Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Will]

I think the one thing I want more than any stage or character is a solid co-op and single player experience like Subspace Emissary. I don’t play competitively online and facing the AI over and over in basic matches can get a little tiring (though mods help a ton to keep them interesting). It would be nice to be able to play cooperatively with my brother again in some kind of story mode. Other returning modes like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish would be great too along with an improved Stage Builder.

On a competitive level, it would be nice to have the online modes adjusted a bit, too. Ultimate had a one-step forward, two-steps back kind of evolution with Elite Smash.

GSP in general made no sense to me. Especially since there was no official ranking, whatever GSP score you have may as well have been a random integer. For Glory’s Omega-locked stages turned into gambling that your specific preferences were paired up with the match, and that you won’t lose your Elite Smash status because you unluckily got paired with laggy Ness with Items on, 1 Stock, Stamina 100%, at New Pork City.

Don’t get me started on the lack of rollback netcode. I’d rather get Opossum started on it. I think they care more passionately about it than I do.

 

[Opossum]

On a competitive level, it would be nice to have the online modes adjusted a bit, too. Ultimate had a one-step forward, two-steps back kind of evolution with Elite Smash.

GSP in general made no sense to me. Especially since there was no official ranking, whatever GSP score you have may as well have been a random integer. For Glory’s Omega-locked stages turned into gambling that your specific preferences were paired up with the match, and that you won’t lose your Elite Smash status because you unluckily got paired with laggy Ness with Items on, 1 Stock, Stamina 100%, at New Pork City.

Don’t get me started on the lack of rollback netcode. I’d rather get Opossum started on it. I think they care more passionately about it than I do.

When did I become the guy for rollback rants? D:

(Genuinely all I have to say is that it's 100% better to have it than to not. Hell, if third party titles like NASB on Switch can have rollback, and NINTENDO OWNED SERIES like ARMS can, Smash has no excuse.)

 

[Will]

When did I become the guy for rollback rants? D:

(Genuinely all I have to say is that it's 100% better to have it than to not. Hell, if third party titles like NASB on Switch can have rollback, and NINTENDO OWNED SERIES like ARMS can, Smash has no excuse.)

I have a vague memory of you going off about it in 2019. I swear you’ve dedicated pages to the subject. Sorry. That’s just the way things are.

 

[Geno Boost]

Space Invaders gives us this music:

Theme from Space Invaders

Tomohiro Nishikado, 1978. Video capture from the digital archives of The Strong National Museum of Play’s International Center for the History of Electronic ...

www.youtube.com

Bubble Bobble gives us this music:

Bubble Bobble Music (NES) - Quest Begins / Main Theme

Track 2 / 12 (Complete Soundtrack)Bubble BobblePlatform: Nintendo Entertainment SystemComposer: Tadashi KimijimaYear: 1988 (US), 1990 (EU + AU)Tracklist:1 - ...

www.youtube.com

Puzzle Bobble SNES Normal Stage Music

Normal Stage Music for the SNES version of Puzzle Bobble

www.youtube.com

Check-AND-mate.

Well

let’s not forget groove coaster is spin-off space invaders rhythm game full of music

 

[Perkilator]

I think the one thing I want more than any stage or character is a solid co-op and single player experience like Subspace Emissary. I don’t play competitively online and facing the AI over and over in basic matches can get a little tiring (though mods help a ton to keep them interesting). It would be nice to be able to play cooperatively with my brother again in some kind of story mode. Other returning modes like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, and Race to the Finish would be great too along with an improved Stage Builder.

For me, as far as giving SSBU more substantial single-player content; WoL should’ve been a roguelike with enemies, Smash Run should’ve come back, and there should be a mode where you build your own Target Test and Classic Mode route and share them online.

 

[Speed Weed]

Space Invaders gives us this music:

Theme from Space Invaders

Tomohiro Nishikado, 1978. Video capture from the digital archives of The Strong National Museum of Play’s International Center for the History of Electronic ...

www.youtube.com

Bubble Bobble gives us this music:

Bubble Bobble Music (NES) - Quest Begins / Main Theme

Track 2 / 12 (Complete Soundtrack)Bubble BobblePlatform: Nintendo Entertainment SystemComposer: Tadashi KimijimaYear: 1988 (US), 1990 (EU + AU)Tracklist:1 - ...

www.youtube.com

Puzzle Bobble SNES Normal Stage Music

Normal Stage Music for the SNES version of Puzzle Bobble

www.youtube.com

Check-AND-mate.

