Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Delzethin]

So that was an unexpected turn of events. Lot of people predicted we'd start seeing one Legends game per generation now, but hardly anyone seriously considered Kalos to be an option for the second one!

Does this have any Smash implications? Well...it depends. If Smash 6/some surprise update for Ultimate/etc. happens within the next couple years (or longer if Gen 10 gets pushed back to 2026--games need to be at least almost finished so the character designs/lore aren't subject to change anymore), our first new 'mon will be from Scarlet and Violet. But if there's room for a second newcomer, then things get complicated. If Legends: Z-A repeats what Legends: Arceus did and introduces new variants of existing starters, could one of them be an option?

And what about less conventional ideas? Kalos is relevant again, and the Kalos starters will almost surely appear in Z-A (maybe with new Megas?). If there's extra dev time available to create more echo fighters, Delphox would work surprisingly well as a Dark Pit-style one for Meowscarada.

 

[SPEN18]

does /j mean joke?

I'm assuming this is sarcastic, let me know if I'm wrong

Well, I thought putting /j was only fair because I don't think they literally hate Flygon lol. It just doesn't get any attention compared to some of its Hoenn brethren, and as much as the comparison to Garchomp is overblown, that too.

 

[NintenRob]

If there's extra dev time available to create more echo fighters, Delphox would work surprisingly well as a Dark Pit-style one for Meowscarada.

What?

 

[Gengar84]

What?

I can kind of see it. They’re both magicians and have somewhat similar frames. I picture Meowscarada to be a lot more quick and agile compared to Delphox where I see Delphox as more a traditional slower mage.

 

[RileyXY1]

I can kind of see it. They’re both magicians and have somewhat similar frames. I picture Meowscarada to be a lot more quick and agile compared to Delphox where I see Delphox as more a traditional slower mage.

One's a stage magician and the other is a witch. They're nothing alike.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

This is "Zeraora can be a Lucario Echo" all over again.

 

[NintenRob]

Delphox and Meowscarada have nothing nothing in common besides the vague notion of magic.

Meowscarada is a magician, a trickster in a phantom thief sort of way. It's also generally depicted as quite nimble and elegant

Delphox is a mage, it uses a magic wand. It's also fairly slow with a big fur dress covering it's lower half, pretty much ruling out any agile kick attacks.


I hope this isn't coming across as mean spirited but I just don't see them working at all, they're not even the same type. Maybe if we were talking about Braixen, I'd have easier time seeing some assets being shared. But Delphox and Meowscarada, I'm sorry but I don't even see an Isabelle type situation working.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't understand how a fire and grass type can be echoes if each other.

Like, body type aside, their elements are completely different.

 

[Gengar84]

Delphox and Meowscarada have nothing nothing in common besides the vague notion of magic.

Meowscarada is a magician, a trickster in a phantom thief sort of way. It's also generally depicted as quite nimble and elegant

Delphox is a mage, it uses a magic wand. It's also fairly slow with a big fur dress covering it's lower half, pretty much ruling out any agile kick attacks.


I hope this isn't coming across as mean spirited but I just don't see them working at all, they're not even the same type. Maybe if we were talking about Braixen, I'd have easier time seeing some assets being shared. But Delphox and Meowscarada, I'm sorry but I don't even see an Isabelle type situation working.

Yeah, I see Meowscarada as more of a Joker style character and Delphox as something closer to Zelda. I don’t really think they’d work great as echoes either, just that I could kind of see where Delzethin got the idea.

 

[Ivander]

So that was an unexpected turn of events. Lot of people predicted we'd start seeing one Legends game per generation now, but hardly anyone seriously considered Kalos to be an option for the second one!

Does this have any Smash implications? Well...it depends. If Smash 6/some surprise update for Ultimate/etc. happens within the next couple years (or longer if Gen 10 gets pushed back to 2026--games need to be at least almost finished so the character designs/lore aren't subject to change anymore), our first new 'mon will be from Scarlet and Violet. But if there's room for a second newcomer, then things get complicated. If Legends: Z-A repeats what Legends: Arceus did and introduces new variants of existing starters, could one of them be an option?

