Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

Very late but, re: Samus again

While I do want to be retooled, I'd still want to stay (retooled as well of course.)

I think the best way to do this (at least to me) would be to up PSS' speed/agility and bring ZSS closer to PSS, turning her into a sort of semi-clone. Basically, retool them into a sort of middle ground to bring PSS up to speed and make ZSS less work by sharing a lot of animations/moves. Plus, in or out of the suit it's still Samus. I feel like sharing some more attacks between both versions just makes sense.

A few moves would be outright replaced to make room for some new tools like her more recent uppercut counter (preferably as like an up smash or something not an actual counter special.) This then naturally leads to also becoming more unique by way of Samus being the one who changes. (Though I'd still want for DS to get some new stuff too.)

I'd personally change them like this (long post warning):

Spoiler

Attribute Changes

- Space Jump - Samus now has 3 midair jumps, matching the Pits
- Speed is increased to slightly below that of current who is in turn brought down just a tad to match her armored version.

Aesthetic Changes

- Default look changed to a blend of the Super Metroid and Samus Returns Varia Suit. The Dread version of the Power Suit is available as a costume as well.
- Default look restored to being primarily based Zero Mission. To address the "primarily" part:

Okay, I don't like the heels, but I really like the fire/spark effects they leave behind in Ultimate, so I have two possible directions for ZSS. The first is to retain the jet boots idea but turn them into actual boots. The second is to be more faithful to the Zero Mission design and ditch the jet boots idea altogether.

So, for ZSS, assume any kick attacks she has retain their current look/effects, just not coming from high heels. For scenario two, I will be including a second Up Special as an alternative. Granted, with most of her moves being made up anyway, and Smash being Smash, I don't think she even necessarily needs the jet boots to justify a flashy rising kick, but just in case, I did want to include an alternative to Boost Kick.

- Her grounded dodges are now her signature cartwheel.


Attacks

Neutral Attack - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version. She'll use her Paralyzer to pistol whip the opponent in place of the arm cannon.

Dark Samus (icon refused to be placed here for some reason?) - A downward claw swipe followed by a swing of her arm cannon.

F-Tilt - Inherits the ZS version. Unchanged. Unchanged.

U-Tilt - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version. An overhead, arcing, claw swipe. Somewhat similar to Bowser's but not as lengthy, stopping at her shoulder on the downward part of the arc.

D-Tilt - Inherits the ZS version. Unchanged. Unchanged.

Dash Attack - Both get changed to the slide she can use in Metroid. Unchanged.

F-Smash - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version, there is a difference though. First off, she's of course using her paralyzer as opposed to the arm cannon, but her version changes depending on the angle much like Little Mac's F-Smash. The forward and upward angled versions are pretty much the same, but the low angle would be her current D-Smash.

The attack being performed is still technically the same, but I thought it might be interesting to incorporate her cloning ability. The overall power has been reduced, but her F-Smash now works at range as a clone will appear a set distance in front of Dark Samus and perform the same attack. There is a safe distance between both the original and the clone, so a well-spaced roll can avoid both if you want to get closer to Dark Samus and try to catch her on recovery.

U-Smash - Both get changed to her Melee Counter from Returns/Dread. Unchanged. Conveniently looks like one of her boss fight attacks already.

D-Smash - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version. Her Phazon tendril attack from MP3 that she also had as an assist trophy in Smash 4.

N-Air - Screw Attack; Functions a bit closer to how it does in Metroid, causing damage but not gaining sudden height like the current Smash version. It's also no longer a high hitstun, multi-hit as that combined with her new multiple jumps would be overkill. Retains her N-Air.

F-Air - ZSS for both. Unchanged.

B-Air - Either works here as well, they're both already pretty much the same move. Quickly turns and fires a short-range burst. Reliable KO tool that also propels her forward. (Side tangent, also has the same B-Air. I would change his to wide lash from his tail or something.)

U-Air - ZSS for both. A wide, arcing claw swipe. Somewhat similar in motion to Marth's Up Air, but a tad slower at the end of the animation due to her floaty nature.

D-Air - ZSS for both. Unchanged animation wise. Aesthetically it's "trail" would match the color/effects of her other Phazon infused attacks.

Z-Air - Both retain their Z-Air, though they do function a little differently so probably change ZS to match PS. Removed.

Grab/Throws - I don't have anything specific here, but I'd want to see throws get updated to be of similar style to the counter/grab sequences from Dread. would get the same throws just utilizing the paralyzer instead.

She'd still have a ranged grab but would instead spawn an echo a short distance away who would grab the opponent instead. The clone would hold and raise the opponent by the collar/neck and pummel the opponent by using Phazon energy. Similar to Lucario's Aura pummel. For balance purposes, Dark Samus will of course not be able to move and will instead be assuming the same pose as though grabbing someone, essentially controlling her echo directly from a short distance away.

F-Throw - The echo blows up in a cloud of Phazon energy launching the opponent away.

B-Throw - The echo turns and tosses the opponent towards Dark Samus. The original catches the opponent and also turns, slamming the opponent into the ground behind her.
U-Throw - The echo turns and tosses the opponent towards Dark Samus. Recycling Melee Counter Up Smash, Dark Samus will launch the opponent by uppercutting them.

D-Throw - The echo turns and slams the opponent into the ground similar to the end of Back Throw. The echo however holds the opponent down as Dark Samus fires at the downed opponent.

Specials

Charge Beam - Samus fires her Arm Cannon. Can be rapid fired for medium range shots with light damage and 0 knockback or held for a more powerful shot with high damage/KB. If already firing/charging, Samus can begin moving to run and shoot at the same time. Charge cannot be stored.

Missile - Samus fires a missile from her Arm Cannon. If you hold the button, you can stand in place and alter the angle of the shot. Continue holding briefly to fire a Super Missile instead.

