Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

That's what they said about Ridley, and look where he is now

You’re right, but unfortunately I’m not seeing that Ridley level unification behind Toad these days.

Sakurai didn’t just reconsider that stance on his own, it’s because of the fans’ relentless and vocal campaign that became impossible to ignore. Unless Sakurai feels especially inspired by Captain Toad I think this is what Toad needs to be reconsidered - which is what Waluigi has right now.

 

[Stratos]

I just want Waluigi to star in his own video game series let alone Wario series games like everyone else. But the question is how could it work? Of course, no one knows this, but I would like it to happen.

 

[Sucumbio]

You’re right, but unfortunately I’m not seeing that Ridley level unification behind Toad these days.

It may pick up but I see a larger issue which is allowing ourselves to hope for more than 1 new character. I think Ultimate being EiH means the next game isn't, instead a Who's New and Here's some Returning Favorites etc.so .. actually...

I say let's aside Geno because he's Nintendo adjacent, and then give it up for TWO newcomers... Toad AND Waluigi!

I am prepared.

Geno is first DLC imo.

 

[Gengar84]

Do you think they’d play into the fact that Waluigi is only a spinoff character by incorporating that into his moveset? For example, he could use a kart similar to Wario’s motorcycle and could use various sports equipment like Peach? Not sure that’s entirely necessary as we already have Wario and Peach for that but I could see it.

 

[RouffWestie]

Out of genuine curiosity for where the main-series-only idea comes from, here's a scenario:

Let's pretend the next Mario Kart releases, has Waluigi as the only other playable character that isn't already a fighter in Smash, and ends up greatly outselling Mario Kart 8 Deluxe for whatever reason.
And releasing on the same day is the next main series Mario game: New Super Mario Bros. 6. Which has Bubbles from Superstar Saga as a playable character, but the game utterly tanks on release for whatever reason, becoming the least selling Mario title of all time.

From the developer's standpoint, what do they stand to gain from adding Bubbles over Waluigi?

 

[UserKev]

There still needs to be some kind of soft limit though. There can be room to fudge it sure, but you can't just add characters willy nilly just because they're cool.

We can't have characters as random as Charlotte from FE Fates, Excadrill, and Beedle after all.

I agree with this. Oppossum helped me understand this better a long time ago. I used to be so ignorant to the point where I lost common sense. Characters must get in on accounts of sheer legacy, titles of their own. It's really important that they've seen multiple titles or permanent (VERY IMPORTANT) roles and recognition on their own accords. If never receives his own game, Waluigi is maybe THE ONLY ACCEPTION. Otherwise, the rest need this merit for the bigger message.

 

[Sucumbio]

Do you think they’d play into the fact that Waluigi is only a spinoff character by incorporating that into his moveset? For example, he could use a kart similar to Wario’s motorcycle and could use various sports equipment like Peach? Not sure that’s entirely necessary as we already have Wario and Peach for that but I could see it.

I remember someone being ticked off at the idea of using his sports moves but I'm like why Peach has a golf swing can't he have a moveset like his AT just more fleshed out? Meh sometimes people overthink things. Yep, I think you're onto something.

Out of genuine curiosity for where the main-series-only idea comes from, here's a scenario:

Let's pretend the next Mario Kart releases, has Waluigi as the only other playable character that isn't already a fighter in Smash, and ends up greatly outselling Mario Kart 8 Deluxe for whatever reason.
And releasing on the same day is the next main series Mario game: New Super Mario Bros. 6. Which has Bubbles from Superstar Saga as a playable character, but the game utterly tanks on release for whatever reason, becoming the least selling Mario title of all time.

From the developer's standpoint, what do they stand to gain from adding Bubbles over Waluigi?

Wait who is Bubbles again? Uh I don't think it makes sense to not include your most requested fighters especially ones so close to the hip so to speak.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ll just never understand the hangup with whether something is main series or a recurring character. If the character made a lasting impact and they have a lot of fans, why should either of these matter? At some point, we’re going to run out of recurring characters for mainline entries of games and then what? Once we get Toad and maybe a couple others like Pauline are we just not ever getting another Mario character? Are Impa and Beedle the only possible Zelda newcomers we can get? It just makes no sense to me to have that restriction.

