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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Chuderz

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 18, 2020
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Does this stage have a name or wiki entry somewhere? I've never seen it before and am just curious.

Despite the blank background I actually like the stage itself.

 

MBRedboy31

Smash Lord
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May 5, 2018
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Does this stage have a name or wiki entry somewhere? I've never seen it before and am just curious.

Despite the blank background I actually like the stage itself.

This is Smash 3DS’ version of the Online Practice Stage. Smash for Wii U had a completely different one that looks similar to the Miiverse stage.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

Smash the State
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It's kind of remarkable that no one's managed to figure out a Smash clone with an angle that people can get into.

I mean Mario Kart is huge, but various other franchises shifted focus in their emphasis that did lead to some strong stuff quality wise; Diddy Kong Racing, Crash Team Racing, Sonic & Sega All Star Racing and so forth. Platform fighters though seem to have an uphill climb seemingly every time. Heck, that a TMNT version (that's not even tied to a specific version of them) featuring Rabbids is actually one of the more successful efforts is pretty telling.
What would you count as people getting into it? Slap City was popular for quite a while. SKX31 brought up Rivals of Aether and Brawlhalla.

Platform fighters are a niche subgenre of a niche genre. Smash entries' dips in popularity are masked by their relatively high initial player counts.
It's because platform fighters try to copy of Smash in either its crossover aspect or gameplay. You will not beat Smash at either of those things.
In a sense, Mugen beats Smash at the former. As for the latter, Melee's is really the only official Smash gameplay worth copying.
Realistically, a workshop based platform fighter might be the most pragmatic path for it to genuinely stand out because it can do some interesting things with character creation/usage that other games in the genre can't.
Are you referring to Fraymakers?
Agreed, but I'd add to it a bit.

The game, at least from an outsider's perspective, looks like it'd be made for casuals, but when you get your hands on it, it's just


Not


The game is janky as hell and super fast-paced, and it feels like it caters more to the hardcore Melee fans than to your average casual.
It's bizarre to me that some people think casual players are less likely to enjoy a fast-paced fighting game. What is this based on?
You wanna rope in casuals....? How exactly? Your selection of gamemodes is.... stock battle... time battle... and sure, I'll give you Sports but... what else is there? An unsatisfying arcade mode where the characters spout generic phrases of theirs with 0 interaction between their opponents... in a crossover fighting game? No items for casual play? Granted, they were going to be in but....?
Smash only had significant character interaction in Brawl.
Since when are items necessary or expected for a fighting game, even one marketed towards casual players?
 

Shroob

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It's bizarre to me that some people think casual players are less likely to enjoy a fast-paced fighting game. What is this based on?

Smash only had significant character interaction in Brawl.
Since when are items necessary or expected for a fighting game, even one marketed towards casual players?
To dissect these one by one.


Fighting games in general are a niche markekt, something the FGC itself is well aware of, and why Fighting Games nowadays try to incorporate easier methods of play to try to rope in a more casual audience. Contrary to popular belief, casual players don't want to spend hours upon hours in the training mode to map out combos, they wanna mash buttons and see big damage, it's why a lot of games are adding in things like auto-combos specifically for that kind of market, and partially why Smash is such a big success. Sure, you can play at insane pro-gamer levels, or you can mash buttons and funny wahoo man punches.


Incorrect. Smash 4 and Ultimate also have character interactions. Hell, Smash 4 introduced the Palutena's Guidance, which may be heresy to say, but it blows the Codec calls out of the water from Brawl. And the thing is, something to note is that NASB doesn't have voice acting, so for all intents and purposes, what was stopping the devs from going all out and having the arcade mode dialogue be the characters interacting with one another since, again, no voice acting. Instead, all we get are generic stock phrases which don't add to the crossover nature. Like, Spongebob, you're fighting a kid who can turn into a Ghost and you don't question if he knows the Flying Dutchmann? You're just gonna say "I'M READY!"? Unless you're talking about Subspace which, sure, I'll give you that at least, but Smash keeps up the interaction aspect well past Brawl.


I mean, the devs of NASB itself wanted to include items, so even they thought they were needed at one point or another. Casuals love items in platform fighting games. I speak for myself when saying this, but as a kid growing up with Melee, me and my friend used to do Very High Pokeball spawn back in Melee and just go to town. Items are wacky. They help add to the casual-appeal since they're "So randum and le epic". Having a Bob-Omb blow up in your face right as you think you're about to do a charged forward Smash gets a laugh in a room of people. Necessary? No. Do casuals love them? Yes, absolutely.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Honestly, Melee the only gameplay worth keeping ? Melee is heavily unbalanced and broken in many ways. I much prefer Ultimate, and with confidence I'll say Ultimate is the better overall game, if it's just for the sheer variety and balance. Now fix the input delays, and boom, literally perfect platforming fighting game.

