Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Perkilator]

Okay, I say this who genuinely likes the idea of Dixie as a Diddy Echo: to say being an Echo is the only way for some characters to get in is a needlessly restrictive mindset.

Anyway, to change the subject:

The results are in! Guess she must've heard Noah was already here, because Mio pulled off the victory in her first poll!

Look forward to seeing how the Agnian off-seer's dodgetank fighting style and unique set of weapons could stand out in Smash Bros. later this year. pic.twitter.com/iSU98JKyR2

— Delzethin (@Delzethin) October 27, 2023

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

So, random thought, but - going forward, do you think any of the Echoes will ever actually be decloned, or are they kind of just set as clones/semi-clones forever now? Like, given how characters like Ganondorf have been handled, I feel like it'd kind of be a shame if someone like Dark Samus got an opportunity to shine but didn't get any additional unique elements (or even properties) beyond just alternate animations and will never, ever get to be its own character because it'd alienate fans of the already-existing moveset.

Oh, and what changes would you suggest?

 

[Gengar84]

So, random thought, but - going forward, do you think any of the Echoes will ever actually be decloned, or are they kind of just set as clones/semi-clones forever now? Like, given how characters like Ganondorf have been handled, I feel like it'd kind of be a shame if someone like Dark Samus got an opportunity to shine but didn't get any additional unique elements (or even properties) beyond just alternate animations and will never, ever get to be its own character because it'd alienate fans of the already-existing moveset.

Oh, and what changes would you suggest?

I could see Dark Samus being decloned at some point but I’m not really expecting the same for the others. I think a good way to go about it is to bring back custom moves so we can decide whether and how to declone the echoes ourselves.

 

[Troykv]

Okay, I say this who genuinely likes the idea of Dixie as a Diddy Echo: to say being an Echo is the only way for some characters to get in is a needlessly restrictive mindset.

Anyway, to change the subject:

The results are in! Guess she must've heard Noah was already here, because Mio pulled off the victory in her first poll!

Look forward to seeing how the Agnian off-seer's dodgetank fighting style and unique set of weapons could stand out in Smash Bros. later this year. pic.twitter.com/iSU98JKyR2

— Delzethin (@Delzethin) October 27, 2023

Damn, this has being the whole year... even when they were competing against just side characters, Alear loses again, it's amusing at this point xD

 

[Gengar84]

Damn, this has being the whole year... even when they were competing against just side characters, Alear loses again, it's amusing at this point xD

I liked Mio a lot as a character. Both her and Noah were pretty cool. My preferred option for a Xenoblade 3 character is a permanent Ouroboros fusion form of both Noah and Mio rather than see either get in separately or as a tag duo. I personally prefer Mio to Noah even though I like them both and we just had Pyra/Mythra as a transform duo so that would be kind of boring to do that again for the next Xenoblade rep.

As for Alear, Engage just didn’t personally appeal to me the same way some other Fire Emblem characters did though I admit I never gave it a chance. I really liked Three Houses and Awakening and loved Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn but after watching the trailers, I decided to pass on Engage. Maybe I made a mistake in doing so and I might pick it up if it ever goes on sale (which is sadly rare for first party Nintendo games).

 

[Troykv]

I liked Mio a lot as a character. Both her and Noah were pretty cool. My preferred option for a Xenoblade 3 character is a permanent Ouroboros fusion form of both Noah and Mio rather than see either get in separately or as a tag duo. I personally prefer Mio to Noah even though I like them both and we just had Pyra/Mythra as a transform duo so that would be kind of boring to do that again for the next Xenoblade rep.

As for Alear, Engage just didn’t personally appeal to me the same way some other Fire Emblem characters did though I admit I never gave it a chance. I really liked Three Houses and Awakening and loved Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn but after watching the trailers, I decided to pass on Engage. Maybe I made a mistake in doing so and I might pick it up if it ever goes on sale (which is sadly rare for first party Nintendo games).

I personally believe Fire Emblem Engage is a very fun game with some very cool mechanics, but yeah, even myself isn't really into the main character besides finding the girl version quite cute.

Also I have my own agenda with FE characters in Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

I personally believe Fire Emblem Engage is a very fun game with some very cool mechanics, but yeah, even myself isn't really into the main character besides finding the girl version quite cute.

Also I have my own agenda with FE characters in Smash.