We absolutely can.

They get added to Ultimate Deluxe.

Okay so while I agree that Bubble Bobble is the way to go, I'm gonna play devil's advocate here because Space Invaders does give us this

Invader GIRL!

Provided to YouTube by NexTone Inc.Invader GIRL! · ZUNTATA · 小塩広和 (ZUNTATA)Space Invaders Extreme 2 Audio ElementReleased on: 2010-05-12Auto-generated by You...

youtu.be

 

[fogbadge]

When did I become the guy for rollback rants? D:

(Genuinely all I have to say is that it's 100% better to have it than to not. Hell, if third party titles like NASB on Switch can have rollback, and NINTENDO OWNED SERIES like ARMS can, Smash has no excuse.)

do you need an excuse to not do something?

 

[Kirbeh]

Honestly if the next Smash has rollback netcode I'll be shocked. Pleasantly surprised to be sure, but shocked.

Getting Japanese devs to adopt it has been an ongoing thing for over a decade now, but Nintendo being the especially odd/stubborn one that goes off and does things at it's own pace makes me think they still won't do much for the online.

Their online is lagging (heh) behind everyone else in a multitude of ways so while I do hope/expect some improvement I'm not expecting much. They'll be playing catch up for a long while.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Honestly if the next Smash has rollback netcode I'll be shocked. Pleasantly surprised to be sure, but shocked.

Getting Japanese devs to adopt it has been an ongoing thing for over a decade now, but Nintendo being the especially odd/stubborn one that goes off and does things at it's own pace makes me think they still won't do much for the online.

Their online is lagging (heh) behind everyone else in a multitude of ways so while I do hope/expect some improvement I'm not expecting much. They'll be playing catch up for a long while.

I totally get we're you're coming from, but I don't 100% agree. First, Nintendo's next console is more than likely going to be way more powerful than the Switch, so adding Rollback will probably be much easier from the get go. This is why many third party games don't have rollback on Switch like DnF duel, Dragon ball fighterZ, and even Nickelodeon all star brawl have rollback netcode only for 1 vs 1 on Switch while other consoles have rollback for 4 players too. Also we know for a fact that Sakurai tried to get rollback netcode, but there was too many negative effects. So we know that despite his seemingly "hate" for online and competitive stuff, we know this his something he have in mind so he could add it in a later game.

 

[Will]

do you need an excuse to not do something?

When you’re Bandai Namco adding rollback late into the life cycle of other Bandai Namco fighting games, except Smash Bros., yes?

 

[Opossum]

do you need an excuse to not do something?

When something is a basic requirement for a fighting game with online functionality, yes, there better be a damn good reason.

 

[fogbadge]

When you’re Bandai Namco adding rollback late into the life cycle of other Bandai Namco fighting games, except Smash Bros., yes?

When something is a basic requirement for a fighting game with online functionality, yes, there better be a damn good reason.

ok then

 

[Kirbeh]

I totally get we're you're coming from, but I don't 100% agree. First, Nintendo's next console is more than likely going to be way more powerful than the Switch, so adding Rollback will probably be much easier from the get go. This is why many third party games don't have rollback on Switch like DnF duel, Dragon ball fighterZ, and even Nickelodeon all star brawl have rollback netcode only for 1 vs 1 on Switch while other consoles have rollback for 4 players too. Also we know for a fact that Sakurai tried to get rollback netcode, but there was too many negative effects. So we know that despite his seemingly "hate" for online and competitive stuff, we know this his something he have in mind so he could add it in a later game.

I've heard complaints about his stance on the competitive scene, but this is honestly the first I'm hearing of people thinking he hates online.

To be clear on my stance, I don't at all think Sakurai is against having functional online, but I can absolutely see Nintendo sticking to delay based netcode because it's "good enough"/serviceable.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I'm somewhat not that worried about cuts because I really don't think any of my MW will be missing. Little Mac is first party and Punch-Out!! is a hit series by Nintendo, there's really no reason to remove him. Mega Man and Simon were popular fan requests, so I doubt they'd remove them, especially when looking at the companies that own them.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm somewhat not that worried about cuts because I really don't think any of my MW will be missing. Little Mac is first party and Punch-Out!! is a hit series by Nintendo, there's really no reason to remove him. Mega Man and Simon were popular fan requests, so I doubt they'd remove them, especially when looking at the companies that own them.

