Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Dan Quixote]

random question: anyone fancy a food themed stage? like say sweet mountain from sonic colours or luncheon kingdom from mario odyssey

Luncheon Kingdom sounds like the best answer for this, but I'd nominate one of the many food-themed Mario Party boards because Mario Party really needs a stage in Smash.

 

[Opossum]

Did we ever establish if Vocaloids even count as a gaming thing? Like, no offense, but I feel you'd have an easier time justifying somebody like Geralt or even Slenderman if you REALLY wanna stretch it.

I actually firmly disagree. I don't think either group would ever make it in, obviously, but at least characters like, say, Vocaloid's Hatsune Miku or Clippy from Microsoft Word originated from software. That, to me, is far closer to "originating from a game" than is the case for Geralt, Slenderman, or Turok, who don't even originate from purely electronic media (books, an edited photograph and accompanying story, and a comic book, respectively).

 

[Ivander]

Did we ever establish if Vocaloids even count as a gaming thing? Like, no offense, but I feel you'd have an easier time justifying somebody like Geralt or even Slenderman if you REALLY wanna stretch it.

I mean, we still sometimes have issues regarding Visual Novels(especially Fate/Stay Night), where some people argue on whether they are video games or not. When Visual Novels aren't that much different from those old text adventure games. And next to no one has any issue with Phoenix Wright being in Smash Bros.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I mean, we still sometimes have issues regarding Visual Novels(especially Fate/Stay Night), where some people argue on whether they are video games or not. When Visual Novels aren't that much different from those old text adventure games. And next to no one has any issue with Phoenix Wright being in Smash Bros.

How are visual novels not video games. Your choices affect the story in a digital medium. Even if there's not much game to it, they're games in the same way that the Oregon Trail is a game

 

[dream1ng]

Seeing how popular Ryu Hayabusa has become in Smash discussions, that's clearly not the case.

One, Ryu's popularity didn't originate during Ultimate, that's just when it came back.
Two, no one is calling Ryu Hayabusa an honorary Nintendo character because his whole revival series took place primarily on other platforms.
Three, what I said didn't preclude characters with Nintendo association becoming popular, it's just not on that basis anymore. It's incidental.

Four, tangentially, the general belief is it's likelier Ryu Hayabusa's default is his modern look, so it's not just the NES games people associate him with. In fact, those seem to be more ancillary to most people. Which is part of why his popularity is stronger than the other two.

Overall, the series got too many solid entries to be considered "c-tier". Even when talking about 3D games, people loved Shattered Soldier. Rogue Corps is the only blemish to the series that comes to mind but it's not enough to sit the series back or give it a bad image.

If history had stopped after the SNES/Genesis I would agree with you. But even Konami didn't give it much spotlight or budget in the following years (back when they were better, now no one gets much). I'm not saying it's c-tier as a whole, but... that's how a lot of people perceive it as these days.

Polls don't really tell us what fans think of the characters.

A poll with a sample size of several hundred is still better than a poll with a sample size of 1, which is what just your opinion would be.

But we have not just one poll, but every (legitimate) poll ever conducted for any Smash game. And they consistently do not reflect much popularity for 2/3 of these characters. Nor would typical discussion suggest otherwise. Nor would Smash itself.

And that outweighs the opinion of couple guys biased for the 80s.

However, I don't think anybody would be against characters that look like "Dutch" Schwarzenegger or "Rambo" Stallone in the Smash Bros series.

Not being against a character and being actively for them aren't the same thing. Lots of people aren't against lots of characters. Doesn't make them popular.

I'm sure most people wouldn't be against any halfway-liked original Zelda character. But only a small handful are actually popular.

Are you aware that those same things actually do apply to the series I was talking about? Contra wasn't just a hit on the NES, you know? It also had some hit games on the SNES and SEGA Genesis. So it wasn't just one generation for that series. It continued to have games after that.

I am aware of that. That's why my c-tier distinction was post-fourth gen, not third. Are you? You've been defining them as NES characters this whole time.

But after the fourth gen Contra petered off. That's far less overall prevalence/success than Mega Man/Castlevania/Dragon Quest/Pac-Man, either in terms of intensity of success during whatever gen (i.e. Pac-Man's arcade game) and/or the span of gens of prevalence/success.

If you really think these characters are in comparable situations, did Mega Man getting popular over Kunio surprise you? Did Pac-Man being popular over Bill/Lance surprise you? You originally implied Contra was next in line for Konami now that we had Castlevania. So it seems you understood how one was in higher regard than the other.

Same thing with River City/Kunio-kun. River City Girls success has helped brought more recognition to the series outside of Japan and now more games have been localized. Of course, in the end, to top it all off, River City also had a spirit event in Smash Ultimate, giving the series a more direct exposure to the Smash fanbase.

And look at all the popularity that hasn't caused.

I mean it's kind of a losing game for you to keep trying to argue their Smash popularity when there's literally no proof that backs up your claims and you have to then argue your take carries more weight than all evidence.

Not that polling is a foolproof 1:1, but no character that was actually popular in the fanbase has never shown up prominently on any poll and/or been mostly absent from all serious speculation.

But it's kind of pointless to bring this up because it doesn't change what I said, which the reason people wanted those characters in the game. They didn't want Mega Man because of Mega Man 9 or Simon because of Castlevania Judgement. They wanted them mainly because they came from the NES era.

Pal, none of the third-parties get supported primarily based on one system, they get supported based on the character/series. Even the ones with only one (notable) appearance, like Geno, wasn't supported because he came from the SNES. It's because they wanted Geno.

You think people want Lloyd because he came from the GameCube era? You think they want Travis because he came from the Wii era? They want them because they're Lloyd/a Tales rep and Travis Touchdown.

The NES games may be considered the most impactful, but Mega Man was a prominent character from the NES well into seventh gen. He was Capcom's mascot, they still gave him a lot of attention. At that point, "Mega Man" is going to mean more than just "NES character". You said it before. He was seen as an "honorary Nintendo character". Not an "honorary NES character". It's being myopic.

You can tell people view the Mega Man series as more than just NES by the fact that the second most popular character is Zero.

I mean, your belief that people view characters as system reps is being actively disproven by the fact that you don't comprehend how another NES character hasn't taken the place of Simon as the popular one on polls. Which also wasn't why Simon was as popular as he was. Nor Ryu.

Now, Simon is primarily associated with the NES, but he had that level of popularity because people saw him as representing all of Castlevania, and Castlevania prominently continued well past the NES. Again, with Lloyd, people don't support him just because of Tales of Symphonia, they support him because he'd be Tales' representative - and like how Tales is more than the Gamecube, Castlevania is more than the NES. Look at the content in Smash.

"Equating"? What are you referring to?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here but on the Little Mac part, yeah, he was definitely one of the most popular retro characters at that time. Seeing how fans loved the Punch-Out!! series and recognizing it as Nintendo's first combat-based series before Smash Bros existed, Little Mac's name popped up in just about every discussion involving retro characters and they were crushed when they found out he was an assist trophy.

