• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,036
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Records aren't enough. People know the characters strictly by name and compare them to the Records based upon actually playing the character.

It's inconsistent and doesn't solve anything. This isn't the same as some EX Idea. Like, if it was choosing a character and on the CSS it said Samus(Zero Suit), that's fine. But they need to be consistent for both so others aren't confused.
Perhaps my original post was jumbled and a bit poorly worded, because this is exactly what I want. They still carry additional labels for selection and records, the announcer call would simply be the same for these instances. Whether they choose to label with additional titles or by game, I'm perfectly fine with either.

Other fighting games are different and don't work how Smash does.
I think Smash could learn a few things from other fighting games (and vice versa.)

Smash treats every character with even the tiniest difference as an entirely separate one(even if they could be merged sometimes. Giga Bowser went through this, Metal Mario and Giant DK went through, and also are still kept as mini-bosses too at times, etc.).
My proposed scenario doesn't take away from the fact that they're considered separate. This is just reworking what Melee and Brawl had for Zelda/Sheik and Samus/ZSS.

It doesn't actually work.
It can, I'll demonstrate with a mock-up. Whether or not you like it is a matter of preference but don't say it can't work.

Forgive the rushed/scuffedness

scuffsamus.png

And Echo Stacking still sounds better because it's actually a consistent thing with no confusion.
Some people like echo stacking. I'm in the camp that doesn't.

You still know who you're selecting. I'm not selecting Samus. I'm selecting Zero Suit Samus(or even Samus(Zero Suit) for a decent alternate name). And it doesn't matter if it's a mouthful.

What matters is that it's clearly not the same character as the other one, so they are hard given other names so there's never confusion at any point for anyone.
First point is resolved, that was my bad for wording. Also, I was suggesting Demon King Ganondorf (or rather Ganondorf (Demon King) as a name, despite being a mouthful. The comparison was to ZSS, which I would still personally swap to Samus (Zero Suit.) As I mentioned above the announcer would simply not say the portion in parentheses.

Now for the bold, this is actually my main point. Samus and ZSS are in fact the exact same character. Functionally they're not of course, they're separated for gameplay purposes. They're separate "characters" move set wise, but the same person. That's why I would want to group the Samus's, Mario's and hypothetical Dorf's. Zelda/Sheik potentially as well, but they're kind of the outlier depending on how she's represented next time.

Besides, it wasn't till way later that EX Costumes even got their own records. It was just the same guy with a special change(like in early Marvel VS Capcom). Which was already confusing enough, but at least you know exactly you were still playing as Ryu with the same record. They also had clone characters with sometimes their own names, but the records were clearly different even then. They never attempted to stack those kind, as it was way too confusing. There's a reason people called alternates things like Orange Hulk instead of Hulk, or say, Hyper Venom. People did give a few nicknames at times(for less confusion), but they still gave alternate names anyway.
I understand the sentiment, but I don't MvC EX characters are the best comparison. If we got a new MvC and they chose to bring this style of character back, I'd also want them to be labeled, but I'd be perfectly fine with stacking because they're still the same character. Or in this particular case, I suppose not since they wound up turning OH into his own Thing in the comics.

It's very pointless to stack characters who aren't even some kind of clone at this point. It enters a much higher confusion than is needed.
Agree to disagree, I guess. Other games do this just fine. I'll use the Naruto Ultimate Ninja series back on PS2 as the example. You had powered up versions of characters with different move sets and appearances stacked onto the same slot as "secret" characters (in the third game) in a similar fashion. They played completely differently. but it's well understood that it's another version of the same person. Granted the successor series Storm (iirc) goes the DBZ route and just has a bunch of different Naruto's and Sasuke's on the CSS.

This is a very casual game. People know Link because he's a tall adult. People know Toon Link due to the artstyle and being a child. People know Young Link due to being a more traditional design, but smaller. Etc. These names are a massive deal in Smash and are heavy designations that are kept for multiple games straight. It confuses veterans and makes people wonder why on earth you would use an inaccurate name for no legitimate benefit. You could still stack them(assuming Echo stacking is gone) but retain their identical name without a single bit of confusion. Or the slight parenthesis variant. You may also be forgetting how Sakurai has gone on record saying Records were already difficult to work with, which is why he refused to do "Costumes with differences of any kind". Do you really honestly think he would use a more confusing route(or frankly, anyone who pays attention to Smash's history) when it only creates more oddities that don't need to exist?

Frankly, no. It's a terrible idea. It doesn't work and doesn't legitimately improve the game. Stacking is cool. Completely removing unique names is not actually a useful tool. Never mind how much it hurts even costumes who now at least kept unique names and have to give them up. Yay, Alph is now named... Olimar for no given reason. While it is true the records aren't as kind to Alph(something that should be easy to change, which is to make the most popular costume be noted in some way by changing the name only) or the Koopalings respectively, at least that's a case of Sakurai making it clear he has trouble separating data for costumes. In other words, it was never plausible due to clashing data that would be misleading. Now it'd be even more misleading, since it's not just a costume, but a completely different character.
And the rest of this wasn't the intent I wanted to get across. So, I agree with you there.
 

Nabbitfan730

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
572

Would this be honestly be the best route for Smash 6. Similar size roster as Ultimate with the fat cut and with newcomers

Especially in terms of gameplay. Would going back to a Melee-feel than what we have now with Ult be an improvement? It would garner more favors with the competitive scene possibly limiting the divide.

Kill all birds with one stone. Melee fans, Subspace fans, Wifi Warriors etc all satisfied.
 
Last edited:

GoldenYuiitusin

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2024
Messages
730
Location
Questioning my existence while asleep
You know whats always lowkey bothered me?

Captain Falcon has a Blood falcon alt skin in Smash but the narrator never refers to it as such, they should update that in a future smash
Only if the skin is altered to actually be given the spikes and skulls and the voice changes.
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
12,176
NNID
Nelson340
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
You know whats always lowkey bothered me?

Captain Falcon has a Blood falcon alt skin in Smash but the narrator never refers to it as such, they should update that in a future smash
Only if the skin is altered to actually be given the spikes and skulls and the voice changes.
Not only that, but only Brawl actually got Blood Falcon's colors right. Every other game's screwed them up somehow.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,060
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Only if the skin is altered to actually be given the spikes and skulls and the voice changes.
Actually, that gets me thinking; what four skins would make sense to be Blood Falcon's, with the other ones being Captain Falcon's?

That way, it would feel more utilized. Obviously the black skin should be the one for Blood Falcon, but not sure on the rest.


In order of Indigo, Black, Red, Green, Blue, White, Yellow, and Cyan(according to Smash Wiki, anyway).
 
Last edited:

NintenRob

Rising YouTuber
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
5,340
Location
Australia
NNID
trpdm.wilton

Would this be honestly be the best route for Smash 6. Similar size roster as Ultimate with the fat cut and with newcomers

Especially in terms of gameplay. Would going back to a Melee-feel than what we have now with Ult be an improvement? It would garner more favors with the competitive scene possibly limiting the divide.