I am a bit worried myself. My favorite Smash character is Sephiroth and I’m not terribly confident in his chances with a whole new game. My next favorite is Ganondorf and while I don’t see him getting cut, I think this particular design will be for his Tears of the Kingdom design. He’s pretty cool in TotK too but Ultimate is my favorite of his designs.

 

[Sucumbio]

I've heard complaints about his stance on the competitive scene, but this is honestly the first I'm hearing of people thinking he hates online.

To be clear on my stance, I don't at all think Sakurai is against having functional online, but I can absolutely see Nintendo sticking to delay based netcode because it's "good enough"/serviceable.

Yeah he actually said something along the lines of he doesn't see the value in playing online I think it was in one of his design YouTubes.

 

[Louie G.]

Little Mac is first party and Punch-Out!! is a hit series by Nintendo, there's really no reason to remove him.

I do think Little Mac will return, but he does linger somewhere on the bubble in comparison to other first party series with more activity on recent Nintendo consoles and more existing content in Smash. As far as legacy characters go he's pretty much near the top, in my opinion. Punch Out gets a lot of nods across Nintendo's classic branding (see: NSO, it got some Switch icons... one of which I've been using for a bit now) and is one of the most frequent to pop up in WarioWare. Being a central reference in the Mario Movie probably doesn't hurt its case either.

I do fear for Little Mac, albeit only slightly, because there's an itching anxiety that it would be just my luck to have the character who I wanted more than anyone in Smash to be snatched away. And Punch-Out has really been dealt the short end of the stick in representing additional characters, music and such from the series where it kinda strides the line with some of the retro / hardware series for a lack of meaningful content. So losing Little Mac would be a travesty but losing that universe's worth of content would be on the relatively lesser end of net loss. My hope is that we can at least get a fun Assist Trophy next game from one of the enemy boxers, it really bugs me that they haven't tackled this yet.

My favorite Smash character is Sephiroth and I’m not terribly confident in his chances with a whole new game.

I think Sephiroth made a great lasting impression that would at least justify selling him as DLC again, if they have no qualms about doing such. But I also think there's a chance, however slim, that when negotiating with SE next game they just funnel their effort into getting all the FF7 content back and licensing out Cloud and Sephiroth together. And then Hero, or some new SE content or whatever would be DLC. I do think in any case Cloud would be the top priority to bring back, but I could see them switching gears toward Hero too - I feel like DQ might be easier to work out these days. Square's situation is maybe the most difficult of the third parties to read, because we can assume they'll still be involved in some fashion but they don't have such an obvious overwhelming number one priority (Sonic, Pac-Man) nor that demonstrated ease of cooperation (Castlevania, Mega Man) that make it such a slam dunk. So we could see any number of possibilities or combinations, although we can assume Sephiroth is the odd one out for most of them.

 

[Gengar84]

You know what I think would be pretty cool but I don’t see happening again after Ganondorf in Melee? Off series semiclones or echoes. Little Mac, for example, would make an awesome base for Hitmonchan, Balrog, or Vi among others. That’s one thing I love about mods because there are a lot of Smash movesets that feel at least somewhat right on a completely different character. In a way, that’s not too different than what we already have with Mii outfits, but using variants for other characters would at least feel more like you’re using the character rather than a Mii in cosplay.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly I'm not worried about Little Mac. I think he'd return even in a fairly dire amount of cuts.

Massively popular fan request in the west, popular character casually, historic franchise that, while dormant, still gets tons of respect, and an easy to make moveset with no majorly intense gimmicks on the dev side, all while offering a unique playstyle.

I'd be genuinely shocked if he ever got cut.

 

[Gengar84]

Honestly I'm not worried about Little Mac. I think he'd return even in a fairly dire amount of cuts.

Massively popular fan request in the west, popular character casually, historic franchise that, while dormant, still gets tons of respect, and an easy to make moveset with no majorly intense gimmicks on the dev side, all while offering a unique playstyle.

I'd be genuinely shocked if he ever got cut.

Yeah, I feel like he’s pretty safe. It would be great if they could rebalance him a bit and make him at least comparable to the next worst aerial character and scale back his ground power a bit to compensate. He should still be weak in the air and strong on the ground but probably not to such extremes.