But to each their own. Just don't speak of your opinions as fact.

I never really was all that interested in other platform fighters like Smash, simply because they where not Smash. I can't think of a future where there's any other platform fighting game that will ever top Smash.

As for character interaction, just check the trailers and character reveal trailers. The K.Rool trailer in particular had better character interaction that I've seen in any Donkey Kong game.
 

Swamp Sensei

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Look. I hate dogpiling on NASBR. It's been hamstringed by the license holders since day one.

But some people are saying the competitive community is gonna keep the game alive.

The game currently has 21 viewers on Twitch. And... its been that low for quite some time. I've been checking.

Look, I love a lot of niche and "dead" fighting games like ARMS and Pokken, It took until their final DLC was done to get that low of viewership and community outreach. NASBR just got started.

I think its also worth noting that a lot of the hype around it wasn't genuine. The amount of "Smash killer" going around was overall negative for the game because so much of it was a petty jab at Nintendo's flaws, as opposed to genuine excitement. The smash content creators pushing it, didn't really like it and dropped it faster than they picked it up.

Even then, I don't think the gameplay is good enough to save it. Animations look and feel awful. In an attempt to feel fast paced, they sacrificed conveyance. Which is bad. It's hard to tell what move comes out and react accordingly. Melee, Marvel vs Capcom and a number of other fast fighting games don't sacrifice that. Every move looks distinct and has a recognizable silhouette. They don't in NASBR.

There's also the fact that everyone is rushdown. Other fighting games (including Melee) provide a variety of style to choose from. In NASBR, any playstyle aside from rushdown is subpar. Even dedicated and intended zoners like Oblina do significantly better when they're rushing the opponent down.

It all makes for a stale and mashy meta.

The game is in a bad state.
 
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Guynamednelson

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That doesn't really take away from their point though. Melee is far from a balanced game.


It's a fast game with a lot of movement options, but balanced is not a word I'd use to describe it.
It just seemed like Diddy assumed Melee fans like Melee gameplay because of Bowser and Mewtwo being useless against Fox, and not, you know, its mobility options.
 

Shroob

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Look. I hate dogpiling on NASBR. It's been hamstringed by the license holders since day one.

But some people are saying the competitive community is gonna keep the game alive.

The game currently has 21 viewers on Twitch. And... its been that low for quite some time. I've been checking.

Look, I love a lot of niche and "dead" fighting games like ARMS and Pokken, It took until their final DLC was done to get that low of viewership and community outreach. NASBR just got started.

I think its also worth noting that a lot of the hype around it wasn't genuine. The amount of "Smash killer" going around was overall negative for the game because so much of it was a petty jab at Nintendo's flaws, as opposed to genuine excitement. The smash content creators pushing it, didn't really like it and dropped it faster than they picked it up.

Even then, I don't think the gameplay is good enough to save it. Animations look and feel awful. In an attempt to feel fast paced, they sacrificed conveyance. Which is bad. It's hard to tell what move comes out and react accordingly. Melee, Marvel vs Capcom and a number of other fast fighting games don't sacrifice that. Every move looks distinct and has a recognizable silhouette. They don't in NASBR.

There's also the fact that everyone is rushdown. Other fighting games (including Melee) provide a variety of style to choose from. In NASBR, any playstyle aside from rushdown is subpar. Even dedicated and intended zoners like Oblina do significantly better when they're rushing the opponent down.

It all makes for a stale and mashy meta.

The game is in a bad state.
To me, the biggest red flag is well


Garfield.


It's ****ing Garfield, a character who the internet loves and loves to meme on.


And yet, the numbers clearly show not an increase in playercount at his release, but a loss of players.



Players leaving when new content gets added, mind you, a DLC character as famous as Garfield? That's.... very concerning.
 

Diddy Kong

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You do know one character dominating everyone else is not what Melee fans like about Melee over other Smashes right?
There's not one. Fox is dominant, yeah, but Falco and Marth are able to at least stand a chance. Anything else but Mango's Jigglypuff and Armada's Peach is just livestock for the slaughterhouse. It did get better with the years, but Melee isn't a perfect Smash game.

I'll state that Brawl Metaknight AND Smash 4 Bayonetta where worse than Fox in Melee, and Brawl and Smash 4 might suffer from worse balance than Melee even in some cases. Brawl for certain, Smash 4 patched the worst stuff out aside from Bayonetta, but still.

Ultimate is balanced, has a huge cast, there's not one character who's completely dominant (Aegis comes closest so far), there's just one player who's very dominant and he's playing a character that some people don't even think is High Tier, namely Byleth...

