Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Seriously, these "outdated" things are usually more iconic than the more "current" things since they at least get time to make recurrent appearances.

Nothing will ever be as outdated as FLUDD.

 

[Quillion]

would you be in favour of a healthy balance between the two?

Depends on what kind of "balance" that is.

IMO, doing things like replacing throwaway normal animations here and there like DK and Wario's dash attacks to something more canon works. And it needs to be here and there, because this demand for Kirby needing to be cluttered and disjointed like Mega Man won't work.

Nothing will ever be as outdated as FLUDD.

Agreed, but it sucked in the first place in Brawl, not over time.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Nothing will ever be as outdated as FLUDD.

Okay but consider this

FLUDD is one of the most fun moves to use

 

[Sucumbio]

At least Squirtle's Water Gun has great sound effects and animation. FLUDD is just dull.

 

[Perkilator]

Yeah, FLUDD's honestly just redundant with Squirtle's Water Gun. I would've changed Mario's Side B to Cap Throw (similar to Link's Boomerang) and his Down B to the Galaxy Spin (a spiritual successor to the Cape as a reflector special).

 

[Gorgonzales]

I'd make Side B his dive tackle from the 3D Mario games and Up-B the Galaxy Spin, with down B being a ground pound. Only fitting for a platforming mascot to have good mobility tools

 

[Dan Quixote]

At least Squirtle's Water Gun has great sound effects and animation. FLUDD is just dull.

Weird water sound effects is just canon to Super Mario Sunshine.

Besides, Water Gun is too underpowered compared to FLUDD. Not just that, FLUDD + Cape makes for some of the funniest edgeguards of all time.

 

[smashkirby]

i am assuming the namco thing is for the next smash so i have to kick myself into gear and make videos and artwork detailing why Olimar deserves to have his actual personality and emotions in Smash

I mean...for one thing, they could give him his actual voice.

Olimar being completely mute in Smash is such a weird disservice.

At least in those cases it's just a case of being outdated, since those voices were more in line with earlier depictions of the characters (hell, outside of Smash, DK made realistic gorilla noises as late as Mario Party 4).

With Olimar, and Isabelle by extension, there's really like...no reason for it. Pikmin 2 had already established Olimar's voice by the time he was added to Brawl. And any argument about it being due to Olimar and Isabelle's voices being heavily synthesized gets debunked pretty quickly when you realize the Inklings DID get their voices.

It's just weird all around.

There's obvious changes to be made, like giving him his voice and making him able to properly emote (his eyes tilt downward when frustrated or angry, upward when disappointed or worried, etc). There's also a lot more subtle things you could do to his animations to make him less of a bumbling astronaut and more... Olimar. For example, his current idle animations would be perfect to have on Louie since they're better fitting for him, but on Olimar they don't really convey much of anything. I'd make his idle animations convey more of his personality, like him looking ahead for potential dangers for one, and him doing some stretches for the other. A lot of animations could be made more distinct from one another like f-smash from side-b from grab, which are all currently very similar; at this point, changing them would be a QoL feature.

Give him this victory animation too, instead of the absolute handful of nothing his current victory animations are.

In my opinion they should have a complete overhaul of his moveset (right now it incentivizes the killing of Pikmin / using them as meat shields instead of their preservation which is just.... so backwards to what Pikmin is as a concept), but if we had to build off Ultimate then these changes are the absolute least I would want.

I have a whole moveset rework for him drafted, I just need to make art for it. Easier said than done, but it'll be more than worth it in the end becuase I'll know that at the very least I did my part.

Honestly yeah, the biggest thing (besides the lack of voice) that I'd like to see change about Olimar is the fact that the Pikmin are, by nature, disposable. And honestly, I think you could do this with a single change.

Make it so flowering is no longer just an aesthetic thing.

When you use Pikmin Order when you have at least one flowered Pikmin, they get the Ultra Spicy Spray applied to them, giving them significantly more speed and attack power, and much better frame data. When Olimar does his pummel and throws while all three Pikmin are sprayed, they swarm the foe for significantly more damage than they normally do.

It's a simple change that immediately incentivizes keeping your Pikmin alive.

I totally understand all of these QoL changes for Olimar and Isabelle, as they desperately need them, but... could we please show Alph some love?

Olimar's got it bad, no question, but Alph feels a bit more hurt by this, given his current role of being accessible as a playable character via Olimar's alternate costumes. Like, it's to the point that most folks generally don't even know that he's been playable in Smash Bros. since Smash 4.

