arrow. Live it, love it. But also use discretion and make sure that BF is really going to hit. What you don't want to do is land on your hip right next to him because that's how to get punished, and punishes from Link hurt.

So it is generally a rushdown game against Link. Your melee game is where you have more advantage, but Link is still plenty fierce in melee so I'll elaborate on that. The first thing is actually closing the gap to melee. One thing you're probably experiencing is that his zoning game makes it feel like you have to rush him in order to get in close, and then he "catches" you on his sword for rushing him. He knows where you're going to be--that's the point of the zoning pressure. Besides, he limits your options of which way to approach from.

My answer to this is get good at approaching safely without overcommitting. Make use of sheik's excellent dash-to-shield, hop carefully over projectiles, and get just inside his zone to where if he keeps trying to shoot at you, you'll be able to punish with a shff-fair or the like. In fact, your shff-fair is so safe and well guarded if you're good at using the autocancel timing to roll out of it that once you get in close it's safe to pry at him with this to get him to open up, with a little discretion. Ask if you have more questions about what I mean about this technology but the basic idea is you should be able to roll, shield, spot dodge, tilt, jab, grab or jump instantly upon hitting the ground. A proper shff-fair has roughly 0 end lag.

Once you're in that huggy melee range, it becomes discouraging for link to use his ranged attacks as much. Keep a steady watch on the boomerang since it can still come out quite fast and at variable angles but other than that the sword is the bigger threat at this proximity. Your advantage here is that his attacks are slow. Stay guarded as you pry at him and use quick-recovery moves so you're always ready to defend and then exploit an opening. If he makes a big opening you can use a heavier attack, or if a lighter attack gets him off his feet. His jab and shff nair are generally his fastest attacks but your shff fair holds advantage over both of them. When he sends you flying, he'll probably go back to using his ranged game unless you're trying to land on top of him. You might bait his ranged attacks to open up a BF opportunity, or you might just land again and use shield dashing and short hopping to close the distance like you did the first time.

Generally link's a lot less dangerous in the air than on the ground, so feel free to be a little extra aggressive when you've got him off his feet. Have a strong sense for what %s are a good time to start trying to finish him at with certain moves in certain positions. For example, by 110% you should have no problem side smashing him off the edge or BFing him during a recovery for a kill, if you can land the hit. Also, he has poor aerial mobility and you'll have a good time needling him or using your laterial aerials or BF or even burst grenade on him while he's trying to recover.

I think the biggest thing is learn to stay guarded, because sheik, while very survivable, does so by never being hit by heavy attacks. Sheik is very light, and can die early to heavy attacks. But she also has a lot of the most tightly guarded attacks in the game and if you can learn how to stay safe you'll regularly survive to 200% just because they never land a smash (or a tilt, in link's case).

Good luck, and I'll be around if you have any questions!

 

[ep1c_marf]

someone help me vs lucario. anyone else struggle with this? sheik struggles killing and he gets stronger as we put damage on him.... ugg discuss

 

[Absol]

someone help me vs lucario. anyone else struggle with this? sheik struggles killing and he gets stronger as we put damage on him.... ugg discuss

Take away his first stock. Run away and time him out for the rest of the game. He cant kill or catch you. If you think he's going to get you down a stock eventually take on a good 40% or so for coverage into the next stock, but nothing too much for the rage and aura to take place. Lucario relies completely on you attacking him.

 

[quamcomole]

can anyone help me with luigi, i have no idea what im doing and I ALWAYS lose

 

[Wasserwipf]

can anyone help me with luigi, i have no idea what im doing and I ALWAYS lose

I played Luigi the other day in for Glory (no joke, that dude had a Luigi mii that was called Luigi...) and he was playing hell of a good Luigi. Sadly, he left after 3 rather close games (I was always able to win the first stock, but then lost in the end). However, i feel like sharing what I've learnt.

