Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Garteam]

One thing that might affect a second Smash Ballot is a change in the perception of the kind of relationship that ideal Smash characters have with the core Smash fanbase. Back in 2015, when the Ballot was announced early into Smash 4's DLC, characters that were thought to best appeal to the tastes of those already playing Smash were ideal, like your cut veterans, K. Rools, Banjos, Isaacs, etc. I imagine this led to a lot of the ballot being concentrated, with big names getting a ton of support and characters that were thrown around a lot getting less support.

However, starting in the Ultimate DLC era, there was a shift that characters that didn't appeal to the tastes of long-time Smash die-hards and instead brought new fans to the series were ideal, like Doom Slayer, Dante, and Master Chief probably being the biggest examples of this trend. This trend has reversed a little bit with the change back to base game speculation, as people aren't nearly as dismissive of the idea of Nintendo characters generally and people thankfully recognize that dismissing cartoony characters as Scrimblos is stupid for the exact same reason dismissing JRPG characters as anime swordfighters is. However, the fanbase is still a lot more open and generally less decentralized than it probably has ever been, especially relative to the state speculation in the latter half of Fighter's Pass 2. There likely wouldn't be as big of a gap between the top and bottom of the ballot and a lot more characters that could do well enough to be serious contenders to be included.

 

[jamesster445]

What Switch-era characters would you like to see in the next Smash? For me:

• Ring Fit Trainee
• Noah & Mio
• Raven Beak

Ring Fit Trainee or Dragaux
Officer Howard
Noah & Mio or Matthew
Euden?
Octoling?
and Sifetched just cause he's a chad.

 

[HyperSomari64]

What Switch-era characters would you like to see in the next Smash? For me:

• Ring Fit Trainee
• Noah & Mio
• Raven Beak

Bomberman and (am i not kidding) a Tetromino/Tetris Block counts as Switch-era reps?

 

[Wonder Smash]

I mean, the stuff you want is kinda in the "Retro/niche" category, most people who know these characters wouldnt really participate in these sorts of polls or typically live in asian countries.

I can relate tbh. The that's the same problem most of Bandai Namco's IP's suffer from, probably why we only have Pacman and Tekken in playable roles in smash, since everyone worldwide knows what those are.

Maybe it would be different in Japan. Kunio-kun is really popular over there, so maybe Japanese fans make up for a lot of votes if an official poll was made.

But that's kind of why I said that I want to raise the idea for characters like to be in Smash.

 

[cashregister9]

Updated my signature for the first time since the time of Sora's release.

The left side is the characters I want to return in the next smash game whatever it may be, and also just a general mains list. The right side is my most wanted characters for the next game.

 

[Zerp]

I feel pretty confident that if we got a modern official Smash poll it'd end up very artificial. Like, people would totally pay to astroturf it into oblivion. It's not like Nintendo will have good cybersecurity for it. And you know there's people immature enough to spend thousands on boosting characters. With how explosive the last speculation cycle was I can even see crowdfunds for "astroturf xyz" blowing up lol.

 

[fogbadge]

I feel pretty confident that if we got a modern official Smash poll it'd end up very artificial. Like, people would totally pay to astroturf it into oblivion. It's not like Nintendo will have good cybersecurity for it. And you know there's people immature enough to spend thousands on boosting characters. With how explosive the last speculation cycle was I can even see crowdfunds for "astroturf xyz" blowing up lol.

What was stopping them from doing it last time?

 

[Zerp]

What was stopping them from doing it last time?

Nothing but that time period was also less crazy than now would be. I'm sure some people did it but like, I'd expect it to be a much bigger thing now. Smash just keeps getting more and more attention each game, and all it really takes is a couple rich kids to make it snowball. Like, if people see "Oh xyz is bragging about astroturfing abc" they'll be more inclined to do it too. Especially if people see their most wanted's direct competition getting boosted or what not.

 

[fogbadge]

Nothing but that time period was also less crazy than now would be. I'm sure some people did it but like, I'd expect it to be a much bigger thing now. Smash just keeps getting more and more attention each game, and all it really takes is a couple rich kids to make it snowball. Like, if people see "Oh xyz is bragging about astroturfing abc" they'll be more inclined to do it too. Especially if people see their most wanted's direct competition getting boosted or what not.

that’s a troubling thought

 

[dream1ng]

With many fans' love for classic NES era characters and after Konami's two other big series being represented, I don't see why support for Contra (another major Konami series from that same era) wouldn't be next.

That's not really how it works though. Getting characters from a company/era doesn't automatically beget notable popularity onto another from that company/era, because the basis of support isn't those things, it's the character/series itself. People who have affinity for one series from a company aren't necessarily going to have it for some completely different one. People who played a series from a certain time period haven't necessarily played another.

The conveyor belt of "x company rep" won't gain much traction if the next in line isn't seen as likely. Look at Konami after base.

And btw, the next in line popularity-wise from Konami is Bomberman. Possibly Alucard.

It's not an unknown in gaming and in fact, it's influence in still noticeable to this day (such as in games like Cuphead).

1) Not being unknown is not all it takes to be popularly requested. Some series are huge and (mostly) current and still just didn't get much traction in the fanbase, like Tomb Raider, Dark Souls, Assassin's Creed, and basically anything under Take-Two.
2) Ultima was influential to later RPGs, doesn't mean it's gonna be popularly requested. Virtua Fighter was influential to Tekken. DotA was influential to LoL. Onimusha was influential on Devil May Cry. The state of the series and the characters therein are bigger popularity influences.

But see, that goes right back to what I said about many fans' love for classic NES era characters and by now, more people would not only know about River City Ransom but the other games in the Kunio-kun series. Also, because of the recent games, the series recognition outside of Japan has grown over the years.