Poor little guy is a secret character without actually being a secret character, in some ways.

 

[UserKev]

Okay but consider this

FLUDD is one of the most fun moves to use

Agree to disagree. FLUDD is just.. tediously pointless. Now if he could fire hydro pump shoots like Blastoise, THEN the rest of us would be happier.

 

[Quillion]

Weird water sound effects is just canon to Super Mario Sunshine.

Besides, Water Gun is too underpowered compared to FLUDD. Not just that, FLUDD + Cape makes for some of the funniest edgeguards of all time.

Meh, the "magnet hands" ledgegrabbing makes it not work a lot of the time.

Yeah, FLUDD's honestly just redundant with Squirtle's Water Gun. I would've changed Mario's Side B to Cap Throw (similar to Link's Boomerang) and his Down B to the Galaxy Spin (a spiritual successor to the Cape as a reflector special).

As an alternative Side-B can become the Star Spin while Down-B can be the Ground Pound that everyone seems to want. He'd be back to being a Smash-adapted shoto like he should be.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I don’t know how they didn’t give FLUDD the option to hover if you use it in the air. It seems so obvious that it’s baffling its omitted.

 

[Ivander]

I don’t know how they didn’t give FLUDD the option to hover if you use it in the air. It seems so obvious that it’s baffling its omitted.

Probably because it's be dangerously strong against other players trying to recover, especially if their main recovery is a vertical recovery. Like not only does it give Mario more recovery of his own, but it'd basically push down other players trying to recover while it'd not only allow Mario to get back to the stage with no issue, but he'd be a far distance away where most of the options players would have against him wouldn't be able to hit him.
I get wanting for Fludd's other nozzles to be used, but if the Hover Nozzle remained intact from Sunshine, with water shooting down as Mario hovers, it sounds very easy to be so very powerful with incredibly few counters.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

I Could See the Following Changes made for the Default Characters:

1. Samus' Moveset & Overall aesthetic would take Influence from how she looks AND how she plays in Metroid Dread[Focusing on the Speed that she had in Later Metroid games like Fusion & Dread]; including her New Suit Design from Metroid Dread.

2. Ganondorf having his TOTK Design

3. Cutting some of the less Relevant Characters from the Roster[Characters from Games that HAVEN'T Gotten new games in Years; i.e. Captain Falcon from F-Zero]


For NEW Characters I'd Want to see in Smash 6; here's what I'd Want:

1. Raven Beak/Ashkar Behek from Metroid Dread[Being the Greater-scope Villain of the entire Metroid Franchise] [I could see HIM Replacing Dark Samus]

2. Ring Fit Trainee[Basically the NEW Wii Fit Trainer complete with Female & Male Alternate Designs in Color]

3. Geno[Especially with SMRPG getting a Remake]

4. Either one of the Gen 8, Gen 9, or one of the GEN 10 Starter Pokemon Final Evolutions

5. Bandana Waddle Dee[Seriously; He's long overdue; he's a Spear user; We don't have any Dedicated Smash Fighters that Primarily focus on using a Spear as THE Primary weapon; No Multi-Directional "Weapon used depends on direction pressed on D-Pad" BS like Byleth; and Can Sky Jump like he does in Kirby Games]

6. No Echo Fighters[we don't need to pad out the Roster]

7. Zelda having her TOTK design

8. Sheik getting Axed because of her Lack of Relevance since Hyrule Warriors DX

9. Pauline in Smash[Fighting with Her Purse, Her Umbrella; basically a Reference to her Past tied into Donkey Kong; heck; One of her Alternate Color schemes COULD even Reference her having once been Blond in the DK Games]

10. Add Ninten from Earthbound Beginnings

Basically; Focusing on overall Quality of the Fighters over the Quantity of Fighters Unlike in Ultimate and everyone is here

 

[Kirbeh]

In regards to FLUDD, I think an entire moveset based around it could work.

Rocket Nozzle Up B. Turbo Nozzle could act like Mario's version of Green Missile (not exact, but somewhat similar in function.) Spray Nozzle becomes neutral B.

Hover can either be Down B but modified to be used as a horizontal recovery (no height gained from it), or it can be this Mario's gimmick. Giving the option of gaining lots of height by holding the jump button, but the slow ascent otherwise leaving him wide open. The water for this wouldn't actually push opponents like with Spray.