 

[RouffWestie]

I remember someone being ticked off at the idea of using his sports moves but I'm like why Peach has a golf swing can't he have a moveset like his AT just more fleshed out? Meh sometimes people overthink things. Yep, I think you're into something.



Wait who is Bubbles again? Uh I don't think it makes sense to not include your most requested fighters especially ones so close to the hip so to speak.

The old man who was in the Chateau and spent years telling jokes to his reserve

 

[fogbadge]

Typical, toad finally comes up and people just say he’s not popular enough

 

[Laniv]

True, I think his appearance in the Super Mario Bros. Movie might help his chances a bit. I thought he was a fun character in that movie and it was hugely successful. Mario was already iconic but I think that could only help. On a similar note, I feel like the outside media might help the chances for another Sonic character and potentially a League of Legends or Five Nights at Freddy’s character. Not that they’re anywhere close to locks but I think their chances are better because of those shoes and movies than had they not come out.

I feel like the movie and Super Mario Bros. Wonder being runaway successes are Toad's ace(s) in the hole. I'll admit that Waluigi is way more popular right now, but Toad's advantages over him are his seniority and his consistent appearances across the Mario series.

I'd also mention "has his own game" but Mario lore-heads get up in arms about that. I should know, because I'm one of those folks.

 

[Gengar84]

Typical, toad finally comes up and people just say he’s not popular enough

I think Toad is more than popular enough. I think his only potential hurdle is his inclusion in Peach’s moveset. That can be easily addressed by either changing Peach’s moveset or going with Captain Toad over default for the playable character.

 

[HyperSomari64]

And releasing on the same day is the next main series Mario game: New Super Mario Bros. 6. Which has Bubbles from Superstar Saga as a playable character, but the game utterly tanks on release for whatever reason, becoming the least selling Mario title of all time.

From the developer's standpoint, what do they stand to gain from adding Bubbles over Waluigi?

Hey, don't underestimate the thief from M&L, at least his most recent appearance was in Paper Jam. Unlike the rest of Superstar Saga characters that got Thanos-snapped when Dream Team was released.

Instead NSMB6 should include Queen Bean as a playable character, She deserves it.

 

[fogbadge]

I think Toad is more than popular enough. I think his only potential hurdle is his inclusion in Peach’s moveset. That can be easily addressed by either changing Peach’s moveset or going with Captain Toad over default for the playable character.

don’t remind me. he’s the same level as the mecha koopa

and poor Rex is on the same level as morgana from P5

 

[Gengar84]

don’t remind me. he’s the same level as the mecha koopa

and poor Rex is on the same level as morgana from P5

Hey, at least Rex showed up in some way in the moveset. Nia only got a Mii outfit, which I suppose is better than nothing though I don’t care about Miis.

 

[Laniv]

don’t remind me. he’s the same level as the mecha koopa

and poor Rex is on the same level as morgana from P5

Remember, we have the power to make Toad a popular choice.

Also, if you want to get technical, he's on the same level as Sans or as K. Rool was in the last game. And look where the croc is now!

 

[Gengar84]

My personal dream Mario pick is either Goomba or Goombella but I’d be okay with any of the more popularly speculated characters too. Toad, Waluigi, annd Geno all have great reasons for consideration and I feel like they’re all deserving of a spot (though I don’t like that word).

 

[fogbadge]

Hey, at least Rex showed up in some way in the moveset. Nia only got a Mii outfit, which I suppose is better than nothing though I don’t care about Miis.

yeah but morgana is one of the worst characters in that game so that's why it stings. and despite everyone apparently now hating rex i actually liked him. not the best of the characters in that game but better than who we got

Remember, we have the power to make Toad a popular choice.

Also, if you want to get technical, he's on the same level as Sans or as K. Rool was in the last game. And look where the croc is now!

well we have been trying and we're not going to stop now

i suppose but i'm really turning against characters being part of someone else's moves. unless it's the whole point of the moveset. like pikmin, lumas and B&K

 

[Ivander]

yeah but morgana is one of the worst characters in that game so that's why it stings. and despite everyone apparently now hating rex i actually liked him. not the best of the characters in that game but better than who we got

Apparently now? Last time I checked, many of his detractors did a quick 180 after Xenoblade 3. And nowadays I hardly see anybody hating on him.