 

[Garteam]

Rollback is an incredibly obvious addition, but I do think people sometimes overplay how important rollback would be to the commercial success of the next Smash. I'd genuinely be surprised if having or not having rollback influences whether 1% of Ultimate's player base moves on to the next entry. The roster is and will always be Smash's biggest selling point. If a global pandemic where local play was not feasible for the vast majority of players was not enough to slow Ultimate's commercial success down, good netcode is not going to save a Smash game with a poor selection of fighters. "The next Smash needs rollback to be successful/well-received" has almost become the new "The next Smash needs to play like Melee to be successful/well-received" in terms of things that the core Smash fanbase falsely fixate on.

I would be curious to hear why Sakurai wasn't able to implement rollback in Ultimate, though. My guess is getting rollback off the ground for free-for-alls or any matches with dynamic stages or items just wasn't possible. The fact that Ultimate's online is based on user's rulesets rather than uniform, pre-set rulesets probably made the entire operation unfeasible. For Glory Chads stay winning

 

[Louie G.]

Mega Man and Simon were popular fan requests, so I doubt they'd remove them

Something that has stuck out to me for a while is that Sakurai said something akin to "Simon is FINALLY here" during his showcase. I don't know if that was a bit off course from the direct translation, but it confirmed to me that Castlevania is a series that Sakurai seems to believe is a natural fit. And it just kinda feels like Castlevania has joined Street Fighter in crossing over with a whole bunch of stuff - clear enthusiasm to keep around on both ends of the spectrum. Out of every new third party IP in Ultimate, Castlevania is the one absolute no brainer mainstay.


Which does make me wonder though, and it's a question I've been meaning to toss out there and gauge for a bit. Which other third parties new to Ultimate are you guys especially confident will return? I think too often when we have to condense third parties we essentially revert to the old guard, while I think are too easy and too popular not to bring back, or gets overlooked sometimes and may have had the most lavish display of content out of anyone, from a series very near and dear to Sakurai's heart. And then from like, the biggest game in the world. In my opinion the ones I mentioned are in pretty solid shape to return, but it's still at risk of being a bit too generous toward our total number of base game third parties. And I'm not quite sure what that looks like yet. There's also who is practically "in house" via Namco, so I just don't know how to begin chipping away at this.

I think the one I'll particularly double down on, after Simon, is that I believe Banjo will return. Everybody involved in that negotiation seems to have been thrilled to make it happen, Microsoft has continued the generosity by allowing Rare games to show up on NSO instead of simply selling them on the eshop. I think from this point forward they'll insist on this display of goodwill and well, good PR. Also, to the chagrin of some players, they're one of the most simple DLC characters. I can't imagine they're especially taxing to develop compared to other DLC / third parties with big gimmicks and game-changing quirks. Popular, cheap, relatively easy to develop, there's really no foreseeable obstacle IMO.

 

[Garteam]

Something that has stuck out to me for a while is that Sakurai said something akin to "Simon is FINALLY here" during his showcase. I don't know if that was a bit off course from the direct translation, but it confirmed to me that Castlevania is a series that Sakurai seems to believe is a natural fit. And it just kinda feels like Castlevania has joined Street Fighter in crossing over with a whole bunch of stuff - clear enthusiasm to keep the around on both ends of the spectrum. Out of every new third party IP in Ultimate, Castlevania is the one absolute no brainer mainstay.


Which does make me wonder though, and it's a question I've been meaning to toss out there and gauge for a bit. Which other third parties new to Ultimate are you guys especially confident will return? I think too often when we have to condense third parties we essentially revert to the old guard, while I think are too easy and too popular not to bring back, or gets overlooked sometimes and may have had the most lavish display of content out of anyone, from a series very near and dear to Sakurai's heart. And then from like, the biggest game in the world. In my opinion the ones I mentioned are in pretty solid shape to return, but it's still at risk of being a bit too generous toward our total number of base game third parties. And I'm not quite sure what that looks like yet. There's also who is practically "in house" via Namco, so I just don't know how to begin chipping away at this.

I think the one I'll particularly double down on, after Simon, is that I believe Banjo will return. Everybody involved in that negotiation seems to have been thrilled to make it happen, Microsoft has continued the generosity by allowing Rare games to show up on NSO instead of simply selling them on the eshop. I think from this point forward they'll insist on this display of goodwill and well, good PR. Also, to the chagrin of some players, they're one of the most simple DLC characters. I can't imagine they're especially taxing to develop compared to other DLC / third parties with big gimmicks and game-changing quirks. Popular, cheap, relatively easy to develop, there's really no foreseeable obstacle IMO.

