Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Noipoi]

Geno will be there. On this hill, I die.

x.x

The Star Hill, if you will.

 

[Sucumbio]

I know this much... I want Raven Beak but by the time the game is out I may rather someone from Prime 4 ... Hint hint Nintendo pls launch prime 4 with the new system and use all gimmick unwant I still use a wiichuck whenever possible.

 

[Louie G.]

what newcomers do you think are relevant right this period that Sakurai could consider for his plan

Well I've been pushing this narrative quite a bit lately, but it bears repeating. Animal Crossing and Splatoon have officially established themselves as fixtures alongside Mario and Zelda as Nintendo's flagship franchises. Both of them have had significant releases since Ultimate released that have taken the series into new heights (and horizons ). Personally when deciding to expand on first party series I can't envision a scenario where these two are not nearly first in line. Tom Nook and Octoling stand as some of the most prominent characters still absent from the roster - and even beyond Octoling, I see a lot of potential in Splatoon's extended cast.

To a lesser yet noticeable extent, Pikmin has been seeing a similar push. Pikmin 4 sold very well, introduced compelling new elements to the series and is a fresh new release. I mentioned a couple pages back, but I'm really getting sold on the idea of the Pikmin 4 recruit riding around on Oatchi's back. Not as surefire as the other two in my eyes but another one to consider and tbh just a really fun idea.

And then I guess Pokemon dropped last year, which may or may not have any bearing on next Smash. If a new Gen releases in the interim then I would expect Sakurai to have penned down his standard [insert new Pokemon here] slot and that would obviously be outside of our ability to guess right now. But if they leaned on Gen 9 instead, I suppose I'd tentatively say Meowscarada seems safe.

Abstaining on Fire Emblem and Xenoblade because DLC allowed them to expand and represent their Switch era titles, of which they've released new ones but I could see them simply bringing back Byleth and Pyra / Mythra and focusing on other series. The new candidates are obvious and you can do what you'd like with them - similarly to Pokemon whether or not these characters are relevant by the next Smash is determined by when the next games in these series release.

 

[Perkilator]

It's safe to the Project Plan is mostly liken be written or being prepared as we speak.

If that was the case, what newcomers do you think are relevant right this period that Sakurai could consider for his plan? Nintendo or any 3rd Party.

Other than Geno, I would say Rayman is looking quite good. Better than he was before

Probably whatever new Pokémon TPC has in store to promote, be it from this generation or the next.

 

[fogbadge]

Probably whatever new Pokémon TPC has in store to promote, be it from this generation or the next.

they did let sakurai pick the last two

 

[Ivander]

I mean, it really depends on if they are doing for a new Smash Bros. and when they started doing it. Ultimate really showed that timing is an important deal with characters, which is why we did not get an ARMS character or a Xenoblade 2 character in base game. So what we get for a new game or Ultimate Deluxe will really decide on if and when they have decided the characters. Considering that it's almost been a full year(3 days until) since Pokemon Scarlet and Violet, if they have decided the characters around the end of last year or this year, I feel like a Gen 9 Pokemon is a guarantee.

 

[RileyXY1]

I mean, it really depends on if they are doing for a new Smash Bros. and when they started doing it. Ultimate really showed that timing is an important deal with characters, which is why we did not get an ARMS character or a Xenoblade 2 character in base game. So what we get for a new game or Ultimate Deluxe will really decide on if and when they have decided the characters. Considering that it's almost been a full year(3 days until) since Pokemon Scarlet and Violet, if they have decided the characters around the end of last year or this year, I feel like a Gen 9 Pokemon is a guarantee.

I'm not sure about this, especially if they're going the Ultimate Deluxe route and newcomer slots are very limited.

 

[Stratos]

From the Kirby series, if it happens of course it will be Bandana Waddle Dee who will come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series, who from what I understand is the fourth most famous character in the Kirby series.

 

[Wonder Smash]

funny enough I actually feel Cloud has a good shot of returning and becoming a permanent fixture for SE in Smash. Its the other SE characters Im not sure about.

I don't see why Hero shouldn't too.

 

[Louie G.]

funny enough I actually feel Cloud has a good shot of returning and becoming a permanent fixture for SE in Smash. Its the other SE characters Im not sure about.

I'm kind of buying into this too since like... even if Sephiroth doesn't come back, the fact that we got another FF character kind of establishes it as a "major" universe. You wouldn't think of cutting Kid Icarus, or Animal Crossing, or Mother from the roster full stop. Obviously there are other circumstances behind this series vs those ones, but it definitely makes a stronger case for at least Cloud to stick around. So long as they can still secure the FF7 content we currently have - at least one stage and the new music from Sephiroth - I anticipate they will try to bring him back. I can see this being doable as long as more content is promised at a later date, yadda yadda. Maybe this time instead of building on FF7 content the incentive would be to open it up to Final Fantasy at large?