 

[fogbadge]

Apparently now? Last time I checked, many of his detractors did a quick 180 after Xenoblade 3. And nowadays I hardly see anybody hating on him.

it's hard to keep track with these people

 

[SPEN18]

Yes, in general and on average, spinoff games tend to be less important than mainline games and so characters only appearing in spinoffs tend to be disadvantaged. Not disqualified, just disadvantaged.
However, the Mario spinoffs are much more important than your average spinoff games. Their performances range from solid, safe investments to absolute megabusters. Appearing in those definitely has to count for something, especially if you're one of the most consistent and most popular attendees. Of course, it is not like Waluigi is the main character or one of the primary reasons for those games' successes, but his appearances aren't a net zero.

Waluigi is a classic example of a character being weak in some areas but making up for it in others. His role and series importance are not great but, somehow in spite of that, his popularity, recognizability, and relevance to the public eye are exceptional. There is not just one way that characters can succeed. Waluigi, perhaps fittingly, draws his merit from a slightly less conventional means.

There is also the matter of Waluigi not being created by Miyamoto or Nintendo themselves, which also puts him at somewhat of a disadvantage. Though obviously we have seen other characters like Diddy gain admission despite not being Nintendo-created, so while it's a slight disadvantage it can be overcome by other merits.

 

[Gengar84]

Apparently now? Last time I checked, many of his detractors did a quick 180 after Xenoblade 3. And nowadays I hardly see anybody hating on him.

It’s all just personal preference but my opinion on Rex hasn’t changed. I just never particularly liked the character. My friend and I got into some friendly arguments because he liked Rex. I bought the DLC of XBC3 but I’m still only in the first few hours so I haven’t seen Rex in action yet. I think it might just be something with his genre of character that just doesn’t click with me because I don’t really like Lloyd Irving or Sora all that much either. Again, personal preference and there’s nothing wrong with people that do like him.

If I was to rank the Xenoblade 2 playable characters from my own personal like to dislike, it would go something like this:

Nia > Morag > Zeke > Vandham > Rex > Tora

 

[fogbadge]

It’s all just personal preference but my opinion on Rex hasn’t changed. I just never particularly liked the character. My friend and I got into some friendly arguments because he liked Rex. I bought the DLC of XBC3 but I’m still only in the first few hours so I haven’t seen Rex in action yet. I think it might just be something with his genre of character that just doesn’t click with me because I don’t really like Lloyd Irving or Sora all that much either. Again, personal preference and there’s nothing wrong with people that do like him.

If I was to rank the Xenoblade 2 playable characters from my own personal like to dislike, it would go something like this:

Nia > Morag > Zeke > Rex > Torra

well that’s a whole 3rd of jrpgs you can’t play

 

[Gengar84]

well that’s a whole 3rd of jrpgs you can’t play

I didn’t say I can’t still enjoy the games just because I don’t care for the main character. I actually loved Symphonia and the Kingdom Hearts games are fun though their stories are a bit lacking. Xemnas is one of my favorite game characters. I can usually find at least a few characters in each game that appeal to me.

 

[Sucumbio]

My personal dream Mario pick is either Goomba or Goombella but I’d be okay with any of the more popularly speculated characters too. Toad, Waluigi, annd Geno all have great reasons for consideration and I feel like they’re all deserving of a spot (though I don’t like that word).

Would you settle for Toad with his 8th alt being a Goomba?

 

[fogbadge]

I didn’t say I can’t still enjoy the games just because I don’t care for the main character. I actually loved Symphonia and the Kingdom Hearts games are fun though their stories are a bit lacking. Xemnas is one of my favorite game characters. I can usually find at least a few characters in each game that appeal to me.

surely we nothings are the same? eternal

 

[DarthEnderX]

There still needs to be some kind of soft limit though. There can be room to fudge it sure, but you can't just add characters willy nilly just because they're cool.

Unfortunately, not only can they do that, the character doesn't even have to be cool.

Lookin' at you, Piranha Plant.

I just want Waluigi to star in his own video game series let alone Wario series games like everyone else. But the question is how could it work? Of course, no one knows this, but I would like it to happen.

Waluigi's Wrecking Crew.

A retro Nintendo title gets a revival, and Waluigi gets a game that's suited to his character(getting paid to destroy things).

I'll admit that Waluigi is way more popular right now, but Toad's advantages over him are his seniority and his consistent appearances across the Mario series.