I'd also add your list. He's been one of Ultimate's most well-received newcomers in both concept and execution and Atlus seems to license Persona 5 to just about anyone. The only way I couldn't see Joker returning is if Atlus stonewalls Nintendo and will only license the Persona 6 protagonist, instead. However, that doesn't seem to fit with Atlus' MO, so I'd say Joker is safe.

's base game inclusion begins and ends at whether or not Koichi Sugiyama's estate is reasonable in letting DQ music in Smash. If they are, Hero's probably in. If they're not, Hero is DLC. I guess this could also be worked around by exclusively using tracks from DQXII that Sugiyama doesn't own the rights to, but that would be kind of weird and not something I see Sakurai going for. I think he'd rather just save Hero for DLC and get the full range of rights in that scenario.

's inclusion will be dependent on how Disney's stock is/was riding at the time that negotiations for Smash 6 begins/begun. That being said, Disney's general approach to their IP makes me think Sora is pretty much DLC or bust. I can't see the Mouse not trying to those sweet, sweet DLC sales.

 

[Sucumbio]

I would be curious to hear why Sakurai wasn't able to implement rollback in Ultimate, though. My guess is getting rollback off the ground for free-for-alls or any matches with dynamic stages or items just wasn't possible. The fact that Ultimate's online is based on user's rulesets rather than uniform, pre-set rulesets probably made the entire operation unfeasible. For Glory Chads stay winning

Kinda sorta it's basically the architecture was revamped in 4 and optimized for Ultimate but is still Brawl's NWC architecture and upgraded each time and that's a problem that can't be fixed with "just make it rollback" so instead they went in deep on universal buffering mechanics. The game still works better than ever tho so maybe the new game and hardware will be able to take advantage of it and design a game that has rollback in it ready and just expand on lobby making more and pls get rid of GSP lol

 

[Will]

Honestly I'm not worried about Little Mac. I think he'd return even in a fairly dire amount of cuts.

Massively popular fan request in the west, popular character casually, historic franchise that, while dormant, still gets tons of respect, and an easy to make moveset with no majorly intense gimmicks on the dev side, all while offering a unique playstyle.

I'd be genuinely shocked if he ever got cut.

Is it wrong for me to ask for a better recovery next game?

I don’t ****ing care if “you ain’t an air fighter, Mac”, at least I used to be able to keep using my side special in the air if I got hit out of it. You don’t know how privileged Mac mains had it in Smash 4. I’ve said it 100 times, that one nerf made me drop him. I mean I never stopped using him. But it hurts!

 

[Sucumbio]

Is it wrong for me to ask for a better recovery next game?

I don’t ****ing care if “you ain’t an air fighter, Mac”, at least I used to be able to keep using my side special in the air if I got hit out of it. You don’t know how privileged Mac mains had it in Smash 4. I’ve said it 100 times, that one nerf made me drop him. I mean I never stopped using him. But it hurts!

Knowing this and me never using him until Ultimate makes me even more salty lol

 

[Gengar84]

Is it wrong for me to ask for a better recovery next game?

I don’t ****ing care if “you ain’t an air fighter, Mac”, at least I used to be able to keep using my side special in the air if I got hit out of it. You don’t know how privileged Mac mains had it in Smash 4. I’ve said it 100 times, that one nerf made me drop him. I mean I never stopped using him. But it hurts!

I miss Ganondorf’s recovery trick in Melee where you could cancel out of an aerial Wizard’s Foot for another jump (and I think even another up special, it’s hard to remember). That really helped a lot. The Wizard’s Foot move in Melee seemed to have a lot better knockout power than it does now as well.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You know what I think would be pretty cool but I don’t see happening again after Ganondorf in Melee? Off series semiclones or echoes.

Completely against that.

Ganondorf is the only one we've ever had, and that should have never happened.

Rollback is an incredibly obvious addition

The problem with rollback on Switch is technical. Switch is underpowered compared other consoles, and that impacts how well rollback works on it.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that Smash can have 3 or 4 players online, which further complicates the use of rokkback.

 

[Gengar84]

Completely against that.

