Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Will]

StH was Sega trying to make an edgy, cool version of Sonic. And Sonic was already them trying to be edgy and cool. And it was the laughing stock of the internet.

You can be forgiven for thinking it was cool if you were 10 when you played it. But not for not realizing now that 10-year-old you only thought that because they were 10.

I have no idea what kind of gibberish you were going on about at the end but none of that takes away that Shadow using a gun still looks cool and is cool to me. And that’s the only thing that matters. SMG for Shadows Neutral Special

 

[DarthEnderX]

Certain decisions in the 2000's reek of experiments that didn't necessarily play to the brand's strengths

Nintendo: "DK's main villain is basically just a poor-man's copy of Bowser. See if Retro can come up with something a little more creative."

DK Fans: "We want our discount Bowser back!"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, I loved Shadow the Hedgehog. And I loved it when I was in my 20's when it first came out. It was a fun romp and he was hilariously edgy. Considering his official character music, he was only a bit more exaggerated than in Adventure 2. I'd have been annoyed at the guns... if he didn't grow up in a military space station. It's not even odd he'd do whatever it takes to win, a notable characterization all the way used in Sonic X. He doesn't have qualms about, well, using anything. The guns were also rather fun to use anyway.

Main oddity is how the humans were just as beefy as the Black Aliens, anyway. Shadow's facing his own kind, so him not being nearly as strong against them is understandable. Using guns to help boost his power? Eh, it works. ...But then, as noted, the other stuff he fights doesn't have the excuse of alien blood. So while it has some merit, it's not followed through well enough(though the giant mechs make sense to have more health, a holdover from the Heroes design).

 

[Dinoman96]

Nintendo: "DK's main villain is basically just a poor-man's copy of Bowser. See if Retro can come up with something a little more creative."

DK Fans: "We want our discount Bowser back!"

That's funny cuz Retro ended up making discount K. Rool in Tropical Freeze

So much for being "a little more creative"

 

[Gengar84]

That's funny cuz Retro ended up making discount K. Rool in Tropical Freeze

So much for being "a little more creative"

I like both K. Rool and Lord Frederick but I agree it’s a bit weird to compliment Retro for being so creative when Frederick is very clearly based on K. Rool. He’s probably actually a great choice for a potential echo character.

 

[Geno Boost]

King hippo is better echo for king k. Rool just change the specials then it will pretty much fit

 

[Gorgonzales]

If we're gonna talk about echos, I'm going to go out and say that I hope the next Smash simply doesn't have any unless they're distinct enough to encourage a separate playstyle from the original, like Ken. Echoes that change only 1 or 2 little things, if at all, feel like roster bloat and I'd much rather not have them. It makes 100% completing stuff like Classic mode tedious too.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I like both K. Rool and Lord Frederick but I agree it’s a bit weird to compliment Retro for being so creative when Frederick is very clearly based on K. Rool. He’s probably actually a great choice for a potential echo character.

TBF, he's a viking, and vikings are cool.

 

[Gengar84]

TBF, he's a viking, and vikings are cool.

Can’t argue there. I also like snow and ice themed characters.

 

[UserKev]

If we're gonna talk about echos, I'm going to go out and say that I hope the next Smash simply doesn't have any unless they're distinct enough to encourage a separate playstyle from the original, like Ken. Echoes that change only 1 or 2 little things, if at all, feel like roster bloat and I'd much rather not have them. It makes 100% completing stuff like Classic mode tedious too.

I feel the same way. Ultimate will undoubtedly be the peak of Echoes in terms of necessarily. I only really want one more potential Echoe relating to Yoshi and I can savor in closure. I actually have a genuinely hard time even listing more Echoes beyond the already playable without a punishable headache.

 

[fogbadge]

I also like snow and ice themed characters.

Me too

 

[chocolatejr9]

Can’t argue there. I also like snow and ice themed characters.

Snow and water, my two elemental preferences. Everything becomes better when you add them.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Can’t argue there. I also like snow and ice themed characters.

I'm glad the Ice Climbers got in when they did because Smash would've had a total lack in cryomancers for the longest time.

 

[Gengar84]

I'm glad the Ice Climbers got in when they did because Smash would've had a total lack in cryomancers for the longest time.

Yeah, unfortunately there’s not a ton of realistic options we could get for cryomancers or ice based characters. I think the top two are probably Sub-Zero or the Lich King which would both be awesome. Frederick might have a small shot as a K. Rool echo but I’m not holding my breath. I’d also love to see Glacius, Bad Mr. Frosty, or one of several ice type Pokemon but I don’t think they’re particularly likely either.