Just take a moment to contemplate that, a Byleth player is the king pin of Smash Ultimate.

That's reasonably well balanced.
 

Sucumbio

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If Melee came out today, I'd hate it. I wasn't a huge fan anyway but I at least enjoyed it because my friends did.

Brawl on the other hand, which got tons of flak for reasons, was my true first smash game and what I set as the bar.

NASB would have to have been at least Brawl levels of quality to capture and retain a player base even remotely close to what Melee accomplished for Smash.

So my take is NASB and MV, they're 1st time entries. There's only one fighting game to me that's "made it" right from the start and that's Killer Instinct. Closely second is Mortal Kombat but MK2 was light years ahead of it whereas KI Gold wasn't actually that great IMHO.
 

Nabbitfan730

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Look, I love a lot of niche and "dead" fighting games like ARMS and Pokken, It took until their final DLC was done to get that low of viewership and community outreach. NASBR just got started.
Ah, I remember being super dedicated with Arms. For time 2017, that game was hella fun to play especially with friends. Sure Splatoon 2 ate into that time heavily during the summer when it came but I was sure still playing. The news of Arms finishing DLC at the end of 2017 was gutting especially with Dr Coyle bringing in new lore to the world. What a shame. Arms could done so much better if Nintendo gave more love to it

I wouldn't mind Yabuki working Sakurai to create a 3D Smash in the future. Arms definitely shows it's possible.

Also on this NASB and Multiversus, There isn't more for me to say that hasn't been said already especially with Swamp putting my mind to words the most.

I will definitely that Multiversus already is going to be bigger than NASB via free to play which makes it more accessible to causals, much variety, popularity and choice in ips, higher polish and the objective of actually trying to being innovative with the platform fighter with the multiplayer and 2v2s.
 

Trevenant

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I see people always treat mugen as if it's an actual game, but last time I checked it was pretty much an engine... What's up with that?
 
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Gengar84

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Has anyone else hear heard the rumor that Bandai Namco is supposedly developing a new Killer Instinct for Microsoft? If that game ends up doing well, I think it would really help the odds of a KI character in Smash. Bandai has been working on Smash for a while now and Microsoft has a really good relationship with Nintendo. From what I’m hearing, Microsoft wants to push Killer Instinct as X-Box’s fighting game series similar to Smash on Nintendo and Street Fighter for Sony. It would be very fitting for Smash because KI was once positioned as Nintendo’s fighter before Smash was created.

Here is MaximillianDood’s discussion on the rumor for anyone interested:
 
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chocolatejr9

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Has anyone else hear heard the rumor that Bandai Namco is supposedly developing a new Killer Instinct for Microsoft? If that game ends up doing well, I think it would really help the odds of a KI character in Smash. Bandai has been working on Smash for a while now and Microsoft has a really good relationship with Nintendo. From what I’m hearing, Microsoft wants to push Killer Instinct as X-Box’s fighting game series similar to Smash on Nintendo and Street Fighter for Sony. It would be very fitting for Smash because KI was once positioned as Nintendo’s fighter before Smash was created.

Here is MaximillianDood’s discussion on the rumor for anyone interested:
Why am I tempted to make a joke about KI having an anime artstyle?
 

Al-kīmiyā'

Smash the State
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Fighting games in general are a niche markekt, something the FGC itself is well aware of, and why Fighting Games nowadays try to incorporate easier methods of play to try to rope in a more casual audience. Contrary to popular belief, casual players don't want to spend hours upon hours in the training mode to map out combos, they wanna mash buttons and see big damage, it's why a lot of games are adding in things like auto-combos specifically for that kind of market, and partially why Smash is such a big success. Sure, you can play at insane pro-gamer levels, or you can mash buttons and funny wahoo man punches.
No one's forcing casual players to lab combos. They can play however they want. Button mashers can and do have fun playing everything from Melee to Xrd. Furthermore, there are levels of skill past button mashing that I would still categorize as casual.
Incorrect. Smash 4 and Ultimate also have character interactions. Hell, Smash 4 introduced the Palutena's Guidance, which may be heresy to say, but it blows the Codec calls out of the water from Brawl. And the thing is, something to note is that NASB doesn't have voice acting, so for all intents and purposes, what was stopping the devs from going all out and having the arcade mode dialogue be the characters interacting with one another since, again, no voice acting. Instead, all we get are generic stock phrases which don't add to the crossover nature. Like, Spongebob, you're fighting a kid who can turn into a Ghost and you don't question if he knows the Flying Dutchmann? You're just gonna say "I'M READY!"? Unless you're talking about Subspace which, sure, I'll give you that at least, but Smash keeps up the interaction aspect well past Brawl.
Codecs and Palutena's Guidance are not what I consider significant character interaction.
I mean, the devs of NASB itself wanted to include items, so even they thought they were needed at one point or another. Casuals love items in platform fighting games. I speak for myself when saying this, but as a kid growing up with Melee, me and my friend used to do Very High Pokeball spawn back in Melee and just go to town. Items are wacky. They help add to the casual-appeal since they're "So randum and le epic". Having a Bob-Omb blow up in your face right as you think you're about to do a charged forward Smash gets a laugh in a room of people. Necessary? No. Do casuals love them? Yes, absolutely.
I played Melee for an hour or two several times a week after school at my friend's house, mostly with items off, and (despite what I might have thought at the time) I was only playing at a casual level of skill. Items can be fun, but they're hardly necessary for a fighting game to appeal to casual players. There are casual players of tons of fighting games without items. That should be uncontroversial.
Honestly, Melee the only gameplay worth keeping ? Melee is heavily unbalanced and broken in many ways. I much prefer Ultimate, and with confidence I'll say Ultimate is the better overall game, if it's just for the sheer variety and balance. Now fix the input delays, and boom, literally perfect platforming fighting game.