Ganondorf is the only one we've ever had, and that should have never happened.

The problem with rollback on Switch is technical. Switch is underpowered compared other consoles, and that impacts how well rollback works on it.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that Smash can have 3 or 4 players online, which further complicates the use of rokkback.

Yeah, I’m a bit mixed on it as well honestly. If it were a one time thing just to get more representation like Mii outfits, I’m all for it but if it ends up preventing us from ever getting a fully realized version of the character, like Ganondorf, I totally agree. I think it partially depends on the characters chosen. If they were probably never getting in under their own merits and the existing movesets fit them well enough, I actually greatly prefer that to Mii costumes to fill the same purpose. Mii costumes are probably less faithful to any potential character’s moveset than whatever the most fitting existing character could be that they would be built off.

 

[Sucumbio]

I felt like dissecting some of these nifty trivia about Assist Trophies

Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle are the only Assist Trophies in the series to become playable characters in later installments.

This bodes well for several AT. Little Mac was highly requested, and was able to be implemented. Dark Samus is cool to have but I wish they'd had time to give her a bit more variety say like the 3 Star Fox reps. I don't know enough about AC to criticize Isabelle or Villager but they're one of my hardest matchups regardless of who I use lol.

Isaac and Gray Fox are the only Assist Trophies to skip an installment in the franchise and return in a later game. Interestingly, both were referred to as "newcomer" Assist Trophies on the Ultimate website.

Interesting so since Snake came back so did his Assist, makes sense. Wonder why Isaac missed one...

Andross, Devil, Dr. Wright, Hammer Bro, Jeff, Knuckle Joe, Lyn, Metroid, Nintendog, Samurai Goroh, Shadow, Starfy, and Waluigi are the only Assist Trophies to appear in all three games since their introduction in Brawl.

And of a those besides Waluigi I've only ever seriously entertained Lyn, and Shadow and for a little bit Knuckle Joe. Lyn has great appeal to me and especially now that I've played her game so I am hoping to see her. And obviously Waluigi is overdue imho.

The Yoshi and Pokémon series are the only "Original 10" universes that have never had any Assist Trophies.
However, the Pokémon series uses Poké Balls, making the Yoshi series the only one in the "Original 10" that has never had any item-based assist characters whatsoever.

Really hmm what AT could Yoshi have??

The other universes that have never had any Assist Trophies are Ice Climber, Game & Watch, R.O.B., Wii Fit, Mii, Duck Hunt, Final Fantasy, and the DLC universes in Ultimate, except for ARMS.

Well..

1. Condor
2. G and W thing? Lol no idea never had one
3. R.O.B. he IS the character so makes sense there isn't one but maybe this is how NES Zapper makes it in?
4. Wii Fit uh no clue
5. Mii lolwut
6. Dunk Hunt OH could tie in with the Zapper
7. Seriously lol there's way too much even just from FF7 but something Chocobo imo
8. DLC except ARMS... Man that's a whole other section lol DQ could have had something... FF again, eh 3H specific I guess but not sure what oh a golem that'd been a cool AT and boss too

The Mega Man franchise has the most Assist Trophies out of any third-party franchise at 3, with Elec Man appearing in Smash 4 and Zero and Wily Capsule appearing in Ultimate.

And of those I say Zero for playable, please Nintendo!

In the GameCube preview issue of Electronic Gaming Monthly, the Super Smash Bros. Melee article comments that Nintendo originally tried to implement Assist Trophies in Melee. The only trophy concept they gave details on was one that would release the ducks from Duck Hunt to fly around the stage and interfere with the fighters.

Nice.

In the English version of the Super Smash Bros. Direct, Masahiro Sakurai was mistranslated as saying that Assist Trophies would "figure into All-Star Mode" in some fashion in Super Smash Bros. 4. However, Assist Trophies ended up playing no role in the mode, and they do not even spawn as regular items within battles. In Japanese, Sakurai was instead referring to the "all-star" cast as opposed to the mode itself.

OK...

Prior to the Ultimate 2.0.0 update, if two Isabelles used Fishing Rod to grab onto an Assist Trophy, one would grab on, and the other would not; however, the result would be the former infinitely spawning the same Assist Trophy until she got hit.

uh... Hahaha

Not counting Rathalos, who is fought as a boss, Rodin, Samurai Goroh, Phosphora, and Spring Man are the only Assist Trophy characters never to appear in any Spirit Battle. Out of all of these, Spring Man is the only one whose Spirit has a spirit battle, as Rodin, Samurai Goroh, and Phosphora are all summon-exclusive.