Shinespark - Samus will briefly hover in place, building up energy, and then shoot off into the direction held. Functionally similar to Fire Fox/Fire Bird for the startup but the attack being a single fast and strong impact like Wolf Flash.

Bomb - Tap to drop a bomb. Functions pretty much like the current version. You can, however, also keep the input held after the bomb drops to remain in Morph Ball mode (once in Morph Ball, you can release the input). In Morph Ball mode, you can move along the ground, hop and drop bombs with special. Pressing the regular attack button, shielding, double jumping or simply pressing up will disengage Morph Ball mode. Not particularly useful and more of just a fun easter egg. You become a lot harder to hit with such a small hurt box, but you'll get knocked around farther by any attacks that do land.

Specials

Paralyzer - Unchanged.

Plasma Whip - This move is now a rekka style move with different whip attacks depending on the direction pressed similar to Marth's Dancing Blade. The whip's length gives this move slightly more range than DB (still gotta be close, not giving it Belmont range or anything crazy like that) and is meant to be used in conjunction with quick uncharged hits with the paralyzer at mid-range or as a follow-up for tilts at close range. Also useful for spacing/poking.

Being multiple hits now, it lacks the immediate damage/KB of the old version of Plasma Whip. And as stated above, while ranged it's not too long. It can be used to land hits from a mid-range distance using the end of the whip but will not combo if too far away. Opponents will be knocked back by the tip, so it must be used at a closer range to be used as a rekka.

Boost Kick/Plasma Ring - Unchanged in scenario one. In scenario two, Samus will leap into the air while spinning, swinging the whip around herself in a circular motion, somewhat similar to Link's Spin Attack in function (but less power/hits.).

Flip Jump - Retains the same function but can now be jump canceled or cancel into her aerials.

Specials

Phazon Beam - Dark Samus fires blasts of Phazon energy. Hold for continuous fire. Longer range than Samus' Charge Beam but cannot be charged.

Missile - Functionally identical to Samus'.

Darkspark - Same move as Samus' Shinespark. This version travels a shorter distance in exchange for higher power.

Morph Boost - Curls into Morph Ball and rockets forward a short distance. Direction can be changed twice after the initial boost. Can be used to combo opponents or aid in recovery.

And going back to aesthetics briefly to end off, I'll treat this hypothetical as though characters can have multiple costumes like in other fighting games (though I'll still cap it at 8). In this case I would give:

• Varia Suit (Super/Returns)
• Power Suit (Dread)
• Power Suit (Metroid)
• Fusion Suit (Fusion)
• Light Suit (MP2)
• Dark Suit (MP2)
• PED Suit (MP3)
• Metroid Suit (Dread)

• Zero Suit (Zero Mission)
• Casual (Zero Mission)
• Casual (Fusion)
• Training (Fusion)
• Civilian (Other M)
• Leotard/"Justin Bailey" (Metroid)
• Two-Piece (Metroid)
• Two-Piece (Super Metroid)

• Default (MP2/3)
• Phazon Charged (MP2)

Less to work with for Dark Samus. I'd honestly be okay with some creative liberty being taken to make original costumes too (for any character in general.) In Dark Samus' case I think it'd be neat if they went in both directions. Another more monstrous looking costume like in some of the concept artwork where it practically enters Resident Evil territory (looks pretty similar to G from RE2 in some concepts.) And then on the flip side, doubling down on the Samus part and making a helmetless almost human version where it really does take on Samus' appearance. In a way a partially unmasked/unarmored human-like Dark Samus could function as a pseudo/proxy Metroid 1 Justin Bailey reference too since she'd retain the arm cannon and other abilities.

 

[7NATOR]

I don't think we're getting two or more newcomers from one franchise in base game. It just isn't necessary imo. Most series already have their staples and their fan favorites, so double dipping seems really pointless right now. Last time a series double dipped in base game was Mario in Smash 4 and even that almost didn't happen (Junior was low priority and almost cut according to Sakurai). I'm obviously not counting echoes in this. So no Lucina/Robin, Palutena/Dark Pit and Ridley/Dark Samus don't count.

Pokémon gets a fighter every time, and said fighter is always a recency pick. I'm pretty sure Smash and Pokémon Gen 10 are both in the works right now, with Gen 10 probably coming out next year, while Smash will have to wait till 2026 at the earliest. So the next Mon in Smash is looking to be a Greninja situation. And with the competition between newcomers being rather tough, I don't see a Pokemon from Legends ZA getting in alongside the inevitable Gen 10 one. The mainline game will obviously out prioritize a spinoff.

I'm gonna disagree and say that there are some franchises where, at least at this current point, I'd be willing to double-dip on newcomers in one game.

Mario, as I like both Toad and Waluigi and both would seem justified.
Zelda, as there are a lot of options that have been passed over previously and it would be very satisfying to get someone from BotW/TotK and still have space for a legacy character.
Pokemon, which has no shortage of evergreens from across the series that I'd like to see get a shot.
Animal Crossing, a series whose representation is lagging due to not being added until Smash 4; Tom Nook is a clear top choice, but I'd love to see someone beyond him considered in addition, for example KK Slider.
Potentially Splatoon, if Octoling is borrowing resources from Inkling, since it definitely has more to offer than just another clone.
Really, I'd even accept two Kirby newcomers if it means we can get someone besides Dee.

So on the Franchises that have Double Dipped (with Unique Characters) in the Series, we have

Mario (Melee with Bowser and Peach, Smash 4 with Rosalina and Bowser Jr.)