You're putting Pit and Hero in the same category as Smash retro characters when that's incorrect.

Spoiler

First of all, Hero isn't a retro character any more than Mario is. Dude has shown up consistently every gen to high success.

Second, comparing first and third-parties is innately flawed because of how the two get in via different ways, which will affect how their popularity forms.

With that, thirdly, there was a retro spot specifically allocated for the first-parties at least in Melee, but thought potentially up until 4 as well, so that is going to bump up the popularity of some retro Nintendo characters as people predict them to take that spot. It's not popularity that formed as it did for the other characters. If there was some spot allocated for a character with a tail, suddenly you'd see a lot of characters will tails start shooting up in popularity.

As for Mac, yeah, of the retro characters he may have been among the more popular, but among all characters he wasn't that popular until he wasn't seen as in consideration for the retro spot anymore. Pit was seen as the retro character for Brawl, and he was revealed right at the beginning, so there really wasn't expectation for another, unless it was the G&W role - which Mac wasn't considered to fill. It was more ROB or Sukapon or Diskun or another weirdo.

Little Mac had some demand, but wasn't among the more popular for Brawl. Also, this isn't relevant to the third-parties, since they never got in this way. People will care about characters being NES reps when there's literally a spot carved out for such a fighter. You notice how popularity on that basis has dried up after people realized it was no longer a thing anymore? There were no popular retro first-parties during Ultimate.

looks at Ninja Gaiden

I'll let you answer that on your own.

Actually I'll let you answer that on your own:

My main concern (or maybe even fear) with a poll is realizing that not a lot of people voted for my MWs.

I'm mainly thinking about that SourceGaming poll from a little while back where many characters I expecting to see (such as Hayabusa) weren't anywhere on that list. Kind of shocking.

So... less than you were expecting to the point you were shocked.

I have no problem saying Ninja Gaiden.

But you know, it's strange you didn't ask anything like that about River City.

You... realize agreeing it's Ninja Gaiden implicitly weakens the "big volume-wise but not prevalence/visibility-wise" argument, right? It is commenting on River City.

It's actually a good argument because that also matters when it comes to getting characters in Smash. Not just popularity like you keep saying.

No, what fans think is iconic does not get characters into Smash.

Also, this conversation is about popularity because your original post was about their popularity. I know you keep trying to make it about other stuff. I'm saying Contra/Kunio are not particularly popular in the fanbase.

Well, you can't speak for everybody. Like I said more than once now, it depends on the person and the characters they already want. I like beat'em ups and my MWs (Billy and Jimmy) just happened to be created by the same company, so I was able to gravitate towards Kunio and Riki and their games very easily.

I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm giving you a situation where it literally has to be one or the other, or both. It can't be neither.

The lack of Kunio support is because they haven't played the game, or they have and they don't want them.

Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed by you not addressing it that you obviously have played games you don't actively support for Smash, and yet still can't seem to fathom others doing that for these series.

Yes, that's the point; I was using SourceGaming as an example, not in general. What I was saying was that my concern about an official poll is realizing that none of my MWs got enough votes and the poll by SourceGaming was an example of that.

By your own admission, Ninja Gaiden is a popular series across different generations and yet, even Ryu Hayabusa wasn't on that list.

You gave your own reason for why Kunio and Riki, or Bill and Lance weren't on that list but if Ryu Hayabusa isn't on that list either, then even you've got to find that kind of weird too. There's definitely something else up with that.

I've already addressed this:

Or that Ryu Hayabusa is more popular than Bill/Lance and Kunio, and he is also the one who has had more success (in the west) outside the NES era than those two? You haven't found the correlation that the more successful you are in more generations, the likelier it is you'll be requested?

I know Ryu is more popular, that proves my point, since his impact was higher across more generations; he's not just seen as some NES character.

Which is why I'm usually and repeatedly specifying Kunio/Contra in particular as characters without any notable demand.

And which list? SourceGaming? He's on that list, he's #30. Bill Rizer is #274. Kunio is even lower. So I think that helps my point... I mean you're probably going to say it helps yours, but... considering he's seen as much more than a retro character, it doesn't.

Which list are you looking at?

 

[Gengar84]

I actually firmly disagree. I don't think either group would ever make it in, obviously, but at least characters like, say, Vocaloid's Hatsune Miku or Clippy from Microsoft Word originated from software. That, to me, is far closer to "originating from a game" than is the case for Geralt, Slenderman, or Turok, who don't even originate from purely electronic media (books, an edited photograph and accompanying story, and a comic book, respectively).

What about characters like Chandra Nalaar that originated in a card game (Magic: the Gathering in this case). How do they compare to someone like Hatsune Miku? They did originate in a game, just not a video game. There are other characters from Magic that actually did originate in their digital card games like Kiora and Ral Zarek, though they aren’t quite as prominent as many others. I feel like none of them really have much of a chance anyways but it’s fun to speculate.

 

[RodNutTakin]

This talk about old series and all is making me want to seriously discuss the likelihood of one of my current most wanteds, that being Tako from Parodius.
My reasoning for the character has hinged on two main points; the popularity and legacy of the greater Gradius franchise especially in Japan, and the impracticality of making the Vic Viper a fighter.
Gradius is probably the one cornerstone of Konami's own IPs behind Metal Gear. It's gotten a fat load of games under its belt up to the Wii generation, lots of ports and re-releases, and that number only widens when you include things like Salamander, Parodius and Otomedius. The series made horizontal shooters the hip new thing for years to come when the series started rolling the ball in the late 80s--I'd argue the Galactic Nova segment in Kirby Super Star is a testament to how far its influence reached in video games. Not to mention all the other horizontal shooters Konami also did afterwards like Thunder Cross and Axelay. It's definitely considered a quintessential franchise in Japan, it had a good presence in Europe, and even in the US where most of the games were Japan or rerelease-only, the NES versions of the first game and Life Force are still considered to be staple classics for that system. I feel like it would make sense for it to be the next Konami IP represented that isn't something they hijacked acquired from Hudson Soft.

Though there's one glaring obstacle for playable representation, and that's the fact that the Vic Viper is ill-suited to be a proper fighter, being a flying ship incapable of grounded combat in its home series. While a lot of weird fighters have gotten in Smash, I feel that this would be a case where it'd be more trouble than it's worth to try and animate the Vic Viper as a fighter without no longer feeling like the ship at all--even in Parodius, the ship is still depicted as limbless in gameplay despite being sentient in this series.