But why would you think there were such a great number of people who aren't going to look past gaming from nearly seven generations ago? Not only do most fans not compartmentalize like that, but so much of the fanbase didn't grow up in that generation. So past not looking at inclusions on rigid, console-based terms, that wouldn't even be the time period that resonated most to much of the fanbase.

Moreover, we already have a lot of characters from that era, so a lot of the big franchises are already represented when compared to franchises from later eras. Especially post-2000, where there are fewer third-party IP than there have been console generations.

However, my main problem isn't just the series recognition. It's that when people talk "video game history" or "iconic status", River City is kind of loaded with that. It didn't just pioneer the beat'em up genre but it also 4-player fighting games (it was the first to feature that). So if people decide a series should get in based things like that, then that's something that definitely shouldn't be overlooked since it predated what Smash started as (and still primarily is).

That's not why characters become highly popular, though. They get popular because either they're big names, represent a big series, or, less commonly, the fanbase just seems to like them and it snowballs. Or their popularity is grandfathered from an earlier Smash era, when things like Nintendo association was considered more important.

If people can extol Geno's role in "video game history", they can do it for any character.

Most just support them because they like that series/character and see them as plausible (i.e. big/requested) enough to warrant the active support.

That depends on the person and the characters they already want.

It's still not automatically going to make them want that character. It might make them want them, but playing a game doesn't inherently make you support a character. So saying "haven't they played x" is only worth so much. I've played all of those series you mentioned. Those characters still aren't on my list.

What it did do for me was make me a supporter for Kunio and Riki and made me want to experience more of their games. Soon, I learned more about the history of the series and I pretty much did put Billy and Jimmy aside for a long time as I focused on them.

Great. But unless every game series you've played has lead you to actively pushing for that character for Smash, you're in the exact same position as everyone else: played a number of games, but has their select few characters they support more than others.

There's nothing in this play game -> want character situation that wouldn't equally apply to any number of other series. And it's why you're generally going to see series with bigger and/or more recent impact than Contra/Kunio, like Crash, Halo, DMC, Monster Hunter, Doom, Resident Evil, etc become the ones with increased popularity over the last several years.

 

[Garteam]

There's nothing in this play game -> want character situation that wouldn't equally apply to any number of other series. And it's why you're generally going to see series with bigger and/or more recent impact than Contra/Kunio, like Crash, Halo, DMC, Monster Hunter, Doom, Resident Evil, etc become the ones with increased popularity over the last several years.

Speculation devolves entirely into people saying "Third Party series has big sales number, therefore main man must Smash"

Fighter's Pass 2 speculation and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

 

[Wonder Smash]

That's not really how it works though. Getting characters from a company/era doesn't automatically beget notable popularity onto another from that company/era, because the basis of support isn't those things, it's the character/series itself. People who have affinity for one series from a company aren't necessarily going to have it for some completely different one. People who played a series from a certain time period haven't necessarily played another.

The conveyor belt of "x company rep" won't gain much traction if the next in line isn't seen as likely. Look at Konami after base.

And btw, the next in line popularity-wise from Konami is Bomberman. Possibly Alucard.

They don't have to be played by the same people (even though they can and have). The point is, fans have had the same kind of experience with those games during that same era and even the one after that. It's one of the main reasons why Mega Man and Simon were wanted in Smash. They were seen as honorary Nintendo characters. Bill and Lance, due to their own series popularity on the Nintendo consoles, are seen the same way.

Of course, I admit that they have an uphill battle with Bomberman but that still doesn't mean it can't get enough support.

1) Not being unknown is not all it takes to be popularly requested. Some series are huge and (mostly) current and still just didn't get much traction in the fanbase, like Tomb Raider, Dark Souls, Assassin's Creed, and basically anything under Take-Two.
2) Ultima was influential to later RPGs, doesn't mean it's gonna be popularly requested. Virtua Fighter was influential to Tekken. DotA was influential to LoL. Onimusha was influential on Devil May Cry. The state of the series and the characters therein are bigger popularity influences.

I...never said that but I'm also not going to act like Contra is just some "c-tier" series either and its leads are not that compelling. Bill and Lance would easily stand out in the Smash Bros roster for obvious reasons.

But why would you think there were such a great number of people who aren't going to look past gaming from nearly seven generations ago? Not only do most fans not compartmentalize like that, but so much of the fanbase didn't grow up in that generation. So past not looking at inclusions on rigid, console-based terms, that wouldn't even be the time period that resonated most to much of the fanbase.

Moreover, we already have a lot of characters from that era, so a lot of the big franchises are already represented when compared to franchises from later eras. Especially post-2000, where there are fewer third-party IP than there have been console generations.

I never said they won't look at the generations after that. What I am saying is that that's been one of the primary reasons why people wanted Mega Man and Simon, partially the reason why fans wanted Hero and Pac-Man, and it's now one of the reasons why they want Ryu Hayabusa. And it didn't just start with them. Prior to them, Little Mac and Pit were the top most wanted retro characters for Smash. Fans have always been very vocal about it too. Nintendo pretty much ruled the video game era back in the 80s, so the NES era has always been seen as something special.

However, even if they do look past that generation and look at the more recent ones, there's a good chance they'll still end up looking up games from those franchises, whether it's Ninja Gaiden, River City/Kunio Kun, or Double Dragon because those series have still been active in the later generations and continued to gained some attention from newer fans.

That's not why characters become highly popular, though. They get popular because either they're big names, represent a big series, or, less commonly, the fanbase just seems to like them and it snowballs. Or their popularity is grandfathered from an earlier Smash era, when things like Nintendo association was considered more important.