Kill all birds with one stone. Melee fans, Subspace fans, Wifi Warriors etc all satisfied.
Depends how we define "Going back to Melee" because whenever I go back to Melee, things always feel clunkier to me. Like it requires more effort to perform a simple Smash attack then it does today and I don't really want to go back to that (and c-stick doesn't even work in single player)
 

Guynamednelson

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 17, 2014
Messages
12,176
NNID
Nelson340
3DS FC
2105-8742-2099
Switch FC
SW 4265 6024 9719
(and c-stick doesn't even work in single player)
Well, definitely not that. There's a reason Project M didn't bring back that.

And as much as I keep brining up PMEX Remix, playing it makes me miss being able to do any attack out of a dash, not just dash attacks/up smashes/specials.
 

Gorgonzales

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Messages
893
Location
Forgotten Isle
Especially in terms of gameplay. Would going back to a Melee-feel than what we have now with Ult be an improvement? It would garner more favors with the competitive scene possibly limiting the divide.
As long as Ultimate's input delay, platform stickiness, and awkward buffer system are gone, I'd be fine with something closer to Melee.

Ultimate's "Punching a Balloon" style of knockback is fun, but I think the next game should go back to the classic style of knockback, with the Balloon knockback only being used for huge hits at high percents to emphasize their impact.
 
Last edited:

NintenRob

Rising YouTuber
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
5,340
Location
Australia
NNID
trpdm.wilton
I want to talk about about Target Smash.

I wonder what it would take to bring back unique Target Test for every character for a Smash game the size of Ultimate (that supports DLC). I wonder if repurposing the assets from Stage Builder would help.


But if not, I wouldn't mind Brawl style either. It's a grind sure, but honestly I don't mind working towards things like that. Especially if there's a vault like what Brawl,
 

NintenRob

Rising YouTuber
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
5,340
Location
Australia
NNID
trpdm.wilton
I think a mode where you make your own Target Test would be the best possible compromise.
It would be a fun thing to share online but I don't think it really functions as a replacement. By nature of it being custom, you kinda lose any sense of accomplishment or goal to work towards with them. And creator content generally pales in quality to professional creations
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,060
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
I think the problem wasn't with Target Tests being generic. It's just that when you get five, and they have no benefits beyond "do them all", it got old fast. Having to do it 175 times was beyond ridiculous if you wanted 100%. At least you didn't have to do it once per literal character(so Zelda/Sheik counted as one), which slightly alleviated it. 195 is still godawful if you did include the other 4 characters.

But it got worse. Classic didn't have another neat Mini-game alongside it, while also being really really long. Like, Wii U and 3DS' classics weren't the best(especially Wii U's), but it had significantly more variety in comparison. That's kind of important. Ultimate's shortened it as well and made it a nice fast mode with the only long thing being the Credits at best.

That said;
Target Smash was once per character, and had rewards for replaying it. The levels were a bit annoying in the Wii U version, but still had some benefits(and you only need to grind the first level for trophies/customs anyway). So while it's clearly bigger in Wii U, the amount wasn't that bad, though still bad. Since it was barely more than Brawl's. ...The fact it was just slightly above showed how quickly they got tedious though.

I like the idea of "create a Target Test", but it doesn't really make it feasible as a mini-game. It does suck we didn't get it at least as pieces in the DLC, though... That would've breathed a bit more life into the game. Sharing them online might be awkward, though.
 

superprincess

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 30, 2024
Messages
367
Location
Peach's Castle
I totally disagree with the idea of TOTK Ganondorf becoming his own character alongside Falcondorf. As I already mentioned, TOTK Ganondorf is the perfect opportunity to bridge the gap between Smash's take and a canon version of Ganondorf. No need to add a whole extra version of him.

This is like when people were saying BOTW Link should be his own character under a different name alongside the "classic" Link. Then Ultimate got revealed and it still obviously considers BOTW Link as the main adult Link... as does everyone. These little character incarnation distinctions matter to no one but diehard fans.

TOTK Ganondorf can be a simple Falcondorf update (that, as I thoroughly explained before, could make him more accurate and more viable) and would absolutely be a waste of a new character.

The original beastly Ganon could join as his own character, in his own slot and everything. We could use more pre-OoT Zelda representation aside from Ultimate's stupid Zelda redesign (which isn't even exactly a classic, as it also takes from ALBW).

I also don't think Sheik, ZSS, or Doc should be moved into Zelda, Samus, or Mario's slots. It'd be misleading, as those characters have their own unique movesets and overlap with echo stacking.
 

Will

apustaja
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
33,194
Location
hell
Switch FC
SW-7573-2962-2407
The original beastly Ganon could join as his own character,
It’s been 16 years since the last Zelda newcomer and y'all are telling me that after three versions of Link (technically 5) and 2 versions of Zelda, what this series truly needs is a second Ganondorf?

Give me someone new. :iwatadirect: Like, actually new.
 

superprincess

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 30, 2024
Messages
367
Location
Peach's Castle
It’s been 16 years since the last Zelda newcomer and y'all are telling me that after three versions of Link (technically 5) and 2 versions of Zelda, what this series truly needs is a second Ganondorf?

Give me someone new. :iwatadirect: Like, actually new.
If it was Ganon or nothing, I'd take Ganon. He's new enough I guess...
Although my personal choice for a new Zelda character would probably be Sidon. Smash hasn't filled the "sexy fish man" archetype yet.
 

Will

apustaja
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
33,194
Location
hell
Switch FC
SW-7573-2962-2407
If it was Ganon or nothing, I'd take Ganon. He's new enough I guess...
Although my personal choice for a new Zelda character would probably be Sidon. Smash hasn't filled the "sexy fish man" archetype yet.
I think Ghirahim would be cool. We don’t have SS reps, he expands the villain roster, he has a unique fighting style, and he’s already an Assist. It’s almost meant to be.

 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,036
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
If I'm being completely honest, I don't think we're getting a new Zelda character next game either. They'll update the Zelda cast's designs, maybe see some minor move set updates for Link and Dorf again and probably lose one of the small Links. So, we'll be down a Zelda character and will get the usual new stage and some more supporting content, new items, new ATs, etc.
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
7,734
What if they added pig Ganon?
He's already in the game. As both a Boss and a Final Smash. Which is the perfect implementation for him.

I'm not even a super huge Ganondorf fan, I'm just pointing out how his portrayal could be a lot better for one of Nintendo's flagship antagonists.
I am a super huge Ganondorf fan. And he deserves better than being a semiclone of someone from a completely different franchise.

Would this be honestly be the best route for Smash 6. Similar size roster as Ultimate with the fat cut and with newcomers
No. That's terrible.

Melee's wavedashing is a blight upon the game that destroys hands and controllers.