But Parodius is also the solution to this problem, fittingly enough, because of its own mascot, the aforementioned Tako.
Parodius pretty much took over the main Gradius series for most of the 90s after its MSX debut, and to date, four of the five main games released for the series have seen Nintendo versions--Da, Gokujou, and Jikkyou Oshaberi all had Super Famicom versions, the third actually being the debut platform for the game prior to its enhanced PS1 and Saturn release, and the original MSX Parodius has been rereleased for the Wii and Wii U's Japanese Virtual Console services.
Tako, the headband-wearing cartoony octopus and main mascot of the MSX game and Da, uses one of the Vic Viper's weapon loadouts from Gradius II, and this loadout is inherited for the octopi that replace him in succeeding games, his sons Takosuke and Takohiko. And it is this trait that makes them, in my eyes, a fitting fighter substitute for the Vic Viper ship in Smash; being an animate, cartoony octopus means that they can be translated to a fighting role much easier than the stiff Vic Viper ship--not only can you have Tako make use of his Parodius weaponry for attacks (the Tail Gun, Ripple Laser, 2-Way Missiles, Options along with some of the Bell powerups in Parodius), but he'd be able to be easily animated moving, jumping, and fighting like any other character without it feeling like you're playing someone completely different.

The only thing is, I'm not sure, especially from a Japanese fanbase standpoint, if anyone else understands my viewpoint as well in regards to all of this. I've got no measurements on how many people in Japan have said or thought "Please put Gradius content in Smash", but even if they have, I doubt many of them would see how it could work the way I do, much like how most people expected Heihachi as the Tekken character when Kazuya ended up being much easier to translate into Smash because of his Devil form making it easier to visualize him being able to fight in the air.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Reminder that Secret Agent Terry the Turtle was created for a video game and is thus eligable for Smash.

He's a hard lock for Smash 6 guys, just you wait and see.

 

[Gengar84]

Reminder that Secret Agent Terry the Turtle was created for a video game and is thus eligable for Smash.

He's a hard lock for Smash 6 guys, just you wait and see.

I don’t know if it’s just me but Phineas has always reminded me of Spy Vs. Spy.

 

[HyperSomari64]

I don’t know if it’s just me but Phineas has always reminded me of Spy Vs. Spy.

View attachment 374541

Fun Fact: There was a video game based on this for home computers like the Commodore 64 and ZX Spectrum.
There is also a port of that on the NES by Kemco, and weirdly enough the game has a cult following in Japan. (It was referenced in Hyperdimension Neptunia)
Just sayin', not provoking anyone.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Given the lack of conversation surrounding these characters matches the lack of popularity evidenced on polls matches the minimal role things like Contra/Kunio have in-game... I'd say I'm estimating things pretty accurately.

You know this conversation started by the remark that these characters aren't performing that well on the poll, right? I didn't come and say "I think they wouldn't do well", I'm just explaining why I believe it's not surprising characters like Bill Rizer and Kunio aren't charting well.

And it was already explained to you, that because these polls usually only let you vote for one character, the retro fanbase tends to focus on one character at a time. And right now, that focus is on Hayabusa. Once Hayabusa gets in, that focus will shift. Probably to Bill Rizer and Contra. And only then will you start to see the support.

But you can choose not to believe that if you want. It's not my job to keep you from being wrong.

 

[Wonder Smash]

One, Ryu's popularity didn't originate during Ultimate, that's just when it came back.
Two, no one is calling Ryu Hayabusa an honorary Nintendo character because his whole revival series took place primarily on other platforms.
Three, what I said didn't preclude characters with Nintendo association becoming popular, it's just not on that basis anymore. It's incidental.

Four, tangentially, the general belief is it's likelier Ryu Hayabusa's default is his modern look, so it's not just the NES games people associate him with. In fact, those seem to be more ancillary to most people. Which is part of why his popularity is stronger than the other two.

1. And when it came back, people brought up their love for the NES games, just like they did for Simon and Mega Man.
2. Again, despite his series being modernized, fans still remember the NES series. That's why when you see him brought up in discussions, he's described as one of the last NES icons that's not in Smash so far.
3. At this point, it's too early to tell.
4. Nobody is denying that his modern look would be his default look but that doesn't matter. In the end, it's still the same character, from the same series, no matter what.

Not being against a character and being actively for them aren't the same thing. Lots of people aren't against lots of characters. Doesn't make them popular.

I'm sure most people wouldn't be against any halfway-liked original Zelda character. But only a small handful are actually popular.

It also doesn't mean that they're not interested in them either. Just because they don't vote for them, doesn't mean they don't find them interesting or have some interest in them at all. Adol Christin may not be my MW but I still think he's an interesting character for Smash.

I am aware of that. That's why my c-tier distinction was post-fourth gen, not third. Are you? You've been defining them as NES characters this whole time.

But after the fourth gen Contra petered off. That's far less overall prevalence/success than Mega Man/Castlevania/Dragon Quest/Pac-Man, either in terms of intensity of success during whatever gen (i.e. Pac-Man's arcade game) and/or the span of gens of prevalence/success.

If you really think these characters are in comparable situations, did Mega Man getting popular over Kunio surprise you? Did Pac-Man being popular over Bill/Lance surprise you? You originally implied Contra was next in line for Konami now that we had Castlevania. So it seems you understood how one was in higher regard than the other.

Because that's the era they came from and one that's made the biggest impression for gamers. It's no different from calling Mega Man and Simon NES characters.

It's not all that clear how successful the Contra games were but most of them did get positive reviews and seeing how fans continued to spot its influence on recent games like Cuphead and other indie games, calling it "c-tier" is pretty disrespectful for a series that popularized the run-and-gun genre.

You gotta be more clear when you say getting popular. Do you mean character requests? And yeah, I still think Contra could be next in line for Konami. The only reason I think Bomberman could be in the way is because Bomberman already has content in Smash, as a spirit, assist trophy, and Mii costume (with alternate colors). Like I said before, it's almost like Sakurai and Nintendo are already teasing with the idea to make him playable. Contra so far doesn't have anything like that in Smash outside of possible references.

And look at all the popularity that hasn't caused.

I mean it's kind of a losing game for you to keep trying to argue their Smash popularity when there's literally no proof that backs up your claims and you have to then argue your take carries more weight than all evidence.

Not that polling is a foolproof 1:1, but no character that was actually popular in the fanbase has never shown up prominently on any poll and/or been mostly absent from all serious speculation.

Wait hold on, first you say that the spirit event didn't lead to any popularity but then say that their absence from the poll is also not proof of their lack of popularity?

Must I remind you, I was only referring to one poll anyway, yet you seem to think this means that they're not popular at all. If anything, there doesn't seem to be any proof for your claim.

And as for my claim, I'm not sure exactly what claims you're talking about that I don't have any proof for. Everything I said is true. River City Girls games are a success, more games are being localized, and of course, the series is represented in Smash.

Pal, none of the third-parties get supported primarily based on one system, they get supported based on the character/series. Even the ones with only one (notable) appearance, like Geno, wasn't supported because he came from the SNES. It's because they wanted Geno.