And what about less conventional ideas? Kalos is relevant again, and the Kalos starters will almost surely appear in Z-A (maybe with new Megas?). If there's extra dev time available to create more echo fighters, Delphox would work surprisingly well as a Dark Pit-style one for Meowscarada.

I don't think it'll have major Smash implications, aside from maybe a couple Pokemon variations from it being added to Pokeballs.

In regards to the Pokemon series, depending on what they are doing with Pokemon Legends Z-A, it can range from either being unrelated to anything in Pokemon X and Y to possibly involving AZ's past as a king and his friendship with the Floette with the rare flower If they actually go that latter route, if they stick hard and true to it, it not only has alot of potential of being a great Pokemon game story-wise, but can potentially make the moments with the character in X and Y far more impactful.

Imagine if our character in Legends Z-A is the one who is to give the tiny box.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm assuming this is sarcastic, let me know if I'm wrong

it wasn't. nobody ever taught me internet lingo and i've had to piece it together

 

[SPEN18]

it wasn't. nobody ever taught me internet lingo and i've had to piece it together

Ah, sorry, but yes it means joke

 

[BritishGuy54]

Legends Z-A could mean that Greninja is likely coming back, alongside perhaps an X/Y stage.

But other than that, Scarlet/Violet or Gen 10 content (like a stage) would likely have more priority.

 

[NintenRob]

One thing that might be interesting.

Assuming we don't get two mainline Pokémon games next year (which I should point out, is possible, Arceus was the same year as ScarVi) Pokémon gen 10 is probably going to be 2026

2026 is a strong candidate for being a Smash year. Which means for the first time, we could see a new Smash and Pokémon generation in the same year. I wonder how that would reflect content?

 

[RileyXY1]

One thing that might be interesting.

Assuming we don't get two mainline Pokémon games next year (which I should point out, is possible, Arceus was the same year as ScarVi) Pokémon gen 10 is probably going to be 2026

2026 is a strong candidate for being a Smash year. Which means for the first time, we could see a new Smash and Pokémon generation in the same year. I wonder how that would reflect content?

I think that Gen 10 is also coming in 2025, and 2025 will end up just like 2022 where we have both a Legends game and a new gen in the same year.

 

[cashregister9]

I am just glad that the Prism Tower stage has a much higher chance of returning in the next smash

 

[RileyXY1]

They have added a character to promote a Pokémon remake before, that being the Pokémon Trainer. They served as a promotion for FRLG, as the trainers' designs came from that game and their Pokémon of choice are the Kanto starters.

 

[BritishGuy54]

One thing that might be interesting.

Assuming we don't get two mainline Pokémon games next year (which I should point out, is possible, Arceus was the same year as ScarVi) Pokémon gen 10 is probably going to be 2026

2026 is a strong candidate for being a Smash year. Which means for the first time, we could see a new Smash and Pokémon generation in the same year. I wonder how that would reflect content?

2026 is certainly a strong candidate year for a new Smash. If we assume the DLC cycle is like Ultimate’s, we could assume that it lasts until 2029 (Smash’s 30th anniversary) at the latest.

Looking from precedent, Incineroar got into Ultimate around 2 years after he debuted in Sun/Moon. But was likely planned a year or so prior in 2015. This is why characters such as Min Min and Pyra/Mythra were pushed to DLC, as they were finalised too late.

So if Smash and Gen 10 debuted in the same year, I’d say a new Pokémon comes as DLC. If Gen 10 debuts in late 2025, and Smash comes a year later, I’d say it would be a base game pick.

I think it might be worth thinking about Nintendo’s larger schedule beyond Pokémon and Smash. A 3D Mario may launch with a new system. 2025-2026 is Mario’s 40th anniversary. Also Mario Kart and Mario Party. Lots of Mario. And then there’s Metroid Prime 4. Maybe some extra ports the Switch skipped on.

 

[PinkFlare]

In the middle of watching Del's vid and I wound up pausing on the "only 6 (unique) newcomers in Ultimate was disappointing" part. This was outside the norm for Smash due to EiH, but even that aside, 6 newcomers is honestly a pretty reasonable newcomer count for any other fighting game out there. Sakurai and co have truly spoiled this fanbase.