Which fits Kunio and Riki because River City is a big series.

Also, a character's iconic status has always been a popular argument whenever it comes to supporting characters. Like I said, that's mainly thanks to the idea that Smash is a "celebration of video games" and Sakurai's own quote of a character "bringing some history".

It's still not automatically going to make them want that character. It might make them want them, but playing a game doesn't inherently make you support a character. So saying "haven't they played x" is only worth so much. I've played all of those series you mentioned. Those characters still aren't on my list.

That's why I said it depends on the person and the characters they already want. Those characters are not on your list? Okay. Are they on my list? Yeah, most of them are. When did they get on my list? After I played their games. Because doing that brings in a whole new different experience that I never would have gotten if I didn't play it. I mean, I can't even call myself a supporter if I never even played at least one game in their series.

Great. But unless every game series you've played has lead you to actively pushing for that character for Smash, you're in the exact same position as everyone else: played a number of games, but has their select few characters they support more than others.

There's nothing in this play game -> want character situation that wouldn't equally apply to any number of other series. And it's why you're generally going to see series with bigger and/or more recent impact than Contra/Kunio, like Crash, Halo, DMC, Monster Hunter, Doom, Resident Evil, etc become the ones with increased popularity over the last several years.

You're acting as if Kunio somehow doesn't have increased popularity already. River City Girls have a played a big part in bringing more recognition to the series and now Rival Showdown is getting an enhanced port to modern consoles. Plus, you're also forgetting the series popularity in Japan.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I feel pretty confident that if we got a modern official Smash poll it'd end up very artificial. Like, people would totally pay to astroturf it into oblivion. It's not like Nintendo will have good cybersecurity for it. And you know there's people immature enough to spend thousands on boosting characters. With how explosive the last speculation cycle was I can even see crowdfunds for "astroturf xyz" blowing up lol.

remembers CYL

Well... you're not wrong...

 

[dream1ng]

I'm not really interested in a new ballot simply because of how the last one dominated the speculation for years and basically divided every possible candidate into "characters that scored high on the ballot (without any concrete proof)" and "bad additions".

What? After Smash 4 ended, people thought the ballot was over. The most speculated characters were Inkling, Rex/Pyra, and a new Pokemon. Then with EiH through K. Rool they realized it was still being used, but then once it was announced Nintendo was deciding the DLC, people mostly speculated it'd be promo-related. Then we got Joker and eventually it became third-party oriented. An occasional inclusion like Banjo didn't make people think the ballot was going to dictate all of DLC, especially since Plant, Joker and Hero preceded him, and Terry and Byleth followed.

People didn't widely treat DLC like they were all bad other than Banjo and Sora. A lot of the characters popular during DLC weren't even that popular (or popular at all) during the ballot, like Crash, Geno, Doom Slayer, Steve, Chief, Dante, KOS-MOS, etc.

Without any official results given by Nintendo (which they shouldn't, because it'd be an even bigger disaster), a new ballot would simply make big fan polls and therefore perceived popularity the centerpiece of speculation, and I think it's one of the biggest factors that makes Smash speculation a chore than something fun: there's no way to talk about options that already aren't in everyone's wishlists which makes things stale and eventually hostile when people want to ensure that their faves stay on top of polls.

Perceived popularity will always be the centerpiece of speculation. Don't need a ballot for that.

People spent Smash 4 talking about Mewtwo, Mega Man, Ridley, K. Rool, Little Mac, Palutena, Roy, Chrom, Shulk, Dixie, Isaac and Pac-Man, among others.

Also, I agree the conversation is always dominated by a limited pool of candidates, which can make things repetitive, but it's not some conspiracy to "keep those characters on top", it's because popular characters have more expectation behind them than dark horses, so conversation is going to revolve more around the more expected characters. Conversation around unexpected characters is just less likely to sustain itself, because it's seen as less realistic.

That's not to say there weren't good sides of Smash ballot but the meltdown following every single "unpopular" fighter reveal (which, again, mostly fueled by inconclusive evidence) and the tribal fan support surrounding it soured my opinion on it, among other things.

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion from that people thought the ballot was going to dictate every character. At no point was there an expectation that we wouldn't get unexpected characters or that that fan favorites would make up every addition.

Plus, ballot or no ballot, the unpopular characters are going to get backlash, the popular ones will get less. Though not none, even some of them are divisive. Ballot or no ballot, people are still going to expect the popular characters, and be disappointed when they don't arrive.

Additions like Joker and Sephiroth were both well received; neither was due to the ballot. People spent all of DLC expecting Crash and Geno, but neither were going to be a ballot inclusion. People don't need a ballot to concoct reasoning to form expectation for popular characters.

The ballot will instill the expectation of getting some fan favorite characters, but tbh, after Ultimate, that expectation will be there anyway. It's never extended to every possible inclusion. People know there will be promotional characters, a surprise character, new Nintendo IP that may not be fan favorite but was successful, and third-parties that people weren't expecting. We're the fans - we're going to focus most on the fan additions.

Nothing but that time period was also less crazy than now would be. I'm sure some people did it but like, I'd expect it to be a much bigger thing now. Smash just keeps getting more and more attention each game, and all it really takes is a couple rich kids to make it snowball. Like, if people see "Oh xyz is bragging about astroturfing abc" they'll be more inclined to do it too. Especially if people see their most wanted's direct competition getting boosted or what not.

It's true the fanbase has grown with Ultimate, but the Smash fanbase was not so small or dispassionate during Smash 4 that Nintendo wouldn't have taken precautions against this possibility then. Don't forget that Smash 4 moved like 15 million copies, people just focus on the Wii U version.