I don't know how many people would actually support a third Mario though. Well, a third Mario that isn't Paper Mario at least.

As for regular Mario Mario, I'm still in favor of reverting Down B from FLUDD back to Mario Tornado.

Then Ground Pound can be D-air and they can take another page from traditional fighters by adding a down forward input as an extra aerial. This diagonal aerial would be the Dive from his 3D outings.

And while it's more recent and unlikely to appear again I'm very in favor of Cappy as Side B. It will eventually become dated as far as actual Mario games go, but the additional movement options it can give Mario would serve to both give more options for player expression and emphasize a platformer/movement focused moveset.

I like Cape, but if Doc sticks around, adding a few more differences between the two wouldn't hurt.

 

[DarthEnderX]

FLUDD needs to be replaced with Cappy.

That Cap Jump in Smash would be sick as ****!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I was so happy in Smash 4 when they gave the option to have FLUDD damage enemies via custom moves.

Its one of many reasons I miss them, because it actually got me much more interested in fighters I wasn't terribly big on.

 

[HyperSomari64]

FLUDD needs to be replaced with Cappy.

That Cap Jump in Smash would be sick as ****!

I'm always of the idea of having the Capture gimmick, and everytime You move through the other character, it inflicts damage to the possessed body. Walking, Running, Jumping and even making a taunt will hurt for no reason. But hey, at least all characters have Mario's stache, because having all characters with blue eyes would be a coding nightmare.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I totally understand all of these QoL changes for Olimar and Isabelle, as they desperately need them, but... could we please show Alph some love?

Olimar's got it bad, no question, but Alph feels a bit more hurt by this, given his current role of being accessible as a playable character via Olimar's alternate costumes. Like, it's to the point that most folks generally don't even know that he's been playable in Smash Bros. since Smash 4.

Poor little guy is a secret character without actually being a secret character, in some ways.

If cutting Alph as a skin means we get an Olimar that's more true to his character and his character alone, I would do it in a heartbeat. Not even kidding. This also goes for all of those geniuses out there who advocate for Olimar to be a conglomerate Pikmin rep and have every captain as an alt like Bowser Jr... just, no. Ew. Don't even entertain that idea. If I didn't like that idea on Bowser Jr. (spoiler alert: I still don't), I would HATE it for Olimar.

Alph can be an echo fighter if you really want but I do NOT want that man anywhere near Olimar in terms of them sharing a character slot. At this point, just give me an actually good Olimar, I don't care if he's bottom tier as long as he actually is representative of his own character.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm always of the idea of having the Capture gimmick, and everytime You move through the other character, it inflicts damage to the possessed body. Walking, Running, Jumping and even making a taunt will hurt for no reason. But hey, at least all characters have Mario's stache, because having all characters with blue eyes would be a coding nightmare.

The schmovement from Cap Jump would be great but trying to translate the Capture gimmick to Smash Bros. sounds awful no offense.

 

[HyperSomari64]

but trying to translate the Capture gimmick to Smash Bros. sounds awful no offense.

I'ts awful...
and i love it.

 

[Gorgonzales]

The schmovement from Cap Jump would be great but trying to translate the Capture gimmick to Smash Bros. sounds awful no offense.

People who want to redesign his moveset always seem to forget that Mario is supposed to be an all-rounder character that elegantly conveys Smash's gameplay in its purest form. Nah, who cares about that BORING stuff when you can shove in the shiny new gimmick from his newest adventure! ....that'll probably become obsolete by his next adventure!

sniff

 

[Kirbeh]

I'ts awful...
and i love it.

I mean, technically, there is a balanced way to do it in the form of a command grab where the possession is just for visual flair.

Throw Cappy, if it hits, Mario hops in their body and you get brief moment to choose which direction to launch them in. After making your selection he immediately hops back out and kicks them away in whatever direction you chose.

So technically doable, but I don't know if people would take too well to Mario with a command grab.

 

[Louie G.]

I feel like Cappy will never be outdated because unlike FLUDD, Mario's cap is a permanent part of his design. Mario throwing his hat forward feels like a natural extension of his character despite how strange it is with the full context of Odyssey.

One of Smash’s core philosophies is using prominent elements of a character's design to inform their moveset so honestly I think Cappy suits both what makes sense for Mario and what feels fitting for Smash very well. Only issue is that would probably replace Cape, not FLUDD.