Gonna agree with this. I watched the video too and this point rubbed me the wrong way, although in that regard I disagree with most of the video.
There's nothing wrong with only having the number of newcomers Ultimate had for its base game, especially given the character choices in that regard specifically aimed for highly requested newcomers. It very much felt like a quality over quantity moment that a lot of Smash fans seem to have lost sight of, and in fact I rather liked the slower intake of Newcomers because it gave each addition more of a spotlight in regards to the community. The follow-up line about Waluigi and Bandana Dee feels tone deaf to me as well, it very much reads to me as "We didn't get X requested character", a mindset that the video later criticizes; It also just doesn't make sense because there is no gaurantee that even with more newcomers in the base game it would've been either of these characters (and given Piranha Plant was intended to be in Base game it's safe to say neither Waluigi or BWD were even next in line for Sakurai's consideration).
It also feels contradictory in of itself; Its said that Ultimate felt lacking in Single Player content (which I agree with) because of the amount of characters, but then there is the complaint that we didn't get enough characters? I get that both can be an issue but when it is blatantly clear that the option is one or the other then it feels far less valid to say the game was lacking in modes and yet also needed more newcomers which would take away from the former option.

All of which is moot because it was expected for DLC to pick up the slack in new characters, which it did.
And, yes, I agree with you in that Smash has likely spoiled its fans too much. 6 newcomers is fairly average for any other modern fighting game on the market. Smash has always been special in that regard since past games include a lot of newcomers, but that also comes at the cost of making fans unaware of the entire rest of the genre it resides in- and Smash, as far as I'm aware, is the only fighting game in the past decade to have brought back every Veteran for a single entry.

(Also I recognize this is a day late reply sorryyyy)

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

given Piranha Plant was intended to be in Base game

Gonna jump on this and say there actually isn't legitimate evidence for this.

We can reasonably deduce that the decision for Plant came well before the Fighters Pass, but it's much more likely Plant always was meant to be a pre-order bonus and was being worked on after the base roster was complete.

If Plant was meant to be available on release but had to be "held back" because it couldn't be finished in time, Plant would just have been a free update for everyone, not free for a limited time with a code and then paid DLC. That goes against Sakurai's design philosophy in not charging for unfinished content, which he criticises other game developers for doing and calls a "scam".

Sakurai on DLC: “It’s All About Making Players Happy”

Here’s a full translation of Based Sakurai’s latest article in this month’s Famitsu. He talks about DLC in Sm4sh, offering a little insight into how it came to be and what he and …

sourcegaming.info

 

[7NATOR]

So there something I've been wondering

How do you feel about More Casual elements being introduced to Smash Bros?

I think in comparison to something like Mario Kart, which is really easy for Casual players to play (and part of why Mario Kart sells so much more than Smash), Smash has some complicated elements in it that some of us might take for granted

For example, just the Concept of Recovery is something I've literally seen people struggle with. In the past, The King of Fighters Stadium was the best stage to play on because you didn't have to worry about Recovery

So how would you feel about more Casual elements being added to Smash, stuff like

-Auto Controls, Maybe something like Characters will automatically Move for you. in Vs Matches, towards other players, and in Single Player modes, toward the Destination and/or Enemies. They could also do other actions like Shield, Attack, Grab, and recover for you also. However You can press buttons to take over

-More Stages where Recovery is not Necessary, Something like King of Fighters Stadium, Bridge of Eldin (when the bridge isn't broken) and Mario Galaxy and Figure-8 Circuit. perhaps even all Stages could have Variations where the need to recover isn't needed, like how there's Omega and Battlefield variations of every stage

-More Modes that are based around teaming with other Players. I know some of the most fun that I've had with my Cousin playing Smash was playing Subspace in Brawl, and playing online in Smash 4 since when we go against each other, I usually whoop him. So Something like a Big Story mode, or a Boss Rush, or some type of party mode where you can team up maybe up to 8 players, going against Bosses and enemies

-SplitScreen. Especially good for big Areas and Stages, there could be Split screen so it would allow the Camera to zoom in Close on the characters, while at the same time being able to track everyone

-Autorevive. After a Certain amount of time passes, even if all your Stocks are gone, you can be Revived if the match isn't over


Of course all these options would be optional, but I think it could be good for making Smash Easier to control and understand for Causals

 

[PinkFlare]

Gonna jump on this and say there actually isn't legitimate evidence for this.

