im not saying that. I’m saying they’re not as common as people claim
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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
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DarthEnderX
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Gotta' catch Everyone Is Here!
They're not awful. They just...aren't nearly as large an improvement as they SHOULD be, given that they are the first full Pokemon games on a console.
Pokemon was always a series that didn't innovate much, but that was always forgiven due to the fact that it was a handheld series and that came with a lot of understood limitations. Not that they're a console series, people were expecting them to do more, better. And they're kinda just continuing to do the slow, incremental improvement thing.
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And I won’t dispute that
CapitaineCrash
Smash Champion
Why would they choose a character based on a poll that was held 25 years ago?
And just for fun I checked and no, Metroid isn't "one of the only characters thats didnt get in". James Bond, Toad, Mew, Mr. Saturn, Ash, Goey, Sukapon, Lugia, Lip and Prince Richard ranked higher than Metroid.
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Japan doesn't hate Ridley. Where is this coming from?
Kirbeh
Smash Champion
Main issue is that now that they are on console the shorter dev time for larger projects and lack of experience making such projects really shows. The slow improvements are now playing catch up to industry standard as opposed to adding some new bells and whistles to keep things fresh. I mean the bells and whistles are still there but the base their attached to isn't as solid as past entries.
I've personally never encountered anything substantial glitch wise in S/V just a lot of frame drops/slow down, excessive pop in and lighting glitches/texture glitches on some occasions.
That said, I would simply consider myself lucky as there are plenty of examples of just how bad it can get. Granted I don't think SV is broken to the point of being completely unplayable but the performance issues and glitches present are numerous and often enough to be considered unacceptable imo.
I've personally never encountered anything substantial glitch wise in S/V just a lot of frame drops/slow down, excessive pop in and lighting glitches/texture glitches on some occasions.
That said, I would simply consider myself lucky as there are plenty of examples of just how bad it can get. Granted I don't think SV is broken to the point of being completely unplayable but the performance issues and glitches present are numerous and often enough to be considered unacceptable imo.
Hydreigonfan01
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Make Meowscarada an Echo Fighter of Joker then
DarthEnderX
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Fighters
1. M. Bison [Street Fighter]
2. Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
3. King Hippo [Punch-Out]
4. Firebrand [Gargoyle’s Quest]
5. Vergil [Devil May Cry]
6. Wesker [Resident Evil]
7. Kerrigan [StarCraft]
8. And of course...the most vicious, dastardly, organized criminal of them all...Kazuma Kiryu! [Yakuza]
Echo Fighters
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]
Bosses
Mother Brain [Metroid]
Andross [Star Fox]
Porky [Earthbound]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Liquid Snake piloting Metal Gear REX [Metal Gear]
Eggman piloting Death Egg Robot [Sonic the Hedgehog]
Dr. Wily piloting Wily Machine [Mega Man]
Safer∙Sephiroth [Final Fantasy]
Astaroth [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
Diablo [Diablo]
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CapitaineCrash
Smash Champion
Also just to jump back on two older topics:
On the topic of ZSS, I honestly don't mind that much the high heels, tho I can totally understand where the hate come from. People seems to think that they're a Smash original, and while this is kind of true, Zero suit did have high heels in Other M, the design which Samus is based. I mean, imo they shouldn't have based Samus on Other M in the first place obviously (and Ultimate should have changed that), but my point is that Samus in high heels isn't 100% original idea. Also both Peach and Bayonetta fight in high heels and it never really was an issue with those characters as far as I'm aware.
On the topic of doubble dipping, not counting dlc and echo fighters personally the only franchise that I think it could happen is Mario and Splatoon, but even those it would highly depends of the number of newcomers because if we have again 6 newcomers in base game I don't see double dipping happening at all. If we're back to a Brawl or Smash 4 number of newcomers I could maybe see it happening for Mario and Splatoon but not really for any other franchise, even Pokémon and Animal crossing.
On the topic of ZSS, I honestly don't mind that much the high heels, tho I can totally understand where the hate come from. People seems to think that they're a Smash original, and while this is kind of true, Zero suit did have high heels in Other M, the design which Samus is based. I mean, imo they shouldn't have based Samus on Other M in the first place obviously (and Ultimate should have changed that), but my point is that Samus in high heels isn't 100% original idea. Also both Peach and Bayonetta fight in high heels and it never really was an issue with those characters as far as I'm aware.