 

[Quillion]

I feel like Cappy will never be outdated because unlike FLUDD, Mario's cap is a permanent part of his design. Mario throwing his hat forward feels like a natural extension of his character despite how strange it is with the full context of Odyssey.

One of Smash’s core philosophies is using elements of a character’s design as inspiration for a moveset so honestly I think Cappy suits both what makes sense for Mario and what feels fitting for Smash very well.

That's a solid argument, but Cappy the character and the ability he provides is still outdated since it's unlikely the gimmicks will be revisited unless the next full 3D game is an Odyssey sequel.

Also, I think by that logic, the Star Spin is even less oudated because spinning is a big part of Mario's canon moveset anyway, but the singular Spin has outlasted Galaxy into the NSMB games (in a weaker, non-damaging form) and brought back almost in full in Wonder as a badge (still without damage, but still).

Though perhaps if the Star Spin has reflection properties worked into it, there would be room to get rid of the Cape and replace it, granted.

 

[Louie G.]

Also, I think by that logic, the Star Spin is even less oudated because spinning is a big part of Mario's canon moveset anyway, but the singular Spin has outlasted Galaxy into the NSMB games (in a weaker, non-damaging form) and brought back almost in full in Wonder as a badge (still without damage, but still).

Playing through Mario Wonder I could never bring myself to remove the Boosting Spin Jump badge, I love what that adds to Mario's kit. So I'm honestly in full agreement with you, and personally if I was in charge of the next game I'd go ahead and just make the cap throw his side special and reinstate Mario Tornado to operate more like the spin does in Galaxy and Wonder. Cape is cool and all but I could live without it personally.

The main thing Mario is missing right now is his ground pound, which I assume was just left off his kit because so many other characters have one... but it's such a staple part of his abilities these days that I would vouch for that to be incorporated too. Maybe as a fast falling Dair now that he's got a spin back as a special.

 

[Quillion]

Speaking of Mario, I have an idea for his own "gimmick", but a purely cosmetic one: special jump animations.

I feel like a running jump should have him do his Long Jump animation, while a RAR jump has him do a side-flip.

Then again, it'd be a cool addition to all characters instead.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I kept seeing posts about that "Namco contracting Nintendo for an action game" thing last year and was assuming it was a Kid Icarus Uprising remake, is this unrelated?

Bandai Namco Appears To Be Remastering A '3D Action Game' For Nintendo

What could it be?

www.nintendolife.com

Given the many hints Sakurai has laid out, i would surprise if that's not the case

People who want to redesign his moveset always seem to forget that Mario is supposed to be an all-rounder character that elegantly conveys Smash's gameplay in its purest form. Nah, who cares about that BORING stuff when you can shove in the shiny new gimmick from his newest adventure! ....that'll probably become obsolete by his next adventure!

sniff

But muh references....How can i play if don't go "I know what that is" per second. OUTDATED!

 

[Stratos]

I just thought of something although on the other hand it might not be true but what I thought is this, that every game in the Super Smash Bros. series because it doesn't mention the events of the previous game in the series, that is to put it simply it doesn't it has a solid story, I mean every game in the Super Smash Bros. series is an alternate timeline. What I want to write is that because of this there will be no remake of the Super Smash Bros. series, at least that's what I believe.

 

[Laniv]

Clearly, the best option is to add Pauline and give her an Odyssey-themed moveset!

but also that should actually happen

 

[Kirbeh]

I just thought of something although on the other hand it might not be true but what I thought is this, that every game in the Super Smash Bros. series because it doesn't mention the events of the previous game in the series, that is to put it simply it doesn't it has a solid story, I mean every game in the Super Smash Bros. series is an alternate timeline. What I want to write is that because of this there will be no remake of the Super Smash Bros. series, at least that's what I believe.

I mean, Brawl and Ultimate are the only games that even attempt to have a story, and even calling WoL a story is being generous.

So yes, you'd be correct in there being no solid story because having a proper narrative and continuity aren't really a focus for the series.

As for a remake, I don't think whether or not a game has a story has any bearing on whether it should or is capable of having a remake.

 

[smashkirby]

If cutting Alph as a skin means we get an Olimar that's more true to his character and his character alone, I would do it in a heartbeat. Not even kidding. This also goes for all of those geniuses out there who advocate for Olimar to be a conglomerate Pikmin rep and have every captain as an alt like Bowser Jr... just, no. Ew. Don't even entertain that idea. If I didn't like that idea on Bowser Jr. (spoiler alert: I still don't), I would HATE it for Olimar.