There's also the fact that Cloud was the first one added, which simply means he was always top priority. It's implied that Sakurai / Nintendo had always wanted to add DQ to Smash as well so it makes comparing these two a bit difficult, but for third parties (maybe with the exception of Snake?) I do think the veteran advantage will generally ring true. I do believe it would probably be easier to secure DQ content than FF, if only by a bit, but I think Cloud is the more popular character. I really do think they've got equal merit at the end of the day but if it can only be one then I'm inclined to lean slightly in favor of the OG.

 

[RodNutTakin]

My stance is that the Square Enix character situation next game is going to look like this in a normal, non-reboot or deluxe situation; Cloud and Hero are base game, Sephiroth and a newcomer from the company are DLC.

 

[Stratos]

Since Virtual pet is a video game genre, if a Virtual pet character comes as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series, it is more likely to be Agumon from the Digimon franchise.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

funny enough I actually feel Cloud has a good shot of returning and becoming a permanent fixture for SE in Smash. Its the other SE characters Im not sure about.

Thats how i feel about Hero tbh.

 

[chocolatejr9]

On days like this, I wish Nintendo would just buy the SMRPG stuff from SE. It'd make Geno discussion SO much easier because I swear I keep flip-flopping on his chances more than... um... something that changes a lot.

It's late for me, okay? Can't think right.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I get where you're coming from, but if anything, at the very least Louie could have a different moveset. If you're gonna incorporate the other characters, I could see them having similar playstyles to Olimar, but I fully and unabashedly believe that Louie has demonstrated enough in the series to make him stand on his own.

I even made a draft of a moveset concept for him. You can read it here, but the TL:DR is that while he still uses Pikmin, they're not the main focus of the moveset since it's been shown that he can survive on the Pikmin planet without them. His moveset more based on his mannerisms, interests, and overall personality. If you do end up reading it though, I'd appreciate and welcome feedback.

View attachment 380663​

That's pretty neat. So unlike the others, he's not a Pikmin & Captain character.

Incidentally, my issue with how Olimar and Alph are is they're devoid of their personalities, which only need some animations(with the same hurtboxes, of course, if they aren't being separated) at the bare minimum to fix a big part of it.

I don't play the Pikmin franchise enough to give any real feedback beyond some core bits of how they're implemented in Smash(specifically with the Pikmin & Captain thing). I've seen playthroughs enough to understand how most Captains are pretty interchangeable. But you can do more with what you said, mannerisms~

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I wish Square wasnt such a pain to deal with.

This guy is just begging to be turned into a boss for smash bros single player.

His whole thing is traveling the multiverse hunting down anime sword fighters the concept is right there.

 

[Ivander]

I wish Square wasnt such a pain to deal with.

This guy is just begging to be turned into a boss for smash bros single player.

His whole thing is traveling the multiverse hunting down anime sword fighters the concept is right there.

If going by what Sakurai states, it's more so copyrights in general than Square, between with the guy with the rights to the Dragon Quest music and how for more Final Fantasy VII music, they had to go to the copyright holders of all regions. Considering Square helped Sakurai with Hero and how they suggested to Sakurai that they add Eight and Solo alongside Luminary and Erdrick to justify adding more music when Sakurai was afraid there would only be 4 tracks for just Luminary and Erdrick, Square themselves seem more than eager to help Sakurai get their characters in Smash.

 

[Quillion]

Incidentally, my issue with how Olimar and Alph are is they're devoid of their personalities, which only need some animations(with the same hurtboxes, of course, if they aren't being separated) at the bare minimum to fix a big part of it.

I don't play the Pikmin franchise enough to give any real feedback beyond some core bits of how they're implemented in Smash(specifically with the Pikmin & Captain thing). I've seen playthroughs enough to understand how most Captains are pretty interchangeable. But you can do more with what you said, mannerisms~

All they really need to do is do the Byleth thing and give the different captains different taunts and idles. I have no idea why they saved that for Byleth alone, but it needs to be shared with the others.

They should do the same with Zelda if ALX Zelda will come back so she can feasibly have OoT/TP alts.

On days like this, I wish Nintendo would just buy the SMRPG stuff from SE. It'd make Geno discussion SO much easier because I swear I keep flip-flopping on his chances more than... um... something that changes a lot.

It's late for me, okay? Can't think right.

I'm personally hoping they can put Geno into Wonder as a cross-save update bonus for buying the RPG remake. Then he can finally be a main series character.

 

[EarlTamm]

I'm personally hoping they can put Geno into Wonder as a cross-save update bonus for buying the RPG remake. Then he can finally be a main series character.