On the topic of doubble dipping, not counting dlc and echo fighters personally the only franchise that I think it could happen is Mario and Splatoon, but even those it would highly depends of the number of newcomers because if we have again 6 newcomers in base game I don't see double dipping happening at all. If we're back to a Brawl or Smash 4 number of newcomers I could maybe see it happening for Mario and Splatoon but not really for any other franchise, even Pokémon and Animal crossing.
HyperSomari64
Smash Master
Are there any villains you wanna see as Assist Trophies?
Gengar84
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I’m just happy there’s at least one other person here that would like to see Fulgore and another that would like to see Kerrigan. I know I’m still in the minority but it’s refreshing to see I’m not completely alone here.
As for Black Knight as an Ike echo, I think it could technically work but I feel like he’d probably be closer to a Falcon/Ganondorf style clone than a true echo. I picture the Black Knight basically playing like Exdeath in Dissidia where he has very slow default movement but can teleport to move around much faster. He could have a bit of super armor for very weak projectile attacks to help offset his movement speed as well. I believe the Black Knight also had a projectile attack from his sword that was basically a laser beam if I remember right. He could still share a lot of the basic attack animations from Ike but I feel like they’d play a bit differently.
As for Black Knight as an Ike echo, I think it could technically work but I feel like he’d probably be closer to a Falcon/Ganondorf style clone than a true echo. I picture the Black Knight basically playing like Exdeath in Dissidia where he has very slow default movement but can teleport to move around much faster. He could have a bit of super armor for very weak projectile attacks to help offset his movement speed as well. I believe the Black Knight also had a projectile attack from his sword that was basically a laser beam if I remember right. He could still share a lot of the basic attack animations from Ike but I feel like they’d play a bit differently.
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KillerCage
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Thoughts on this roster for Smash 6?
The base roster would have 49 characters (not counting Echo Fighters).
32 1st party veterans plus three 3rd party veterans will be joined by 12 1st party newcomers and 2 3rd party newcomers.
The DLC would consist of 2 1st party veterans (though Diddy Kong would paired with Dixie Kong as a tag team character like they were originally planned in Brawl), 3 1st party newcomers, and 5 3rd party newcomers.
seems a bit duff to me
RileyXY1
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When it comes to adding more than one newcomer for a franchise, it has only happened four times without any of the characters being clones, those being Pokémon in Smash 64 (when it added both Pikachu and Jigglypuff), Pokémon in Brawl (when it added both Pokémon Trainer and Lucario), Kirby in Brawl (when it added both Meta Knight and King Dedede), and Mario in Smash 4 (when it added both Rosalina and Bowser Jr..
Gengar84
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I’d honestly be pretty bummed out by this roster. I like some of the ideas for newcomers but none really match the favorites like Sephiroth and K. Rool that I’d be losing. I think I’ll probably buy the game regardless but I’d likely go back to playing Ultimate after a month or two.
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Gorgonzales
Smash Lord
I can actually get behind this. These are solid choices and I think you mostly kept the correct characters around for series with multiple reps.
Props for making Diddy & Dixie a duo, having only five 3rd Parties at launch, and your modest but still nice lineup of newcomers.
Personally I'd replace the three Mii Fighters with... anyone else, since me (and I'm guessing many others) would much rather play as actual characters than stand-in OCs. My choices would be King K. Rool, Banjo-Kazooie, and maybe squeeze in an extra newcomer like Rhythm Heaven, but I'd be fine with anyone other than the Miis.
Also I'm not personally on board with Alear as a DLC newcomer, but hey, props for being realistic, lol
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Speed Weed
Smash Master
Saki is one of, if not my most-wanted first-party character, but....why would he get in? He doesn't have the tremendous fan demand of Isaac, he's not so old that he could slide in as a designated "throwback" pull like Takamaru, I feel like they'd have very little driving them to add him
BritishGuy54
Smash Ace
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It’s okay. But it feels dull. A few of my favourites are gone. The veteran roster feels very weak and stuck in the past. I remember a few pages back here where we saw a veteran roster of 30 which felt weak, and it shows here too. I wonder how a more modern-leaning roster of 30 would turn out.