Alph can be an echo fighter if you really want but I do NOT want that man anywhere near Olimar in terms of them sharing a character slot. At this point, just give me an actually good Olimar, I don't care if he's bottom tier as long as he actually is representative of his own character.

Oh, that's (partially) what I'm talking about. I'd much rather Alph be his own fighter than be relegated to an alt. skin character through Olimar. Ngl, there's something almost INSULTING about Alph being stuck in his current Smash Bros. role, given how they're two completely different people in Pikmin canon (obviously).

It feels like even MORE of an insult to suggest all captain characters should share a slot with Olimar. As with Alph, it feels like such an insult to Pikmin as a whole. Like, I know the Pikmin themselves are 'more marketable' or whatever, but the captains at least have totally different personalities from each other.

As someone who LOVES the Koopalings (probably even more than Bowser Jr., if I'm being totally honest), getting them in Smash the way they did is just... I'll say this, if there was ANY WAY to give them a feasible reason to split them apart from Jr. AND each other AND still keep them in Smash's roster?

I'd take that in a heartbeat myself, but as things currently stand... well, I've made my peace with their current role better than I have Alph's situation.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I remember honestly being shocked that they didn't at least make Alph an Echo in Ultimate, considering Rock Pikmin were still unused and you could easily give them an effect like dealing more damage to shields since the shield is basically a big glass bubble.

With the Pikmin topic at hand though, I do kinda wonder if Pikmin 4 doing as well as it has gives us the possibility of the Rescue Corps recruit being playable, potentially making them sorta like Isabelle in that they'd have some similar moves to Olimar but could also do unique things like using Rock/Ice/Glow Pikmin and Oatchi somewhere in their kit somehow.

 

[AlRex]

I feel like Cappy and FLUDD are both too specific. I had ideas for a more general Mario rework a bit back, your mileage may vary. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BjdVvkTZdzVRLZ-UpMV2Fn5xM00IbHI7RJd-05yTuCw/edit

That said, although more Poltergust for Luigi could be neat, E. Gadd using both FLUDD and Poltergust more extensively could be interesting, as well.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The fact of the matter is, the Pikmin Captains aren't actually unique. They have the same skills. It's not an insult, it's the only way to really represent them well without using extra Pikmin(which we didn't even have a reasonable amount till Pikmin 4 to really give them unique moveset differences). With Pikmin 4 out, that changes. Now it's easy to do so~

Ultimate's timing just didn't work out. The next Smash however is a completely different situation. We have a chance they could be separated(or a new Captain). But yeah, it doesn't really help that the character is actually Pikmin & Captain when it was designed. Understandably they're supposed to be the focus(since the Pikmin have differences as species where the Captains are pretty much the same overall, for the gameplay to work well, anyway).

 

[Louie G.]

With the Pikmin topic at hand though, I do kinda wonder if Pikmin 4 doing as well as it has gives us the possibility of the Rescue Corps recruit being playable, potentially making them sorta like Isabelle in that they'd have some similar moves to Olimar but could also do unique things like using Rock/Ice/Glow Pikmin and Oatchi somewhere in their kit somehow.

I've honestly been sold on outright having them ride around on Oatchi at all times as sort of a mount character. I've yet to play Pikmin 4 so I don't know the full semantics, I'll have to fix that soon, but I think there's potential there and provides a more creature-centric Pikmin moveset. I've wanted a playable Bulborb for a while and if we can't get that, Oatchi might be the next best thing.

 

[Batkelley]

Clearly, the best option is to add Pauline and give her an Odyssey-themed moveset!

but also that should actually happen

Say, if Pauline ever does get in, will she be counted as a Mario character or a Donkey Kong character?

 

[DarthEnderX]

The schmovement from Cap Jump would be great but trying to translate the Capture gimmick to Smash Bros. sounds awful no offense.

Yes it does, so they shouldn't.

Just treat everyone like they're already wearing a hat. So it damages, instead of captures.

I feel like Cappy will never be outdated because unlike FLUDD, Mario's cap is a permanent part of his design. Mario throwing his hat forward feels like a natural extension of his character despite how strange it is with the full context of Odyssey.

Another important difference is, unlike Sunshine and FLUDD, Odyssey and Cappy are well liked.

Playing through Mario Wonder I could never bring myself to remove the Boosting Spin Jump badge, I love what that adds to Mario's kit.