Plus, Captain Toad actually has his own series.

 

[fogbadge]

Waluigi's Wrecking Crew.

A retro Nintendo title gets a revival, and Waluigi gets a game that's suited to his character(getting paid to destroy things).

Sounds like a good idea actually

 

[Gengar84]

Unfortunately, not only can they do that, the character doesn't even have to be cool.

Lookin' at you, Piranha Plant.

Waluigi's Wrecking Crew.

A retro Nintendo title gets a revival, and Waluigi gets a game that's suited to his character(getting paid to destroy things).

Plus, Captain Toad actually has his own series.

I think Piranha Plant has a cool design and is really unique to play. I’d have rather had a Goomba or a Boo but I think Plant is cool too. I think a lot of Mario enemies have fun designs and I personally prefer them over most of the actual characters.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Hey, don't underestimate the thief from M&L, at least his most recent appearance was in Paper Jam. Unlike the rest of Superstar Saga characters that got Thanos-snapped when Dream Team was released.

Instead NSMB6 should include Queen Bean as a playable character, She deserves it.

I hate to break it to you, but... the thief's name is Popple, and he actually was Thanos'd with Nabbit in the Paper title. Bubbles is actually the name of the old madman who created the obnoxious soda monster.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think Piranha Plant has a cool design and is really unique to play.

I'm sorry to hear about your illness.

 

[Sucumbio]

Lookin' at you, Piranha Plant.

Zing. Heh but I like plant

 

[Gengar84]

I'm sorry to hear about your illness.

I forgive you.

 

[Perkilator]

I just finished yet another fantasy roster, this time properly in the form of each game's character select screen. Feel free to chew me out for some of my choices.

 

[UserKev]

I’ll just never understand the hangup with whether something is main series or a recurring character. If the character made a lasting impact and they have a lot of fans, why should either of these matter? At some point, we’re going to run out of recurring characters for mainline entries of games and then what? Once we get Toad and maybe a couple others like Pauline are we just not ever getting another Mario character? Are Impa and Beedle the only possible Zelda newcomers we can get? It just makes no sense to me to have that restriction.

I JUST became a voucher for Birdo and Kamek and will NEVER stop until they see the day. I'm amazed at how slept on these two are. You have a perfect echo choice and a just as long recurring blue magic Koopa who literally raised Bowser. There's absolute no reason why these two should miss the next train.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I think Toad is more than popular enough. I think his only potential hurdle is his inclusion in Peach’s moveset. That can be easily addressed by either changing Peach’s moveset or going with Captain Toad over default for the playable character.

At this point I just don't see Captain Toad seriously getting in, at least not as the default Toad (could be an obvious alt tho). I mean, assuming next Smash release around 2-3 years after the release of their next console, the game will be 12-13 years old by that point, and we know relevancy is super important for how Smash choose characters unless you're super popular. Also there's just way too much competition in the Mario universe right now with Waluigi, Geno, Pauline, King Boo, and you could probably make a case for Nabbit and Kamek too.

 

[Louie G.]

Do you think they’d play into the fact that Waluigi is only a spinoff character by incorporating that into his moveset? For example, he could use a kart similar to Wario’s motorcycle and could use various sports equipment like Peach? Not sure that’s entirely necessary as we already have Wario and Peach for that but I could see it.

To some extent they should, I think at the very least you have the tennis racket and let him whack a ball around. And I believe his air swimming abilities from the Tennis games would make for a great recovery. But I would much prefer that on the whole, they let Waluigi's dynamic character dictate the moveset over simply reaching for the "canon" references. Waluigi is both extremely defined as a dastardly, cheating sore loser but also a pretty blank slate in terms of what you can DO with him.

Anyone in the Mario universe can swing a bat and ride a go-kart. What is unique to Waluigi? In my eyes it's his characterization as a cheater. Waluigi is essentially a cartoon villain - by design of course, he looks just like D-ick Dastardly (they censored me for this lol). And remember those amazing Mario sports opening cutscenes? He and Wario make for such a hilarious villainous duo. Probably inspired by another duo of wacky animated schemers...

<-- Tonzura and Boyacky from Time Bokan / Yatterman.