Zelda (Melee Kind of, if you count Zelda and Shiek as seperate)

Kirby (Brawl with King Dedede and Meta Knight)

Pokemon (Brawl with Pokemon Trainer and Lucario)

Fire Emblem (Smash 4 with Robin and Corrin, however Corrin was DLC)


In these cases, The only times there wasn't Special Circumstances involved in getting the characters in were with Bowser and Peach and King Dedede and Meta Knight. These were Staple characters to their Franchises

Bowser Jr. was one of the Characters that "Almost" didn't make it for Smash 4, but Lucario was also in a Similar situation in Brawl. If not for the Efforts of the Programming team, he might not have made it into Brawl as well

Miiverse - Sakurai's Post | Nintendo (archive.org)

Zelda and Shiek might not count towards this since the Gimmick relied on Transforming into another character.

With Corrin, He was chosen as a DLC Newcomer to Represent a Recent Nintendo game, and Sakurai was actually at first adverse to adding in another Fire Emblem character

I will say that at this point, All of the First Parties Mostly have their Staple characters in the roster, and if they don't, it's likely they only need to add in One more character at most to Complete it

Still I can see Double Dipping happening, especially if this Next Smash game as a Long DLC Cycle, in Particular

-Gen 10 Pokemon
-XC4 Character
-New Fire Emblem Character

Seem like the Good options for Double Dipping through DLC, if their Franchises get another Newcomer in Base game

And personally, I don't think Gen 10 will be on the Base Roster Because I don't think you need to do the Recency thing anymore on the base roster. That's what DLC is for, and Nintendo are now really getting comfortable doing DLC.

For Base game, I don't know about Double Dipping, at least in according to Unique Newcomers. There are two cases I could see this happening for, and that's for Pokemon (if they do both Gen 8 and Gen 9, and I think it has the credentials to have both in the game) and Mario (if Geno and Waluigi both get in)

The thing with Zero Suit Samus is that she isn't holding Samus back. Samus already was designed that way well before her arrival. They're split up now entirely, so it's not really going to matter that ZSS is in the game either. Samus isn't getting updates because her design is a specific playstyle established since Smash 64. She needs some, but not ones that mess heavily with her playstyle. Just better things in general. More options. The problem more stems from more characters and that she can't keep up that well. She was never very high even in the first game, taking 8th place out of 12th. She's at least in the B+ Tier in Melee, her best game. But as the characters got added, she got pushed to the wayside. Blaming ZSS isn't really fair here. You could maybe say that during Brawl(though that partially stems from usage), but 4 and Ultimate? Where they're completely separated and have zip to do with each other overall? Yeah, no.

It sucks she's doing so badly, agreed. Cutting ZSS won't help her one bit. What will help her is what I said above, actually taking the time to improve her overall. She really needs updates anyway. Also, for people who play the Metroid series, she's not actually that fast of a character in her suit. She is somewhat sluggish and uses a slower gameplay. If anything, she's actually pretty accurate. Still, she needs better general stuff.

This(the characters being held by another one "hostage", if you will) was only true for Zelda/Sheik(since they were designed together) and Pokemon Trainer(and Ultimate dropped the issue, since Charizard was able to go solo before. They're still balanced around each other, but nowhere near as badly as Brawl). To the point he's in the A- Tier of Ultimate, compared to the E Tier he was in during Brawl. So yes, they significantly changed him, while having the Pokemon together. Notably, Charizard was in the E tier as well in 4. It benefited from the combo.

I would honestly Say that there could be an Argument for Samus's best game actually being Ultimate. She's represented at a Top level (with Sisqui, Quik, and Yaura) and right now I would say surpasses ZSS for the first time ever, even if ZSS has the higher high with winning an actual Major(S) thanks to Marss.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

My wife is psyched for Z I'm like ? Then she blurted out some pokemon and did a fade and sang all the way down the hallway. This was a good reveal apparently so YAY for Pokemon on Pokemon Day and Polar Bear Day allegedly.

View attachment 385615

This may some tone-deaf but i don't get it. What is the appeal of Pokemon?

I've played S&M and it was alright but from what i've seen. The Switch Pokemon games are awful yet sell gangbusters. Games more broken than 06 yet breaking sales-records. People calling announcements a "social events/phenomenon". Weird.

 

[NintenRob]

This may some tone-deaf but i don't get it. What is the appeal of Pokemon?

I've played S&M and it was alright but from what i've seen. The Switch Pokemon games are awful yet sell gangbusters. Games more broken than 06 yet breaking sales-records. People calling announcements a "social events/phenomenon". Weird.

A big appeal are the Pokémon themselves, people really grow attach to them as the go on a big adventure training and growing together. To become the very best like no one ever was. It's a winning formula that people love.

The quality of those games have sadly diminished but the core of those games are still fun (for the most part). Strategizing in battle is fantastic and has enough depth to even hold it's own competitive events. Pokémon battles are just fun.

 

[Curious Villager]

So there something I've been wondering

How do you feel about More Casual elements being introduced to Smash Bros?

I think in comparison to something like Mario Kart, which is really easy for Casual players to play (and part of why Mario Kart sells so much more than Smash), Smash has some complicated elements in it that some of us might take for granted

For example, just the Concept of Recovery is something I've literally seen people struggle with. In the past, The King of Fighters Stadium was the best stage to play on because you didn't have to worry about Recovery

So how would you feel about more Casual elements being added to Smash, stuff like

-Auto Controls, Maybe something like Characters will automatically Move for you. in Vs Matches, towards other players, and in Single Player modes, toward the Destination and/or Enemies. They could also do other actions like Shield, Attack, Grab, and recover for you also. However You can press buttons to take over

-More Stages where Recovery is not Necessary, Something like King of Fighters Stadium, Bridge of Eldin (when the bridge isn't broken) and Mario Galaxy and Figure-8 Circuit. perhaps even all Stages could have Variations where the need to recover isn't needed, like how there's Omega and Battlefield variations of every stage

-More Modes that are based around teaming with other Players. I know some of the most fun that I've had with my Cousin playing Smash was playing Subspace in Brawl, and playing online in Smash 4 since when we go against each other, I usually whoop him. So Something like a Big Story mode, or a Boss Rush, or some type of party mode where you can team up maybe up to 8 players, going against Bosses and enemies

-SplitScreen. Especially good for big Areas and Stages, there could be Split screen so it would allow the Camera to zoom in Close on the characters, while at the same time being able to track everyone

-Autorevive. After a Certain amount of time passes, even if all your Stocks are gone, you can be Revived if the match isn't over


Of course all these options would be optional, but I think it could be good for making Smash Easier to control and understand for Causals

I'd like it if they finally updated Special Smash, its pretty much been untouched since Brawl, how are we still not able to mix and match between individual players so we can do stuff like Metal Mario vs Giant Donkey Kong vs Bunny Hood Link vs Invisible Fox etc instead of everyone being the exact same thing? We've been able to do this via cheat codes since Melee, just make it an official thing at this point...