But to each their own. Just don't speak of your opinions as fact.

I never really was all that interested in other platform fighters like Smash, simply because they where not Smash. I can't think of a future where there's any other platform fighting game that will ever top Smash.

As for character interaction, just check the trailers and character reveal trailers. The K.Rool trailer in particular had better character interaction that I've seen in any Donkey Kong game.
There is some janky bull**** in Melee, but the core gameplay and physics are superior to its succesors'.

Opinions are easily distinguishable from facts. I shouldn't have to label them as such. Besides, I don't see you admonishing anyone for speaking in that manner when they agree with your opinions.

Are you suggesting that NASB would gain or retain more players by having more character interaction in trailers?
The smash content creators pushing it, didn't really like it and dropped it faster than they picked it up.
Mango seemed to genuinely enjoy it.
There's not one. Fox is dominant, yeah, but Falco and Marth are able to at least stand a chance. Anything else but Mango's Jigglypuff and Armada's Peach is just livestock for the slaughterhouse. It did get better with the years, but Melee isn't a perfect Smash game.

I'll state that Brawl Metaknight AND Smash 4 Bayonetta where worse than Fox in Melee, and Brawl and Smash 4 might suffer from worse balance than Melee even in some cases. Brawl for certain, Smash 4 patched the worst stuff out aside from Bayonetta, but still.

Ultimate is balanced, has a huge cast, there's not one character who's completely dominant (Aegis comes closest so far), there's just one player who's very dominant and he's playing a character that some people don't even think is High Tier, namely Byleth...

Just take a moment to contemplate that, a Byleth player is the king pin of Smash Ultimate.

That's reasonably well balanced.
Sheik and Falcon are more than viable, and Pikachu has had some solid placements. Regardless, by "[copying] Melee's gameplay," I didn't mean copying movesets wholesale.
Has anyone else hear heard the rumor that Bandai Namco is supposedly developing a new Killer Instinct for Microsoft? If that game ends up doing well, I think it would really help the odds of a KI character in Smash. Bandai has been working on Smash for a while now and Microsoft has a really good relationship with Nintendo. From what I’m hearing, Microsoft wants to push Killer Instinct as X-Box’s fighting game series similar to Smash on Nintendo and Street Fighter for Sony. It would be very fitting for Smash because KI was once positioned as Nintendo’s fighter before Smash was created.

Here is MaximillianDood’s discussion on the rumor for anyone interested:
Killer Instinct's devs did a fantastic job. Why would they switch to Bamco?
 

osby

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There is some janky bull**** in Melee, but the core gameplay and physics are superior to its succesors'.

Opinions are easily distinguishable from facts. I shouldn't have to label them as such. Besides, I don't see you admonishing anyone for speaking in that manner when they agree with your opinions.
Great, now we have Ben Shapiro in the chat.
 

Shroob

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No one's forcing casual players to lab combos. They can play however they want. Button mashers can and do have fun playing everything from Melee to Xrd. Furthermore, there are levels of skill past button mashing that I would still categorize as casual.
And yet a lot of fighting games are starting to add in easy combo options and simple inputs because they realize that casuals don't wanna have to learn stuff like half-circle or dragon punch. Yeah, people can just mash, but just mashing isn't how you pull off the cool ****. People ain't gonna learn how to do **** like quarter circle forward, but if you add in stuff like down down down heavy punch that can be input instead? They'll do that because it's legions easier to pull off. Hell, pretty sure that Ryu and Ken follow the exact same design philosophy in Smash.