I’ve heard that the actual gameplay in battles is a lot of fun but the story and characters are lacking. Seeing as the character interactions were my favorite part of Three Houses, I wasn’t sure I wanted to play a FE game lacking in that department. Personally, I don’t think any of the Fire Emblem games post Radiant Dawn quite live up to the story in those Ike’s games but I still generally enjoy them.

 

[dream1ng]

Okay, I say this who genuinely likes the idea of Dixie as a Diddy Echo: to say being an Echo is the only way for some characters to get in is a needlessly restrictive mindset.

Well that's two different arguments.

One is whether or not a character will only get in as an echo. Which is true for some and untrue for others.

The other is when saying a character could be a clone is conflated with someone wanting them to be a clone, or saying they could only be a clone.

So if someone says Dixie could be a Diddy clone, that doesn't necessarily mean 1) she couldn't be original, 2) she wouldn't be original, 3) they want her to be a clone.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I’ve heard that the actual gameplay in battles is a lot of fun but the story and characters are lacking. Seeing as the character interactions were my favorite part of Three Houses, I wasn’t sure I wanted to play a FE game lacking in that department. Personally, I don’t think any of the Fire Emblem games post Radiant Dawn quite live up to the story in those Ike’s games but I still generally enjoy them.

Probably doesn't help that the translation was pretty wonky.

 

[Jave]

As for Alear, Engage just didn’t personally appeal to me the same way some other Fire Emblem characters did though I admit I never gave it a chance. I really liked Three Houses and Awakening and loved Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn but after watching the trailers, I decided to pass on Engage. Maybe I made a mistake in doing so and I might pick it up if it ever goes on sale (which is sadly rare for first party Nintendo games).

If you liked the character interactions in Awakening I think you'll like the ones in Engage. The characters are definitely a lot closer to those than Three Houses or PoR/RD. It's important to know that in terms of tone and story, Engage is very different from Three Houses, and I feel the reason it gets a lot of flack from some people is because they tend to compare both games too much. If the game doesn't appeal to you based on what you've seen you don't have to play it (games are expensive after all), but if you're willing to give it a try you might be surprised, as I definitely was (I've played every FE in the series and Engage is my second favorite).

 

[Sucumbio]

If you liked the character interactions in Awakening I think you'll like the ones in Engage. The characters are definitely a lot closer to those than Three Houses or PoR/RD. It's important to know that in terms of tone and story, Engage is very different from Three Houses, and I feel the reason it gets a lot of flack from some people is because they tend to compare both games too much. If the game doesn't appeal to you based on what you've seen you don't have to play it (games are expensive after all), but if you're willing to give it a try you might be surprised, as I definitely was (I've played every FE in the series and Engage is my second favorite).

What is your favorite?

I really loved 3H story and social/sim elements... The battle mechanics and customization were great also. But I have to say my one complaint was the lack of unique maps. Like, every side mission took place on just a handful of maps so it got kinda redundant, especially after multiple playthroughs.

Radiant Dawn is still my all around favorite though, considering story, mechanics, maps and replay value. 3H is probably tied for second with path of radiance. I think Engage is great too though I feel it was a strange transition from 3H, I really wanted more of that kind of experience.

 

[Louie G.]

So, random thought, but - going forward, do you think any of the Echoes will ever actually be decloned?

To be honest with you, I don't have a lot of faith in this happening. To piggyback off what you said, it's taken this long for Ganondorf to progressively divorce himself from the Falcondorf mold after this much CONSTANT fan outcry. The biggest evolution since Brawl was giving him Ike's smash attacks.

Ultimately the reason why characters who are so frequently requested for improved movesets such as Ganondorf or Sonic likely fall to the wayside because the most focus is simply on the new additions. Ganondorf and Sonic will return in every game for the forseeable future - even if in the best case scenario where some of these characters get those much needed tweaks, echo fighters are largely here for their ease of inclusion. If renovating undercooked, boring or misrepresented characters who are that important to the roster has been this low priority, I don't expect Dark Samus or Daisy to suddenly shoot up the ranks.

I suppose I can see adjustments that progressively put them further in the camp of like, Melee clones? Adjusting stats, maybe one or two new moves like jeez at least give Dark Samus their tendrils or a new nair or something. But I'm not really holding my breath because priority is generally not put on changing veterans and echoes are the lowest priority characters on the roster. I hope to be wrong though, or maybe that the next game may readjust its focus and put more time into improving and modernizing some of the more antiquated and dysfunctional characters.