Play defensive. If you commit to attacking you lose. His Nair and Jab interrupt anything you do, his dashattack and Down-B have waaay too much priority. Once he get in/reads a mistake be ready for his punish, and sometimes even 70% combos. I haven't found a way yet how to get out, but it is possible. So i guess testing out and learning how to DI.
His fireballs are good but evadeble. Your needles have more range. Make this your advantage. Also, if the timing seems right, try BF him while he throws them. However, always watch your feet, as he travels really fast with Down-B all over the stage. When he does, DONT jump over it, it's hitbox is huge. Shield it, wait for it to finish and then punish the lag. You need to be quick.
When you want to attack, you can do this pretty safe with retreating aerials. Get in, hit, get out; or even better get in, get out while hitting. Fair outranges most of what he can do. Again, do not expect to combo him. He will be able to turn it around.
Another thing, that seemes to work, are grabs. Especially Grab to BF. This leads to an advantageous position, as it usually sends him where you want him to be. over the ledge. This is where Sheik shines in that MU. You can cover almost everything he can do. His recovery i really bad. Except he's high and close to the ledge. Do not try to edgeguard then. He will down-B. In all other situations, go all out. Hit him, Fair juggle, whatever. Just make sure he can't recover. When he's on a horizontal line with the stage, throw needles. Or SH/HH needles. he can't do anything against it.
Do not roll around him. Downsmash 2 good. At high %, keep an eye on his F-Smash. At around 90-100% you're in killing %. he might start fishing around there. If you get there, play even more defensive. If necessary, time him out.

K, this is about what I can say so far. I'll keep an eye on it and gather more as soon as i can.

 

[Absol]

Similar to Shulk and Marth, if they use their second jump and decide to also recover while attacking with said recovery (or just recover too high) you can shield, grab, and grab release and then bouncing fish. Make sure when you grab them they are over the edge with their feet not touching the ground to ensure they dont get a second jump. Sometimes Luigi's take advantage of that down b priority to attack edge guarders. So just grab, and let go. Dont throw. Knowing Luigi's recovery the bouncing fish after grab release isnt even necessary. Just charge needles and laugh as he falls to the depths wondering where his second jump went.

 

[Jaax]

Thank you SOOO much man, you've been a great help. I can beat his Link now but now he's busted out a Shulk. He keeps out ranging me. Every time I go in or I chase him off stage or anything he just out ranges me. Any tips?

 

[_waffles]

@ Absol Yea Mew2King and ZeRo have told me that I should DI away from Diddy, thanks for all the advice I will take it into consideration! :D

 

[Envoy_]

Thank you SOOO much man, you've been a great help. I can beat his Link now but now he's busted out a Shulk. He keeps out ranging me. Every time I go in or I chase him off stage or anything he just out ranges me. Any tips?

In my experience fighting Shulk, I would harass with needles and try and wait for a whiff. Many of his attacks have pretty good range, but they are slow and a little laggy compared to us and therefore leaves openings for grabs and combos. Shulks will try and go for speed mode and throw out nairs, jabs or a dash grab for their approach. Off stage, Shulks seem to try and go for jump mode to improve their average recovery. I would take this opportunity to see if he'll recovery high or low and proceed to bait out an air dodge or one of his aerials and follow up with either a fair, bair, up air (only if high) or bouncing fish punish. Shoot, sometimes I just let them get back on but I'm too respectful sometimes lol. I unfortunately do not have the percentages that Shulk dies at memorized so I would just rack him up until around 135 and start looking into setting up for the kill. If he goes shield mode, then just use needles and wait out the Monado. He's pretty harmless when he's in using shield mode. I hope there were a few useful tips in this.

 

[saviorslegacy]

It has been long over due and I have been really busy between family and work, but I have changed the title and will be updating the thread soon after all of my family part ways.