 

[NintenRob]

I'd like it if they finally updated Special Smash, its pretty much been untouched since Brawl, how are we still not able to mix and match between individual players so we can do stuff like Metal Mario vs Giant Donkey Kong vs Bunny Hood Link vs Invisible Fox etc instead of everyone being the exact same thing? We've been able to do this via cheat codes since Melee, just make it an official thing at this point...

Spirits help with this to a certain extent

 

[Curious Villager]

Spirits help with this to a certain extent

Spirits start you out with these power ups, you still have a limited time to use them, then you're pretty much back to normal for the rest of the battle...

 

[NintenRob]

Spirits start you out with these power ups, you still have a limited time to use them, then you're pretty much back to normal for the rest of the battle...

I don't think I've ever actually done a spirit battle before in Smash. I'll have to test out what happens when you lose a stock, do you respawn with the effect active again or is it gone for good?

 

[fogbadge]

Games more broken than 06 yet breaking sales-records.

now that is slander

also why people like something isn't really something that can be explained. by all accounts popularity is just a random phenomenon

 

[Curious Villager]

I don't think I've ever actually done a spirit battle before in Smash. I'll have to test out what happens when you lose a stock, do you respawn with the effect active again or is it gone for good?

You have the power ups only at the start of the match for a few moments, then its gone for good.
Not sure about things like Healing Smash attacks though.

 

[BritishGuy54]

In terms of double dipping, Xenoblade could happen…

Noah being picked may seem like a chance to get an easy clone of N. Alternatively, Rex’s adult design lends itself to a completely unique moveset compared to Pyra/Mythra.

I don’t think it’s all that likely, but I would not rule it out.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

now that is slander

also why people like something isn't really something that can be explained. by all accounts popularity is just a random phenomenon

Have you seen Scarlet and Violet? That might be an understatement

Also it isn't solely random. Pattern and attributes can be deduced why popularity comes especially when popularity lasts for so long. If it was as random as it came and then randomly it would soon fade away.

 

[fogbadge]

Have you seen Scarlet and Violet? That might be an understatement

Also it isn't solely random. Pattern and attributes can be deduced why popularity comes especially when popularity lasts for so long. If it was as random as it came and then randomly it would soon fade away.

have you? its problems are largely graphical with the game breaking bugs mostly being found by the vocal minority where as sonic 06 is completely broken with wonky mechanics. people liked many of the new characters in S&V but the same was not true of many of the newcomers in 06. people still like the catching and raising of Pokemon but they didn’t take to silver’s powers of the dodgey platforming in the way of sonics speed

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

S&V at least as a fundamentally sound game at the center even if the experience is wonky at points. 06 has an overall questionable design at its core and bad story that's compounded by the glitchy gameplay.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Speaking on Casual Elements for Smash.

What if there was a feature where you could add NPC characters to be announcers and narrate a Smash match, where they would comment, talk to each other, make jokes and even give tips to the player during the fight?

Which characters do you think would fit bill? Waluigi, Gruntilda, Mr.Resetti?

 

[ZacSc]

So on the Franchises that have Double Dipped (with Unique Characters) in the Series, we have

Mario (Melee with Bowser and Peach, Smash 4 with Rosalina and Bowser Jr.)

Zelda (Melee Kind of, if you count Zelda and Shiek as seperate)

Kirby (Brawl with King Dedede and Meta Knight)

Pokemon (Brawl with Pokemon Trainer and Lucario)

Fire Emblem (Smash 4 with Robin and Corrin, however Corrin was DLC)


In these cases, The only times there wasn't Special Circumstances involved in getting the characters in were with Bowser and Peach and King Dedede and Meta Knight. These were Staple characters to their Franchises

Bowser Jr. was one of the Characters that "Almost" didn't make it for Smash 4, but Lucario was also in a Similar situation in Brawl. If not for the Efforts of the Programming team, he might not have made it into Brawl as well

Miiverse - Sakurai's Post | Nintendo (archive.org)

Zelda and Shiek might not count towards this since the Gimmick relied on Transforming into another character.

With Corrin, He was chosen as a DLC Newcomer to Represent a Recent Nintendo game, and Sakurai was actually at first adverse to adding in another Fire Emblem character

I will say that at this point, All of the First Parties Mostly have their Staple characters in the roster, and if they don't, it's likely they only need to add in One more character at most to Complete it

Still I can see Double Dipping happening, especially if this Next Smash game as a Long DLC Cycle, in Particular

-Gen 10 Pokemon
-XC4 Character
-New Fire Emblem Character

Seem like the Good options for Double Dipping through DLC, if their Franchises get another Newcomer in Base game

And personally, I don't think Gen 10 will be on the Base Roster Because I don't think you need to do the Recency thing anymore on the base roster. That's what DLC is for, and Nintendo are now really getting comfortable doing DLC.