Luigi Jump badge is by far the best badge for everything except water levels.

Well, and speedrunning.

 

[Kirbeh]

I feel like Cappy and FLUDD are both too specific. I had ideas for a more general Mario rework a bit back, your mileage may vary. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BjdVvkTZdzVRLZ-UpMV2Fn5xM00IbHI7RJd-05yTuCw/edit

That said, although more Poltergust for Luigi could be neat, E. Gadd using both FLUDD and Poltergust more extensively could be interesting, as well.

Gotta be honest, I didn't really get much mileage out of this one.

You basically turned Up Tilt, Up Air and Up Smash all into variants of his jumping animation.

The Mario Tornado as both Forward and Back Air is very strange, unless you meant for it to be more of the spin from the NSMB games/SMBW? And again, basing both on the same thing gives his kit less tools/variety. Same goes for neutral air being the last hit of is jab combo. I don't see why so many of his moves are simply borrowing the same animation from another already present in the move set.

I guess I wouldn't really mind the grounded dive from 64, but I'd rather keep the slide. It's really just swapping one 64 dash attack option for another.

You introduced the idea of a "neutral" throw and got rid of back throw?

I get that the idea of Super Stomp is intended to be a Smash version of Mario defeating foes by jumping on them, but I don't really think it works so well in practice when foot stooling already exists. At the very least, I think it would've been more appropriate as the Down Air replacement instead of giving him Doc's stomp.

Maybe it's just me but dedicating a special move to a basic action, that again, is just taken from his main jumping animation feels like a waste imo, especially with the multiple other variants of the same thing you already have in this version of the moveset.

Now I'm probably in the minority for this next one, but I've never been fond of giving the Bros. hammers in their Smash movesets. The hammers are iconic to the original Donkey Kong arcade game as a power up, but when it comes to actual Mario games, they don't really have a presence. Now the RPGS are a different story, but their Smash portrayals don't really take those into account. If they were to base Mario & Luigi more on Mario & Luigi and give them their hammers, I'd want them to be an integral part of the moveset as different hammer swings for all their smash attacks and such. Either that or add Paper Mario.

Overall, there are some neat ideas here. I personally do like the idea of giving Mario his kick from NSMB/Galaxy from when he runs into shells. A lot of the moveset does feel like it's just taking moves away though. In a way it's so general to the point that it feels like it's stripping Mario's toolkit down to almost nothing, on the other hand it's also got some moves that I would consider to be just as specific as Cappy and FLUDD. Namely the Wing Cap, and to a lesser extent the hammers for being almost exclusively reserved for RPG outings.

 

[Sucumbio]

Yes it does, so they shouldn't.

Just treat everyone like they're already wearing a hat. So it damages, instead of captures.

Another important difference is, unlike Sunshine and FLUDD, Odyssey and Cappy are well liked.

Luigi Jump badge is by far the best badge for everything except water levels.

Well, and speedrunning.

Wait Sunshine was unliked? I have not played it but I bought the NSO collection so it's in my back catalog but the one GameCube owner I knew at the time who wasn't wifey was rather taken with it so .. maybe not everyone hates it but was it a poorly reviewed Mario game ? Do any of them get actually bad reviews or poor fan reaction? I dunno but like maybe just every Mario thing ends up with a fan base and just not everyone likes everything Mario but I thought Sunshine did well so that's why I ask.

 

[Kirbeh]

Wait Sunshine was unliked? I have not played it but I bought the NSO collection so it's in my back catalog but the one GameCube owner I knew at the time who wasn't wifey was rather taken with it so .. maybe not everyone hates it but was it a poorly reviewed Mario game ? Do any of them get actually bad reviews or poor fan reaction? I dunno but like maybe just every Mario thing ends up with a fan base and just not everyone likes everything Mario but I thought Sunshine did well so that's why I ask.

Sunshine is considered the black sheep of the 3D titles as a lot of people didn't like having to use FLUDD. The oddity of the voice acting, the lack of different environments, and the slog of collecting certain shines and blue coins were also factors.
Plus a good handful of missions that are considered pretty jank and/or unfair.

People that grew up with it on the GameCube remember it fondly, but people coming off of 64 were expecting a more straightforward follow up and saw FLUDD as more of an annoying gimmick.

It's still a fairly well liked game, but with the GC's smaller audience and some of Sunshines design decisions turning 64 fans off from it you're going to find more people who vastly prefer 64, the Galaxy titles and Odyssey.