 

[Jaxas]

I feel like for as prominent of a character as Diddy is, there seems to be very little discussion about him in this thread (though perhaps I simply missed it? I skimmed pages 1-3, apologies if so).
Is there any way we can try to focus on a single MU for like a week or so before moving on to the next one? Either way, what is our main gameplan against Diddy?
Obviously we should be attempting to force him to recover low (Needling him offstage?) so we can gimp his Uspecial mid-charge, and using needles to stop his rushdown, but what else? What's our 'main focus' in this matchup, and what little tricks can we abuse? (Things like the previously-mentioned OoS Ftilt to punish Fair, for example)


Also, as for I think the main thing is really to know exactly when we kill, and get him to that percent and instead of continuing to rack up chip damage, just waiting for an opening. As an ex-Lucario main, he isn't exactly good at opening people up, so if we play defensively (never be scared of his options, but wary of course) until he overcommits to... well almost anything (If you PS his Force Palm flame, I'm pretty sure you can punish with BF at max range) and then can take him out in one shot, he's not scary. Sheik also wins the neutral game so hard that it's sickening; Ganon probably has a better neutral game due to his higher damage-per-hit (obviously this is low/mid percentages) and Lucario's best OoS option is grab (which is F6 and has decent range, but nothing spectacular). Shield drop-> Frame 6 Jab/Utilt (front hit) is his next best. Best aerial OoS is Dair (5 jumpsquat frames + 4 startup frames = 9 frame OoS Dair), which is not a good option. Seriously, the only thing Lucario has going for him in this MU is his crazy kill potential due to us being unable to kill, so 1 single mistake translates to a stock. If we don't let him get that high or give him that opportunity, he can't do much at all.
Also, directly gimping his recovery isn't really feasible. If you can force him to recover to the stage, however, then post v1.04 he kisses the ground before he gets up. You should be able to run across most of the stage into a BF before he gets up, from what I've found; this doesn't work if you're on the ledge of course, but if you can bait them into it and land around when they do it works.
Also, thanks to the F1 vulnerability on ledge-grabs, recovering to the ledge isn't super safe. Watch out for Uspecial -> wall cling -> Wall Jump -> Aerial, though. Also keep in mind that they don't get Uspecial back until landing with this, so if you can windbox them off the stage after they attempt this (vanish reappearance, for example) that's a dead Lucario, any percent.

TL;DR:
- Find Lucario's exact kill percents (likely from BF specifically)
- Play fairly aggressively (but safely) until Lucario's at that percent
- Stop hitting Lucario
- Kill Lucario in one shot
- Also, force them to recover high and punish their huge amounts of lag from the new patch. (Note: this can be minimized by a good Lucario player ending the trajectory on the ground, but it's fairly difficult and one tiny error lets you end their stock)

 

[BigHairyFart]

I recently played a few Diddy's at my local tourney. The first couple I did alright against, especially for my first time with that MU. Later I lost 3-0 to Strong Bad's Diddy, but the games were closer than the score implies. For getting out of his D-Throw shenanigans, I found that DI'ing away from him will get you out of U-Air range most of the time. However, you are now in the perfect spot for a B-Air, but you can mash airdodge to escape it. That helped a LOT. Anytime they use the peanut gun, it's a free BF for you, and it's possible(although difficult) to steal/catch bananas and throw it back at him. Needles are a must for keeping him out of your face before he can grab you, although it is possible(and very risky) to just grab him first.

 

[speedguy20]

I've played some good Rosalinas online, and I got REKT. Like, it was brutal. It almost felt like when I played Marth vs. Meta Knight in the early days of Brawl. It felt like... nothing works. Every option the opposing character has is better than mine. I can't play my character the same way I do against every other character in the game, Rosalina and Luma is too weird a character for that.

From my experience against the Rosalinas I've faced:

1. Luma is way too good against Sheik. She absorbs needles and every time I landed a grab she was able to break it up before I used a PUMMEL, let alone a throw. Obviously as I get better at the match up I'll learn how to pick my grabs better, but MAN, in these early days, I feel like I can't even grab Rosalina.