You think people want Lloyd because he came from the GameCube era? You think they want Travis because he came from the Wii era? They want them because they're Lloyd/a Tales rep and Travis Touchdown.

The NES games may be considered the most impactful, but Mega Man was a prominent character from the NES well into seventh gen. He was Capcom's mascot, they still gave him a lot of attention. At that point, "Mega Man" is going to mean more than just "NES character". You said it before. He was seen as an "honorary Nintendo character". Not an "honorary NES character". It's being myopic.

You can tell people view the Mega Man series as more than just NES by the fact that the second most popular character is Zero.

I mean, your belief that people view characters as system reps is being actively disproven by the fact that you don't comprehend how another NES character hasn't taken the place of Simon as the popular one on polls. Which also wasn't why Simon was as popular as he was. Nor Ryu.

Now, Simon is primarily associated with the NES, but he had that level of popularity because people saw him as representing all of Castlevania, and Castlevania prominently continued well past the NES. Again, with Lloyd, people don't support him just because of Tales of Symphonia, they support him because he'd be Tales' representative - and like how Tales is more than the Gamecube, Castlevania is more than the NES. Look at the content in Smash.

Don't try to act like you don't know why Mega Man is seen as an honorary Nintendo character. His series has been mostly on Nintendo consoles, started as far as back as the NES where it debuted. And seeing how Smash Bros is a Nintendo centric game, why would Mega Man be the character people want out of any other character Capcom created? You make the connection.

Nobody said anything about systems rep. As I'm going to remind you again, Nintendo basically ruled the gaming scene during the NES era. Many third party companies got their start on that console back then and as a result, many major series started back then along with Nintendo's own. Just like there was Mario games, Zelda games, Punch-Out!!, and Kid Icarus, there was also Mega Man games, Castlevania games, Ninja Gaiden games, Contra games, and River City/Kunio-kun games. All those games shined together back then and the impact those games made are still seen to this day. This is why they're seen as NES characters because that's basically their roots. That's where it all started, whether its origin or popularity.

You're putting Pit and Hero in the same category as Smash retro characters when that's incorrect.

Spoiler

First of all, Hero isn't a retro character any more than Mario is. Dude has shown up consistently every gen to high success.

Second, comparing first and third-parties is innately flawed because of how the two get in via different ways, which will affect how their popularity forms.

With that, thirdly, there was a retro spot specifically allocated for the first-parties at least in Melee, but thought potentially up until 4 as well, so that is going to bump up the popularity of some retro Nintendo characters as people predict them to take that spot. It's not popularity that formed as it did for the other characters. If there was some spot allocated for a character with a tail, suddenly you'd see a lot of characters will tails start shooting up in popularity.

As for Mac, yeah, of the retro characters he may have been among the more popular, but among all characters he wasn't that popular until he wasn't seen as in consideration for the retro spot anymore. Pit was seen as the retro character for Brawl, and he was revealed right at the beginning, so there really wasn't expectation for another, unless it was the G&W role - which Mac wasn't considered to fill. It was more ROB or Sukapon or Diskun or another weirdo.

Little Mac had some demand, but wasn't among the more popular for Brawl. Also, this isn't relevant to the third-parties, since they never got in this way. People will care about characters being NES reps when there's literally a spot carved out for such a fighter. You notice how popularity on that basis has dried up after people realized it was no longer a thing anymore? There were no popular retro first-parties during Ultimate.

Except I never said that at all. You definitely misread something.

Wait, was Little Mac among the more popular or not? You keep contradicting yourself.

Actually I'll let you answer that on your own:

So... less than you were expecting to the point you were shocked.

I'd rather let you answer your own since you said this:

I don't know what would've lead you to believe anyone of those other than Ryu Hayabusa would have particularly sizeable support, they're not often discussed and scarce on previous polls.

You... realize agreeing it's Ninja Gaiden implicitly weakens the "big volume-wise but not prevalence/visibility-wise" argument, right? It is commenting on River City.

It says nothing about River City. You didn't ask a direct question about it.

No, what fans think is iconic does not get characters into Smash.

Also, this conversation is about popularity because your original post was about their popularity. I know you keep trying to make it about other stuff. I'm saying Contra/Kunio are not particularly popular in the fanbase.

Don't try to spin it. At no point did I say anything about what fans thought. I'm talking about character's actual iconic status.

And fans are not blind. They recognize character's iconic status and when they do, it'll become a key argument in their support for the character.

I'm not speaking for everybody, I'm giving you a situation where it literally has to be one or the other, or both. It can't be neither.

The lack of Kunio support is because they haven't played the game, or they have and they don't want them.

Don't think it hasn't gone unnoticed by you not addressing it that you obviously have played games you don't actively support for Smash, and yet still can't seem to fathom others doing that for these series.

Because that's completely irrelevant to what I was talking about. It has nothing do with not supporting characters from games that you play.

I've already addressed this:

I know Ryu is more popular, that proves my point, since his impact was higher across more generations; he's not just seen as some NES character.

Which is why I'm usually and repeatedly specifying Kunio/Contra in particular as characters without any notable demand.

And which list? SourceGaming? He's on that list, he's #30. Bill Rizer is #274. Kunio is even lower. So I think that helps my point... I mean you're probably going to say it helps yours, but... considering he's seen as much more than a retro character, it doesn't.

Which list are you looking at?

I'm looking at it right now too.

Looks like it's been updated since I last checked. At first, it didn't have any of them on that list and that was my main concern.

Those characters are not as low as I thought. It's good to know they did that good on such a huge list.

You still don't seem to get it. Hayabusa is not seen as just an NES "retro character". He's seen an iconic character from the NES era. That's no different from Mega Man, Simon, and the others that I want. They all may have games across generations just like Hayabusa but it all started in the NES era, which is why they're described as NES characters. And seeing that that's one the reasons why fans want him in Smash (as we seen with Mega Man and Simon), yes, that does help my point.

 

[dream1ng]

Did we ever establish if Vocaloids even count as a gaming thing? Like, no offense, but I feel you'd have an easier time justifying somebody like Geralt or even Slenderman if you REALLY wanna stretch it.

Computer software is closer than a book or a creepypasta

I think it probably doesn't count, but I also don't think it's completely outside of the grey area either. And I do think the other two are outside the grey area and just don't count - even though people seem to disagree about Geralt.

I know the games gained more traction... he still started as a book character.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding me because I agree with half of that. I was saying I expect the next Smash to be "a bigger thing" because each game has been more popular than the last. Like, Ult was bigger than 4 which was bigger than Brawl which was bigger than Melee, you get the idea.

That is... sort of true, but also not really true. Keep in mind 4 released on two systems.

Since the next Smash will presumably only release on one system, a better metric is the total install base of each system. Because then you have Ultimate > Brawl > 3DS > Melee > Wii U, which is true to their audience size. There's also the 64, but as a new IP released closer to the end of the system... it's a little different.