Codecs and Palutena's Guidance are not what I consider significant character interaction.
I disagree heavily.

I played Melee for an hour or two several times a week after school at my friend's house, mostly with items off, and (despite what I might have thought at the time) I was only playing at a casual level of skill. Items can be fun, but they're hardly necessary for a fighting game to appeal to casual players. There are casual players of tons of fighting games without items. That should be uncontroversial.
Just like my own example, this is subjective. And I also said that items aren't necessary.

But they're fun.


And even Ludosity agrees that they're fun, and have toyed around with the idea of adding them in. Now, if it's too late is another issue entirely.
 
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ForsakenM

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Great, now we have Ben Shapiro in the chat.
Easy bud, this isn't the place for politics or higher caliber conversation.

Just keep it to a middle-school reading level. That's how Smash pro players seem to like them anyway.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Low blow jokes aside, I think we are in for another excellent year in terms of being Nintendo fans. First true 3D Kirby and it looks like it's packed with content, Advanced Wars 1+2 Remake, Splatoon 3, Bayonetta 3...that's already pretty spicy, but toss in a rumored new DK and merhaps even a Mario Kart 9, and boy we really are sittin pretty.

One thing I would like to bring up is the thought that Sakurai might sneak one last thing on us, just a minor one. The Definitive Edition of Ultimate is basically a guarantee, more of a 'when' than an 'if', and if you were to believe some of the folks on this forum that only 30% of buyers bought both Fighter's Passes then there will surely be even more big Smash money flowing in soon enough...but something keeps bothering me.

A lot of people in the 'Let's Get Killed By Way Of Nintendo Ninjas' game got absolutely bushwhacked, and yet there are a great many things we still haven't seen results for. Nintendo isn't the kind of company to just cancel plans for a game like Smash over leaks: they just cancel your life and career instead. There were a lot of names that came up consistently and a lot of people who got Fortune 500 freestyled on never had what they sacrificed themselves for to come true.

Now sure, one could say there was just a **** ton of false info out there, which there always is, but Nintendo wouldn't cause people to have PTSD whenever they here the Switch click sound effect over **** that was fake.

What this leads me to wonder is that, if we do get the Complete Edition...will they sneak in one last character into it? It's not impossible, and I think the discussion of who that would be is a lot more fun than dooming indie games with out words instead of pushing them forward with our actions or arguing over the definition of niche.

Personally, if I had to bet, it would be The Wah. It would be so easy to, and the marketing would be great: You can buy Ultimate and ALL it's DLC for less than what everyone else did, AND The Wah is there too? People would fly to the Nintendo Online store in droves to buy that ****, and you could just charge everyone else for simple one character just they did with Plant.

Who would you guys bet money on in this situation?
 

Shroob

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Easy bud, this isn't the place for politics or higher caliber conversation.

Just keep it to a middle-school reading level. That's how Smash pro players seem to like them anyway.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Low blow jokes aside, I think we are in for another excellent year in terms of being Nintendo fans. First true 3D Kirby and it looks like it's packed with content, Advanced Wars 1+2 Remake, Splatoon 3, Bayonetta 3...that's already pretty spicy, but toss in a rumored new DK and merhaps even a Mario Kart 9, and boy we really are sittin pretty.

One thing I would like to bring up is the thought that Sakurai might sneak one last thing on us, just a minor one. The Definitive Edition of Ultimate is basically a guarantee, more of a 'when' than an 'if', and if you were to believe some of the folks on this forum that only 30% of buyers bought both Fighter's Passes then there will surely be even more big Smash money flowing in soon enough...but something keeps bothering me.

A lot of people in the 'Let's Get Killed By Way Of Nintendo Ninjas' game got absolutely bushwhacked, and yet there are a great many things we still haven't seen results for. Nintendo isn't the kind of company to just cancel plans for a game like Smash over leaks: they just cancel your life and career instead. There were a lot of names that came up consistently and a lot of people who got Fortune 500 freestyled on never had what they sacrificed themselves for to come true.

Now sure, one could say there was just a ** ton of false info out there, which there always is, but Nintendo wouldn't cause people to have PTSD whenever they here the Switch click sound effect over ** that was fake.

What this leads me to wonder is that, if we do get the Complete Edition...will they sneak in one last character into it? It's not impossible, and I think the discussion of who that would be is a lot more fun than dooming indie games with out words instead of pushing them forward with our actions or arguing over the definition of niche.