Brawl's story is melodramatic KH-esque garbage full of bad stages.

And no roster that isn't EiH can be considered "perfect".
 
Last edited:

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,060
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Eh, I don't feel like going into a major spiel. So I'll shorten it by quite a bit, heh.
  • TOTK Ganondorf is a completely different person from the previous Ganondorf's. Which he shares some references, he has no clear ties to Demise. The others are designed so their evil is impossible to go away while the Triforce exists, because it hard ties Ganondorf to Demise. Ironically, this is just as much of a problem for Link and Zelda, but they're cursed differently. PH and ST also muddies this by still having evil that resembles Ganon, despite the Triforce being gone. The official story is Ganondorf lost his ties to Demise when he lost the Triforce. It's possible that Link and Zelda not dying in that battle apparently kept the reincarnation going?
  • TOTK Ganondorf is also a much different person. He's a horrific man by choice, but also never turns into a form of Ganon. So this means you already can't use Calamity Ganon as the OOT Ganon boss fight(if they would take HW's unique bipedal one, sure. Though he's still not Ganondorf, as Calamity Ganon is basically a being who came out of Ganondorf's body. This is the only time they're really separate people).
  • While they share the same bodyshape(it's hard to tell, due to Models Resource having them at different angles) apparently, this doesn't make it a good alt. The sword is most definitely not going to change how it functions because of the Samurai Blade that the TOTK version wields. That would change his playstyle too much. If it can't be clearly uses identical to his current broadsword, it fails as a weapon choice. Which is saying something, because even the Sword of Sages acts closer to the Broadsword. Almost ironically, considering it's a different kind of sword(but, well, magical sword?).
  • A costume reference works, but not if you have to extremely overhaul his functions to justify it. Overall, TOTK Ganondorf is significantly more different from the others. He makes more sense to keep separate if playable at all. And no, it doesn't matter if it's a second Ganondorf(which hilariously wouldn't be a second Ganon since he can't become the actual Ganon, hilariously enough). He's also not as iconic as OOT's either.
    • It does make more sense to use Pig Ganon as his own character in comparison, sure. He has an actual different weapon to use, and different skills.
  • Finally, the comparison to Link isn't too grand. Link already has functional differences that made him overall worse. The so-called upgrade changed too much in the end.
    • Ironically, Young Link is the Classic Link people wanted, but only to a degree. He plays much closer to the previous design since Smash 64. However, you know, not being more of a heavy-to-middleweight, low range, etc. doesn't help.
    • The idea a Classic Link echo is bad is pretty silly too. Besides actually functioning like the TP/OOT design more, it gives a better character, more unique options, but also has a modified playstyle that keeps the old one that some prefer. Others will flock to BOTW's design on its own, and that's cool too. Besides, it's pretty much not that much work as some. It's basically just taking the version from Wii U, using him, doing some balance, and at most giving him perhaps a different taunt or victory. In addition, it gives more overall options. The only downside is that they'd need to... figure out a naming scheme that makes sense. Since he's the previous Link, calling him Classic Link is weird. In fact, this is the only actual reason it's not feasible within the design philosophy. It's not a matter of "too much work" or that he won't be popular at all as a choice.
    • On the other hand... you just make BOTW Link the Echo instead. What name? Eh, I dunno. You can't go with BOTW Link either way. Wild Link was a pretty good and accurate name in comparison, I guess?
But yeah, you can see why they didn't do so. And they especially wouldn't change Ganondorf that much. BOTW Link actually made Link noticeably worse and less recognizable. It didn't actually work like it could've. It was a cool idea, but just like trying to buff Ganondorf, didn't work that well. Though it should be noted that Ganondorf, despite being his own bottom tier, is significantly more viable than Brawl and 4. In other words, they did actually make him better than the previous games, while ironically making Link worse in comparison. What does it mean? It means trying too hard to "promote the latest design" is not as feasible as people make it. Nor is combining the newest one with the latest one always the right call. Hell, should we need to note how terrible Brawl Ganondorf was? Even worse than how BOTW Link turned out? Yeah. The only thing to say about Brawl Dorf is that he was satisfying as hell to use(and him being a slower more brutish character did legitimately become a more proper portrayal. In fact, that became his canon personality to a degree within the games after WW. They kept going with the spin-offs, FSA, TOTK, and his alternate take in Age of Calamity, which doesn't even have GanonDORF in it. As noted above, Calamity Ganon is pretty much a separate being from Ganondorf this time instead of clearly the same person. But that's more due to basically being a split personality design-wise.

I should note that Zelda is a unique case where they did it right. Not just that she became quite a bit better compared to previous games, but they didn't focus too hard to changing her to the latest version, they updated her in a way that fits her well and made her better. She's the only one to get that kind of update(other than TP Link, respectively) to directly improve their previous game design(Ganondorf is kind of odd in that reverting to OOT, not updating his design, actually did improve him, but it didn't make him anywhere close to his Melee tiers) and improve in the meta. It's pretty clear Zelda characters trying too hard to promote the latest game has a noticeable bad effect on their options. It didn't work. To note further, this is Zelda's best placement in the entire Smash franchise. Because they tried to improve her, not try to "promote the latest abilities".

Overall, TOTK Ganondorf is cool, but he doesn't fit the current Dorf's mold very well at all. Nor would he make, say, a good Echo. A semi-clone or regular clone, perhaps. And that's iffy. He absolutely would make a terrible replacement too, since he's just not similar enough to be an ideal fixover. It was bad enough with the TP one, but he at least still could reasonably function in a similar manner(the loss of speed sucked, and Ganondorf wasn't even that slow in TP. It was a weird armor-related thing that really didn't need to be used that way. Like, he shouldn't be hyper fast by any means. Maybe a tad slower than Melee. That said, Ultimate returned much closer to his playstyle, including his previous functioning style, while still keeping the updated ideas that further benefited him since his design in Brawl.

It's also worth noting Brawl is pretty much the only time Ganondorf got any kind of real overhaul, and it hurt him badly. Albeit, not in the personality department. Just the gameplay one. He became significantly more canon-like, but lost viability hard. Ultimate doesn't really overhaul him so much as somewhat update him(for better or worse), giving him a weapon planned in Melee to use, and give him new tools. The good news is that despite Brawl's... issues, they actually made him make more sense in some ways. Him having a lot more super armor is significantly more accurate to him as a boss character in general. He's a tank, regardless of the pig form or not. His speed loss was the only issue, regardless of its original design reasoning. I do see him improving, but I don't see it through trying to promote an extremely different take on him as a good concept for it.