So... I actually don't think the next Smash will be bigger than Ultimate unless the next system is bigger than Switch. Which will be a very difficult task to accomplish.

Not like, that I think Smash 4 was small. Smash's nature as a crossover gives it enough exposure that a sequel is basically always go to get insane amounts of sustained attention. Well, unless they do something like cut half the cast, in which case perhaps not lol.

And that indeed may happen.

Although, when it comes to the precautions thing I disagree. You're right that Smash 4 was absolutely big enough that they should've had them, but this is Nintendo. For better or worse they're always like five billion years behind the times. Maybe they had something back then but I wouldn't bet on anything stronger than "it blocks the same IP from having multiple votes counted". I'm kinda just assuming nobody dropped real money on some sketchy website and bam, suddenly there's 3,000 unique IPs voting for Giant Breadbug. For all we know that could've happened back then lol

That makes sense and indeed could be true, but I also think that if that userbase size didn't prompt them to ensure better countermeasures, this one may very well not provide a threshold sufficient to prompt it either.

I mean, hopefully it does, I suppose, but also... last time, they either didn't provide adequate countermeasures and it wasn't a problem because... all the characters we received make sense as being the popular ones. Or they did provide them, and they would again next time too. So whatever the status quo is, I'm skeptical it'll really change. Unless they did notice enough suspicious behavior last time and had to discount votes more manually.

I definitely think there's a healthy medium between a laundry list of requirements necessary for Third Parties to enter Smash of the pre-Smash 4 DLC era and the idea that anyone that isn't a big-name Third Party is a bad choice of the Fighter's Pass 2 era though.

It's true that there were a lot of dumb fanbase-imposed restrictions earlier with the third-parties, though I do think the difference between those and the belief in Nintendo association was that pretty much everyone ascribed to the latter, while the consensus on some of the other stuff (like being able to get multiple characters from the same company) was never unified. I guess it was the difference between a genuine fan rule and just a contentious talking point.

That's why there was so much ridicule around suggestions like Cloud, and fighters like Dante or Crash never would've been able to take off. But on the other hand, it's not like Mega Man precluded the popularity of Phoenix or Pac-Man Lloyd.

But on the other hand, I don't think the ethos was that different during the latter part of the DLC, I think there were just so many deconfirmations at that point, what was left kind of bifurcated into the few remaining big names, and characters who genuinely weren't very likely but were otherwise basically the best of what was left. I don't know which characters you have in mind as those that would've been embraced earlier in the cycle but now were being derided, excluding deconfirmed choices. If anything, Sephiroth seemed to put more characters on the table that would've been looked past beforehand.

Like, right at the end it was "anyone who isn't a big name is a bad choice" but just on the basis of reaction to the final character.

It's not that discussion wasn't dominated by the bigger characters, either in terms of prevalence or popularity, but I don't see that as being particularly new, Smash-wise. The main difference is the Nintendo association was pretty dead, so many characters we discussed were different than pre-DLC.

A lot of characters from big-name franchises would be very cool, but I also like a lot of Nintendo characters, supporting characters from Third Party series already in Smash, and smaller Third Parties that really got shouted down by the crowd during Fighter's Pass 2's speculation.

Well the first three will obviously be discussed going forward - and you can talk about smaller characters, but if people don't envision a good enough reason to expect them, they're unlikely to make a foothold. That's not new either. Much of this is just a repeat of how things used to go with the first-parties.

It also makes speculation a lot more exciting. You can only have so many discussions about Crash, Master Chief, Doom Marine, and Dante before things get dry. Capcom discussions in particular are a lot more interesting now that there are about eight names that could realistically get in Smash instead of just being constant debates of Dante vs. Phoenix Wright. A lot of this came down to many Capcom characters getting deconfirmed during the DLC era like X, Zero, the Resident Evil cast, and Monster Hunter, but you know things were getting bad when Vergil was getting serious discussion because the community had simultaneously retread the Dante discussion countless times and limited themselves to which series could be seriously discussed.

I think this is more emblematic of things simply resetting than anything else. When very few characters are deconfirmed, there's always more to talk about, but eventually we'll end up at a pretty similar point, even if not with the same characters as the time before.

 

[DarthEnderX]

fans still remember the NES series

Goddamn birds...

 

[dream1ng]

And it was already explained to you, that because these polls usually only let you vote for one character, the retro fanbase tends to focus on one character at a time. And right now, that focus is on Hayabusa. Once Hayabusa gets in, that focus will shift. Probably to Bill Rizer and Contra. And only then will you start to see the support.

Oh please, you guys don't move as a monolith. If you did, Bill Rizer wouldn't be 274th. You know why? Because you can vote for three characters on this ballot. If number one (which is worth three votes) was Hayabusa and number two (which is worth two) was Rizer, he would have more than FOUR votes.

Out of curiosity, I checked some other past polls as well. SourceGaming's previous one let you vote for SIX characters, and most of the big reddit ones let you vote for between three to five.

Four votes here means either one person put him 1 and another 3, two people put him at two, or four people put him at three. So the most number of people who could've voted for him is FOUR. And the most number of people who could have put him second behind Hayabusa is TWO.

And if you guys are focusing on only one character at a time, and now you're focusing on Hayabusa, people who aren't even part of the retro fanbase have caused Bomberman to become more popular than Ryu is. At least on this ballot. So... did the council of old approve skipping him? Why? Clearly that's not your normal strategy. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to all unify behind a single character? If Bomberman is more popular, go to him.

And how do you feel that without a unified retro fanbase, he managed to beat the retro character you guys were focusing your efforts on? Kinda makes them seem a little... trifling. Oh and also Goemon, Rygar and Carmen ****ing Sandiego are between Ryu and Bill Rizer on this poll right now. As well as about seven retro first-parties. Is the retro fanbase aware of this? Your order seems out of order.

Is it that you just haven't started the push for Contra yet, despite having two more spots to burn here, and upwards of five on other polls? I mean, why help the next character get the jump on popularity, right? And Kunio is even lower than this. If he isn't even the backup to the current focus who isn't even as popular as a totally different NES-era character, why am I being told how popular that character is by the other guy?

Idk, sounds like you might want to focus your focus.

But you can choose not to believe that if you want. It's not my job to keep you from being wrong.

Right, if needed that would presumably fall to someone who is actually correct.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Are you people still arguing about this? My god let it go already

 

[RodNutTakin]

Are you people still arguing about this? My god let it go already

Yeah, part of the reason why I was trying to shift the subject onto Gradius/Parodius a bit above.