My highest hope for Geno getting another appearance in the relatively-near future (Besides Smash) is potentially showing up in the next Mario Kart game, and that is only going to happen if they decide to go wild with their roster picks. Although, they kinda have to do something interesting with the roster after the post DLC MK8D roster brought in so many characters. Kinda funny how Mario Kart has found itself into a sorta similar issue to Smash in that way.

 

[AlRex]

Overall, there are some neat ideas here. I personally do like the idea of giving Mario his kick from NSMB/Galaxy from when he runs into shells. A lot of the moveset does feel like it's just taking moves away though. In a way it's so general to the point that it feels like it's stripping Mario's toolkit down to almost nothing, on the other hand it's also got some moves that I would consider to be just as specific as Cappy and FLUDD. Namely the Wing Cap, and to a lesser extent the hammers for being almost exclusively reserved for RPG outings.

Coming back to this, there is a lot of valid criticisms here, I probably would heavily revise it if doing it now (it's an older version of this that I just thought of because of the previous discussion). I think if doing it now, I wouldn't change/take away as much, and there are a lot of small errors here and there, as well, as you've pointed out. I run hot or cold on whether to add the hammers now, but I would say due to Donkey Kong and their RPG usage, they are more Mario associated overall than FLUDD, overall. I probably would just try to figure out a new Down-B and add in Doctor Mario's stomp move, like you said.

 

[Stratos]

After all, Geno while being a third-party character, is he considered a character of the Mario franchise or not?

 

[fogbadge]

After all, Geno while being a third-party character, is he considered a character of the Mario franchise or not?

yes

 

[Stratos]

yes

Thanks because I was confused since Geno is considered a 3rd party character and that's why I had doubts if he is of the Mario franchise or not, but I know as well as anyone that he made his debut in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars.

 

[fogbadge]

Thanks because I was confused since Geno is considered a 3rd party character and that's why I had doubts if he is of the Mario franchise or not, but I know as well as anyone that he made his debut in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars.

i know it’s an odd situation

 

[Dinoman96]

Smash Bros. counts him as a Mario character, yeah. Mushroom emblem and all.

It's kinda like Skullomania and the other Street Fighter EX OCs, originally created for that game but ultimately owned by Akira, hence why they all appear in their own fighter, Fighting EX Layer, though Capcom has given them some nods with costumes in Street Fighter 5, and also Shadaloo C.R.I. profiles.

 

[Quillion]

I still think both Waluigi and Geno need to be main series characters before they consider making them playable in Smash, as much as I love both of them.

 

[RileyXY1]

I still think both Waluigi and Geno need to be main series characters before they consider making them playable in Smash, as much as I love both of them.

As well as Geno appearing in non-SMRPG Mario games.

 

[fogbadge]

I still think both Waluigi and Geno need to be main series characters before they consider making them playable in Smash, as much as I love both of them.

so what you're saying is toad?

 

[Gengar84]

I still think both Waluigi and Geno need to be main series characters before they consider making them playable in Smash, as much as I love both of them.

I don’t really see that as an important requirement. I think the main focus should be trying to make the most fans happy. If there’s a ton of support for the characters, why get hung up on the details on whether they appear in mainline games or not? Especially in the case of Waluigi who has been active in the spinoff games for decades. Mario Kart is hugely successful so he’s got plenty of recognition through that alone. Geno seems to be more specific to the Smash fanbase but the SMRPG remake could really help a lot with the general audience. Neither character is really on my personal most wanted list but I think both have very valid reasons for joining.

I never really cared much for the argument that a character has to be mainline to be considered. Same goes for popular one-off characters like Skull Kid, Midna, or Urbosa. If their inclusion would get people excited and they could make for fun, interesting characters, that should be enough in my opinion.

 

[Opossum]

I still think both Waluigi and Geno need to be main series characters before they consider making them playable in Smash, as much as I love both of them.

Waluigi is a Mario Kart staple. The Mario Kart games almost always outsell the "main" Mario game on their respective systems by leaps and bounds, especially the further forward in time you go.

Waluigi not being a "main series character" isn't a demerit when Mario Kart is just as well known, if not more so, than the main platformers.

 

[Quillion]

I don’t really see that as an important requirement. I think the main focus should be trying to make the most fans happy. If there’s a ton of support for the characters, why get hung up on the details on whether they appear in mainline games or not? Especially in the case of Waluigi who has been active in the spinoff games for decades. Mario Kart is hugely successful so he’s got plenty of recognition through that alone. Geno seems to be more specific to the Smash fanbase but the SMRPG remake could really help a lot with the general audience. Neither character is really on my personal most wanted list but I think both have very valid reasons for joining.

I never really cared much for the argument that a character has to be mainline to be considered. Same goes for popular one-off characters like Skull Kid, Midna, or Urbosa. If their inclusion would get people excited and they could make for fun, interesting characters, that should be enough in my opinion.