 

[Perkilator]

Outside of fighters, what modes would you guys like to see in the next Smash games? Personally, I’d like to see in the next Smash game is something closer to Mario Party where you roll a number, advance on the stage select depending on the number, and play a minigame. Basically, Smash Tour if it didn’t suck.

 

[dream1ng]

Fighter's Pass 2 speculation and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race.

This is just the natural result of eliminating the Nintendo association from significance.

We wouldn't get this:

However, starting in the Ultimate DLC era, there was a shift that characters that didn't appeal to the tastes of long-time Smash die-hards and instead brought new fans to the series were ideal, like Doom Slayer, Dante, and Master Chief probably being the biggest examples of this trend. This trend has reversed a little bit with the change back to base game speculation, as people aren't nearly as dismissive of the idea of Nintendo characters generally and people thankfully recognize that dismissing cartoony characters as Scrimblos is stupid for the exact same reason dismissing JRPG characters as anime swordfighters is. However, the fanbase is still a lot more open and generally less decentralized than it probably has ever been, especially relative to the state speculation in the latter half of Fighter's Pass 2. There likely wouldn't be as big of a gap between the top and bottom of the ballot and a lot more characters that could do well enough to be serious contenders to be included.

Without opening up the gates.

I know they can't all be those itty bitty series like it used to be with Metal Gear, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Street Fighter and Final Fantasy, but if you look at the current most requested character from each company, it's generally not from their biggest IP.

And it's still worse with first-parties. Other than the defunct retro slot and the surprise picks, the IPs they add is based almost entirely on size and recency, making all the expectation/popularity for new series based on that too, with like the sole exception of Isaac.

Don't worry, people not out here talking about GTA, CoD, Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, etc.

And I know your post is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but we could do a lot worse than getting Crash, Dante, Chief, Jill, Monster Hunter and Doom Slayer.

Also, regarding that longer quote, I agree with most of it, but I'm skeptical future polls won't bear out a group of candidates who are clearly the most popular ones, even if their positions on polls aren't absolutely fixed. The Smash fanbase is just conducive to a feedback loop for certain fortunate characters, where popularity and expectation keep building each other up. I think the character range is more decentralized now, but I don't think the top results will be.

 

[jamesster445]

Outside of fighters, what modes would you guys like to see in the next Smash games? Personally, I’d like to see in the next Smash game is something closer to Mario Party where you roll a number, advance on the stage select depending on the number, and play a minigame. Basically, Smash Tour if it didn’t suck.

Blazblue has this mode called Abyss which essentially worked like a fighting game Rougelite where you gain powerups as you descend into the abyss. Imagine that concept but with Smash, spirits, etc.

Just in general more single player modes.

 

[Stratos]

As you know Bomberman and his kind vary from different colors, in other words he has the alternate costumes and he is one of the most famous characters in video games, he has what it takes to come as a newcomer in the next Super Smash Bros. game.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Shantae, Twintelle, Urbosa and Elma. What do these characters have in common? They all incorporate the colour red into their character design. You know who else incorporate that same colour into their character design? Dr. Ivo “Eggman” Robotnik.

Speaking of the doctor, do you think he’ll be the best performing Sonic character in a future ballot? Also, do you think he should use the Egg Walker for his Smash appearance?

This trend has reversed a little bit with the change back to base game speculation, as people aren't nearly as dismissive of the idea of Nintendo characters generally

An important thing to note is that given the unique circumstances of Everyone is Here, the vast majority of non-Echo newcomer characters were going to be DLC and since DLC favoured third-party characters, the ratio of first-party to third-party newcomer was going to be different. In Brawl, 2 out of 18 newcomers were third-party characters. In Smash 4, 5 out of 21 newcomers were third-party characters. In Ultimate, 11 out of 24 newcomers are third-party characters. Also, the DLC speculation period was 2 years and 11 months compared to around 8 months for the base speculation.

As you know Bomberman and his kind vary from different colors, in other words he has the alternate costumes and he is one of the most famous characters in video games, he has what it takes to come as a newcomer in the next Super Smash Bros. game.

Bomberman would make sense for the next Smash game as would Ryu Hayabusa.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But that's kind of why I said that I want to raise the idea for characters like to be in Smash.

Would be a lot easier to do that if Smashboards left character request threads open between Smash games. Ya know, during the time when they might actually matter...

But why would you think there were such a great number of people who aren't going to look past gaming from nearly seven generations ago? Not only do most fans not compartmentalize like that, but so much of the fanbase didn't grow up in that generation. So past not looking at inclusions on rigid, console-based terms, that wouldn't even be the time period that resonated most to much of the fanbase.

I think you underestimate the presence of 40+year-old nerds in the Smash fanbase.

And also the presence of 40+year-old nerds in the Smash dev team.

Moreover, we already have a lot of characters from that era, so a lot of the big franchises are already represented when compared to franchises from later eras. Especially post-2000, where there are fewer third-party IP than there have been console generations.

Here's the thing about that...

Game franchises from the early eras...ALSO exist in newer eras. The reverse is not true.

Now, obviously, this doesn't apply to picks like Ice Climbers/ROB/Duck Hunt. But characters like Mega Man/Simon/Hayabusa/Kunio are not JUST "80s picks". Because those franchises continue to make games throughout gaming history.

Kunio is not just an 80s pick. He's an 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s, 2020s pick. Whereas a character from post-2000 is only going to be a 2000s, 2010s, etc. pick.

It's just how time works. The longer a franchise has been around, the more games it probably has, which means more opportunities for fans, more content to inspire a character, etc.

and now Rival Showdown is getting an enhanced port to modern consoles.