For Base game, I don't know about Double Dipping, at least in according to Unique Newcomers. There are two cases I could see this happening for, and that's for Pokemon (if they do both Gen 8 and Gen 9, and I think it has the credentials to have both in the game) and Mario (if Geno and Waluigi both get in)



I would honestly Say that there could be an Argument for Samus's best game actually being Ultimate. She's represented at a Top level (with Sisqui, Quik, and Yaura) and right now I would say surpasses ZSS for the first time ever, even if ZSS has the higher high with winning an actual Major(S) thanks to Marss.

If there would be more newcomers, the game would be more interesting. I see newcomers being added, but not very many.
That's just my opinion. Are there plans to increase the number of newcomers?

 

[NintenRob]

I wonder how Smash fans would react if they started taking the NASB approach to character selection.

No ****s given, our only Star Fox character is now Krystal.

 

[ZacSc]

Speaking on Casual Elements for Smash.

What if there was a feature where you could add NPC characters to be announcers and narrate a Smash match, where they would comment, talk to each other, make jokes and even give tips to the player during the fight?

Which characters do you think would fit bill? Waluigi, Gruntilda, Mr.Resetti?

As a commentator for a sports match? Sounds interesting

 

[Oracle Link]

Very late but, re: Samus again

While I do want to be retooled, I'd still want to stay (retooled as well of course.)

I think the best way to do this (at least to me) would be to up PSS' speed/agility and bring ZSS closer to PSS, turning her into a sort of semi-clone. Basically, retool them into a sort of middle ground to bring PSS up to speed and make ZSS less work by sharing a lot of animations/moves. Plus, in or out of the suit it's still Samus. I feel like sharing some more attacks between both versions just makes sense.

A few moves would be outright replaced to make room for some new tools like her more recent uppercut counter (preferably as like an up smash or something not an actual counter special.) This then naturally leads to also becoming more unique by way of Samus being the one who changes. (Though I'd still want for DS to get some new stuff too.)

I'd personally change them like this (long post warning):

Spoiler

Attribute Changes

- Space Jump - Samus now has 3 midair jumps, matching the Pits
- Speed is increased to slightly below that of current who is in turn brought down just a tad to match her armored version.

Aesthetic Changes

- Default look changed to a blend of the Super Metroid and Samus Returns Varia Suit. The Dread version of the Power Suit is available as a costume as well.
- Default look restored to being primarily based Zero Mission. To address the "primarily" part:

Okay, I don't like the heels, but I really like the fire/spark effects they leave behind in Ultimate, so I have two possible directions for ZSS. The first is to retain the jet boots idea but turn them into actual boots. The second is to be more faithful to the Zero Mission design and ditch the jet boots idea altogether.

So, for ZSS, assume any kick attacks she has retain their current look/effects, just not coming from high heels. For scenario two, I will be including a second Up Special as an alternative. Granted, with most of her moves being made up anyway, and Smash being Smash, I don't think she even necessarily needs the jet boots to justify a flashy rising kick, but just in case, I did want to include an alternative to Boost Kick.

- Her grounded dodges are now her signature cartwheel.


Attacks

Neutral Attack - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version. She'll use her Paralyzer to pistol whip the opponent in place of the arm cannon.

Dark Samus (icon refused to be placed here for some reason?) - A downward claw swipe followed by a swing of her arm cannon.

F-Tilt - Inherits the ZS version. Unchanged. Unchanged.

U-Tilt - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version. An overhead, arcing, claw swipe. Somewhat similar to Bowser's but not as lengthy, stopping at her shoulder on the downward part of the arc.

D-Tilt - Inherits the ZS version. Unchanged. Unchanged.

Dash Attack - Both get changed to the slide she can use in Metroid. Unchanged.

F-Smash - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version, there is a difference though. First off, she's of course using her paralyzer as opposed to the arm cannon, but her version changes depending on the angle much like Little Mac's F-Smash. The forward and upward angled versions are pretty much the same, but the low angle would be her current D-Smash.

The attack being performed is still technically the same, but I thought it might be interesting to incorporate her cloning ability. The overall power has been reduced, but her F-Smash now works at range as a clone will appear a set distance in front of Dark Samus and perform the same attack. There is a safe distance between both the original and the clone, so a well-spaced roll can avoid both if you want to get closer to Dark Samus and try to catch her on recovery.

U-Smash - Both get changed to her Melee Counter from Returns/Dread. Unchanged. Conveniently looks like one of her boss fight attacks already.

D-Smash - Unchanged. Inherits the PS version. Her Phazon tendril attack from MP3 that she also had as an assist trophy in Smash 4.

N-Air - Screw Attack; Functions a bit closer to how it does in Metroid, causing damage but not gaining sudden height like the current Smash version. It's also no longer a high hitstun, multi-hit as that combined with her new multiple jumps would be overkill. Retains her N-Air.

F-Air - ZSS for both. Unchanged.

B-Air - Either works here as well, they're both already pretty much the same move. Quickly turns and fires a short-range burst. Reliable KO tool that also propels her forward. (Side tangent, also has the same B-Air. I would change his to wide lash from his tail or something.)

U-Air - ZSS for both. A wide, arcing claw swipe. Somewhat similar in motion to Marth's Up Air, but a tad slower at the end of the animation due to her floaty nature.

D-Air - ZSS for both. Unchanged animation wise. Aesthetically it's "trail" would match the color/effects of her other Phazon infused attacks.

Z-Air - Both retain their Z-Air, though they do function a little differently so probably change ZS to match PS. Removed.

Grab/Throws - I don't have anything specific here, but I'd want to see throws get updated to be of similar style to the counter/grab sequences from Dread. would get the same throws just utilizing the paralyzer instead.

She'd still have a ranged grab but would instead spawn an echo a short distance away who would grab the opponent instead. The clone would hold and raise the opponent by the collar/neck and pummel the opponent by using Phazon energy. Similar to Lucario's Aura pummel. For balance purposes, Dark Samus will of course not be able to move and will instead be assuming the same pose as though grabbing someone, essentially controlling her echo directly from a short distance away.