There still needs to be some kind of soft limit though. There can be room to fudge it sure, but you can't just add characters willy nilly just because they're cool.

We can't have characters as random as Charlotte from FE Fates, Excadrill, and Beedle after all.

 

[fogbadge]

There still needs to be some kind of soft limit though. There can be room to fudge it sure, but you can't just add characters willy nilly just because they're cool.

We can't have characters as random as Charlotte from FE Fates, Excadrill, and Beedle after all.

they’ve been doing it for ages

 

[Louie G.]

No comment on Geno, but I don't think the main series argument holds up for Waluigi anymore. The main series are not the be-all-end-all of the Mario brand, the Kart / Party / Sports games often match or occasionally exceed the popularity and iconography of the Super Mario titles. I think Waluigi's overwhelming popularity speaks for itself - the wider audience does not care where he came from. He's a fixture of the Mario brand and known to an audience larger than that of Smash's existing playerbase. A lot of casual Nintendo fans probably scratch their heads at how Wario is here without his best buddy.

I think the core of this argument which many people have lost sight of is this - spinoff characters like Waluigi should not take precedence over the MAIN Mario cast present in most of the main series games. The sticking point here is Toad... which unfortunately, I feel like Sakurai has simply made up his mind about a long time ago. Everyone else - and arguably - is present and accounted for. You're not going to include Waluigi over Yoshi, but beyond that anyone is pretty much fair game.

We can't have characters as random as Charlotte from FE Fates, Excadrill, and Beedle after all.

I get that this is the exception rather than the rule but it certainly makes Waluigi - an actual character, and one who has been playable in probably close to 100 games by now - seem a lot less ridiculous. Like, he was already prominent and popular enough to be chosen as an Assist Trophy 15 years ago. I think people forget that's still kind of a meaningful role.

And quite honestly, I think they very well could add Beedle if they wanted lmao. Funny enough, Beedle has one advantage most other popular Zelda candidates don't... he is an actual recurring character. I'm not saying it's gonna happen or anything but I think he could be a good joke-ish character.

 

[Gengar84]

There still needs to be some kind of soft limit though. There can be room to fudge it sure, but you can't just add characters willy nilly just because they're cool.

We can't have characters as random as Charlotte from FE Fates, Excadrill, and Beedle after all.

If there’s a ton of fan support for the character and Nintendo owns the character, I don’t see why that would be a problem. We did just get Piranha Plant in Ultimate and I don’t think Excadrill is that much more random. Waluigi and, to a lesser extent, Geno aren’t really that random though. Both have had years of fan support and Waluigi has appeared in countless spinoff games as a playable character.

I do think it’s kind of funny that I always find myself on the defending side of Waluigi and Geno and I don’t even particularly care about the characters themselves. I just don’t really care for placing arbitrary limits on who should or shouldn’t qualify. My belief is that as long as it makes fans happy, that should be all that matters.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Waluigi and Bandana Waddle Dee

Founders of the "people think we're less important than we actually are" club.

 

[Gengar84]

I feel bad for a lot of my personal most wanted characters if people are debating whether Waluigi and Bandana Dee are important enough lol.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Waluigi is a Mario Kart staple. The Mario Kart games almost always outsell the "main" Mario game on their respective systems by leaps and bounds, especially the further forward in time you go.

Waluigi not being a "main series character" isn't a demerit when Mario Kart is just as well known, if not more so, than the main platformers.

I think it should also be pointed out that most of Wario's own interactions with Mario are confined to spinoffs as well, so he might as well be a spinoff only character too to the general public. He's had more appearances in Super Mario games than Waluigi, but...only two or three, depending on what you consider Wario Land 1.

 

[Louie G.]

It's honestly pretty impressive how quickly Waluigi rose to prominence, I was reminded of that playing Mario Party 3 with some friends the other night. Within a year of his debut he was already slotting in alongside this crew - with his own island at that! They had some big plans for the guy super early.

I think even if you wanna stick the spinoff fodder label on him, it's dishonest to put him on the same level as a randomly selected Pokemon or FE unit. There are very few characters with his attendance record, and the moment he was left out of Mario Kart 7 his absence was felt and vocally condemned. I don't think he's missed a single spinoff game since then.


?

 

[Laniv]

The sticking point here is Toad... which unfortunately, I feel like Sakurai has simply made up his mind about a long time ago.

That's what they said about Ridley, and look where he is now

 

[Gengar84]

That's what they said about Ridley, and look where he is now

True, I think his appearance in the Super Mario Bros. Movie might help his chances a bit. I thought he was a fun character in that movie and it was hugely successful. Mario was already iconic but I think that could only help. On a similar note, I feel like the outside media might help the chances for another Sonic character and potentially a League of Legends or Five Nights at Freddy’s character. Not that they’re anywhere close to locks but I think their chances are better because of those shoes and movies than had they not come out.