Oh, and what changes would you suggest?

I love what Smash Remix did with Dark Samus, so pretty much that (tendril down smash, Mewtwo nair) if she can't get a full reimagining. I think Lucina is already kind of a perfect echo fighter because all you need to do to completely change the way you play the character is to remove the tipper mechanic. Suddenly she and Marth are functionally super different.

Daisy... honestly, I'd rather she didn't have the float. Make her a little faster and a little physically stronger, more comfortable on the ground with weaker defensive / zoning options and a faster fall speed. What I'm suggesting here may be stretching past the confines of "echo" as they are currently but I feel like these are all kind of obvious.

 

[Jave]

What is your favorite?

Thracia 776. I know it's the last game to recommend to someone wanting to get into the FE series and that it's the most troll game in the series due to its... UNIQUE design philosophy, but I love it. Once you get how the game works it's just so fun to play.

 

[Sucumbio]

DarthEnderX

Wasn't this your idea?

I could have sworn you had suggested this was a possibility for the switch 2 design...

Maybe now I'll finally get to play Kid Icarus: Uprising!

 

[Ivander]

DarthEnderX

Wasn't this your idea?

I could have sworn you had suggested this was a possibility for the switch 2 design...

Maybe now I'll finally get to play Kid Icarus: Uprising!

The Nintendo Splitscreen....

I have been making this joke for a long time about how a company should make a handheld video game console that has a screen that splits into two and allows 2 players to play with one system and that they should call it The Splitscreen. I'd be both laughing and flabbergasted if a joke I've been making for a long time actually came true and by Nintendo of all companies.

Edit: I just realized, besides potentially helping with DS games if the DS comes to Switch Online, something like this could potentially help out for Wii U games as well, right? Since some Wii U games used the 2nd screen a lot.

 

[Sucumbio]

The Nintendo Splitscreen....

I have been making this joke for a long time about how a company should make a handheld video game console that has a screen that splits into two and allows 2 players to play with one system and that they should call it The Splitscreen. I'd be both laughing and flabbergasted if a joke I've been making for a long time actually came true and by Nintendo of all companies.

Edit: I just realized, besides potentially helping with DS games if the DS comes to Switch Online, something like this could potentially help out for Wii U games as well, right? Since some Wii U games used the 2nd screen a lot.

Absolutely, that's kinda what I'm hoping for. I have been thinking this is the next logical step since there's so many titles the wiiU and ds offered that just couldn't come to switch.

 

[DarthEnderX]

DarthEnderX

Wasn't this your idea?

I could have sworn you had suggested this was a possibility for the switch 2 design...

Kind of. In my idea though, the unit itself wouldn't have 2 screens. Your TV would have been your 2nd screen.

So basically... 'If you don't think the way I do, you're not a real fan'.

No, it's 'If your attitude is detrimental to a character, you're not a real fan of that character'.

And 'I'd rather they get nothing' is a detrimental attitude.

I still see many Dark Samus fans upset that she lost many of her unique abilities from being an AT

And would they be happier if it was still just an AT instead of being playable?

So, random thought, but - going forward, do you think any of the Echoes will ever actually be decloned, or are they kind of just set as clones/semi-clones forever now?

I could definitely seeing them get changed over time. A different Special here, a new FS there, etc.

 

[RodNutTakin]

I have probably complained about this specifically before, but am I alone in feeling that some people are grossly overestimating the likelyhood of a "reboot"? I'm not squarely in the position of "EiH will happen again" even if that'd be nice, but I simply cannot imagine Nintendo wanting to reduce the scope of Smash's crossover status after how well Ultimate performed and how big of a draw its marketing was (particularly the focus on new series and worlds being added to the game).

 

[dream1ng]

I have probably complained about this specifically before, but am I alone in feeling that some people are grossly overestimating the likelyhood of a "reboot"? I'm not squarely in the position of "EiH will happen again" even if that'd be nice, but I simply cannot imagine Nintendo wanting to reduce the scope of Smash's crossover status after how well Ultimate performed

The main thing that facilitated Ultimate's sales was the Switch's install base. Most series are unlikely to again reach the same commercial heights of their Switch iterations, like Mario Kart, Zelda, and AC.