We can reasonably deduce that the decision for Plant came well before the Fighters Pass, but it's much more likely Plant always was meant to be a pre-order bonus and was being worked on after the base roster was complete.

If Plant was meant to be available on release but had to be "held back" because it couldn't be finished in time, Plant would just have been a free update for everyone, not free for a limited time with a code and then paid DLC. That goes against Sakurai's design philosophy in not charging for unfinished content, which he criticises other game developers for doing and calls a "scam".

Sakurai on DLC: “It’s All About Making Players Happy”

Here’s a full translation of Based Sakurai’s latest article in this month’s Famitsu. He talks about DLC in Sm4sh, offering a little insight into how it came to be and what he and …

sourcegaming.info

All fair and agreeable

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The thing with Zero Suit Samus is that she isn't holding Samus back. Samus already was designed that way well before her arrival. They're split up now entirely, so it's not really going to matter that ZSS is in the game either. Samus isn't getting updates because her design is a specific playstyle established since Smash 64. She needs some, but not ones that mess heavily with her playstyle. Just better things in general. More options. The problem more stems from more characters and that she can't keep up that well. She was never very high even in the first game, taking 8th place out of 12th. She's at least in the B+ Tier in Melee, her best game. But as the characters got added, she got pushed to the wayside. Blaming ZSS isn't really fair here. You could maybe say that during Brawl(though that partially stems from usage), but 4 and Ultimate? Where they're completely separated and have zip to do with each other overall? Yeah, no.

It sucks she's doing so badly, agreed. Cutting ZSS won't help her one bit. What will help her is what I said above, actually taking the time to improve her overall. She really needs updates anyway. Also, for people who play the Metroid series, she's not actually that fast of a character in her suit. She is somewhat sluggish and uses a slower gameplay. If anything, she's actually pretty accurate. Still, she needs better general stuff.

This(the characters being held by another one "hostage", if you will) was only true for Zelda/Sheik(since they were designed together) and Pokemon Trainer(and Ultimate dropped the issue, since Charizard was able to go solo before. They're still balanced around each other, but nowhere near as badly as Brawl). To the point he's in the A- Tier of Ultimate, compared to the E Tier he was in during Brawl. So yes, they significantly changed him, while having the Pokemon together. Notably, Charizard was in the E tier as well in 4. It benefited from the combo.

 

[Noipoi]

So uhhh...

Spirit event?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

So uhhh...

Spirit event?

It's a tourney week.

If I'm not mistaken the tourney had been pre-announced to be amiibo based in a post after Sora's amiibo release.

Got the tweet.

https://twitter.com/SmashBrosJP/status/1758295629913346327?s=20

 

[toonito]

So that was an unexpected turn of events. Lot of people predicted we'd start seeing one Legends game per generation now, but hardly anyone seriously considered Kalos to be an option for the second one!

Does this have any Smash implications? Well...it depends. If Smash 6/some surprise update for Ultimate/etc. happens within the next couple years (or longer if Gen 10 gets pushed back to 2026--games need to be at least almost finished so the character designs/lore aren't subject to change anymore), our first new 'mon will be from Scarlet and Violet. But if there's room for a second newcomer, then things get complicated. If Legends: Z-A repeats what Legends: Arceus did and introduces new variants of existing starters, could one of them be an option?

And what about less conventional ideas? Kalos is relevant again, and the Kalos starters will almost surely appear in Z-A (maybe with new Megas?). If there's extra dev time available to create more echo fighters, Delphox would work surprisingly well as a Dark Pit-style one for Meowscarada.

interesting

i feel that the more time passes the more likely Gen 10 gets the Smash pokemon slot. Smash has only been released within the same year as a new Nintendo console once (Melee) so it tends to come out a couple of years after a new console. if the timelines are correct (Switch 2 allegedly releasing March 2025 and Gen 10 coming out 2025/2026) that gives Smash 6 possible release in 2027 which would likely mean Gen 10 is the newest generation while Smash 6 is developing.