I didn't get much into Spirits so this is all interesting I'm guessing lol but I do hope MH comes back with more content and even a character.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle are the only Assist Trophies in the series to become playable characters in later installments.

This bodes well for several AT.

Not necessarily.

This only shows that there is precedence for Assist Trophy promotions but it's in no way meant to imply a promotion is necessary.

Could it happen for the next game? Yes.

Must it happen? That's where we hit the area of actual speculation because there's really no rule that says a promotion is mandatory. Doubly so when Poke Balls, which serve a similar purpose to ATs, have only had a single promotion in Smash's entire history through Charizard.
Granted, that's because Pokemon usually only pick from the most recent Gen so the Poke Ball summons never had a chance but still

Also, several of them? Which ones? I'm just curious.

 

[Sucumbio]

Not necessarily.

This only shows that there is precedence for Assist Trophy promotions but it's in no way meant to imply a promotion is necessary.

Could it happen for the next game? Yes.

Must it happen? That's where we hit the area of actual speculation because there's really no rule that says a promotion is mandatory. Doubly so when Poke Balls, which serve a similar purpose to ATs, have only had a single promotion in Smash's entire history through Charizard.
Granted, that's because Pokemon usually only pick from the most recent Gen so the Poke Ball summons never had a chance but still

Also, several of them? Which ones? I'm just curious.

I agree it's not truly prescriptive I do feel though as if 3 is a good number and that Ultimate opening the flood gates so to speak into an arena where so many AT can get hit, have pretty good AI and hit boxes etc as something like dev testing for the next game. I've personally sunk a lot of Faith in Alucard (pst, Please Nintendo!).

 

[Gengar84]

Not necessarily.

This only shows that there is precedence for Assist Trophy promotions but it's in no way meant to imply a promotion is necessary.

Could it happen for the next game? Yes.

Must it happen? That's where we hit the area of actual speculation because there's really no rule that says a promotion is mandatory. Doubly so when Poke Balls, which serve a similar purpose to ATs, have only had a single promotion in Smash's entire history through Charizard.
Granted, that's because Pokemon usually only pick from the most recent Gen so the Poke Ball summons never had a chance but still

Also, several of them? Which ones? I'm just curious.

Charizard started out as a Pokeball summon and later became playable. As for potential Assist Trophy upgrades to playable, I think Zero has a pretty decent chance and he’s probably the one I’d like to see the most.

 

[Louie G.]

I'd also add your list. He's been one of Ultimate's most well-received newcomers in both concept and execution and Atlus seems to license Persona 5 to just about anyone. The only way I couldn't see Joker returning is if Atlus stonewalls Nintendo and will only license the Persona 6 protagonist, instead. However, that doesn't seem to fit with Atlus' MO, so I'd say Joker is safe.

I've been reflecting on this too, I'm not sure it's been quite enough to tip me over the edge and prioritize Joker over some of these other characters but I do think we've been underestimating him a little bit. Joker is a choice that has only made more sense as time went on - even on the cusp of an eventual Persona 6, I imagine the Phantom Thieves will remain relevant characters to Atlus seeing how long they've been managing to squeeze new content and spinoffs out of Persona 5, Joker will probably go down as the Cloud of the Persona series if he hasn't already taken up that mantle.

This is just where it becomes difficult, because inevitably some of the third parties need to get cut loose. Joker always felt like an obvious one-off given the transitional nature of his series and being a bit more detached from more concrete history of ongoing relevance to Nintendo, but like I said it's just kind of aged especially well and Persona clicked with the Smash fanbase in a really unprecedented way.

's inclusion will be dependent on how Disney's stock is/was riding at the time that negotiations for Smash 6 begins/begun. That being said, Disney's general approach to their IP makes me think Sora is pretty much DLC or bust. I can't see the Mouse not trying to those sweet, sweet DLC sales.

Sora has a lot in common with my assessment of Banjo, but I don't anticipate Disney having the same good will that Microsoft has been practicing. I think they will both come back, but Sora would almost definitely have to wait until DLC. I wonder how long throughout the series they would be willing to keep this up if Disney never buckles in and allows them to just add him to base. Maybe if they add Riku? Lol

And then we have to assume the DLC band-aid won't work for everybody. We're gonna have to introduce new characters after all, so the space for returning characters would likely be limited... like, Sora is an obvious exceptional case, since he's so massively popular, but I'm not sure who else would get precedent here.