It's not that they would be super keen to make a bunch of cuts, it's just that continuing to build off Ultimate isn't tenable, and eventually they will have to rebuild the roster. And when they do that, getting close to Ultimate's number just isn't feasible.

As long as the system's install base is healthy, and Smash has its staples and its newcomers (and is still good), the game will sell very well. Pokemon cut like half its dex, greatly angered the online fanbase, and put out a Gen that, frankly, was kind of underwhelming, and it still sold fantastic because it's a super popular IP on a system with a giant audience.

and how big of a draw its marketing was (particularly the focus on new series and worlds being added to the game).

This will be the case with every Smash

 

[osby]

I have probably complained about this specifically before, but am I alone in feeling that some people are grossly overestimating the likelyhood of a "reboot"? I'm not squarely in the position of "EiH will happen again" even if that'd be nice, but I simply cannot imagine Nintendo wanting to reduce the scope of Smash's crossover status after how well Ultimate performed and how big of a draw its marketing was (particularly the focus on new series and worlds being added to the game).

No, I agree. None of the trade-offs suggested for cutting a large portion of the roster feel like they'd be big draws for marketing a sequel to a casual audience.

• Most people would probably be turned off by big mechanical changes that increase the required skill level.
• More single-player content is unlikely to make a huge difference in sales unless it's on SSE-levels of "this could be its own game", which is highly unlikely.
• Moveset revamps... I feel like this thread tends to overplay how many characters really need them.

I don't believe a Smash game will ever start off with the specific design intention of reducing the roster to pre-Smash 4 levels.

Also, too often the word reboot gets thrown around as a magical way to solve all issues people have with Ultimate but that's a different topic

 

[Oracle Link]

I think you could easily turn olimar into Pikmin Captain with costumes for Olimar, Louie, Alph and the PIK 4 default Protag
Same with ness and lucas you could make them into An AMalgamtion of: Ninten, Ness, Paula and Lucas?
Also obviously the same can be done with almost all zelda characters!

 

[fogbadge]

I think you could easily turn olimar into Pikmin Captain with costumes for Olimar, Louie, Alph and the PIK 4 default Protag
Same with ness and lucas you could make them into An AMalgamtion of: Ninten, Ness, Paula and Lucas?
Also obviously the same can be done with almost all zelda characters!

olimar is the only one of them who's a captain

 

[Oracle Link]

olimar is the only one of them who's a captain

Okay i didnt know that (even tho i know pikmin 1 and 2)
So Pikmin user than? sounds worse IMO!

 

[SPEN18]

My observation is that the term "reboot" is actually used the most by two main groups:

1. Those who are fervently against cuts in general and want to establish a label that makes a roster with cuts sound less appealing

2. Those drastically overestimating what is meant by significant cuts or a roster scale-down, I mean we're not going back to like a 30-character roster

 

[fogbadge]

Okay i didnt know that (even tho i know pikmin 1 and 2)
So Pikmin user than? sounds worse IMO!

why would they need a shared title

 

[RileyXY1]

The main thing that facilitated Ultimate's sales was the Switch's install base. Most series are unlikely to again reach the same commercial heights of their Switch iterations, like Mario Kart, Zelda, and AC.

It's not that they would be super keen to make a bunch of cuts, it's just that continuing to build off Ultimate isn't tenable, and eventually they will have to rebuild the roster. And when they do that, getting close to Ultimate's number just isn't feasible.

As long as the system's install base is healthy, and Smash has its staples and its newcomers (and is still good), the game will sell very well. Pokemon cut like half its dex, greatly angered the online fanbase, and put out a Gen that, frankly, was kind of underwhelming, and it still sold fantastic because it's a super popular IP on a system with a giant audience.


This will be the case with every Smash

And Sakurai himself came out and said that Everyone is Here is highly unlikely to ever happen again. All the licensing such a venture would require is ridiculous.

 

[DarthEnderX]

And Sakurai himself came out and said that Everyone is Here is highly unlikely to ever happen again.

Sakurai also said Ridley was too big to be a Fighter.

 

[RileyXY1]

Sakurai also said Ridley was too big to be a Fighter.

Although it's unfeasible to do again due to all the licensing that would be required. Plus balancing would get harder and harder until it pretty much becomes impossible.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And Sakurai also had to use a new model to downsize Ridley. All his models were unfeasible at the time. The context matters. He was actually too big.