Having newer characters from the Switch era while cutting Ultimate’s newcomers from the Switch era feels wrong. The base game newcomers are all very solid though. Though I’m still not convinced Konami will play ball next game.
The DLC feels… questionable. It feels very stereotypical western fan-demand centric. Even in Ultimate, we only got Banjo and Sora as the big obvious fan picks (1/6 of all DLC characters).
Sorry to be rude, but...this roster is honestly not too exciting for me. There are a handful of characters that I like but it's not worth it for me to lose a bunch of favorites.
RileyXY1
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There's so many characters you cut that I highly doubt will be cut:
Daisy: Her increased prominence in the series nowadays, especially with her grand return to the mainline series in Mario Wonder, makes me think she'll stay.
Young Link: He's basically the de facto rep of classic Link now that the regular Link was modified to match Breath of the Wild.
Falco: He's too iconic due to his prominence in the Melee competitive scene, which was why I think that he was specifically kept over Wolf in Smash 4.
Charizard: He's one of the most iconic Pokémon in existence and Ash's 2nd most prominent Pokémon, only behind Pikachu.
Lucario: He's the most recognizable Pokémon not from Gen 1 who got his own movie, is frequently used by trainers like Maylene, Cynthia, Korrina, Gladion, and even Ash, and was prominently highlighted in XY as the intro to the game's new mechanic, Mega Evolution.
Chrom and Lucina: I'm keeping these two simply because of how massively popular and iconic Awakening is. It saved the entire franchise from death after all.
Byleth: Three Houses was a massive success and one of the biggest Fire Emblem games ever.
Isabelle: She's basically the face of modern Animal Crossing. No way is she getting cut.
Simon: Konami was very much on board with Castlevania getting in, with the series getting a second rep right out of the gate, a whole world based on it in WOL, a boss, and over 30 songs. I highly doubt he's going anywhere.
Snake: If Simon's staying around, why not keep their other iconic veteran too?
Terry: The fact that he came with so much content, even from outside of Fatal Fury itself, makes me think he's staying. Sakurai even came up with a list of 50 songs he wanted to ask SNK to include and they responded with "all of it".
Mega Man: He's very much an iconic character, and Capcom is a very lenient company to work with. They even allowed Mega Man to die in a trailer.
Also, your DLC list has no Square Enix reps, not even veterans like Cloud, Sephiroth, Hero, and Sora, and is heavily tailored towards Western audiences over the Japanese audience.
Louie G.
Smash Hero
How does Melee not count for Mario? Dr. Mario being there doesn't disqualify that Peach and Bowser were added as two original characters. Hell, if we want to be technical Zelda got two unique characters in Zelda and Sheik as well. Melee was especially generous to those two series.
If I'm being honest, that batch of newcomers feels a bit too heavy on the recency bias without taking further into account the wider scope. Removing more contemporary and popular new additions like Isabelle and Pyra / Mythra in exchange for some of these feels like one step forward and two steps back. Particularly Isabelle - I promise you that Animal Crossing is not dipping below two characters and is probably on its way to three. She is straight up one of Nintendo's biggest characters right now. I wish people would realize this and stop cutting her, it's VERY egregious.
I just feel like whenever people throw Raven Beak, Noah / Mio, Alear, Astral Chain etc on their roster and just shoo away some of the most popular and marketable Nintendo characters of their modern history, it's missing the forest for the trees. By the time we reach a first fighters pass, there's no way Alear will be relevant enough to try and pawn off like that. And having to buy Diddy Kong and Ike would be kind of insulting, at this point. Even with Dixie attached.
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RileyXY1
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I said "multiple", not "two" in my post. I did disqualify any time a clone was added.
KillerCage
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I understand the feeling as I was trying to be somewhat realistic and plenty of the cuts I had make hurt.
Megaman, Simon, Pyra & Mythra, and R.O.B. were particularly painful.