 

[UberPyro64]

I'm bored, let's do a scenario. Ultimate Deluxe happens on Switch 2. Ultimate Deluxe's main improvements are that it has improved visuals and online play, including rollback netcode. As well as new characters. stages, music, and spirits. All newcomers will have Spirit Boards. also, you can transfer your save data from Ultimate. This is the newcomer selection:

Those highlighted in green are in the base game. Those highlighted in red are the DLC. The Pokemon that you get with the Hisui Pokemon Trainer are Cyndaquil, Dewott, and Hisui Decidueye. Yes, Waluigi and Bomberman are promoted from Assist Trophies.

How would you feel about this scenario?

 

[osby]

I'm bored, let's do a scenario. Ultimate Deluxe happens on Switch 2. Ultimate Deluxe's main improvements are that it has improved visuals and online play, including rollback netcode. As well as new characters. stages, music, and spirits. All newcomers will have Spirit Boards. also, you can transfer your save data from Ultimate. This is the newcomer selection:



Those highlighted in green are in the base game. Those highlighted in red are the DLC. The Pokemon that you get with the Hisui Pokemon Trainer are Cyndaquil, Dewott, and Hisui Decidueye. Yes, Waluigi and Bomberman are promoted from Assist Trophies.

How would you feel about this scenario?

I'm not really impressed by our Pokemon character rehashing an existing gimmick while also making up 1/3 of the base newcomer roster but Bomberman and Ring Fit Trainee are cool.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm bored, let's do a scenario. Ultimate Deluxe happens on Switch 2. Ultimate Deluxe's main improvements are that it has improved visuals and online play, including rollback netcode. As well as new characters. stages, music, and spirits. All newcomers will have Spirit Boards. also, you can transfer your save data from Ultimate. This is the newcomer selection:



Those highlighted in green are in the base game. Those highlighted in red are the DLC. The Pokemon that you get with the Hisui Pokemon Trainer are Cyndaquil, Dewott, and Hisui Decidueye. Yes, Waluigi and Bomberman are promoted from Assist Trophies.

How would you feel about this scenario?

I like most of the newcomers. The Hisui Trainer seems a little forced even if I'd like it, and I'm still not keen on a League of Legends character. I'm also against adding a brand new IP before we know anything about it.

But the rest of this roster looks like solid additions.

 

[UberPyro64]

I like most of the newcomers. The Hisui Trainer seems a little forced even if I'd like it, and I'm still not keen on a League of Legends character. I'm also against adding a brand new IP before we know anything about it.

But the rest of this roster looks like solid additions.

I like the idea of a Pokemon Trainer with starters from multiple generations, and Hisui Trainer could do that while having a more active role in the fight. Even if only visually (rolling away when an attack is too close), though maybe they can throw balls at the enemies to stun them occasionally. It's not a realistic pick by any means. Could probably replace them with something like Tinkaton.
On the Monolith character, I just wanted one Nintendo character as DLC, but it's hard because I imagine they're likely a character we don't know exists yet, which I imagine they would be. Regardless of being a new IP or not.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Oh please, you guys don't move as a monolith.

Incorrect. We are all connected as one. Our souls vibrate on the same wavelength, and we all raise our hands together to send Hayabusa our energy, as we did Simon before him, and Mega Man before him...

Right, if needed that would presumably fall to someone who is actually correct.

You have chosen your path. I will leave you to ignorance...

 

[dream1ng]

Are you people still arguing about this? My god let it go already

Incorrect. We are all connected as one. Our souls vibrate on the same wavelength, and we all raise our hands together to send Hayabusa our energy, as we did Simon before him, and Mega Man before him...

You guys should have a word with the Bomberman vestige of your hivemind then because he's been there siphoning support from the retro fanbase for literally all three of those.

You have chosen your path. I will leave you to ignorance...

Well when ad hominem is all that's left, it's just me and the other guy I guess

 

[RodNutTakin]

This talk about old series and all is making me want to seriously discuss the likelihood of one of my current most wanteds, that being Tako from Parodius.
My reasoning for the character has hinged on two main points; the popularity and legacy of the greater Gradius franchise especially in Japan, and the impracticality of making the Vic Viper a fighter.
Gradius is probably the one cornerstone of Konami's own IPs behind Metal Gear. It's gotten a fat load of games under its belt up to the Wii generation, lots of ports and re-releases, and that number only widens when you include things like Salamander, Parodius and Otomedius. The series made horizontal shooters the hip new thing for years to come when the series started rolling the ball in the late 80s--I'd argue the Galactic Nova segment in Kirby Super Star is a testament to how far its influence reached in video games. Not to mention all the other horizontal shooters Konami also did afterwards like Thunder Cross and Axelay. It's definitely considered a quintessential franchise in Japan, it had a good presence in Europe, and even in the US where most of the games were Japan or rerelease-only, the NES versions of the first game and Life Force are still considered to be staple classics for that system. I feel like it would make sense for it to be the next Konami IP represented that isn't something they hijacked acquired from Hudson Soft.

Though there's one glaring obstacle for playable representation, and that's the fact that the Vic Viper is ill-suited to be a proper fighter, being a flying ship incapable of grounded combat in its home series. While a lot of weird fighters have gotten in Smash, I feel that this would be a case where it'd be more trouble than it's worth to try and animate the Vic Viper as a fighter without no longer feeling like the ship at all--even in Parodius, the ship is still depicted as limbless in gameplay despite being sentient in this series.

But Parodius is also the solution to this problem, fittingly enough, because of its own mascot, the aforementioned Tako.
Parodius pretty much took over the main Gradius series for most of the 90s after its MSX debut, and to date, four of the five main games released for the series have seen Nintendo versions--Da, Gokujou, and Jikkyou Oshaberi all had Super Famicom versions, the third actually being the debut platform for the game prior to its enhanced PS1 and Saturn release, and the original MSX Parodius has been rereleased for the Wii and Wii U's Japanese Virtual Console services.
Tako, the headband-wearing cartoony octopus and main mascot of the MSX game and Da, uses one of the Vic Viper's weapon loadouts from Gradius II, and this loadout is inherited for the octopi that replace him in succeeding games, his sons Takosuke and Takohiko. And it is this trait that makes them, in my eyes, a fitting fighter substitute for the Vic Viper ship in Smash; being an animate, cartoony octopus means that they can be translated to a fighting role much easier than the stiff Vic Viper ship--not only can you have Tako make use of his Parodius weaponry for attacks (the Tail Gun, Ripple Laser, 2-Way Missiles, Options along with some of the Bell powerups in Parodius), but he'd be able to be easily animated moving, jumping, and fighting like any other character without it feeling like you're playing someone completely different.

The only thing is, I'm not sure, especially from a Japanese fanbase standpoint, if anyone else understands my viewpoint as well in regards to all of this. I've got no measurements on how many people in Japan have said or thought "Please put Gradius content in Smash", but even if they have, I doubt many of them would see how it could work the way I do, much like how most people expected Heihachi as the Tekken character when Kazuya ended up being much easier to translate into Smash because of his Devil form making it easier to visualize him being able to fight in the air.