So the context still states in that particular what he said was actually correct. All the mods are pretty bad at balance. He noted balance too and how people like him as a boss(see what I mean about context? It wasn't just about size alone).

Frankly, it's rather unlikely he can easily license all that for a Deluxe. Having a new game where a good chunk come back, including through DLC, is significantly more feasible too. It also entirely depends on what they want to charge this time. This is not a case "things simply changed" for why he could include a fighter(which in every case, new information or products came up in some way to allow for said fighter to be included). This is licensing, a whole nother kettle of fish. The comparison just doesn't work because they're significantly too different of situations.

Also, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe wasn't full of 3rd party characters, had most characters share the same moveset, was also given DLC because some of it was through Mario Kart Tour(the effective 9th entry), and was significantly easier to port over. None of this relates to licensing problems, which again, makes the comparison poor. The only thing it shows at most realistically is Nintendo could potentially like the idea, but being able to implement is not as feasible as it's made. It's quite a task in many ways.

 

[Louie G.]

I have probably complained about this specifically before, but am I alone in feeling that some people are grossly overestimating the likelyhood of a "reboot"?

I do think we'll see more cuts than we've generally seen in the past, but there's no reason to believe they'll reinvent the wheel and start from scratch. Chances are, like we've been doing since forever, we'll be able to carry elements over from the previous game into the new one. So with that in mind, keeping at least a decent amount of the roster in tact feels likely with some lower priority or less popular characters getting shaved off for time. I don't think this constitutes a reboot, this is just a slightly more drastic version of what we've seen happen in every game pre-Ultimate.

The one that always has me scratching my head is when people suggest a "reboot" that is first party only, or keeps just Sonic and Pac-Man or something. Third parties are a part of Smash's identity now, those massive crossovers have become synonymous with the reputation of the series. I don't think it's likely that we'll be able to see say, Sora on the base roster next time around (I do think they would make an effort to bring him back as DLC again) but most of the companies on the roster have been pretty cooperative. If you bring back Pac-Man, you may as well bring back Kazuya. Banjo, bring back Steve or vice versa. Snake will return if Konami continues to be a good sport, Terry may as well come back forever because he's probably the cheapest third-party get on the roster. Smash's budget is always going to be enormous and has really done nothing but good for keeping these characters in the public eye. And I'm convinced many of these characters are now more important to bring back than a good chunk of first party veterans at large.

In summary I think we're going to see a Smash that prioritizes these third party additions as more of a roster staple and less as a "guest" appearance. Sega, Capcom, Konami, especially Namco have no reason to go anywhere so we're probably just gonna keep building on that. Microsoft is a little unpredictable, but seeing how they dumped Banjo-Kazooie on NSO of all things instead of just reselling it on the eShop I think that's a good omen for letting them participate in Smash. Square-Enix is Square-Enix but I'm convinced as long as they're promised some sort of DLC compensation later on they'll play nice for at least Cloud.

 

[SPEN18]

Once again, third parties in base are just less economical, for both Nintendo and the other party. Because you can't upcharge the price of the total package for one particular character or packet of content, and the consumer's dollar-to-content ratio is way lower. The impact of each individual character choice on performance and sales is also way lower, and each character doesn't have the pressure of selling a DLC pack on their own; this means that the upside of each additional third party rep is way lower.

I also don't think Smash has undergone a change in identity regarding third parties nearly as much as many would purport, either. The DLC in Ult is not really any different in nature than Smash 4's, except that there was more of it, consequently a longer speculation cycle focused on it, and no spot expended on bringing back a vet.

Overall, what happened for Ult was a confluence of atypical circumstances, not necessarily a blueprint for the future. It doesn't mean there'll be no third parties at all next base game, or just Sonic and Pac-Man or something, but it's also not going to be just picking up where Ult's DLC left off.

 

[Sucumbio]

I guess my take is I don't want Ultimates DLC to be DLC again. I paid for them because I wanted a complete roster but that's enough now, next game should have 6 or 12 NEW DLC characters and any Ultimate DLC coming back should be base.

 

[SPEN18]

As far as cuts go, I think a lot of people throw out guesses without really thinking it through.
Let's crunch some numbers.