I was limited by the options. If it were up to me, I would had swapped Meowscarada with Cynthia (one of the few good idea Thorgi did have in his roster) and Saki with Mike Jones. I also couldn't cut the Miis as they would be too lucrative money makers
Shinuto
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God I can never understand why so many people think its reasonable to cut THIS many 3rd party characters. Why the hell would they cut Sora when he was the literal winner behind the HUGE marketing event of the Smash Ballot and the FINAL addition in Ultimate as the culmination of ALL that time? Lets take all those incredibly hype characters we made DLC and just flush em down the toilet for the next game.. These rosters are less than Smash 4 a game where IIRC Sakurai never stated any issues in regards to the roster size like with Ultimate..
WeirdChillFever
Smash Hero
I don’t think this roster is particularly realistic. Ultimate still had six full newcomers on top of Everyone is Here for the base game. This roster cuts considerably more characters than even a regular Smash game while only adding an amount of characters that is pretty typical for a Smash game. Newcomer-wise the choices are pretty business-as-usual and goes for the latest characters, but this feels hollow when the representation of the history of the franchise has been cut down. No one’s clamoring for Shantae when Cloud is gone, for example.
Gorgonzales
Smash Lord
I get the sentiment but I guarantee you that if Nintendo started selling actual costumes for characters, that would fill in the niche that the Mii Fighters would leave behind. I can't get behind the reason keeping Miis being "yeah but costume DLC tho" when you can apply that to any other character in the game and possibly reap more rewards from them.
In a roster this size, I would not keep the Miis around. They're fun, but it's better to give that dev time for actual characters.
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Dinoman96
Smash Master
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TBF he kinda did...
Sakurai: Change of direction may be needed for next Smash Bros.
The last two games from Masahiro Sakurai, Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Kid Icarus: Uprising, packed in a ton of content. Brawl featured a full single-player mode, a number of multiplayer modes/options, an “Event” mode, trophies and stickers to collect, and lots more. Uprising offered a...
nintendoeverything.com
Louie G.
Smash Hero
I agree with the sentiment that this roster is too conservative but Sora isn’t really the best example. I’m sure they’d try to bring him back as DLC but if he got cut it’s not because they deliberately didn’t want him. It’d be because Disney wants DLC money.
I personally could do away with the Miis in a super conservative scenario, but it’s not equivalent. Miis open up the door for more varied crossover potential which has become a very valuable asset. DOOM, Undertale, Devil May Cry etc etc get nothing without them, and those probably sold incredibly well. More than like… Mario’s Sunshine outfit or Dread Suit Samus, if we’re being honest.
I want more character specific costumes too but Miis are far more bang for your buck in terms of the sheer scope of what can be represented. They’re intrinsically built around that premise.
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Kirbeh
Smash Champion
I just don't like the way they look tbh, plus Other M being Other M, people don't like the association. I've got nothing against the jet boot idea on its own, the execution just doesn't work for aesthetically imo. I would've liked to have seen a design closer to that of the Power Suit mixed with some elements from the High Jump Boots. Actual boots that still resemble the material/style that the Power Suit is made of as opposed to the weird metal frame high heels with neon lights.
As a prediction don't see it.
On a personal level, can't say I'm too fond of it either, (but I honestly don't think anyone here could ever make a roster others would agree with. Just the nature of differing tastes.)
The big gripes I'd pin down though:
- I'd prioritize actual characters over bringing back the Miis.
- Easier inclusions like echoes should still be on the table imo, whereas here they're just cut to lower the head count despite having less impact resource wise.
- The cuts vs newcomers feel a bit lopsided. For example; dropping DK to a single fighter but adding Impa who is a much less major character both in her own series and in overall Nintendo fandom compared to Diddy and K. Rool.
- I do take issue with the culling of entire games/series like Punch-Out!!, Wii Fit, Duck Hunt and R.O.B.
- Diddy as DLC just feels super weird. Nothing else to add to this one, it just stood out to me in a sort of visceral "wait what?!" kind of way.
DarthEnderX
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Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Cactuar or Tomberry [Final Fantasy]
Slimes/King Slime [Dragon Quest]
Majima [Yakuza]
Abobo [Double Dragon]
That's exactly what he'd be. But I also think Falcon/Ganondorf-style clones should also be considered Echoes. Hence the "Ganondorf gets a unique moveset, and Black Shadow becomes Falcon's Echo and gets Ganondorf's old moveset" I'm often supporting.