F-Throw - The echo blows up in a cloud of Phazon energy launching the opponent away.

B-Throw - The echo turns and tosses the opponent towards Dark Samus. The original catches the opponent and also turns, slamming the opponent into the ground behind her.
U-Throw - The echo turns and tosses the opponent towards Dark Samus. Recycling Melee Counter Up Smash, Dark Samus will launch the opponent by uppercutting them.

D-Throw - The echo turns and slams the opponent into the ground similar to the end of Back Throw. The echo however holds the opponent down as Dark Samus fires at the downed opponent.

Specials

Charge Beam - Samus fires her Arm Cannon. Can be rapid fired for medium range shots with light damage and 0 knockback or held for a more powerful shot with high damage/KB. If already firing/charging, Samus can begin moving to run and shoot at the same time. Charge cannot be stored.

Missile - Samus fires a missile from her Arm Cannon. If you hold the button, you can stand in place and alter the angle of the shot. Continue holding briefly to fire a Super Missile instead.

Shinespark - Samus will briefly hover in place, building up energy, and then shoot off into the direction held. Functionally similar to Fire Fox/Fire Bird for the startup but the attack being a single fast and strong impact like Wolf Flash.

Bomb - Tap to drop a bomb. Functions pretty much like the current version. You can, however, also keep the input held after the bomb drops to remain in Morph Ball mode (once in Morph Ball, you can release the input). In Morph Ball mode, you can move along the ground, hop and drop bombs with special. Pressing the regular attack button, shielding, double jumping or simply pressing up will disengage Morph Ball mode. Not particularly useful and more of just a fun easter egg. You become a lot harder to hit with such a small hurt box, but you'll get knocked around farther by any attacks that do land.

Specials

Paralyzer - Unchanged.

Plasma Whip - This move is now a rekka style move with different whip attacks depending on the direction pressed similar to Marth's Dancing Blade. The whip's length gives this move slightly more range than DB (still gotta be close, not giving it Belmont range or anything crazy like that) and is meant to be used in conjunction with quick uncharged hits with the paralyzer at mid-range or as a follow-up for tilts at close range. Also useful for spacing/poking.

Being multiple hits now, it lacks the immediate damage/KB of the old version of Plasma Whip. And as stated above, while ranged it's not too long. It can be used to land hits from a mid-range distance using the end of the whip but will not combo if too far away. Opponents will be knocked back by the tip, so it must be used at a closer range to be used as a rekka.

Boost Kick/Plasma Ring - Unchanged in scenario one. In scenario two, Samus will leap into the air while spinning, swinging the whip around herself in a circular motion, somewhat similar to Link's Spin Attack in function (but less power/hits.).

Flip Jump - Retains the same function but can now be jump canceled or cancel into her aerials.

Specials

Phazon Beam - Dark Samus fires blasts of Phazon energy. Hold for continuous fire. Longer range than Samus' Charge Beam but cannot be charged.

Missile - Functionally identical to Samus'.

Darkspark - Same move as Samus' Shinespark. This version travels a shorter distance in exchange for higher power.

Morph Boost - Curls into Morph Ball and rockets forward a short distance. Direction can be changed twice after the initial boost. Can be used to combo opponents or aid in recovery.

And going back to aesthetics briefly to end off, I'll treat this hypothetical as though characters can have multiple costumes like in other fighting games (though I'll still cap it at 8). In this case I would give:

• Varia Suit (Super/Returns)
• Power Suit (Dread)
• Power Suit (Metroid)
• Fusion Suit (Fusion)
• Light Suit (MP2)
• Dark Suit (MP2)
• PED Suit (MP3)
• Metroid Suit (Dread)

• Zero Suit (Zero Mission)
• Casual (Zero Mission)
• Casual (Fusion)
• Training (Fusion)
• Civilian (Other M)
• Leotard/"Justin Bailey" (Metroid)
• Two-Piece (Metroid)
• Two-Piece (Super Metroid)

• Default (MP2/3)
• Phazon Charged (MP2)

Less to work with for Dark Samus. I'd honestly be okay with some creative liberty being taken to make original costumes too (for any character in general.) In Dark Samus' case I think it'd be neat if they went in both directions. Another more monstrous looking costume like in some of the concept artwork where it practically enters Resident Evil territory (looks pretty similar to G from RE2 in some concepts.) And then on the flip side, doubling down on the Samus part and making a helmetless almost human version where it really does take on Samus' appearance. In a way a partially unmasked/unarmored human-like Dark Samus could function as a pseudo/proxy Metroid 1 Justin Bailey reference too since she'd retain the arm cannon and other abilities.

View attachment 385616

I read Retool both samus and zero and thought what a waste but them sharing a moverset (for the most part)
Lets it make more sense!
But to be honest zero isnt an impotant part of the franchise so a helmetless alt (and more speed for samus) would make more sense!
I mean the resaon why i keep toon link for example is cause smol/Classic and big/Modern link have been the main character for multiple games!
Zerosuit samus was used only a couple of times in gameplay!

I much rather fullfill the wishes of some players that wanted a metroid in the game (yes some japanese fans voted metroid for the smash 2 poll) and thats one of the only characters thats didnt get in no wonder they hate on ridley!

Samus (with a helmetless alts), Metroid Larva, Ridley, Dark samus and Raven beak/emmi is like the perfect metroid rep foes of samus from almost every game she appeared in! Metroid (from the little i know) is defined by samus and her cavalcade of alien Advesarys!


But speaking of metroid and its Evil Aliens!
Lets talk abot some villains eh?

 

[Gorgonzales]

Lets talk abot some villains eh?