We can expect a roster at least as big as Smash 4, the last time they made a true ground-up game on a console significantly more powerful than the one before it. So let's set the floor at around 50 characters. We know from the public statements of Sakurai himself that Ult's base roster, which stood at 69 characters (going off the fighter numbers for simplicity), is almost surely not sustainable with zero cuts going forward. The next base roster will probably not be quite as big as Ult's, so there's a ceiling.

So let's say, ballpark, we make three dozen cuts and add 15 newcomers, the latter of which is a pretty standard amount based on Brawl and 4. Ult's post DLC number was 82, so 82-36+15=61 gives us about 60 characters. This is more or less what I expect, give or take some characters, and leaning on the side of being more optimistic about the character count.

 

[CannonStreak]

I guess my take is I don't want Ultimates DLC to be DLC again. I paid for them because I wanted a complete roster but that's enough now, next game should have 6 or 12 NEW DLC characters and any Ultimate DLC coming back should be base.

Well, that might be a problem with Square Enix, who, based on what I read, likes to add their content in crossovers they are part of as DLC, if I recall correctly.

There may be some exceptions, but yeah, I don't think getting characters that were from Square Enix and already in a Smash game as base characters will be that easy.

If it is easier, or even much easier, everyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Louie G.]

Once again, third parties in base are just less economical, for both Nintendo and the other party. Because you can't upcharge the price of the total package for one particular character or packet of content, and the consumer's dollar-to-content ratio is way lower. The impact of each individual character choice on performance and sales is also way lower, and each character doesn't have the pressure of selling a DLC pack on their own; this means that the upside of each additional third party rep is way lower.

I also don't think Smash has undergone a change in identity regarding third parties nearly as much as many would purport, either. The DLC in Ult is not really any different in nature than Smash 4's, except that there was more of it, consequently a longer speculation cycle focused on it, and no spot expended on bringing back a vet.

Overall, what happened for Ult was a confluence of atypical circumstances, not necessarily a blueprint for the future. It doesn't mean there'll be no third parties at all next base game, or just Sonic and Pac-Man or something, but it's also not going to be just picking up where Ult's DLC left off.

I agree with you in theory, particularly that Ultimate had a specific mantra to bring back all characters and a lengthy high-budget DLC cycle that is hard to back up from and look at a potential base roster more logically again. Our minds are spiraling from this and you're correct it's not simply going to pick up where we left off.

On the flipside, I feel like breaking it down individually to assess why I'm having trouble seeing many of these characters get cut. I think it's worth acknowledging that Capcom and Konami straight up didn't get any DLC but received new characters on the roster - plus a Ratahalos boss, a bunch of Castlevania tracks. They're willing to throw their best at the game with only Mii Costumes as DLC in return. Sega will bring back Sonic forever, and Bayonetta is practically family by now. Namco is literally working on the game. Within these four companies, negotiations are historically smooth and I'd wager we may get another character on top of the ones we have. Terry is an oddball but I'm willing to say SNK is not the pickiest.

Microsoft is a new player and perhaps a bit unpredictable. But from what we're led to believe, Banjo and Steve were discussed in pretty close proximity. Banjo is a character who I suspect Microsoft might just let Nintendo rent out whenever they like for good PR. Minecraft might be more complicated, but it doesn't sound as if it was very difficult. Minecraft is apparently what led to such a good relationship in the first place and now they're just tossing Banjo Kazooie on NSO for what I assume is not a very high price. I do believe this is where we have a company who would negotiate some sort of DLC later on to make their full money's worth though, which is quite easy if they just add someone like Master Chief. Less certain than the aforementioned usual suspects but I think this will be a persisting partnership in some form or another.

I don't think I need to get into the complications of Square Enix and Disney / Sora, the latter would be very lucky to come back and the former will likely play ball in some slightly neutered form with the promise of DLC later. Ultimately though, none of what I said guarantees the return of all these characters but I think expecting a good lot of them to return is sensible on an individual basis.

 

[Sucumbio]

Well, that might be a problem with Square Enix, who, based on what I read, likes to add their content in crossovers they are part of as DLC, if I recall correctly.

There may be some exceptions, but yeah, I don't think getting characters that were from Square Enix and already in a Smash game as base characters will be that easy.

If it is easier, or even much easier, everyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

True though maybe this was simply to facilitate Sephiroth so they wouldn't need to have three DLC spots since there's also Hero. If Cloud was DLC in 4, and base in Ult with Sept and Hero being DLC in the same Ult, then theoretically they could all be base and we get a 4th or even 5th SE rep in the next game. But then again maybe only Cloud returns. Not sure yet haha.