And yes, I'm all for Pig Ganon. But it does help he's functionally a very different character in abilities. He's both far more weapon and projectile-based, and uses both contact damage and teleport spam to a huge degree that changes up how he is from Ganondorf. And that's just one version of Ganon. Most of the Ganondorfs are fairly different in their options, but still function pretty similarly(only Toon Ganondorf is a bit different by having a lot more jumping capabilities that are never shown with the other two). TOTK Ganondorf however is a... completely different character. I would laugh if he was some kind of clone next game, though, assuming TOTK was the latest game. But don't forget they did skip over SS for Link(and that might be because his options weren't easy to update anyway. The stuff from that game is not really easy to promote while functioning rather similarly to the current Smash Link. BOTW still has the same core items, respectively. So they went with other ways to promote it).

Last thing to say is that when Link went to BOTW, it not only worsened him, it forced animation changes(that I can't say were necessary or not to change his handedness. It might be the assets required, though) too. The benefits were at most "he matches the latest game". In fact, his stuff that seems better is more because of the universal game changes and less so due to his updates. His Bomb Game and Grab Game are worse overall. He doesn't have an extra recovery option either. He's not a very good example of how to update a character.

-------------

FYI, when people mean Pig Ganon, they mean the ALTTP Trident-wielding warrior. he has absolutely zero appearances in the game, and is the most intelligent Ganon to exist. While some do have tactics, they vary. Quite funnily in a way;

  • OOT Ganon is a complete idiot. He just swings wildly and has zero control over his power. The Zelda 1 Ganon, despite being pretty dumb compared to Ganondorf's schemes, was still smarter.
  • WW and TP Ganons are both tactical bosses, despite no longer being a humanoid-like form. They're actually very smart.
  • Calamity Ganon, who actually isn't a form of Ganondorf for once, is just a pure force of hatred and has zero intelligence. He's lower than a complete idiot(who has at least the ability to think. OOT Ganon can recognize you and turn around. Calamity Ganon, outside of his HW non-canon bipedal form, isn't aware of things. He just exists and directly causes destruction. Basically a force of nature and mindless.
  • Zelda 1 Ganon is somewhat dumb compared to Ganondorf, but knows how to use his magic and physical abilities to destroy you. It's just his schemes aren't as notable now.
  • ALTTP Ganon is massively smart, using tons of unique magic and physical prowess too. He's not some pure magic or pure physical user(which... is what Ganondorf is in Smash. In fact, he encompasses the most iconic Ganon personality you can get. So in a way, he's far more accurate than other movesets try to portray him as. They forget a lot about his true versatility and his obsession with power).
  • Yuga Ganon really doesn't much count, since he was taken over by Yuga and is a mindless beast. So he has no control. Makes you feel a tad sorry for him, especially as this is the same one who was forced to be evil due to Demise's influence. Yuga chose to be evil. Ganon/dorf did not.
  • FSA Ganon is an oddball who clearly is the first true reincarnation, but basically is just like ALTTP Ganon overall. It doesn't lead into ALTTP either, as it's the end of the timeline. It's just an alternate method he acquires the Trident, making him quite smart.
    • (And only reincarnation, btw. The Ganondorf in TOTK has zero ties to any of the actual earlier Ganondorfs. The entire story changes too much and makes it its own effective story. It has light references to previous works, but it's basically no different from a non-canon spin-off in terms of continuity. That is, it has zero continuity with anything but BOTW, which works the same way. In other words, it's a canon game in its own story and really doesn't even fit the end of the timeline. It's even worse than other semi-inconsistent ones)
  • The other Calamity Ganon in AOC is a non-canon slightly smarter one. It resembles Zelda 1 Ganon in that way. He's still not very smart, but clearly capable. His intelligence is above 0, heh.
  • And the second mindless Ganon is somehow more stupid than the OOT one, being from the Oracle games. He's got no mind due to a botched ritual. He fights like ALTTP Ganon, but that's clearly on instinct. He's still a more difficult fight than OOT due to this, though. It's a bit closer to the TP fight where both forms of Ganon are beast-like, but clearly use unique skills. That, and it's probably because the sacrifice was of Twinrova, so she likely made sure his magic was at top power. That or, you know, reliving a classic fight. Ganondorf was meant to be appear in the game, but didn't make the cut. So it was likely due to that and it'd be a bad boss fight if he had no real skills. In addition, it is the resurrection of ALTTP Ganon too(now how he still has his Trident is a good question...).
Quick edit to note how the Ganons are massively different and why Pig Ganon(ALTTP only) is such a popular choice to add. They want an actual person with characterization, not a near mindless boss. Besides, Ganon in OOT is so vastly different from ALTTP Pig Ganon that you can tell them apart at a glance. Their body shape isn't even that similar. One is a hunched over monster with two swords. The other is a fully standing powerful beast man with a Trident and immense magic. Hell, OOT Ganon has zero access to magic. We wonder why. So no, we don't have "Pig Ganon" in Smash(not the one people mean). We have a mindless boss from OOT who was... the easiest boss fight in the game and kind of lame outside of his design. He was cool, but not an actual threat. Any player knows he's almost as easy as King Dodongo or frankly if you cheese Morpha hard.
 
Last edited:

Scrimblo Bimblo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2023
Messages
325
Badly designed characters can still be fun to play.

Is Ganondorf fun? Yes. Do I think his design can be substantially improved while still retaining the powerful feeling from his previous Smash iterations? Well shoot, with Kazuya raising the bar for what a powerful character in Smash can feel like, I'd say absolutely.
I mean, your original argument was that Ganondorf's moveset is not an iconic part of the series but a blemish on it. Nothing to do with how good or badly designed he supposedly is.
I don't know if that's enough to make it iconic, but by word of the people who make the game, it's one of the most played movesets even after all these games. It's popular, at the very least.

As for Kazuya, honestly, I like him and all but more Kazuyas is the last thing this series needs.
Not sure if I'd even say he's particularly well designed either. He has like 30 moves and EWGF is the best option 90% of the times.
But more than anything he doesn't have much to do with Ganondorf beyond being slow and evil. Kazuya at the end of the day is a combo-oriented character, while Ganondorf kills you with a single hit at very low %s if he gets a good read.
Ganondorf in competitive play just lacks some way to play neutral and maybe a better recovery. He works as intended otherwise.
 