It's super weird that Porky wasn't in Ultimate in any capacity, especially since he was a boss in Brawl. Spirits cover basically every Nintendo character under the sun and then some, and the fact that the Absolutely Safe Capsule is there but not Porky makes it feel like an oversight on the part of the devs, kind of like how there's a spirit for Yarn Poochy but not regular Poochy.

 

[Gengar84]

I read Retool both samus and zero and thought what a waste but them sharing a moverset (for the most part)
Lets it make more sense!
But to be honest zero isnt an impotant part of the franchise so a helmetless alt (and more speed for samus) would make more sense!
I mean the resaon why i keep toon link for example is cause smol/Classic and big/Modern link have been the main character for multiple games!
Zerosuit samus was used only a couple of times in gameplay!

I much rather fullfill the wishes of some players that wanted a metroid in the game (yes some japanese fans voted metroid for the smash 2 poll) and thats one of the only characters thats didnt get in no wonder they hate on ridley!

Samus (with a helmetless alts), Metroid Larva, Ridley, Dark samus and Raven beak/emmi is like the perfect metroid rep foes of samus from almost every game she appeared in! Metroid (from the little i know) is defined by samus and her cavalcade of alien Advesarys!


But speaking of metroid and its Evil Aliens!
Lets talk abot some villains eh?

There’s a ton of villains I’d love to see in Smash. I’ll go over a few I’d love to see.

Magus (Chrono Trigger) - Magus started the first half of Chrono Trigger as the main antagonist but you were able to recruit him to your party later on if you interacted with him in the right way. This may have happened at some point before him but to my knowledge he was the first main antagonist I know of that could become a member of your party. Magus is the only character in the series that was ever planned to have a major role in all three games. It didn’t quite work out that way in Chrono Cross due to time constraints but there were hints in rereleases that Magus and Guile may still be the same person. Magus has a very unique weapon for Smash in a scythe and he’d give us another mage which I think we could use a few more of.

Fulgore (Killer Instinct) - Despite being a villain, Fulgore is basically the face of Killer Instinct like how Nightmare is to Soul Calibur. KI has had a huge history with Nintendo with their partnership with RARE back in the day. I believe they owned nearly half the stock in the company at one point before they were acquired by Microsoft. With the games recent announcement for a return to Nintendo hardware and rumors of a new game in development, I think now is the best time for another RARE character. KI seemed to be the focus of the announcement on the direct so it makes the most sense for a second character. The games have amazing music and iconic announcer calls that could be incorporated into Fulgore’s moveset.

Sarah Kerrigan (StarCraft) - StarCraft was hugely influential in popularizing competitive online gaming. Unlike WarCraft, it also has some history with Nintendo thanks to StarCraft 64. Kerrigan would be a great representation for the RTS genre since she is the queen of the Zergs. She could work by summoning units using a resource system similar to Hero’s MP. They could work in various ways from simple attacks that disappear after the animation, traps, and wandering units. I think she could be a really cool and unique character for Smash since we don’t really have a summoner yet. Microsoft’s acquisition of Blizzard is something that may contribute to her chances though I can’t say for sure whether it helps or hurts. They do seem to have a very positive relationship with Nintendo but she does have a lot of competition.

Jinx (League of Legends) - Jinx is one of the most popular characters from LoL and was the focus of Arcane along with Vi. I think either of these could work well in Smash along with several other options. We’re getting a second season of Arcane at the end of the year and the LoL fighting game, 2XKO is releasing next year. I think the franchise is at the peak of its popularity as far as the general audience.

There are tons of others I’d love to see that either are villains or have been at some point. Here’s a few more of my most wanted in no particular order: Xemnas, Sub-Zero, Diablo, Illidan, Medusa, Jenna Anderson, Lu Bu, Nightmare, Ganon, The Black Knight, Raven Beak, Pharaoh Man and Jessie/James/Meowth.

 

[NintenRob]

Skull Kid is my most wanted but he isn't necessarily a villain, in some ways he's a victim. But I do want him in using Majora's Mask so it still counts.


But I'll also shout out to King Boo. Give Luigi his arch enemy! Also Smash does have a playable ghost and King Boo is my favourite ghost around.

 

[Jave]

View attachment 385626
It's super weird that Porky wasn't in Ultimate in any capacity, especially since he was a boss in Brawl. Spirits cover basically every Nintendo character under the sun and then some, and the fact that the Absolutely Safe Capsule is there but not Porky makes it feel like an oversight on the part of the devs, kind of like how there's a spirit for Yarn Poochy but not regular Poochy.

My theory on this has always been that Porky was supposed to return as a boss in World of Light, but wasn't included due to time constraints, so his Spirit was cut along with his battle and they either forgot to put a regular Spirit Battle or it was too late to program one.

 

[Perkilator]

Lets talk abot some villains eh?

Eggman is my most wanted villain character in Smash, followed in joint second place by Raven Beak.

 

[RileyXY1]

It's also possible that there was never meant to be a Porky Spirit at all and the Absolutely Safe Capsule Spirit was meant to be the Porky Spirit. It fits with the general brand of humor seen in Earthbound.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sonic 06 on the other hand isn't prone to random crashes. It's actually pretty difficult to find some game-breaking bugs in that game(they require you to heavily go out of your way for most. It was easier to figure them out in Sonic Adventure 1/DX, notably). They do happen more often in SV.

They're both poorly optimized games regardless. But yes, SV has more popular characters. The comparisons also don't really mean much. They're completely different kind of games and under different situations. It's not simply a matter of "what's broken", but there's too many different factors to why they have issues and why one easily sells more.

7NATOR That also goes to my point on how ZSS is clearly not holding Samus back. She did just fine because she was improved. ZSS just simply has better tools, including being a faster character, which heavily helps in Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

Sonic 06 on the other hand isn't prone to random crashes. It's actually pretty difficult to find some game-breaking bugs in that game(they require you to heavily go out of your way for most. It was easier to figure them out in Sonic Adventure 1/DX, notably). They do happen more often in SV.