It's what now?! That's the best one!

 

[Gengar84]

Would be a lot easier to do that if Smashboards left character request threads open between Smash games. Ya know, during the time when they might actually matter...

I think you underestimate the presence of 40+year-old nerds in the Smash fanbase.

And also the presence of 40+year-old nerds in the Smash dev team.

Yeah, I never really understood that. By the time the game is revealed, the roster has already pretty much been decided. That makes support threads kind of meaningless beyond anything but fun discussion. I also believe that there are plenty of Smash fans my age or older so it makes sense to include some characters from when we were kids. I feel like there should be a roughly even balance of characters from every generation.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Would be a lot easier to do that if Smashboards left character request threads open between Smash games. Ya know, during the time when they might actually matter...

Yeah, it never made sense why they just closed them like that, as if fans won't still be supporting characters for the next Smash game.

It's what now?! That's the best one!

Oh, you didn't know? River City Rival Showdown is getting an enhanced re-release on current consoles later this year.

HYPE!

 

[Oracle Link]

So now i can finally talk about Demonking Ganondorf why? Because ive beaten tears of the kingdom!
Such a good finale its both cinematic and full of cool and varied challenges throughout!

Spoiler: Demonking Ganondorf

So first things first i really dont think we need two Ganondorfs instead new Ganondorf should take his form from Gerudo ganondorf from TOTK because unlike link who looks worse for some Ganondorfs TOTK look seems to be agreed to be his best!
He Should have Miasma Blasts As Smash Attacks while having a Trident for his basic attacks (lets be honest his TOTK Weapons are fortgetable) Than obviously A mix of classic and TOTK Dead mans volley as neutral Special
For his final smash i think having two versions of it that being Classic Pig Ganon and Calamity Ganon would be cool
(Black dragon is cool but i dunno i want two diffrent ganons instead)

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Yeah, I never really understood that. By the time the game is revealed, the roster has already pretty much been decided. That makes support threads kind of meaningless beyond anything but fun discussion. I also believe that there are plenty of Smash fans my age or older so it makes sense to include some characters from when we were kids. I feel like there should be a roughly even balance of characters from every generation.

I just want more characters from games made in the 2000's

Feels like there's barely any in comparison to th 2010's, 90's and 80's.

 

[Will]

I just want more characters from games made in the 2000's

Feels like there's barely any in comparison to th 2010's, 90's and 80's.

Makes sense how it happened imo as the two games that released in the 2000’s was at the very beginning and near the end of the decade. And even then, the only eligible characters had to be conceptualized pre-2006, so half that decade was shot to start with.

 

[dream1ng]

They don't have to played by the same people (even though they can and have). The point is, fans have had the same kind of experience with those games during that same era and even the one after that. It's one of the main reasons why Mega Man and Simon were wanted in Smash. They were seen as honorary Nintendo characters. Bill and Lance, due to their own series popularity on the Nintendo consoles, are seen the same way.

Of course, I admit that they have an uphill battle with Bomberman but that still doesn't mean it can't get enough support.

But being 'honorary Nintendo characters' isn't a big factor in causing popularity anymore, and in fact many of those Nintendo-associated candidates have since declined in popularity.

Some who originally got popular during the time Nintendo association was thought important have managed to hold on, like Phoenix Wright and Shantae. But if you look at any third-party who got popular post-ballot, the Nintendo association is clearly pretty inconsistent and overall much weaker.

I...never said that but I'm also not going to act like Contra is just some "c-tier" series either and its leads are not that compelling. Bill and Lance would easily stand out in the Smash Bros roster for obvious reasons.

Well... since gen five it kinda has been. It's mostly intermittent lower budget stuff that doesn't get a ton of promotion, and doesn't do big numbers.

By the end of the fourth gen Contra as a series had sold 4 mil. I kinda doubt the series has found much greater success since.

Its visibility is just... not where the bar seems to be for most new requests that catch on these days is.

I mean, you have your opinions on its characters, I have my opinion on its characters, but polling has never shown high interest in them.

I never said they won't look at the generations after that. What I am saying is that that's been one of the primary reasons why people wanted Mega Man and Simon, partially the reason why fans wanted Hero and Pac-Man, and it's now one of the reasons why they want Ryu Hayabusa.

And you haven't put two and two together that the difference between Mega Man, Castlevania, Dragon Quest, Pac-Man and the current characters whose lack of support you are surprised by is that all those former series found higher success and popularity across many different generations?

Or that Ryu Hayabusa is more popular than Bill/Lance and Kunio, and he is also the one who has had more success (in the west) outside the NES era than those two? You haven't found the correlation that the more successful you are in more generations, the likelier it is you'll be requested?

Look at the most requested third-party series: Crash, Halo, Rayman, DMC, Doom, Monster Hunter, RE, Tales, Bomberman, Shantae... how limited are any of these series perception-wise to a single system?

The closest is probably Crash to the PS1. But then again, look at where his popularity was before he successfully returned on other platforms.

And it didn't just start with them. Prior to them, Little Mac and Pit were the top most wanted retro characters for Smash. Fans have always been very vocal about it too. Nintendo pretty much ruled the video game era back in the 80s, so the NES era has always been seen as something special.

So.... you're equating Hero to Pit now?

Well, there was believed to be a spot carved out for retro first-parties from Melee to 4, and when it's believed you're guaranteed a spot of a certain type, people are going to try to fit it, which is going to result in popularity for the candidates they believe likeliest to do so.

Do you honestly think Takamaru would've been one of the most requested first-parties without belief in a retro spot? Most people hadn't even played his game. Also, for Brawl, Little Mac did ok, but he didn't become one of the most popular characters until they brought him out of being the "retro character" and revived his series. That's when he became one of the top picks. When he was no longer considered retro.