Personally, if I had to bet, it would be The Wah. It would be so easy to, and the marketing would be great: You can buy Ultimate and ALL it's DLC for less than what everyone else did, AND The Wah is there too? People would fly to the Nintendo Online store in droves to buy that ****, and you could just charge everyone else for simple one character just they did with Plant.

Who would you guys bet money on in this situation?
A complete edition's definitely possible, and frankly should happen due to the price of the base game + both dlc packs adding up to like 100$.


Though I'm hesitant to say it'd bring any 'new' content with it. Unless said character would be DLC for the non-complete edition as well. This is the same guy who decided to scrap the Icies when one system could run it fine but the other couldn't.


Granted, then you run into issues that established Ultimate fans probably wouldn't buy it if the character was DLC for the current version of the game unless they hadn't already gotten the DLC previously. At that point, you'd basically be buying the same game twice.
 
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Diddy Kong

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I'm snickering here at some of these jabs like a little monkey with reading abilities and access to the internet.

Anyway yeah Nintendo seems to have a great year ahead. They're really ambitious, and I think it's cause they finally realize the worth of their IPs and how to appeal to different fans, surprisingly, they're even listening to their fans for once. Many great titles coming, many rumored to come to. Even a brand new console is rumored.

Also think a Smash Ultimate complete edition is inevitable, probably a launch title on this new rumored console. If we get that, I think a Deluxe version with added newcomers and stages and modes are out of the question, but a new Smash will be made soon after.

I don't think there will be a situation where they sneak in just one character though. And if they did, my bets are definitely not on Waluigi, but a 3rd party character they can more easily have access to. Or simply a few Echo Fighters.

That's in case of a simple fast port though, if they're remaking Ultimate as a Deluxe to explicitly add on to the content, I do see this as the next Smash, with a possible very long and strong DLC campaign following it. I could even see it happen they'll release a full new adventure mode as DLC, sold in chapters. In many ways Ultimate gives room for just this, and there are plenty of games where this already happens am sure on the other consoles.

So basically, I can see a port of Ultimate happen under two circumstances; one being a straight up port to the new system with all the added DLC, and that's that. The other is a port that acts as the new Smash, with newcomers, new stages, new move sets in some cases, new everything.
 

Gengar84

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No one's forcing casual players to lab combos. They can play however they want. Button mashers can and do have fun playing everything from Melee to Xrd. Furthermore, there are levels of skill past button mashing that I would still categorize as casual.

Codecs and Palutena's Guidance are not what I consider significant character interaction.

I played Melee for an hour or two several times a week after school at my friend's house, mostly with items off, and (despite what I might have thought at the time) I was only playing at a casual level of skill. Items can be fun, but they're hardly necessary for a fighting game to appeal to casual players. There are casual players of tons of fighting games without items. That should be uncontroversial.

There is some janky bull**** in Melee, but the core gameplay and physics are superior to its succesors'.

Opinions are easily distinguishable from facts. I shouldn't have to label them as such. Besides, I don't see you admonishing anyone for speaking in that manner when they agree with your opinions.

Are you suggesting that NASB would gain or retain more players by having more character interaction in trailers?

Mango seemed to genuinely enjoy it.

Sheik and Falcon are more than viable, and Pikachu has had some solid placements. Regardless, by "[copying] Melee's gameplay," I didn't mean copying movesets wholesale.

Killer Instinct's devs did a fantastic job. Why would they switch to Bamco?
I agree that the previous developers did great work with what little budget they were given. From what I’m hearing, they are busy working on other projects so Microsoft had to look elsewhere. Thankfully, I really enjoy Smash and Soul Calibur so Namco Bandai should be trustworthy to make a good game. Their only issue from what I’ve heard is their bad net code but I imagine Microsoft would help with that.
 
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Guynamednelson

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And yet a lot of fighting games are starting to add in easy combo options and simple inputs because they realize that casuals don't wanna have to learn stuff like half-circle or dragon punch. Yeah, people can just mash, but just mashing isn't how you pull off the cool *. People ain't gonna learn how to do * like quarter circle forward, but if you add in stuff like down down down heavy punch that can be input instead?
Successful fighter=/=one with easy inputs. Tekken 7 was still able to sell 8 million units while barely dumbing down the core gameplay, so you still gotta learn the EWGF timing to play the game's own main characters.
Now, if it's too late is another issue entirely.
I believe the Garfield update came with updates to the dummied-out items. The models were finalized, and the Turtles Blimp was even changed to the Krusty Krab blimp since April's already piloting it.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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As far as fighting games in general, part of the issue is also generational. The further away from the original context that early 90s fighters were born in, the trickier it is to overtly compel certain younger fans to try combo focused and button combination oriented gameplay. Smash is the best-selling fighting of all time, when 90% of the process for attacks is "move in direction and press a button". Granted, the crossover element also plays a part in Smash Ultimate's success, but it's an overall easier sell to a lot of the audience, especially when (as noted by so many already) there are contexts where even low skill fighters can have just via messing around with rules/stages. A lot of traditional fighters lack that hook.