They're both poorly optimized games regardless. But yes, SV has more popular characters. The comparisons also don't really mean much. They're completely different kind of games and under different situations. It's not simply a matter of "what's broken", but there's too many different factors to why they have issues and why one easily sells more.

First I’ve ever heard of SV randomly crashing

 

[FazDude]

Lets talk abot some villains eh?

Other than the Mammoth Mogul in the room, I'd be down to see Ganon, Majora (w/o Skull Kid, preferably), Kamek, Dark Matter, Hades, the Ghost Gang, M. Bison, DJ Octavio, and Geese join the roster, at least in terms of pure main antagonists. Eggy takes top priority for me, though.

 

[NintenRob]

First I’ve ever heard of SV randomly crashing

Trust me, it definitely happens. Happened quite a few times for me.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

First I’ve ever heard of SV randomly crashing

I've seen it on stream many times, and had people constantly talk about it.

It's rather common.

------------

As for villains;

-Fulgore
-Medusa
-Dracula(he's actually quite interesting, as he's his own character and gets retconned into having more in common with the Bram Stoker's version)
-Pig Ganon(the original ALTTP design. He's got tons of tools to work with, and isn't just a giant roaring beast like the ones depicted in Smash)

Otherwise, I'd love to see Giga Bowser fully playable, same with Master Hand and Crazy Hand. Not sure how well you can work with the other Smash Bosses(I.E. Duon). But the first three are rather plausible in comparison.

 

[fogbadge]

I've seen it on stream many times, and had people constantly talk about it.

It's rather common.

Surely it’s been patched out

 

[NintenRob]

Surely it’s been patched out

Pokémon actually fix things with a patch? Surely you're jestin !!

 

[fogbadge]

Pokémon actually fix things with a patch? Surely you're jestin !!

well I find it hard to believe everyone in my circle has avoided the game crashing on them for a whole year

 

[Gengar84]

well I find it hard to believe everyone in my circle has avoided the game crashing on them for a whole year

It’s crashed on me a couple of times but I’ve put several hundred hours into the game. Its usually just really bad slowdown in certain areas like the Savannah in the DLC and the giant lake in the main game but it’s definitely completely kicked me out before.

 

[NintenRob]

well I find it hard to believe everyone in my circle has avoided the game crashing on them for a whole year

It tends to happen in longer play sessions. Also I mean no offence here Fog, truly, but based on other things you've said, your circle, or at the very least awareness of going ons, isn't exactly widespread.

Aside from crashes, the game has a number of performance issues. From my experience alone, so things I have personally encountered, you have:

-The extremely buggy Raid dens where the game just struggles to keep up with everything.
-A lot of slow downs, the game does not have a consistent frame rate and has a lot of pop in
-Getting caught on like a flower bed or something while riding Koraidon where you basically get stuck in a falling animation and the game has to reset you back to your last position
-A weird glitch where Koraidon wouldn't swim and I'd just sort of get stuck in the water. The game would have to reset me again.

 

[Gengar84]

It tends to happen in longer play sessions. Also I mean no offence here Fog, truly, but based on other things you've said, your circle, or at the very least awareness of going ons, isn't exactly widespread.

Aside from crashes, the game has a number of performance issues. From my experience alone, so things I have personally encountered, you have:

-The extremely buggy Raid dens where the game just struggles to keep up with everything.
-A lot of slow downs, the game does not have a consistent frame rate and has a lot of pop in
-Getting caught on like a flower bed or something while riding Koraidon where you basically get stuck in a falling animation and the game has to reset you back to your last position
-A weird glitch where Koraidon wouldn't swim and I'd just sort of get stuck in the water. The game would have to reset me again.

That falling Koraidon glitch can be pretty funny. I found out how to purposely trigger it near the vitamin shop in the main city using the umbrellas and it’s fun to move around in that pose for a while before the game resets your position.

Kind of unrelated but you know what always kind of bugged me about Koraidon? The fact that it has wheels on its front in its design but it never uses them. It just runs normally like any other animal. Why even give it the wheels at that point? I still like the design a lot overall just that aspect I found kind of dumb.

 

[Greenhorne Ethan]

Glad to have found this thread. Regarding villains, my more realistic pick is definitely Raven Beak, but I'd love classic Ganon too. Really, as long as classic Zelda has playable representation with Zelda herself, I'll be happy on that front.

 

[chinkuru]

Speaking on Casual Elements for Smash.

What if there was a feature where you could add NPC characters to be announcers and narrate a Smash match, where they would comment, talk to each other, make jokes and even give tips to the player during the fight?

Which characters do you think would fit bill? Waluigi, Gruntilda, Mr.Resetti?

Grunty would be funny and Cranky

 

[fogbadge]

It tends to happen in longer play sessions. Also I mean no offence here Fog, truly, but based on other things you've said, your circle, or at the very least awareness of going ons, isn't exactly widespread.

uh huh. and how do we know that what you've experienced is the wide goings on?

Aside from crashes, the game has a number of performance issues. From my experience alone, so things I have personally encountered, you have:

-The extremely buggy Raid dens where the game just struggles to keep up with everything.
-A lot of slow downs, the game does not have a consistent frame rate and has a lot of pop in
-Getting caught on like a flower bed or something while riding Koraidon where you basically get stuck in a falling animation and the game has to reset you back to your last position
-A weird glitch where Koraidon wouldn't swim and I'd just sort of get stuck in the water. The game would have to reset me again.

frame rates and prop ins are not game breaking bugs you can't count them. and as i said the people who do experience them are in the minority

I mean you tell me my circle isn’t big enough before giving me an example size consisting entirely of yourself

 

[Swamp Sensei]

uh huh. and how do we know that what you've experienced is the wide goings on?

Social media.

I had very few issues playing Scarlet, but my good experience doesn't invalidate other people's experiences.