Last edited:

superprincess

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 30, 2024
Messages
367
Location
Peach's Castle
Eh, I don't feel like going into a major spiel. So I'll shorten it by quite a bit, heh.
  • TOTK Ganondorf is a completely different person from the previous Ganondorf's. Which he shares some references, he has no clear ties to Demise. The others are designed so their evil is impossible to go away while the Triforce exists, because it hard ties Ganondorf to Demise. Ironically, this is just as much of a problem for Link and Zelda, but they're cursed differently. PH and ST also muddies this by still having evil that resembles Ganon, despite the Triforce being gone. The official story is Ganondorf lost his ties to Demise when he lost the Triforce. It's possible that Link and Zelda not dying in that battle apparently kept the reincarnation going?
  • TOTK Ganondorf is also a much different person. He's a horrific man by choice, but also never turns into a form of Ganon. So this means you already can't use Calamity Ganon as the OOT Ganon boss fight(if they would take HW's unique bipedal one, sure. Though he's still not Ganondorf, as Calamity Ganon is basically a being who came out of Ganondorf's body. This is the only time they're really separate people).
  • While they share the same bodyshape(it's hard to tell, due to Models Resource having them at different angles) apparently, this doesn't make it a good alt. The sword is most definitely not going to change how it functions because of the Samurai Blade that the TOTK version wields. That would change his playstyle too much. If it can't be clearly uses identical to his current broadsword, it fails as a weapon choice. Which is saying something, because even the Sword of Sages acts closer to the Broadsword. Almost ironically, considering it's a different kind of sword(but, well, magical sword?).
  • A costume reference works, but not if you have to extremely overhaul his functions to justify it. Overall, TOTK Ganondorf is significantly more different from the others. He makes more sense to keep separate if playable at all. And no, it doesn't matter if it's a second Ganondorf(which hilariously wouldn't be a second Ganon since he can't become the actual Ganon, hilariously enough). He's also not as iconic as OOT's either.
    • It does make more sense to use Pig Ganon as his own character in comparison, sure. He has an actual different weapon to use, and different skills.
  • Finally, the comparison to Link isn't too grand. Link already has functional differences that made him overall worse. The so-called upgrade changed too much in the end.
    • Ironically, Young Link is the Classic Link people wanted, but only to a degree. He plays much closer to the previous design since Smash 64. However, you know, not being more of a heavy-to-middleweight, low range, etc. doesn't help.
    • The idea a Classic Link echo is bad is pretty silly too. Besides actually functioning like the TP/OOT design more, it gives a better character, more unique options, but also has a modified playstyle that keeps the old one that some prefer. Others will flock to BOTW's design on its own, and that's cool too. Besides, it's pretty much not that much work as some. It's basically just taking the version from Wii U, using him, doing some balance, and at most giving him perhaps a different taunt or victory. In addition, it gives more overall options. The only downside is that they'd need to... figure out a naming scheme that makes sense. Since he's the previous Link, calling him Classic Link is weird. In fact, this is the only actual reason it's not feasible within the design philosophy. It's not a matter of "too much work" or that he won't be popular at all as a choice.
    • On the other hand... you just make BOTW Link the Echo instead. What name? Eh, I dunno. You can't go with BOTW Link either way. Wild Link was a pretty good and accurate name in comparison, I guess?
But yeah, you can see why they didn't do so. And they especially wouldn't change Ganondorf that much. BOTW Link actually made Link noticeably worse and less recognizable. It didn't actually work like it could've. It was a cool idea, but just like trying to buff Ganondorf, didn't work that well. Though it should be noted that Ganondorf, despite being his own bottom tier, is significantly more viable than Brawl and 4. In other words, they did actually make him better than the previous games, while ironically making Link worse in comparison. What does it mean? It means trying too hard to "promote the latest design" is not as feasible as people make it. Nor is combining the newest one with the latest one always the right call. Hell, should we need to note how terrible Brawl Ganondorf was? Even worse than how BOTW Link turned out? Yeah. The only thing to say about Brawl Dorf is that he was satisfying as hell to use(and him being a slower more brutish character did legitimately become a more proper portrayal. In fact, that became his canon personality to a degree within the games after WW. They kept going with the spin-offs, FSA, TOTK, and his alternate take in Age of Calamity, which doesn't even have GanonDORF in it. As noted above, Calamity Ganon is pretty much a separate being from Ganondorf this time instead of clearly the same person. But that's more due to basically being a split personality design-wise.

I should note that Zelda is a unique case where they did it right. Not just that she became quite a bit better compared to previous games, but they didn't focus too hard to changing her to the latest version, they updated her in a way that fits her well and made her better. She's the only one to get that kind of update(other than TP Link, respectively) to directly improve their previous game design(Ganondorf is kind of odd in that reverting to OOT, not updating his design, actually did improve him, but it didn't make him anywhere close to his Melee tiers) and improve in the meta. It's pretty clear Zelda characters trying too hard to promote the latest game has a noticeable bad effect on their options. It didn't work. To note further, this is Zelda's best placement in the entire Smash franchise. Because they tried to improve her, not try to "promote the latest abilities".

Overall, TOTK Ganondorf is cool, but he doesn't fit the current Dorf's mold very well at all. Nor would he make, say, a good Echo. A semi-clone or regular clone, perhaps. And that's iffy. He absolutely would make a terrible replacement too, since he's just not similar enough to be an ideal fixover. It was bad enough with the TP one, but he at least still could reasonably function in a similar manner(the loss of speed sucked, and Ganondorf wasn't even that slow in TP. It was a weird armor-related thing that really didn't need to be used that way. Like, he shouldn't be hyper fast by any means. Maybe a tad slower than Melee. That said, Ultimate returned much closer to his playstyle, including his previous functioning style, while still keeping the updated ideas that further benefited him since his design in Brawl.

It's also worth noting Brawl is pretty much the only time Ganondorf got any kind of real overhaul, and it hurt him badly. Albeit, not in the personality department. Just the gameplay one. He became significantly more canon-like, but lost viability hard. Ultimate doesn't really overhaul him so much as somewhat update him(for better or worse), giving him a weapon planned in Melee to use, and give him new tools. The good news is that despite Brawl's... issues, they actually made him make more sense in some ways. Him having a lot more super armor is significantly more accurate to him as a boss character in general. He's a tank, regardless of the pig form or not. His speed loss was the only issue, regardless of its original design reasoning. I do see him improving, but I don't see it through trying to promote an extremely different take on him as a good concept for it.


And yes, I'm all for Pig Ganon. But it does help he's functionally a very different character in abilities. He's both far more weapon and projectile-based, and uses both contact damage and teleport spam to a huge degree that changes up how he is from Ganondorf. And that's just one version of Ganon. Most of the Ganondorfs are fairly different in their options, but still function pretty similarly(only Toon Ganondorf is a bit different by having a lot more jumping capabilities that are never shown with the other two). TOTK Ganondorf however is a... completely different character. I would laugh if he was some kind of clone next game, though, assuming TOTK was the latest game. But don't forget they did skip over SS for Link(and that might be because his options weren't easy to update anyway. The stuff from that game is not really easy to promote while functioning rather similarly to the current Smash Link. BOTW still has the same core items, respectively. So they went with other ways to promote it).

Last thing to say is that when Link went to BOTW, it not only worsened him, it forced animation changes(that I can't say were necessary or not to change his handedness. It might be the assets required, though) too. The benefits were at most "he matches the latest game". In fact, his stuff that seems better is more because of the universal game changes and less so due to his updates. His Bomb Game and Grab Game are worse overall. He doesn't have an extra recovery option either. He's not a very good example of how to update a character.