However, even if they do look past that generation and look at the more recent ones, there's a good chance they'll still end up looking up games from those franchises, whether it's Ninja Gaiden, River City/Kunio Kun, or Double Dragon because those series have still been active in the later generations and continued to gained some attention from newer fans.

And how many people do you think are actually going to do that compared to those who will support a bigger character from a series with a longer, higher, and probably current degree of success?

And then how do you reconcile whatever your answer is with the fact that that's clearly not what polls reflect?

Which fits Kunio and Riki because River City is a big series.

Games-wise. I meant prevalence/visibility-wise, which is more important for popularity.

I mean Atelier has a whole bunch of games. But which do you think is likelier, it or Ninja Gaiden?

Also, a character's iconic status has always been a popular argument whenever it comes to supporting characters. Like I said, that's mainly thanks to the idea that Smash is a "celebration of video games" and Sakurai's own quote of a character "bringing some history".

It's always been a bad argument since you're arguing a subjective.

And good thing video games and history didn't end in the 80s, did they.

That's why I said it depends on the person and the characters they already want. Those characters are not on your list? Okay. Are they on my list? Yeah, most of them are. When did they get on my list? After I played their games. Because doing that brings in a whole new different experience that I never would have gotten if I didn't play it. I mean, I can't even call myself a supporter if I never even played at least one game in their series.

Well I guess most people don't want them then.

Unless you're suggesting it's just because people haven't played them.

In which case I return to the point that unless you actively support characters from every game you've played, you're in the same situation with some other character. People play a number of games, but only actively support a select amount of characters.

You're acting as if Kunio somehow doesn't have increased popularity already. River City Girls have a played a big part in bringing more recognition to the series and now Rival Showdown is getting an enhanced port to modern consoles. Plus, you're also forgetting the series popularity in Japan.

Well, you're the one who said he wasn't that requested. That's how this started. I agree with that though, I don't think he is that requested. Maybe he has increased popularity, but... going from a D to a D+ (as an analogy) still isn't great.

I'm not forgetting about the series popularity in Japan, this conversation started with you talking about your MWs not being as requested as you thought they'd be, as evidenced by sourcegaming's poll, so that didn't really extend to Japanese popularity. If you want to invoke Japanese popularity, Kunio does better and Contra does worse. But my argument was explaining this lack of western popularity.

And as for getting more games, great. So far the effect of new games on his Smash demand, to most people, is probably imperceptible.

I think you underestimate the presence of 40+year-old nerds in the Smash fanbase.

Given the lack of conversation surrounding these characters matches the lack of popularity evidenced on polls matches the minimal role things like Contra/Kunio have in-game... I'd say I'm estimating things pretty accurately.

You know this conversation started by the remark that these characters aren't performing that well on the poll, right? I didn't come and say "I think they wouldn't do well", I'm just explaining why I believe it's not surprising characters like Bill Rizer and Kunio aren't charting well.

Like, the argument isn't whether they are. It's why they aren't. Because they aren't. And they seemingly never have. In the west, at least. I know Kunio is more popular in Japan, but it's not like I've seen Japanese polls where he places that well either.

Konami-wise, Goemon does well in Japan. Not character-level, but it may be part of why he got a costume.

And yeah, the 40+ year olds are gonna be likelier to support these characters... but... with the fact that it's characters newer than the NES era that are the most popular, is it just that many more younger fans? Or are the older fans voting for newer characters? Either way it doesn't really help your argument.

And also the presence of 40+year-old nerds in the Smash dev team.

Well, one, I'm talking about western popularity. Two, the dev team other than Sakurai doesn't pick the characters. Three, Nintendo, who allegedly selected the DLC, didn't pick any characters from the 80s, apart from Hero, who... isn't an era-specific character. Four, that would help Kunio, but Contra and Ninja Gaiden are more popular in the west than Japan.

I also believe that there are plenty of Smash fans my age or older so it makes sense to include some characters from when we were kids. I feel like there should be a roughly even balance of characters from every generation.

Gen 2:
Gen 3:
Gen 4:
Gen 5:
Gen 6:
Gen 7:
Gen 8:

Ah yes, balance.

Fwiw, I don't agree with things being this segmented. Characters obviously aren't just "Gen whatever" characters - if they've gotten into Smash they've likely crossed multiple gens successfully. This is just regarding the concept of balance. Which, in this context, we clearly don't have.

 

[Perkilator]

Source Gaming just did a Dream Smasher on a certain color-haired anime girl…also, they’re going to do Alear next.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Source Gaming just did a Dream Smasher on a certain color-haired anime girl…also, they’re going to do Alear next.

i could think of 200 characters that are more related to video games and would get into Smash first before a vocaloid application

 

[Dan Quixote]

i could think of 200 characters that are more related to video games and would get into Smash first before a vocaloid application

Yeah, but it would be so funny.

 

[fogbadge]

random question: anyone fancy a food themed stage? like say sweet mountain from sonic colours or luncheon kingdom from mario odyssey

 

[Wonder Smash]

But being 'honorary Nintendo characters' isn't a big factor in causing popularity anymore, and in fact many of those Nintendo-associated candidates have since declined in popularity.

Some who originally got popular during the time Nintendo association was thought important have managed to hold on, like Phoenix Wright and Shantae. But if you look at any third-party who got popular post-ballot, the Nintendo association is clearly pretty inconsistent and overall much weaker.

Seeing how popular Ryu Hayabusa has become in Smash discussions, that's clearly not the case.