In that sense, I almost wonder if traditional fighters could benefit from doing what difficulty oriented single player games have done in making the setting, aesthetics. story, (just something) so remarkably intriguing that the hypothetical person is willing to get their ass kicked for a while because there's an eventual reward beyond being good at multiplayer matches. If there's no casualization/party aspect to the gameplay that makes it fun even if you're not that good, then make it interesting enough that in the in game skill needed is something they're willing to work on because the world/characters are just that interesting.

Basically do for fighters what a Dark Souls or Hollow Knight's done did for combat oriented action games; they'll beat you down, but something about it will have you coming back.
 
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Sucumbio

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So, any game can be played casually. But not all games are designed with this in mind and especially to the lengths Smash goes to. Controls aside the existence of items and stage hazards ensures enough non-competitive elements in a given match to where everyone has a chance to win.

Tekken is not meant for casual play. But, it does have a history of some characters playing extremely well while in the hands of someone who just mashes. Baek, Eddie, heck even Jun or Nina, if you mash you're bound to overwhelm other casual players because their moveset contains strings like 121212, 343334333[inf], etc it's kinda braindead. Now obviously a seasoned player will dismantle anyone just mashing by simply side stepping at the right time or using a character with a counter. But if everyone playing is at the same level of casualness then it's pretty much just who can out-mash the other.

As for Melee's engine being superior that's a misleading argument. The reason why advanced techniques even happen in the game is because of the holes in the engine that weren't fleshed out beforehand leading to essentially glitched gameplay. That is not "superior."
 

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As for Melee's engine being superior that's a misleading argument. The reason why advanced techniques even happen in the game is because of the holes in the engine that weren't fleshed out beforehand leading to essentially glitched gameplay. That is not "superior."
Melee fans don't care that most of their favorite gameplay mechanics weren't intentional, and besides, Tekken is full of exploits deliberately left alone. It's why Kazuya can crouch dash in Smash.

Also, notice how I said MOST? The way jumping works in Melee vs. later Smashes is not a bug.
 

HyperSomari64

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I have a anecdote from when Ultimate was just named Smash Switch between 2017 and the 2018 E3:
I though that M.S. will change from Bandai Namco to Compile Heart of all developers to help with that game. (i was a stupid kid back then)
Should Sora Ltd. will replace Bandai Namco with another gaming powerhouse to co-develop Smash 6?
 

Sucumbio

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Melee fans don't care that most of their favorite gameplay mechanics weren't intentional, and besides, Tekken is full of exploits deliberately left alone. It's why Kazuya can crouch dash in Smash.
I dunno about full... The game itself changed with wall combos and stuff but crouch dashing isn't exactly broken or unintentional due to game engine oversight it is a legit move originally part of the Mishima characters moveset going back to the first game...

Also, notice how I said MOST? The way jumping works in Melee vs. later Smashes is not a bug.
This is true but like I mentioned with Tekken some things did change like the addition of ledge trumping in favor of ledge hogging. Or ledge autosnap. The way air dodging changed from melee... On and on. I just don't see how anyone can think melee is a superior fighting game engine when it's clear they're not talking about actual reasons the engine itself is better. If anything they're saying the outcome of the engine is "better" because of what it allows you to do and later engine designs restricted this freedom but I feel a fg engine is "better" the more uniform it applies its mechanics across the entire roster and whose advanced techniques are not the results of missed opportunities from play testing.
 

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I know absolutely nothing about Tekken, but would Jin work as a potential Kazuya "echo fighter" that's actually a semi-clone (similar to :ultken:)?
 

SKX31

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To dissect these one by one.


Fighting games in general are a niche markekt, something the FGC itself is well aware of, and why Fighting Games nowadays try to incorporate easier methods of play to try to rope in a more casual audience. Contrary to popular belief, casual players don't want to spend hours upon hours in the training mode to map out combos, they wanna mash buttons and see big damage, it's why a lot of games are adding in things like auto-combos specifically for that kind of market, and partially why Smash is such a big success. Sure, you can play at insane pro-gamer levels, or you can mash buttons and funny wahoo man punches.
I'm a bit late on this, but while I do agree I should note that a lot of casual players will inevitably run into those kinds of situations where they wonder "What the hell am I getting whupped by?". And that leads into another point - there'll always be a segment of the casual playerbase who looks to improve. Sure, probably not thousands of hours in Training mode, but it's not difficult to imagine that quite a few casual players want to get at least an edge on the others in the room if not follow those they see on Youtube. The clearest example I've seen of this in Smash is :ultluigi: : if you ever see a Luigi player, chances are pretty great the player will at least attempt the zero-to-death shenaningas. In one on one battles, at least.