So let's lean into that - for his forward tilt, maybe he pokes you in the eye as if he was one of the Three Stooges. He air swims upward like Lupin the Third and at the peak, if he hasn't grabbed the ledge, wiggles around frantically and plummets straight down like Wile E Coyote. And he embodies an unpredictability and outright strangeness, getting hit with some of Waluigi's attacks should feel unfair because that's exactly his game. Like an Up Smash where he contorts into the pose of an upside down L, with a random spike on his fingertips. You'll be left wondering what the hell happened and feel cheated out of your win, and Waluigi will be laughing all the way to the winner's podium. Just crazy stuff like that, yknow? Really just spitballing all the wackiest ideas I can think of. And why not, let's give him that burying stomp that has become so iconic of his presence in Smash by now.

Smash doesn't get to simply let a character's personality guide their moveset in this way very often and I think it would make for a really fun and refreshing character. Not without his references, but there's so much untapped potential with Waluigi and Smash may be just the place to bring it out. That's what is compelling about him to me, at least.

 

[SharkLord]

To some extent they should, I think at the very least you have the tennis racket and let him whack a ball around. And I believe his air swimming abilities from the Tennis games would make for a great recovery. But I would much prefer that on the whole, they let Waluigi's dynamic character dictate the moveset over simply reaching for the "canon" references. Waluigi is both extremely defined as a dastardly, cheating sore loser but also a pretty blank slate in terms of what you can DO with him.

Anyone in the Mario universe can swing a bat and ride a go-kart. What is unique to Waluigi? In my eyes it's his characterization as a cheater. Waluigi is essentially a cartoon villain - by design of course, he looks just like D-ick Dastardly (they censored me for this lol). And remember those amazing Mario sports opening cutscenes? He and Wario make for such a hilarious villainous duo. Probably inspired by another duo of wacky animated schemers...

<-- Tonzura and Boyacky from Time Bokan / Yatterman.

So let's lean into that - for his forward tilt, maybe he pokes you in the eye as if he was one of the Three Stooges. He air swims upward like Lupin the Third and at the peak, if he hasn't grabbed the ledge, wiggles around frantically and plummets straight down like Wile E Coyote. And he embodies an unpredictability and outright strangeness, getting hit with some of Waluigi's attacks should feel unfair because that's exactly his game. Like an Up Smash where he contorts into the pose of an upside down L, with a random spike on his fingertips. You'll be left wondering what the hell happened and feel cheated out of your win, and Waluigi will be laughing all the way to the winner's podium. Just crazy stuff like that, yknow? Really just spitballing all the wackiest ideas I can think of. And why not, let's give him that burying stomp that has become so iconic of his presence in Smash by now.

Smash doesn't get to simply let a character's personality guide their moveset in this way very often and I think it would make for a really fun and refreshing character. Not without his references, but there's so much untapped potential with Waluigi and Smash may be just the place to bring it out. That's what is compelling about him to me, at least.

Honestly yeah, it's cool seeing all the little nods, but it can feel a little stale when the moveset is just "Hey look at all these references." I think it's cool when fighters get a couple traits unique to Smash, even if it's just a few unique movements for the normals.

Also I think it would be funny if his intro is coming out of an Assist Trophy. Waluigi's the wierdo character out of the Mario cast and would likely be an oddball in Smash just by his actions alone. I think he could pull it off

 

[Gengar84]

Honestly yeah, it's cool seeing all the little nods, but it can feel a little stale when the moveset is just "Hey look at all these references." I think it's cool when fighters get a couple traits unique to Smash, even if it's just a few unique movements for the normals.

Also I think it would be funny if his intro is coming out of an Assist Trophy. Waluigi's the wierdo character out of the Mario cast and would likely be an oddball in Smash just by his actions alone. I think he could pull it off

I think it depends on the character for me. If a character has enough canon moves that can fill out a moveset, I generally prefer they try to stick to the source material as much as they can. On the other hand, I’m also very open to adding a few original Smash attacks if the character has limited options from their home series. For example, I’m totally fine with Captain Falcon’s totally original moveset but Donkey Kong lacking his rolling dash attack for so long always bothered me.

 

[Laniv]

At the end of the day, I think Toad can still carve out a niche as the "power-up guy" on the roster--he's the one who hands out power-ups in the Toad houses, so why not use them to fight?

And if I'm being honest, y'all are sleeping hard on King Boo.