Well... since gen five it kinda has been. It's mostly intermittent lower budget stuff that doesn't get a ton of promotion, and doesn't do big numbers.

By the end of the fourth gen Contra as a series had sold 4 mil. I kinda doubt the series has found much greater success since.

Its visibility is just... not where the bar seems to be for most new requests that catch on these days is.

I mean, you have your opinions on its characters, I have my opinion on its characters, but polling has never shown high interest in them.

Overall, the series got too many solid entries to be considered "c-tier". Even when talking about 3D games, people loved Shattered Soldier. Rogue Corps is the only blemish to the series that comes to mind but it's not enough to sit the series back or give it a bad image.

Polls don't really tell us what fans think of the characters. However, I don't think anybody would be against characters that look like "Dutch" Schwarzenegger or "Rambo" Stallone in the Smash Bros series.

And you haven't put two and two together that the difference between Mega Man, Castlevania, Dragon Quest, Pac-Man and the current characters whose lack of support you are surprised by is that all those former series found higher success and popularity across many different generations?

Or that Ryu Hayabusa is more popular than Bill/Lance and Kunio, and he is also the one who has had more success (in the west) outside the NES era than those two? You haven't found the correlation that the more successful you are in more generations, the likelier it is you'll be requested?

Look at the most requested third-party series: Crash, Halo, Rayman, DMC, Doom, Monster Hunter, RE, Tales, Bomberman, Shantae... how limited are any of these series perception-wise to a single system?

The closest is probably Crash to the PS1. But then again, look at where his popularity was before he successfully returned on other platforms.

Are you aware that those same things actually do apply to the series I was talking about? Contra wasn't just a hit on the NES, you know? It also had some hit games on the SNES and SEGA Genesis. So it wasn't just one generation for that series. It continued to have games after that.

Same thing with River City/Kunio-kun. River City Girls success has helped brought more recognition to the series outside of Japan and now more games have been localized. Of course, in the end, to top it all off, River City also had a spirit event in Smash Ultimate, giving the series a more direct exposure to the Smash fanbase.

But it's kind of pointless to bring this up because it doesn't change what I said, which the reason people wanted those characters in the game. They didn't want Mega Man because of Mega Man 9 or Simon because of Castlevania Judgement. They wanted them mainly because they came from the NES era.

So.... you're equating Hero to Pit now?

Well, there was believed to be a spot carved out for retro first-parties from Melee to 4, and when it's believed you're guaranteed a spot of a certain type, people are going to try to fit it, which is going to result in popularity for the candidates they believe likeliest to do so.

Do you honestly think Takamaru would've been one of the most requested first-parties without belief in a retro spot? Most people hadn't even played his game. Also, for Brawl, Little Mac did ok, but he didn't become one of the most popular characters until they brought him out of being the "retro character" and revived his series. That's when he became one of the top picks. When he was no longer considered retro.

"Equating"? What are you referring to?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here but on the Little Mac part, yeah, he was definitely one of the most popular retro characters at that time. Seeing how fans loved the Punch-Out!! series and recognizing it as Nintendo's first combat-based series before Smash Bros existed, Little Mac's name popped up in just about every discussion involving retro characters and they were crushed when they found out he was an assist trophy.

And how many people do you think are actually going to do that compared to those who will support a bigger character from a series with a longer, higher, and probably current degree of success?

And then how do you reconcile whatever your answer is with the fact that that's clearly not what polls reflect?

looks at Ninja Gaiden

I'll let you answer that on your own.

Games-wise. I meant prevalence/visibility-wise, which is more important for popularity.

I mean Atelier has a whole bunch of games. But which do you think is likelier, it or Ninja Gaiden?

I have no problem saying Ninja Gaiden.

But you know, it's strange you didn't ask anything like that about River City.

It's always been a bad argument since you're arguing a subjective.

And good thing video games and history didn't end in the 80s, did they.

It's actually a good argument because that also matters when it comes to getting characters in Smash. Not just popularity like you keep saying.

Well I guess most people don't want them then.

Unless you're suggesting it's just because people haven't played them.

In which case I return to the point that unless you actively support characters from every game you've played, you're in the same situation with some other character. People play a number of games, but only actively support a select amount of characters.

Well, you can't speak for everybody. Like I said more than once now, it depends on the person and the characters they already want. I happened to like beat'em ups and my MWs (Billy and Jimmy) are created by the same company, so I was able to gravitate towards Kunio and Riki and their games very easily.

Well, you're the one who said he wasn't that requested. That's how this started. I agree with that though, I don't think he is that requested. Maybe he has increased popularity, but... going from a D to a D+ (as an analogy) still isn't great.

I'm not forgetting about the series popularity in Japan, this conversation started with you talking about your MWs not being as requested as you thought they'd be, as evidenced by sourcegaming's poll, so that didn't really extend to Japanese popularity. If you want to invoke Japanese popularity, Kunio does better and Contra does worse. But my argument was explaining this lack of western popularity.

And as for getting more games, great. So far the effect of new games on his Smash demand, to most people, is probably imperceptible.

Yes, that's the point; I was using SourceGaming as an example. What I was saying was that my concern about an official poll is realizing that none of my MWs got enough votes and the poll by SourceGaming was an example of that. By your own admission, Ninja Gaiden is a popular series across different generations and yet, even Ryu Hayabusa wasn't on that list. You gave your own reason for why Kunio and Riki, or Bill and Lance weren't on that list but if Ryu Hayabusa isn't on that list either, then even you've got to find that kind of weird too. There's definitely something else up with that.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Source Gaming just did a Dream Smasher on a certain color-haired anime girl…also, they’re going to do Alear next.