I would agree with you, if it weren't for the fact that so many characters get their only playable representation through Mii costumes. Nobody even cares about the OC aspect of Miis. It's about that Sans costume.
Also, pretty sure the character Mii costumes sell like hotcakes. So I don't expect them to go anywhere.
I mean, it wouldn't get any of MY money. The only Mii costumes I buy are the ones for characters that I wish were in Smash.
I don't care about new outfits for characters that are already in the game enough to pay actual money for it.
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Gengar84
Smash Hero
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I would actually really care about a true character creator where the end result could pass as a normal fighter. Something along the lines of the WWE games or even soul Calibur. I love character creators, I just don’t really like what Miis look like. I might be in the minority on that one. They could sell parts for third party characters like they do with Miis to keep the same revenue. Street Fighter VI does this but prices them way too highly. I think the idea is great at a more reasonable price point like the Mii outfits. The problem is that it would be extremely difficult in a game like Smash with such varied body types to have a traditional create a character.
KingofPhantoms
The Spook Factor
Bandana Dee and Octolings are overdue.
Paper Mario is probably the best potential Mario newcomer besides Toad at this point and has loads of potential.
Meowscarada is still the best Gen 9 pick (although it's still up in the air whether a Gen 9 newcomer is even a possibility at this point).
Why is Diddy Kong DLC, though?
Gengar84
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I feel like it doesn’t make much sense to advertise Gen 9 at the point that the next Smash is released regardless whether Gen 10 is a thing yet. I feel like most people will have finished with Gen 9 long before that point. It still makes sense to support the series in general but I think that would likely eliminate the recency advantage Gen 9 might have had. It might make more sense to go with an older Pokemon that has been pushed throughout multiple generations.
(I’m not suggesting that for any particular reason, please ignore my user name)
(I’m not suggesting that for any particular reason, please ignore my user name)
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don’t forget the new legends game is part of gen 9
Kirbeh
Smash Champion
It'd be tricky, but not totally impossible. With that in mind I don't Smash should go for SC style character creator. They can borrow some elements, but overall still make something different. My suggestion is probably more trouble than it's worth, but I'd actually go for two versions of CAC.
The first would still be the Miis, I'd just expand on their customizability by extending custom options to every move instead of just specials. Same for Mii Outfits by breaking them into more pieces as opposed to just hats and full outfits. So, they'd now be broken down into footwear, leg wear, gloves, hats, face accessories like glasses and masks, etc., etc.
For the second CAC, you basically take the revised options for the Miis and apply it to them as well. These second CAC's would be inspired by the Wireframe Fighters from Melee. You have a male and female base wireframe body whose appearance and individual moves can be customized.
To clarify, they'd be Wireframes by default but could be given regular human appearances through customization. They'd likely also use the same class types as the Miis. They'd operate pretty similarly overall really, just taller and with a different aesthetic.
They could rope the alloy fighters back in too. The Red and Blue ones as costumes for the custom Wireframe fighters. and the Yellow one for Miis. Green, being a blob would have to be reintroduced some other way. AT maybe?
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Gengar84
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Technically I guess but that doesn’t really translate into needing to advertise Scarlet and Violet specifically. Greninja is already a Gen 6 rep so I don’t think we necessarily need a second character there either. Not saying it can’t or shouldn’t happen, just that I don’t really see how it helps them more than adding any other popular Pokemon would.
Guynamednelson
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You could technically say Pikachu already counts as promotion for FRLG, but they still promoted those remakes with the Kanto starters. And the decision to promote FRLG would've been made after it stopped being the latest mainline Pokemon at the time. Besides, when it comes to marketing Pokemon from Gen 6, it isn't strictly focused on Greninja.
And that's true for the gen 2/4/7 reps as well. Yes, I know it's ironic for me to say this when I act like wanting a "better gen 2 rep" is on par with asking for Goku...although to be fair, Smash fans' typical choices for a better rep aren't who the Pokemon Company focuses on.
well there’s a good chance legends itself will have new Pokemon but I take your point
Oracle Link
Smash Master
They atleast call him "captain America"
I do like to include ocs i mean Videospiel-Man for one (he has like the ideal moveset TBH)
But also you can recreate some official characters (like a lot of ut ones) With just normal mii parts!