(As an aside, I've noticed via Spectate Mode that casual one on one games tend to have its players at least lean a bit more towards competitive / tryhard - items show up much less there for instance - while it's mainly FFAs / doubles that host the casual funny wahoo man punches. Echoing the old "For Fun / For Glory" divide.)

Now, the "a segment of the casual population looking to improve (some of which become competitive or even pros in the process) while another just wants to see funny wahoo punches" is a general thing regardless of game, but it gets to a thorny question: How does one make sure that emerging tactics like lets say Luigi zero-to-death or projectile spammers do not become too much for a playerbase and it become alienating? It's extremely difficult since such tactics do not neccessarily show themselves in all skill levels: more experienced players will have much less of a hassle navigating projectile spam and countering those players' usually lacking adaptation skill, for instance. As a contrast a lot of casual Luigi players don't know how to execute the shenaningas (doesn't stop a lot of them from trying though).

I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai and co. nerfed projectiles' shield damage as a whole (patch 3.0, Joker's) partly because a lot of people were having trouble with projectile spam (ditto Min Min's shield damage later on, which to me is telling). They also nerfed Luigi's D-Air so it wouldn't spike as easily (and thus increase the zero-to-death's difficulty) around the same time,

Now, communicating counters to such tactics to players - like using ambigous movement to avoid projectile spam - can be rather tricky, and it doesn't help that Training Mode is sadly a bit too bare bones. You can't set a CPU to Side B without mods, so training vs. say Samus' Missiles, PK Fire or Blazing End is next-to-impossible in Training Mode. That is something I'd like to see them fix next game, alongside giving a more detailed command list. People won't need to spend thousands of hours in Training Mode labbing out comboes, no, but something that like that would help in situations they might encounter rather often.

Also, this video not only reinforces your main point, but also shows how I'd like Smash 6's Training Mode. Please integrate it with the tips system, allow people to practice specific scenarios instantly, and allow players to set the kind of goals they want to achieve:


Ultimate is balanced, has a huge cast, there's not one character who's completely dominant (Aegis comes closest so far), there's just one player who's very dominant and he's playing a character that some people don't even think is High Tier, namely Byleth...

Just take a moment to contemplate that, a Byleth player is the king pin of Smash Ultimate.

That's reasonably well balanced.
My only issues with Ultimate's balancing is that it can be same-y amongst the cast and platform interactions can be really limited, but that goes into the thorny question of depth.

Still, it's saying something where the currently-releasing top 100 players list includes not just the said Byleth player (and yeah, I'm 100 % sure he'll make it in when the last part, 25th to 1st, releases today), but also a distinct variety of characters, such as an Isabelle main.

As for Melee's engine being superior that's a misleading argument. The reason why advanced techniques even happen in the game is because of the holes in the engine that weren't fleshed out beforehand leading to essentially glitched gameplay. That is not "superior."
AsumSaus - who loves Melee to bits - has coined the entire process as (to paraphrase) "Hey, lets make something beautiful out of this broken disaster of a game" and it's pretty damn apt. Yes, depth can certainly be really alienating if people start to lean onto it a lot (just see the TV Tropes article on the Casual Competitive conflict), but the ability to experiment with games can be very good for a game's longevity. It's a tough balancing act, and one that is not always that clear cut.

Still though, the fact that it's still being talked about 20 years later and it has influenced the development of subsuquent Smash entries says a lot about Melee's legacy.

FWIW I think it's worth noting that Melee is pretty balanced amongst the viable characters - Samus, for example, has an even MU with Fox / Falco despite her being like, 11th - and most of the other characters can and have pulled off big upsets. Sure, it's unbalanced overall (poor Mr. Game and Watch - several of his aerials were initially mapped as B moves), but it's not bad for a game made in 2001 and just 13 months.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I know absolutely nothing about Tekken, but would Jin work as a potential Kazuya "echo fighter" that's actually a semi-clone (similar to :ultken:)?
If he was Devil Jin the whole time.
crouch dashing isn't exactly broken or unintentional due to game engine oversight it is a legit move originally part of the Mishima characters moveset going back to the first game...
Canceling crouch dashes into each other is the origin of Wavedashing in the first place.
 

osby

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I never understood while any flaw Melee might have is either charming or adds depth to the game while its fans nitpick the hell out of later games' shortcomings to prove its perceived superiority.

It feels like a big double standard born out of insecurity than anything.
 
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