A quick anecdote/flub on my part real quick, I failed to mention that Parodius Da also saw Famicom and Game Boy ports, along with it and its follow-up getting official European releases.
Still willing to debate this subject, been a while since I really had to put my nose to the grindstone here with speculating.

 

[fogbadge]

Morning all. What are we arguing about today?

 

[Perkilator]

I'm bored, let's do a scenario. Ultimate Deluxe happens on Switch 2. Ultimate Deluxe's main improvements are that it has improved visuals and online play, including rollback netcode. As well as new characters. stages, music, and spirits. All newcomers will have Spirit Boards. also, you can transfer your save data from Ultimate. This is the newcomer selection:



Those highlighted in green are in the base game. Those highlighted in red are the DLC. The Pokemon that you get with the Hisui Pokemon Trainer are Cyndaquil, Dewott, and Hisui Decidueye. Yes, Waluigi and Bomberman are promoted from Assist Trophies.

How would you feel about this scenario?

1. Ring Fit and Crash are based picks
2. I’ve been meaning to ask something about Leon. How would you guys feel if he was the M-rated rep of Brawl instead of Snake? This isn’t me advocating to replace Snake, I just wanted to discuss the idea.

 

[Opossum]

And it was already explained to you, that because these polls usually only let you vote for one character, the retro fanbase tends to focus on one character at a time. And right now, that focus is on Hayabusa. Once Hayabusa gets in, that focus will shift. Probably to Bill Rizer and Contra. And only then will you start to see the support.

But you can choose not to believe that if you want. It's not my job to keep you from being wrong.

There's actually a really good example that illustrates this, and it comes from Fire Emblem Heroes' Choose Your Legends events.

Eliwood is a character from FE7, The Blazing Blade. Smash fans may know him as Roy's Dad. He shares his story with two other lords, Lyn and Hector. They are much more popular than he is. By a long shot. Like, usually when it comes to Favorite Lord polls, Eliwood ranks toward the bottom, alongside some of the Japan-only lords (understandably) and Male Corrin (lol).

In the first Choose Your Legends event, Lyn was one of the winners, Hector got third place on the male side. Eliwood got 36th place, making him (I think) the lowest placing international lord at the time.

But because Lyn wasn't eligible next time, those votes had to go somewhere. Hector ended up winning CYL2, which wasn't very surprising given his showing in the first round. Eliwood moved up to 28th place, a slight increase in placement.

Then CYL3 came. Lyn and Hector were both ineligible. Eliwood rocketed to fourth place over all, and second place for male characters, securing a spot on the podium ahead of a lot of more objectively popular lords like Marth and Chrom (who had consistently performed better than him in all years but this one and have longstanding fandom popularity).

Because that's the thing. Eliwood isn't the most popular lord on his own, but fans of FE7, fans of Lyn, and fans of Hector rallied behind him because while he wasn't their favorite individually, they really loved the group dynamic of that trio. And Lyn and Hector's votes had to go somewhere, allowing for Eliwood to punch above his weight.

So yeah, lines of succession like this in voting are very much a thing, even in cases where you get multiple votes. It's a very well-documented sort of phenomenon. Hell, that actually may be why Dark Samus did as well as she did on the ballot: in addition to her own popularity, a lot of people likely saw Ridley as no longer being on the table.

 

[Sucumbio]

I’ve been meaning to ask something about Leon. How would you guys feel if he was the M-rated rep of Brawl instead of Snake? This isn’t me advocating to replace Snake, I just wanted to discuss the idea.

I'd have been okay with it... RE4 on GameCube is one of the best games of all time.

 

[Gengar84]

Incorrect. We are all connected as one. Our souls vibrate on the same wavelength, and we all raise our hands together to send Hayabusa our energy, as we did Simon before him, and Mega Man before him...

You have chosen your path. I will leave you to ignorance...

I think Ryu Hyabusa would be cool and I’d be happy to see him make it into Smash but there are plenty of characters originating in the NES and SNES eras I’d prefer to see first. I’ve brought them up on more than one occasion but some of my most wanted characters from those eras are the Battletoads, Magus, Fulgore, Sub-Zero, Zero, Bill Rizer, Knuckles, Goomba, and Dixie Kong. I think my lack of excitement for Ryu Hyabusa just comes down to the fact that I’ve never played a Ninja Gaiden game. Still, I’ll never say no to a cool ninja character joining the roster.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There's actually a really good example that illustrates this, and it comes from Fire Emblem Heroes' Choose Your Legends events.

Eliwood is a character from FE7, The Blazing Blade. Smash fans may know him as Roy's Dad. He shares his story with two other lords, Lyn and Hector. They are much more popular than he is. By a long shot. Like, usually when it comes to Favorite Lord polls, Eliwood ranks toward the bottom, alongside some of the Japan-only lords (understandably) and Male Corrin (lol).

In the first Choose Your Legends event, Lyn was one of the winners, Hector got third place on the male side. Eliwood got 36th place, making him (I think) the lowest placing international lord at the time.

But because Lyn wasn't eligible next time, those votes had to go somewhere. Hector ended up winning CYL2, which wasn't very surprising given his showing in the first round. Eliwood moved up to 28th place, a slight increase in placement.

Then CYL3 came. Lyn and Hector were both ineligible. Eliwood rocketed to fourth place over all, and second place for male characters, securing a spot on the podium ahead of a lot of more objectively popular lords like Marth and Chrom (who had consistently performed better than him in all years but this one and have longstanding fandom popularity).

Because that's the thing. Eliwood isn't the most popular lord on his own, but fans of FE7, fans of Lyn, and fans of Hector rallied behind him because while he wasn't their favorite individually, they really loved the group dynamic of that trio. And Lyn and Hector's votes had to go somewhere, allowing for Eliwood to punch above his weight.

So yeah, lines of succession like this in voting are very much a thing, even in cases where you get multiple votes. It's a very well-documented sort of phenomenon. Hell, that actually may be why Dark Samus did as well as she did on the ballot: in addition to her own popularity, a lot of people likely saw Ridley as no longer being on the table.

This CYL example can also show people how popularity in general works. People like more than their favorite.

Sure the FE7 fans in this example may have liked Lyn the most, but that didn't mean they disliked Hector or Ellwood. They still liked them quite a bit. Just because Ellwood wasn't the favorite doesn't mean they didn't love and value him. Popularity isn't a binary thing. People like things that aren't their favorite.

To put this into another perspective, let's look at Toad. Using common sense tells us Toad is a popular character. He's a Mario character. He makes frequent appearances. He's in several memes. But there's a false understanding that people don't like Toad. He's not many people's favorites. It's easy to see people love Yoshi, Luigi or Rosalina because they're a lot of people's favorites. But that doesn't mean people don't like Toad. It's just hard to seem popular when you're people's fifth or sixth favorite.