 

[Will]

King hippo is better echo for king k. Rool just change the specials then it will pretty much fit

King Hippo doesn’t run on all fours like a damn dog

 

[Gengar84]

King Hippo doesn’t run on all fours like a damn dog

Lol, that’s true but you can change running animations for echoes. Just look at Dark Samus. That said, the run isn’t the only thing making Hippo a weird K. Rool echo despite their similar builds.

 

[Louie G.]

If we're gonna talk about echos, I'm going to go out and say that I hope the next Smash simply doesn't have any unless they're distinct enough to encourage a separate playstyle from the original, like Ken. Echoes that change only 1 or 2 little things, if at all, feel like roster bloat and I'd much rather not have them. It makes 100% completing stuff like Classic mode tedious too.

I'll agree with advocating for further differences between existing echoes, and I also don't think we're suddenly going to be piling on a bunch more of them, but I think certain characters - say, Jill and Leon from Resident Evil - would make good echoes of one another in a complimentary way like Simon and Richter where they borrow from one another. You could say oh I wish they were skins or something, but it's splitting hairs at that point and I'm pretty vehemently against characters with well established individual personalities needing to share things like taunts and victory poses.

Marginal difference in effort to make a character more faithful and the only catch is you have the option to see them on the CSS.

King hippo is better echo for king k. Rool just change the specials then it will pretty much fit

I love the comparison but I still don't think Hippo could work as a clone. I think the most striking similarity is simply that K. Rool's belly armor mechanic feels comparable in function to King Hippo's rematch in Punch-Out Wii, where he wears a metal cover over his sensitive belly button.

My concept for a playable King Hippo would probably involve some weird quirks. He is so perfectly designed to be a boss, with very deliberate weaknesses and attack patterns that he may end up feeling like he's playing a totally different game than everyone else. I'll have to toy around with the concept more at some point to see if I can make it function in the confines of Smash - particularly some sort of stance element that protects individual halves of his body from damage, and of course a weak state involving his pants coming down.

He'd too different from K. Rool to be a clone of him, but I do believe K. Rool's weightier sumo-esque style has rendered King Hippo a bit redundant to some degree. I'd still love to see him someday but I think I've been shifting gears a bit more toward Mr. Sandman lately, if we were fortunate enough to see a second Punch-Out character.

 

[fogbadge]

King Hippo doesn’t run on all fours like a damn dog

neither did k.rool

 

[RileyXY1]

If we're gonna talk about echos, I'm going to go out and say that I hope the next Smash simply doesn't have any unless they're distinct enough to encourage a separate playstyle from the original, like Ken. Echoes that change only 1 or 2 little things, if at all, feel like roster bloat and I'd much rather not have them. It makes 100% completing stuff like Classic mode tedious too.

I think that we only got Echoes to begin with because of Everyone is Here, which limited the amount of time that can be spent on creating new and unique newcomers because a lot of that dev time was instead spent bringing back all the old characters. Smash Ultimate's new content (especially in base) suffered because they decided to bring back every character and nearly every stage.

 

[UserKev]

Echoes aren't pointlessly on the roster at least. They actually have to get in on their own merit. Most of the echoes are popular characters and fan favorites that made their eventuality. Actually, you'd thanked the echoe concept for making it possible for them that next game can revamp them.

 

[Garteam]

If we're gonna talk about echos, I'm going to go out and say that I hope the next Smash simply doesn't have any unless they're distinct enough to encourage a separate playstyle from the original, like Ken. Echoes that change only 1 or 2 little things, if at all, feel like roster bloat and I'd much rather not have them. It makes 100% completing stuff like Classic mode tedious too.

I disagree. Even for the undercooked echoes like Daisy, Dark Samus, or Richter, being an echo gives them unique animations that better represent their personalities than just sharing their base character's taunts and idles. That alone justifies them echoes over costumes, IMO. I do understand concerns about roster bloat, but I think that could be fixed by allowing the player to individually set which echoes have their own slots and which ones are stacked on their original. That way, the player could set their own uniform standard for which characters are and are not unique enough to justify their own slot, as opposed to Ultimate's "all or nothing" approach to stacking echoes.