The other thing is that IIRC Smash hasnt had a new pokemon from a previous generation debut in Smash since Brawl with Pokemon Trainer. We know the newest generation at the time of release gets a slot so i'm not sure if Sakurai will also go backwards for an older Pokemon whether its from Kalos, Unova, or Johto. Sword & Shield released after Ultimate and didnt get a character so its possible that the schedule is where the newest Pokemon gen has to come out before Smash.

We're a couple of years out from Gen 10 as well as Smash 6 so we'll see what happens. I'm no expert on these things im just speculating.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Gonna agree with this. I watched the video too and this point rubbed me the wrong way, although in that regard I disagree with most of the video.
There's nothing wrong with only having the number of newcomers Ultimate had for its base game, especially given the character choices in that regard specifically aimed for highly requested newcomers. It very much felt like a quality over quantity moment that a lot of Smash fans seem to have lost sight of, and in fact I rather liked the slower intake of Newcomers because it gave each addition more of a spotlight in regards to the community. The follow-up line about Waluigi and Bandana Dee feels tone deaf to me as well, it very much reads to me as "We didn't get X requested character", a mindset that the video later criticizes; It also just doesn't make sense because there is no gaurantee that even with more newcomers in the base game it would've been either of these characters (and given Piranha Plant was intended to be in Base game it's safe to say neither Waluigi or BWD were even next in line for Sakurai's consideration).
It also feels contradictory in of itself; Its said that Ultimate felt lacking in Single Player content (which I agree with) because of the amount of characters, but then there is the complaint that we didn't get enough characters? I get that both can be an issue but when it is blatantly clear that the option is one or the other then it feels far less valid to say the game was lacking in modes and yet also needed more newcomers which would take away from the former option.

All of which is moot because it was expected for DLC to pick up the slack in new characters, which it did.
And, yes, I agree with you in that Smash has likely spoiled its fans too much. 6 newcomers is fairly average for any other modern fighting game on the market. Smash has always been special in that regard since past games include a lot of newcomers, but that also comes at the cost of making fans unaware of the entire rest of the genre it resides in- and Smash, as far as I'm aware, is the only fighting game in the past decade to have brought back every Veteran for a single entry.

(Also I recognize this is a day late reply sorryyyy)

I think Del's biggest issue was more so that he focused so hard on saying "well speculation got out of hand" which isn't a criticism of the game, it's a criticism of the community

...I also think he's overexaggerating a bit. Those who yell loudest and all that.

 

[superprincess]

I don't think we're getting two or more newcomers from one franchise in base game. It just isn't necessary imo. Most series already have their staples and their fan favorites, so double dipping seems really pointless right now. Last time a series double dipped in base game was Mario in Smash 4 and even that almost didn't happen (Junior was low priority and almost cut according to Sakurai). I'm obviously not counting echoes in this. So no Lucina/Robin, Palutena/Dark Pit and Ridley/Dark Samus don't count.

Pokémon gets a fighter every time, and said fighter is always a recency pick. I'm pretty sure Smash and Pokémon Gen 10 are both in the works right now, with Gen 10 probably coming out next year, while Smash will have to wait till 2026 at the earliest. So the next Mon in Smash is looking to be a Greninja situation. And with the competition between newcomers being rather tough, I don't see a Pokemon from Legends ZA getting in alongside the inevitable Gen 10 one. The mainline game will obviously out prioritize a spinoff.

 

[NintenRob]

I just really don't want a starter. We have enough of them already. I'd be more interested in a note worthy Legendary, or perhaps the Champions Ace Pokémon.

 

[Shinuto]

I just really don't want a starter. We have enough of them already. I'd be more interested in a note worthy Legendary, or perhaps the Champions Ace Pokémon.

I want a Tinkaton, an actually popular Pokemon that didnt get an easy free pass and head start due to being a Starter.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I don't think we're getting two or more newcomers from one franchise in base game. It just isn't necessary imo. Most series already have their staples and their fan favorites, so double dipping seems really pointless right now. Last time a series double dipped in base game was Mario in Smash 4 and even that almost didn't happen (Junior was low priority and almost cut according to Sakurai). I'm obviously not counting echoes in this. So no Lucina/Robin, Palutena/Dark Pit and Ridley/Dark Samus don't count.