I will say that lumping retro gamers like this isn't going to work though. You're not looking at one group of people, you're looking at several. I think "retro gamers" as a group is a bit too broad and won't show the phenomenon very well.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Speaking of Spirit Boards, has anyone here posted their ideas on the spirit battles topic here on this site? I made about some for about 6 different series myself (Ninja Gaiden, River City, Double Dragon, Doom, Virtua Fighter, and Mortal Kombat).

Spirit Battles are a fun feature. I kind of do hope they bring that back in the next Smash game.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Microsoft has won the FTC court case to buy Activision Blizzard. pic.twitter.com/iQJzCTqmA3

— DiscussingFilm (@DiscussingFilm) July 11, 2023

The buyout got approved.

 

[Perkilator]

Microsoft has won the FTC court case to buy Activision Blizzard. pic.twitter.com/iQJzCTqmA3

— DiscussingFilm (@DiscussingFilm) July 11, 2023

The buyout got approved.

Now hopefully they’ll allow ActiBlizz the company to start from a clean slate without Bobby Kotick or any of his goons.

 

[Gengar84]

Now hopefully they’ll allow ActiBlizz the company to start from a clean slate without Bobby Kotick or any of his goons.

I totally agree. Blizzard has so many great and iconic properties and was unable to realize their potential due to horrible management who abused and mistreated their employees among other things. I’m hopeful this will all be addressed under Microsoft’s leadership.

If Microsoft is able to steer the company in a better direction, would anyone here be more open to seeing a character from one of their games in Smash? I know Crash is pretty popular on the Activision side but I’d be most excited for a character from either WarCraft or StarCraft. My top picks are Illidan and Sarah Kerrigan but you can’t really go wrong with any of them. Diablo would be another fun option. I never really got into Overwatch so I wouldn’t be as hyped for Tracer but I’m not really opposed.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I'm bored, let's do a scenario. Ultimate Deluxe happens on Switch 2. Ultimate Deluxe's main improvements are that it has improved visuals and online play, including rollback netcode. As well as new characters. stages, music, and spirits. All newcomers will have Spirit Boards. also, you can transfer your save data from Ultimate. This is the newcomer selection:



Those highlighted in green are in the base game. Those highlighted in red are the DLC. The Pokemon that you get with the Hisui Pokemon Trainer are Cyndaquil, Dewott, and Hisui Decidueye. Yes, Waluigi and Bomberman are promoted from Assist Trophies.

How would you feel about this scenario?

0/10 no Jinx no buy (tho fr if we did get a league rep I’d bet on her)

On the real, decent roster for a pure deluxe port. Only real gap I see is the lack of a XB3 character.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Microsoft has won the FTC court case to buy Activision Blizzard. pic.twitter.com/iQJzCTqmA3

— DiscussingFilm (@DiscussingFilm) July 11, 2023

The buyout got approved.

FINALLY! Now we can move on from all that drama, and hope this is the end of Bobby Kotick.

Anyway, here me out: Crash AND Spyro getting into Smash. Remember how they constantly crossover? Well, we use that as a way to Trojan Horse Spyro a playable spot in Smash alongside Crash. It's foolproof!

What? Somebody had to be the guy to bring Smash into this...

 

[TCT~Phantom]

FINALLY! Now we can move on from all that drama, and hope this is the end of Bobby Kotick.

Anyway, here me out: Crash AND Spyro getting into Smash. Remember how they constantly crossover? Well, we use that as a way to Trojan Horse Spyro a playable spot in Smash alongside Crash. It's foolproof!

What? Somebody had to be the guy to bring Smash into this...

Spyro is my dream never ever, and I would be over the moon for Crash. I see this as an absolute win.

 

[Gengar84]

0/10 no Jinx no buy (tho fr if we did get a league rep I’d bet on her)

On the real, decent roster for a pure deluxe port. Only real gap I see is the lack of a XB3 character.

I think Vi was my favorite character in Arcane but Jinx was great too. Arcane is my introduction into LoL and most of my knowledge comes from there. I did play a bit of Runetera and about 25 hours of Ruined King on Switch because I enjoyed Arcane so much so I know a little beyond just Arcane. After looking at images of the whole roster, I feel similarly about LoL as I do in Blizzard’s games where there are so many cool options you can’t really go wrong.

 

[SPEN18]

So what we're saying is that once Isaac gets in, the legacy GBA crowd will shift onto Andy and Lyn?

Really, though, just blindly following a common sense line of thinking, it seems reasonable that the removal of certain top vote-getters from a candidate pool could give a serious boost to a previously low-ranked character who appeals to a similar demographic. The caveat, however, is that it may often be difficult to predict this phenomenon beforehand, and it risks devolving into guesswork. The vast majority of voters would indeed choose to vote for their second choice if their first wasn't available, but it shouldn't be assumed without further analysis that said second choices would line up enough to produce a noticeable boost for another candidate.

In the CYL example, I don't think Lyn and Hector doing well on CYL1 would have been enough to conclude that people simply like all FE7 characters or that Eliwood was likely the second or third choice for all those Lyn and Hector voters. It would have been reasonable to think that Eliwood would probably get a boost from the removal of Lyn and Hector from consideration, since he appeals to the common demographic of "FE7 fans." But it would have been difficult or at least uncertain to predict the extent of his rise. Especially in the presence of other FE7 options who could also take bulks of the spare votes.
Though the analogy here isn't 1:1 with the other discussion, since Eliwood was still a top-20 male choice on a poll with hundreds of candidates in CYLs 1-2. Which would make a spike in popularity more plausible, as he was already known to be in the upper-mid tier of popularity that can snowball under favorable conditions. It wouldn't be the same if Eliwood was like at bottom-tier popularity in CYLs 1-2.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I totally agree. Blizzard has so many great and iconic properties and was unable to realize their potential due to horrible management who abused and mistreated their employees among other things. I’m hopeful this will all be addressed under Microsoft’s leadership.

If Microsoft is able to steer the company in a better direction, would anyone here be more open to seeing a character from one of their games in Smash? I know Crash is pretty popular on the Activision side but I’d be most excited for a character from either WarCraft or StarCraft. My top picks are Illidan and Sarah Kerrigan but you can’t really go wrong with any of them. Diablo would be another fun option. I never really got into Overwatch so I wouldn’t be as hyped for Tracer but I’m not really opposed.

Honestly, if Overwatch gets a rep, I highly doubt it'll be Tracer. They have a "every character is the protagonist of their story" kind of mentality, and there's one character who is overwhelmingly the most popular: D.va.


And I'm not just saying that because she's my main either. When going by character with the most universal playtime per season, D.va usually ranks #1 or close to it. She's always competitively viable, people love her as a character, and she's relevant to the story of Overwatch now, and all these contribute to why she gets a hefty majority of the merch.

Plus, we need more mech fighters in Smash. And the girl in a mech trope is popular for a reason.