-------------

FYI, when people mean Pig Ganon, they mean the ALTTP Trident-wielding warrior. he has absolutely zero appearances in the game, and is the most intelligent Ganon to exist. While some do have tactics, they vary. Quite funnily in a way;

  • OOT Ganon is a complete idiot. He just swings wildly and has zero control over his power. The Zelda 1 Ganon, despite being pretty dumb compared to Ganondorf's schemes, was still smarter.
  • WW and TP Ganons are both tactical bosses, despite no longer being a humanoid-like form. They're actually very smart.
  • Calamity Ganon, who actually isn't a form of Ganondorf for once, is just a pure force of hatred and has zero intelligence. He's lower than a complete idiot(who has at least the ability to think. OOT Ganon can recognize you and turn around. Calamity Ganon, outside of his HW non-canon bipedal form, isn't aware of things. He just exists and directly causes destruction. Basically a force of nature and mindless.
  • Zelda 1 Ganon is somewhat dumb compared to Ganondorf, but knows how to use his magic and physical abilities to destroy you. It's just his schemes aren't as notable now.
  • ALTTP Ganon is massively smart, using tons of unique magic and physical prowess too. He's not some pure magic or pure physical user(which... is what Ganondorf is in Smash. In fact, he encompasses the most iconic Ganon personality you can get. So in a way, he's far more accurate than other movesets try to portray him as. They forget a lot about his true versatility and his obsession with power).
  • Yuga Ganon really doesn't much count, since he was taken over by Yuga and is a mindless beast. So he has no control. Makes you feel a tad sorry for him, especially as this is the same one who was forced to be evil due to Demise's influence. Yuga chose to be evil. Ganon/dorf did not.
  • FSA Ganon is an oddball who clearly is the first true reincarnation, but basically is just like ALTTP Ganon overall. It doesn't lead into ALTTP either, as it's the end of the timeline. It's just an alternate method he acquires the Trident, making him quite smart.
    • (And only reincarnation, btw. The Ganondorf in TOTK has zero ties to any of the actual earlier Ganondorfs. The entire story changes too much and makes it its own effective story. It has light references to previous works, but it's basically no different from a non-canon spin-off in terms of continuity. That is, it has zero continuity with anything but BOTW, which works the same way. In other words, it's a canon game in its own story and really doesn't even fit the end of the timeline. It's even worse than other semi-inconsistent ones)
  • The other Calamity Ganon in AOC is a non-canon slightly smarter one. It resembles Zelda 1 Ganon in that way. He's still not very smart, but clearly capable. His intelligence is above 0, heh.
  • And the second mindless Ganon is somehow more stupid than the OOT one, being from the Oracle games. He's got no mind due to a botched ritual. He fights like ALTTP Ganon, but that's clearly on instinct. He's still a more difficult fight than OOT due to this, though. It's a bit closer to the TP fight where both forms of Ganon are beast-like, but clearly use unique skills. That, and it's probably because the sacrifice was of Twinrova, so she likely made sure his magic was at top power. That or, you know, reliving a classic fight. Ganondorf was meant to be appear in the game, but didn't make the cut. So it was likely due to that and it'd be a bad boss fight if he had no real skills. In addition, it is the resurrection of ALTTP Ganon too(now how he still has his Trident is a good question...).
Quick edit to note how the Ganons are massively different and why Pig Ganon(ALTTP only) is such a popular choice to add. They want an actual person with characterization, not a near mindless boss. Besides, Ganon in OOT is so vastly different from ALTTP Pig Ganon that you can tell them apart at a glance. Their body shape isn't even that similar. One is a hunched over monster with two swords. The other is a fully standing powerful beast man with a Trident and immense magic. Hell, OOT Ganon has zero access to magic. We wonder why. So no, we don't have "Pig Ganon" in Smash(not the one people mean). We have a mindless boss from OOT who was... the easiest boss fight in the game and kind of lame outside of his design. He was cool, but not an actual threat. Any player knows he's almost as easy as King Dodongo or frankly if you cheese Morpha hard.
Your argument is basically that TOTK Ganondorf is technically a different person but the truth is... nobody really cares? Like, we do, we know that, but casuals, they won't go into the details and they'll just be confused.

Also, if you think about it, all the characters who are alternate takes on another character get the point across really fast. Both visually and by name.
  • Dr. Mario: he's Mario as a doctor.
  • Young Link: Link as a child
  • Toon Link: cartoony Link
  • Zero Suit Samus: Samus in the Zero Suit
  • Dark Samus: a dark entity that absorbed Samus' DNA
  • Dark Pit: a Dark clone of Pit
Notice how these are all simple descriptors too, and not some arbitrary made up name? Also taking into consideration the character's visual identity?

What would TOTK Ganondorf mean? The name would just be confusing. "Demon King Ganondorf"? OOT Ganondorf is already a demon and a king alright. Nobody would get it at first glance either. He looks like the same Gerudo male in a different outfit (we know he isn't, but most people don't).

Plus Smash treats all versions of adult Link, Zelda and Ganondorf as sort of the same person. Notice how OOT Link/Zelda and TP Link/Zelda/Ganondorf weren't part of "everyone is here"? Notice how, no matter the incarnation, Link and Zelda's debuts are always listed as "The Legend of Zelda (1986)"?

The likelihood of TOTK Ganondorf in Smash is high, but his chances of being a separate character to the already existing one are almost zero. It just doesn't gel well with Sakurai's philosophy up till this point.
 

DarthEnderX

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
7,734
That's why Black Shadow'dorf is such a win-win-win.

Ganondorf, one of Nintendo's most important villains, gets to stop being a clone.
A classic Smash moveset gets preserved.
That moveset gets to be in the same franchise that it was cloned from.
F-Zero gets a 2nd character.
That character is the main villain.

What KH-esque and melodramatic about Subspace? It was a very simple story
A very simple story with a bunch of "Woody vs. Xenanort"-style cutscenes where you're supposed to think these cute characters getting mad at the darkness is badass, but it's just laughable. Unless you're 12, then you think it's da coolest.
 
Last edited:

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,034

Confirmation that Mario movie sequel is being worked on, TTYD out in May, LM2 HD in June, and the Dr Mario/Mario Golf/Mario Tennis coming to the Game Boy selection of NSO this Tuesday.

Interestingly enough the latter half of 2024 is now completely up in the air as far as releases. The (rumored) April Direct will be an interesting one to watch if it happens.
 
Last edited:

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,060
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Your argument is basically that TOTK Ganondorf is technically a different person but the truth is... nobody really cares? Like, we do, we know that, but casuals, they won't go into the details and they'll just be confused.

Also, if you think about it, all the characters who are alternate takes on another character get the point across really fast. Both visually and by name.
  • Dr. Mario: he's Mario as a doctor.
  • Young Link: Link as a child
  • Toon Link: cartoony Link
  • Zero Suit Samus: Samus in the Zero Suit
  • Dark Samus: a dark entity that absorbed Samus' DNA
  • Dark Pit: a Dark clone of Pit
Notice how these are all simple descriptors too, and not some arbitrary made up name? Also taking into consideration the character's visual identity?