Ive been saying something to this effect yeah, it feels like most of the characters "Important" to Nintendo's history are already in.

I just really don't want a starter. We have enough of them already. I'd be more interested in a note worthy Legendary, or perhaps the Champions Ace Pokémon.

Weird pick but i want to see Gardevoir, extremely popular Pokemon from an underrepresented era of the franchise? Works for me.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

perhaps the Champions Ace Pokémon.

Except the past few Champions have had various Starters as their ace outside Geeta having.....Glimmora. And even then there's Nemona in the same game with a Starter.

So there's a non-zero chance of the ace being a Starter again.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

do y'all think Cacomallow will be in the next smash

they never recreated it so it could be real

 

[NintenRob]

Except the past few Champions have had various Starters as their ace outside Geeta having.....Glimmora. And even then there's Nemona in the same game with a Starter.

So there's a non-zero chance of the ace being a Starter again.

...... yeah.... I was just reminded that Leon had Charizard as his ace. For some reason. (I mean obviously there was a reason, but I don't like it)

And then yeah, the Alola guys just had starters you didn't pick. And I guess you could count Blue/Trace (Though Pidgeot seems to double as their ace)


Though I was picturing something more in line with Garchomp or Metagross, a pseudo Legend in general would actually be a solid choice for Pokémon.

 

[Noipoi]

do y'all think Cacomallow will be in the next smash

they never recreated it so it could be real

View attachment 385610

Well Geno’s got more of a shot than ever, and there’s always the possibility that Doomguy could maybe make it in, so uh…

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

...... yeah.... I was just reminded that Leon had Charizard as his ace. For some reason. (I mean obviously there was a reason, but I don't like it)

And then yeah, the Alola guys just had starters you didn't pick. And I guess you could count Blue/Trace (Though Pidgeot seems to double as their ace)


Though I was picturing something more in line with Garchomp or Metagross, a pseudo Legend in general would actually be a solid choice for Pokémon.

Would it really? Or wouldn't they just fall under the same "problem" the Starters have in that they're too "safe" because every Generation has their token Dragon* pseudo just like every Generation has their own Starter trio?

*Barring Tyranitar and Metagross, but Gen 3 still has Salamence as another psuedo

 

[NintenRob]

Would it really? Or wouldn't they just fall under the same "problem" the Starters have in that they're too "safe" because every Generation has their token Dragon* pseudo just like every Generation has their own Starter trio?

*Barring Tyranitar and Metagross, but Gen 3 still has Salamence as another psuedo

If we only got Pseudo Legend Pokémon for next few Smash games, I'd certainly have a problem with it. But one for a change? Even if it's another dragon type, (which I do wish Pokémon would change it up there), we don't really have a Dragon Type in Smash. Closest is Charizard, who yes, does look like a very typical Dragon. But most Pseudos take it a step further. Land sharks, Godzilla, huggable snails, living missiles, jet planes. They're among the coolest and most popular Pokémon.

 

[SPEN18]

I'm gonna disagree and say that there are some franchises where, at least at this current point, I'd be willing to double-dip on newcomers in one game.

Mario, as I like both Toad and Waluigi and both would seem justified.
Zelda, as there are a lot of options that have been passed over previously and it would be very satisfying to get someone from BotW/TotK and still have space for a legacy character.
Pokemon, which has no shortage of evergreens from across the series that I'd like to see get a shot.
Animal Crossing, a series whose representation is lagging due to not being added until Smash 4; Tom Nook is a clear top choice, but I'd love to see someone beyond him considered in addition, for example KK Slider.
Potentially Splatoon, if Octoling is borrowing resources from Inkling, since it definitely has more to offer than just another clone.
Really, I'd even accept two Kirby newcomers if it means we can get someone besides Dee.

 

[PinkFlare]

The only series I realistically see getting double dipped is Zelda, due to it not having a newcomer since Brawl and having a boatload of potential candidates with equal popularity. A lot of the other major series are already bulked up on characters and don't have more than 1 unanimous newcomer request

 

[Sucumbio]

My wife is psyched for Z I'm like ? Then she blurted out some pokemon and did a fade and sang all the way down the hallway. This was a good reveal apparently so YAY for Pokemon on Pokemon Day and Polar Bear Day allegedly.