Did we ever establish if Vocaloids even count as a gaming thing? Like, no offense, but I feel you'd have an easier time justifying somebody like Geralt or even Slenderman if you REALLY wanna stretch it.

 

[ARandomFruit]

random question: anyone fancy a food themed stage? like say sweet mountain from sonic colours or luncheon kingdom from mario odyssey

A Kirby dream buffet stage would be fun.
It could be like the Mario kart stage and you get hit by a bunch of Kirbies/Waddle dees racing across using the different power ups

 

[fogbadge]

A Kirby dream buffet stage would be fun.
It could be like the Mario kart stage and you get hit by a bunch of Kirbies/Waddle dees racing across using the different power ups

i like it

 

[Zerp]

It's true the fanbase has grown with Ultimate, but the Smash fanbase was not so small or dispassionate during Smash 4 that Nintendo wouldn't have taken precautions against this possibility then. Don't forget that Smash 4 moved like 15 million copies, people just focus on the Wii U version.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding me because I agree with half of that. I was saying I expect the next Smash to be "a bigger thing" because each game has been more popular than the last. Like, Ult was bigger than 4 which was bigger than Brawl which was bigger than Melee, you get the idea. Not like, that I think Smash 4 was small. Smash's nature as a crossover gives it enough exposure that a sequel is basically always go to get insane amounts of sustained attention. Well, unless they do something like cut half the cast, in which case perhaps not lol.

Although, when it comes to the precautions thing I disagree. You're right that Smash 4 was absolutely big enough that they should've had them, but this is Nintendo. For better or worse they're always like five billion years behind the times. Maybe they had something back then but I wouldn't bet on anything stronger than "it blocks the same IP from having multiple votes counted". I'm kinda just assuming nobody dropped real money on some sketchy website and bam, suddenly there's 3,000 unique IPs voting for Giant Breadbug. For all we know that could've happened back then lol

random question: anyone fancy a food themed stage? like say sweet mountain from sonic colours or luncheon kingdom from mario odyssey

Luncheon Kingdom would be awesome. Personally though, if I had to pick one stage there's this random pizza in Pikmin 3's Fortress of Festivity I'd like.

Spoiler: Big Image

First stage to make us all hungry lol

 

[Laniv]

random question: anyone fancy a food themed stage? like say sweet mountain from sonic colours or luncheon kingdom from mario odyssey

Lollipop Land, DKCR's Golden Temple, Tropical Freeze's Juicy Jungle... Maybe Sugarland Shimmy if Cuphead gets in?

 

[fogbadge]

Luncheon Kingdom would be awesome. Personally though, if I had to pick one stage there's this random pizza in Pikmin 3's Fortress of Festivity I'd like.

Spoiler: Big Image

First stage to make us all hungry lol

its making me hungry already

Lollipop Land, DKCR's Golden Temple, Tropical Freeze's Juicy Jungle... Maybe Sugarland Shimmy if Cuphead gets in?

juicy jungle would be great, fighting on top of ice lollies

 

[DynamicSmasher]

random question: anyone fancy a food themed stage? like say sweet mountain from sonic colours or luncheon kingdom from mario odyssey

Sherbet Land and Choco Mountain from Mario Kart jump to mind for me, from Mario Kart. Cheese Land too. From outside Nintendo, Sweet Mountain from Sonic would be cool, and Gourmand Land would add some variety outside just sweet foods.

My wildcard pick though: A Cooking Mama stage that plays like WarioWare Inc.

 

[fogbadge]

My wildcard pick though: A Cooking Mama stage that plays like WarioWare Inc.

yes

 

[Garteam]

This is just the natural result of eliminating the Nintendo association from significance.

We wouldn't get this:


Without opening up the gates.

I know they can't all be those itty bitty series like it used to be with Metal Gear, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Street Fighter and Final Fantasy, but if you look at the current most requested character from each company, it's generally not from their biggest IP.

And it's still worse with first-parties. Other than the defunct retro slot and the surprise picks, the IPs they add is based almost entirely on size and recency, making all the expectation/popularity for new series based on that too, with like the sole exception of Isaac.

Don't worry, people not out here talking about GTA, CoD, Assassin's Creed, Tomb Raider, etc.

And I know your post is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but we could do a lot worse than getting Crash, Dante, Chief, Jill, Monster Hunter and Doom Slayer.

Also, regarding that longer quote, I agree with most of it, but I'm skeptical future polls won't bear out a group of candidates who are clearly the most popular ones, even if their positions on polls aren't absolutely fixed. The Smash fanbase is just conducive to a feedback loop for certain fortunate characters, where popularity and expectation keep building each other up. I think the character range is more decentralized now, but I don't think the top results will be.

I definitely think there's a healthy medium between a laundry list of requirements necessary for Third Parties to enter Smash of the pre-Smash 4 DLC era and the idea that anyone that isn't a big-name Third Party is a bad choice of the Fighter's Pass 2 era though. A lot of characters from big-name franchises would be very cool, but I also like a lot of Nintendo characters, supporting characters from Third Party series already in Smash, and smaller Third Parties that really got shouted down by the crowd during Fighter's Pass 2's speculation.

It also makes speculation a lot more exciting. You can only have so many discussions about Crash, Master Chief, Doom Marine, and Dante before things get dry. Capcom discussions in particular are a lot more interesting now that there are about eight names that could realistically get in Smash instead of just being constant debates of Dante vs. Phoenix Wright. A lot of this came down to many Capcom characters getting deconfirmed during the DLC era like X, Zero, the Resident Evil cast, and Monster Hunter, but you know things were getting bad when Vergil was getting serious discussion because the community had simultaneously retread the Dante discussion countless times and limited themselves to which series could be seriously discussed.