What would TOTK Ganondorf mean? The name would just be confusing. "Demon King Ganondorf"? OOT Ganondorf is already a demon and a king alright. Nobody would get it at first glance either. He looks like the same Gerudo male in a different outfit (we know he isn't, but most people don't).

Plus Smash treats all versions of adult Link, Zelda and Ganondorf as sort of the same person. Notice how OOT Link/Zelda and TP Link/Zelda/Ganondorf weren't part of "everyone is here"? Notice how, no matter the incarnation, Link and Zelda's debuts are always listed as "The Legend of Zelda (1986)"?

The likelihood of TOTK Ganondorf in Smash is high, but his chances of being a separate character to the already existing one are almost zero. It just doesn't gel well with Sakurai's philosophy up till this point.
I never at one point said to call him TOTK Ganondorf. Where did you even get that from? That's quite clearly just referring to him specifically in context of describing how he's absolutely too different from all the other ones. And yes, Demon King Ganondorf works fine to separate him. It doesn't matter if that can refer to another version to begin with. It's clearly a different one in Smash. It's not like Smash doesn't have blatantly bad names. Changing Pikmin & Captain to just "Captain [Character]" was a blatantly incorrect and misleading name. It holds zero accuracy to how the character operates. Or do we need to go into the even worse Duck Hunt Duo? The character was designed as a Trio specifically, making the name just as inaccurate. Not every name is suddenly "perfect". Difference is this would hold at least some accuracy compared to those godawful dub changes. And they can still find a better name if they try.

Also, again, that doesn't work for Ganondorf compared to the others. He is the same person in canon. Until TOTK where he's explicitly a different person(but also is a different one in FSA too, who does not appear in Smash either, so it's moot). Zelda and Link started as combinations of more than one character. Ganondorf did not.

They don't treat Zelda and Sheik as the same person in Smash anymore either. 4 already separated them, but then suddenly, Ultimate made it clear they're different people. Zelda in ALTTP isn't treated as the same as OOT Zelda either. It's a different incarnation. They just have enough of the same personality to work with a similar enough moveset(and also the same overall build and known skills are close enough). The only true point is Zelda is at least a somewhat combination of more than one. Which is more or less why Toon Zelda appearing as playable is extremely unlikely unless they remove the Phantom, since that's literally her core and most known ability other than being able to shoot Light Arrows directly for the first time(which... was already pretty much absorbed by Zelda and Sheik anyway).

Those name examples don't really make sense either as a comparison; Dark Samus, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario existed prior to Smash. Of course it was simple. All it means is they need a better name. Besides that, they started to use a very cartoony design in Skyward Sword. People quite clearly didn't confuse that Link for the Toon Link design despite that. The issue doesn't exist. People only need to see "Oh, yes, they mean this Ganondorf" and it takes nothing to understand it's clearly a specific person/take on the character.

TOTK Ganondorf is most definitely not going to be the current Ganondorf overhauled. It has zero chance to happen. He operates way too differently, far more than even the weird BOTW Link design(which was already a pretty major change in practice . At least the freaking changes weren't so different his functions were turned into someone all new. And that's already ignoring the fact it was a terrible change in practice, due to botching it by destroying how good Link was at the time for a pretty mediocre set of changes that failed a lot to both encompass why BOTW was fun while making Link less fun to use from his previous self). Sharing a bodyshape isn't enough to justify an overhaul(and we have the lesson of why it didn't work. It was a legitimately interesting attempt, but it showed that just updating to the latest game isn't actually what makes a character good. What makes them good is actual balance updates that doesn't try to change their core too much. Losing so much of his game for a promotional change was a poor design. They did too little to make him worth the real update). Ganondorf became better without trying to make him like the latest game(despite the lowest tier, his viability shot up), and that's not how they treated Zelda either, who got a significant improvement.

Finally, let's be clear that TOTK Ganondorf being a separate person isn't not just the first time where he has a massive role while doing so, but due to his major differences, it's impossible to paste him onto the current Ganondorf without too much of an overhaul. Which is really why it won't be more than a reference(at best). Characters don't get such extreme overhauls, as it's too alienating. That's a factual design factor. The sword doesn't even make sense. He may be a costume and some aesthetics, but his influence won't be high either way. You're still getting Falcondorf back. He isn't leaving. If you want one that uses what TOTK Ganondorf can do? You get another all new character or you can rely on Game Mods at best. Which is far more likely the latter anyway. We're unlikely to even get another Zelda character. Though I'd like one to also keep in mind the only actual Zelda characters ever planned was Toon Zelda and Toon Sheik(no, Tetra was not planned in the game. Obviously if they revisited the idea, she has a reasonable chance. But she probably would get in before Toon Zelda, who is pretty clearly represented in the current Zelda). Yes, two more clone characters were the only other planned Zelda ones.

Honestly, even trying to compare Ganondorf's situation to the others just doesn't work. He was never in the same position. They don't even bother to combine him with the WW one, who has zero presence in the moveset beyond arguably a costume. Something to keep in mind here is that Ganondorf's appearance in Brawl all the way to Ultimate is the same person, just older. This is not the case at any point for Zelda, Sheik, or Link. They were the only ones to upgrade to using skills or designs from a different person. Why would that change for Ganondorf outright(moreso for an overhaul that wouldn't make sense, due to too many differences). Besides, Link was not based upon OOT only even in Smash 64. He already couldn't use the Boomerang, which is a skill from other versions. Upthrust and Downthrust were not a skill that Link could even know. Those skills did return... during TP for the first time again(and that was mainly Downthrust. Upthrust generally doesn't see any use beyond the fighting game takes on Link, but that's due to no more sidescrolling games anyway).

You see, if TOTK Ganondorf was pretty similar to the earlier different Ganondorfs at all, this would make sense to take influence from. But... he isn't. He clearly uses the same core model shape, but that's it. They're way too different, and he has no relation to them. Why do you think Ganondorf returned to his OOT design in Ultimate? It wasn't just because of the Sword alone. It's because there was no other to exist that would fit his current moveset or personality. He's still a smug evil man. But he has mannerisms that went unchanged. The sole real difference was the massive decrease in speed(as I noted, the armor idea was a big weird, and to say the least, despite clearly being the same core character, was a massive change alone on its own that made him harder to adjust to in Brawl. While also ironically holding quite a lot more accuracy to the source material).