2. Rosalina herself is INCREDIBLY strong, especially with Luma, but even without. Her aerials have a ton of range, and a lot of times it felt like she out ranged and out prioritizes Sheik's. All of her smash attacks are strong and fast. Sheik is in kill percent to all of them at 100-110%, and even LOWER if she has Luma to help her. I died at 79% on battlefield to a Rosy up smash (or forward smash, can't remember) with Luma helping her out.

3. Her grabs are really good, and lead to easy combos/kill moves. Especially on battlefield. Rosalina is a giant, and she can punish you on the bottom battlefield platforms SUPER hard. I died a lot because I got stuck on those platforms

tl;dr, I have no matchup advice against this character because I got REKT. I feel like the match up is in her favor at least 60-40. I could just be booty at the matchup, but I feel like on paper she is just a strong character and counters a lot of Sheik's best options.

help me beat this character!

Have you ever tried using needles as a bait for her gravity, then punish it?

 

[vypex]

I found when diddy throws the banana and leaves it a good strategy is too hold onto the banana and needles him when he gets close than immediately throw the banana while he is still stunned from the needles after the banana trips him up a quick F-smash or grab and up air combo, annoys alot of diddy's especially if they like using banana's alot

 

[Asdioh]

hey guys Kirby boards are discussing Sheik, please send help

 

[cFive]

whats with the diddy talk? i thought it was lucarios turn...? :o


I think lucario is one of the harder matchups for sheik. She has trouble killing and that can be fatal vs lucario! She is a very light character and even tho her neutral game is much better, only one mistake can cost her so many % or even a stock!

As lucarios % rise, sheik has to play more and more safe. Try to cancel lucarios neatral-b charge with needles as often as possible. Only one needle can be enough, at that point of the match, its not about % anymore, but to keep lucarios danger factor to a minimum while staying patient and waiting for the right moment to get a safe killmove!

There is no fast way of doing this unfortunatelly.. If you rush in and start spamming killmoves (e.g. on-stage bouncing fish) luc will eventually get a cheap kill with rage+aura. Just stay with your safe aireals, tilts and grab follow ups until you get an up-air, back-air (sweetspot) or something like that. I would recommend only using smashes when you are 100% sure they will hit (e.g. lucario up-Bs on-stage)!

Even if you wanna play safe, DONT CAMP TOO MUCH IN YOUR SHIELD!! I've seen lucarios side-b kill sheik at 50-60%! Its insane!

 

[Macchiato]

I think it's pretty bad. Sheik has trouble killing and lucario gets stronger every more percent he gets. She is also light. If lucarios at high percents, a fsmash can kill sheik at like 50%. I think this is 6:4 favoring lucario.

 

[MetaBhreat]

A simple thought regarding Lucario.

Time him out?

We have better damage output, combined with our exceptional mobility. It's a realistic option.

Just a thought. Won't do you much in an untimed match, obviously, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.

 

[BigHairyFart]

A simple thought regarding Lucario.

Time him out?

We have better damage output, combined with out exceptional mobility. It's a realistic option.

Just a thought. Won't do you much in an untimed match, obviously, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.

A lot of people seem to like this idea. If it works, then it works, but you can't help but feeling really cheap by just running away for half of the match.

 

[cFive]

i dont know if you could actually do that.. his neutral-b and side-b at high percents are just so big.. dunno if you can dodge all that :/

 

[speedguy20]

A lot of people seem to like this idea. If it works, then it works, but you can't help but feeling really cheap by just running away for half of the match.

To be fair Lucario is kind of cheap also.

 

[2busywinning]

Sheik does will against fighters who want to make space. I have had a bit of trouble with cap'n falcon and lil mac so far. Might just be me being too offensive

I like to think that there's no such thing as being too offensive haha

 

[_Tree]

To be fair Lucario is kind of cheap also.

Yeah I don't think anyone will hold going for a time out against you when you're facing the most poorly designed character in the game.

My knowledge of this match-up is limited, so I don't have much to say, but due to recent testing I can confirm that none of Lucario's moves can be crouched under.