 

[SPEN18]

I agree with you in theory, particularly that Ultimate had a specific mantra to bring back all characters and a lengthy high-budget DLC cycle that is hard to back up from and look at a potential base roster more logically again. Our minds are spiraling from this and you're correct it's not simply going to pick up where we left off.

On the flipside, I feel like breaking it down individually to assess why I'm having trouble seeing many of these characters get cut. I think it's worth acknowledging that Capcom and Konami straight up didn't get any DLC but received new characters on the roster - plus a Ratahalos boss, a bunch of Castlevania tracks. They're willing to throw their best at the roster with only Mii Costumes as DLC in return. Sega will bring back Sonic forever, and Bayonetta is practically family by now. Namco is literally working on the game. Within these four companies, negotiations are historically smooth and I'd wager we may get another character on top of the ones we have. Terry is an oddball but I'm willing to say SNK is not the pickiest.

Microsoft is a new player and perhaps a bit unpredictable. But from what we're led to believe, Banjo and Steve were discussed in pretty close proximity. Banjo is a character who I suspect Microsoft might just let Nintendo rent out whenever they like for good PR. Minecraft might be more complicated, but it doesn't sound as if it was very difficult. Minecraft is apparently what led to such a good relationship in the first place and now they're just tossing Banjo Kazooie on NSO for what I assume is not a very high price. I do believe this is where we have a company who would negotiate some sort of DLC later on to make their full money's worth though, which is quite easy if they just add someone like Master Chief. Less certain than the aforementioned usual suspects but I think this will be a persisting partnership in some form or another.

I don't think I need to get into the complications of Square Enix and Disney / Sora, the latter would be very lucky to come back and the former will likely play ball in some slightly neutered form with the promise of DLC later. Ultimately though, none of what I said guarantees the return of all these characters but I think expecting a good lot of them to return is sensible on an individual basis.

I mean it's completely unprecedented to have this many to bring back. For almost any single one of them, if you were to think of it as if they were the only third party on the roster, or one of like 2-3, then yeah it would seem way more likely for them to come back. So you cannot think of them in a vacuum like that. I'd say it's better to think about them relative to one another and in competition with one another since limited resources will have an impact likely as big as or bigger than the potential licensing issues (though licensing issues are not to be ignored, either). I think a lot of people are just not used to thinking of the third party vets in that way.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I guess my take is I don't want Ultimates DLC to be DLC again. I paid for them because I wanted a complete roster but that's enough now, next game should have 6 or 12 NEW DLC characters and any Ultimate DLC coming back should be base.

I want Joker specifically to be base. Tbh.

He is one of my mains in ultimate so I would very much like to keep playing as him without needing to worry about eShop closures.

I would say the same about Sora but honestly I don't see him ever being a base game character.

 

[Louie G.]

I mean it's completely unprecedented to have this many to bring back. For almost any single one of them, if you were to think of it as if they were the only third party on the roster, or one of like 2-3, then yeah it would seem way more likely for them to come back. So you cannot think of them in a vacuum like that. I'd say it's better to think about them relative to one another and in competition with one another since limited resources will have an impact likely as big as or bigger than the potential licensing issues (though licensing issues are not to be ignored, either). I think a lot of people are just not used to thinking of the third party vets in that way.

Fair points, I guess we're just gonna have to see. Following up a game like Ultimate is already in itself unprecedented so it's natural that we're gonna have more drastically diverse opinions of where we're headed than we've had in the past. I'm a bit more optimistic, mainly in those first four companies I alluded to, but I get where you're coming from and I've obviously got my own concerns and hangups about it too. I just don't see the likes of Mega Man and Ryu ever needing to seriously compete for space for example when they kinda speak for themselves.

 

[CannonStreak]

True though maybe this was simply to facilitate Sephiroth so they wouldn't need to have three DLC spots since there's also Hero. If Cloud was DLC in 4, and base in Ult with Sept and Hero being DLC in the same Ult, then theoretically they could all be base and we get a 4th or even 5th SE rep in the next game. But then again maybe only Cloud returns. Not sure yet haha.

Yeah, I see what you mean.

I can see only Cloud returning, too, but we should not count our chickens before they hatch.