Either way, he won't get some big overhaul. Nobody does. Is it possible for him to get some influences? Sure. But there's not really much to take beyond a Calamity Ganon Final Smash(due to functioning overall as an easy design swap). You can't really change the weapon outright due to them functioning differently. He doesn't fight similarly enough for it to make sense(even the Ganondorf in TP has more in common with the OOT one). He got his overhaul quite enough(which is mostly minor and doesn't change that much). As I said before, we learned what trying to hard to "add a promotional new design can do", and it made Link really bad. And it's even lucky they didn't have to entirely change his core(if they did, it wouldn't have happened. That's the reason they couldn't work with Skyward Sword. He doesn't have the right options to really update with, or give very similar skills). It should also be noted this is why WW Ganondorf wasn't used. Because while sharing quite a bit with certain skills, his fighting style doesn't mesh with any of Smash Ganondorf's at all. TP Ganondorf had a few moves that were a bit easier to put onto Ganondorf while updating him, but not changing his core. TOTK Ganondorf... isn't in that boat. He's just... highly different.

You could even call the fact that Ganondorf never updates to a different person, sure. But why would he? He already has a very fitting moveset that directly focuses on his skills as a human and is barely missing much of anything. All he lacks is; his energy ball(which at least was more coded to him than DMV, as he didn't even introduce the move in 3D. His clone did. But it was still meant for Aga and boss fights only), maybe the earthquake punch(which is already pretty much Warlock Punch. It does help it's pretty much the same animation and impact, just done differently), the ability to reflect projectiles(a skill he actually needs in Smash to be far more viable), and his teleportation(which can be argued if it would work better than Dark Dive or its variants. We wouldn't know without seeing it in practice. That said, he doesn't use it much as a human, so it's not necessarily that important. Dark Dive does actually encompass his ability to float to a minor degree, funnily enough).

A lot of people actually do care that they're different people. Casuals included who know the story. Like, he's nothing like the other Ganondorfs. In fact, this is also why people question some choices. You think Young Link and Toon Link automatically mesh well with everyone, even casuals? They know they're different people and still care. Some really don't like the idea of separate Links. And no, they aren't competitive players either. This does exist. Trying to paint them all under the same brush isn't a reasonable way to find accurate data. Here's the best way to put it; "nobody cares" is always going to be wrong. And is a bad argument because of it. It's never a worthwhile one to make. We at least have some remote data of people hating massive overhauls due to alienating playerbases(and it's from the creator of Smash himself). It's not the best data either. But it's actually findable.

I do also notice you're quite clearly trying to make my argument very very different here. If you really tried to boil down my argument to "he's a different person" and that's it, you didn't really read into exactly why it didn't work. Why they don't combine Ganondorf with Ganon's skills. Or anything like that. He is nothing like the other Zelda characters, who exist entirely on a different design philosophy. You could even say the fact he was created as a clone first in mind is exactly why he'll never get that kind of overhaul. The others did because they functioned on a different design level. They all used skills from different people under the same name, had it hard made up, or even more specifically, were a combination of more than one person. A composite. Ganondorf, unlike the others, was never designed as a composite character. Just a clone that also further became more accurate to Ganondorf's portrayal... in the games that star the same person, anyway. Ganondorf in TOTK functions quite differently from the other three Ganondorfs. Thus, him being used to overhaul the current one has no real chance because it doesn't fit the mold. Being lightly referenced? Could happen. Being a Spirit? Probably more likely. Being a separate character? Definitely more likely than some illogical overhaul that destroys the core of the character(and if Link is any indication, even a more minor overhaul like that was proven to be a bad idea).

At the end of the day, the name of a second Ganondorf is irrelevant. Casuals will recognize him immediately once they simply play him and see his design. They know it's a different take on the character. It's not even a matter of being a different person or not in that particular case. The only actual challenge is a good name. It's still more likely than some overhaul. Since that goes completely against how Smash works in practice. He's a cool design, but too different. He's pretty much the equivalent of SS Link here; nothing that can clearly be used to properly update Ganondorf anyway while not changing his core. And nobody's core was ever changed in the history of Smash. Expecting it now is ultimately a fun dream.
 
Last edited:

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,060
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Is this a bad time to ask everyone what Mario characters they want in smash cause it’s Mario day? Or indeed what mothers they want in smash cause it’s Mother’s Day?
  • Metal Mario(Echo or Clone, depending how Weight is officially defined for Echoes)
  • Paper Mario
  • Waluigi
  • Toad(but not with Captain Toad as any kind of alt. Toadette can work, but I think she should be separate now)
  • Toadette
  • Captain Toad(only cause he sounds interesting with no ability to jump)
  • King Boo
  • Geno
I... cannot think of any Mothers I specifically want. Twinrova admittedly would be the best choice otherwise, heh. In a twist, Samus is one, so we do have at least one. Toon Zelda could be another one, at least according to the story. XD But unlike the first two, that's obviously not one in any kind of characterization.

(I consider Pauline/Lady to be a DK character, mind you. Though to be fair, Modern Pauline is clearly a Mario one, while classic one is clearly more DK-coded. I am not including any Yoshi originating characters, Wario originating, or DK originating since I do treat them as different franchises like Smash does).

...How did I forget to add Geno? I do legitimately want him. I guess he wasn't on my bigger mind or something. To be fair, I also didn't buy the remake(may do so later).
 
Last edited:

CapitaineCrash

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
2,676
Location
Canada, Québec

Confirmation that Mario movie sequel is being worked on, TTYD out in May, LM2 HD in June, and the Dr Mario/Mario Golf/Mario Tennis coming to the Game Boy selection of NSO this Tuesday.

Interestingly enough the latter half of 2024 is now completely up in the air as far as releases. The (rumored) April Direct will be an interesting one to watch if it happens.
Pretty cool NSO updates tbh, but where's Mario land Nintendo?

On the rumored April direct, I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. I just genuinely don't think that Nintendo have enough stuff to announce to have a big direct only 2 months after we just got a Partner showcase, in which they announced already Endless ocean which is an actual first party Nintendo games. The whole point of Partner showcase is "we have nothing to announce right now, but here's a few third party games that we legally have to announce in a presentation". Both in Summer 2020 and Summer 2022 we got no big direct and instead we only got partner showcase and specific game direct (like Monster hunter and Mario in 2020 and Xenoblade and Splatoon in 2022). So I don't expect a big direct until June as sad as it sounds. If I'm wrong then good, but it truly feels like the Switch is on his last legs and I just don't see what they would have to announce at this point aside maybe from Prime 4, but that wouldn't fit a big 40 minutes direct alone obviously.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,034
The big x factor in all this is if the next console was in fact delayed to early next year and what consequence that had on this year's releases, especially the second half, which as noted, has nothing announced for it. If there are any notable first party games coming in July-November, it might be more ideal to announce them early enough to build marketing hype, especially for early summer titles.

It could go either way realistically. An April Direct (maybe with a shadow drop to have a major first party game that month?) and revealing the late summer/fall games (whether they be ports or new titles), or maybe doing a June direct with the understanding that anything notable announced wouldn't coming till August at the earliest (barring a hypothetical shadow drop).
 
Top Bottom