 

[Gengar84]

I've been reflecting on this too, I'm not sure it's been quite enough to tip me over the edge and prioritize Joker over some of these other characters but I do think we've been underestimating him a little bit. Joker is a choice that has only made more sense as time went on - even on the cusp of an eventual Persona 6, I imagine the Phantom Thieves will remain relevant characters to Atlus seeing how long they've been managing to squeeze new content and spinoffs out of Persona 5, Joker will probably go down as the Cloud of the Persona series if he hasn't already taken up that mantle.

This is just where it becomes difficult, because inevitably some of the third parties need to get cut loose. Joker always felt like an obvious one-off given the transitional nature of his series and being a bit more detached from more concrete history of ongoing relevance to Nintendo, but like I said it's just kind of aged especially well and Persona clicked with the Smash fanbase in a really unprecedented way.



Sora has a lot in common with my assessment of Banjo, but I don't anticipate Disney having the same good will that Microsoft has been practicing. I think they will both come back, but Sora would almost definitely have to wait until DLC. I wonder how long throughout the series they would be willing to keep this up if Disney never buckles in and allows them to just add him to base. Maybe if they add Riku? Lol

If we get a second Kingdom Hearts character, I’d love to see either Ansem from KH1 or Xemnas from KH2. I love the designs of both characters, particularly Xemnas’s white coat outfit, and I think it would be fun to see a major villain from the series.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's talk about the echoes that we have.

are both veterans and were a part of everyone is here. They were always planned to be included.

are third party characters who would need licensing. They were also included in CGI trailers with their own taglines. This all implies they were planned from an early stage of development.

That leaves . How early/late do you think these three were included? Were they last minute? Were they always meant to be included?

 

[Will]

Let's talk about the echoes that we have.

are both veterans and were a part of everyone is here. They were always planned to be included.

are third party characters who would need licensing. They were also included in CGI trailers with their own taglines. This all implies they were planned from an early stage of development.

That leaves . How early/late do you think these three were included? Were they last minute? Were they always meant to be included?

My headcanon is that Daisy was the only newcomer first party Echo who was planned early, probably alongside Ken and Richter, to promote Echo Fighters alongside Lucina and Pittoo. That’s five Echoes off the bat.

Chrom and Dark Samus definitely gave me a vibe that their inclusion wasn’t until later in development. Perhaps they reviewed the assets they already had on hand and agreed they could create an Echo fighter in time for Box Theory to stay accurate. It’s also probably why Robin’s Final Smash wasn’t changed.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Let's talk about the echoes that we have.

are both veterans and were a part of everyone is here. They were always planned to be included.

are third party characters who would need licensing. They were also included in CGI trailers with their own taglines. This all implies they were planned from an early stage of development.

That leaves . How early/late do you think these three were included? Were they last minute? Were they always meant to be included?

We know Daisy was revealed right before Ridley was, so I think she was always planned, to give us a new Mario character. I think her chance of returning are high, even if she is a clone.

I think that Dark Samus was the last minute addition. I’d give Dark Samus’s chances of staying being possible, if Prime 4 could include DS in some way.

Chrom was planned to be in Smash 4, but was scrapped due to being ‘not unique enough’. He’ll certainly be on the chopping block for the next game.

We will certainly get new clones next game, even if the character they’re based of isn’t in Smash yet. It’s inevitable.

 

[Noipoi]

I’m still baffled we didn’t get Shadow as an echo

 

[Sucumbio]

Let's talk about the echoes that we have.

... guessing she was late addition. Based on really not much more than she's so similar to Peach they really could just almost work as a separate bunch of suits like Wario in Brawl but because of the differences there's plenty of reasons to keep investing in her

... Is so weird to me lol he's Roy with Ike's up b on the surface but he's actually very different than Roy (who is very different from Marth OMG) and his recovery not having a horizontal option like Marth charged B, Ike QD, etc anyway I love him and l will be sad if he goes. I'm assuming was planned early.

I said this from a other post but I love her aesthetics just wish her moves varied a bit more.

Like giving her a quick turn shot like at the start of this:

I also think they went in knowing this upgrade was happening.