 

[Sucumbio]

I disagree. Even for the undercooked echoes like Daisy, Dark Samus, or Richter, being an echo gives them unique animations that better represent their personalities than just sharing their base character's taunts and idles. That alone justifies them echoes over costumes, IMO. I do understand concerns about roster bloat, but I think that could be fixed by allowing the player to individually set which echoes have their own slots and which ones are stacked on their original. That way, the player could set their own uniform standard for which characters are and are not unique enough to justify their own slot, as opposed to Ultimate's "all or nothing" approach to stacking echoes.

That and well, the alternative is no playable character at all lol. I'll take the echo over nothing any day even if it is just barely "unique."

 

[Gengar84]

That and well, the alternative is no playable character at all lol. I'll take the echo over nothing any day even if it is just barely "unique."

I agree. I’m also fine with alternate characters as costumes like Alph, the Koopalings, or Hero. It is weird that costume alts and echoes both exist at the same time though. I’ll always gladly trade a bit of accuracy for the ability to play as a character I otherwise wouldn’t have even if their abilities aren’t completely faithful to the source material. It would make more sense to just pick one direction for variant characters and stick with it. Like Dr. Mario could have easily just been a costume for Mario.

My only real issue is characters like Ganondorf, Impa, and Dixie Kong being alts when they have so much more potential as unique characters and are important enough to warrant that. Still, I’ll take echoes over nothing. I only ask that they vary these types of characters up in the following games. More minor characters and/or characters without a ton of unique moveset potential are fine to stay as they are in my opinion.

 

[Louie G.]

I’m also fine with alternate characters as costumes like Alph, the Koopalings, or Hero.

On paper I'm okay with this - these examples are fine. But they've given the community a really warped idea of what can be practically done with alternate costumes and some people are very careless about how much individuality is being sacrificed by squeezing characters into the same slot. I still shudder to recall the "ARMS character will be a Hero situation" dark ages. In these scenarios, more becomes less - it's the empty illusion of more content.

I can rest easy knowing Sakurai is largely on my side though. Otherwise we'd have characters like Simon and Richter sharing space, but clearly he sees the value in letting them spread their wings individually even if it's only justified by a handful of cool animations. Richter's peace sign victory screen is an all timer.

 

[Gengar84]

On paper I'm okay with this - these examples are fine. But they've given the community a really warped idea of what can be practically done with alternate costumes and some people are very careless about how much individuality is being sacrificed by squeezing characters into the same slot. I still shudder to recall the "ARMS character will be a Hero situation" dark ages.

I can rest easy knowing Sakurai is largely on my side though. Otherwise we'd have characters like Simon and Richter sharing space, but clearly he sees the value in letting them spread their wings individually even if it's only justified by a handful of cool animations.

Are ARMS alts really that much worse than any particular character as a Mii outfit? The Miis don’t really have movesets that perfectly fit the character in question either but people seem generally fine with those just to get more representation. The ARMS characters still share the general trait of extendable arms even if their weapons vary. I don’t care much about ARMS but I’d personally take more characters than fewer even if they aren’t completely faithful. Then again, I’ve been playing with mods in Smash since Brawl so I’m pretty used to the idea of fitting characters over others as alts and it never really bothered me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Are ARMS alts really that much worse than any particular character as a Mii outfit? The Miis don’t really have movesets that perfectly fit the character in question either but people seem generally fine with those just to get more representation. The ARMS characters still share the general trait of extendable arms even if their weapons vary. I don’t care much about ARMS but I’d personally take more characters than fewer even if they aren’t completely faithful. Then again, I’ve been playing with mods in Smash since Brawl so I’m pretty used to the idea of fitting characters over others as alts and it never really bothered me.

Min Min's moveset incorporates things that are Min Min-specific, not just her default ARMS, so yes, they would be a bit of a problem.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

neither did k.rool

It makes more sense in Smash for K Rool to be doing that then a human person doing that.

 

[Gengar84]

Min Min's moveset incorporates things that are Min Min-specific, not just her default ARMS, so yes, they would be a bit of a problem.

Fair enough. They could have pulled from multiple characters like they did with Simon and Richter’s movesets instead of Min-Min specifically if they wanted a general ARMS character but I see where you’re coming from. On the other hand, the Koopalings all had pretty unique boss fights in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World and they all managed to work as Bowser Jr. alts. I guess that’s why I’m thankful to mods so I can add a ton of alts myself without interfering with people that might not want them.

 

[Louie G.]

Are ARMS alts really that much worse than any particular character as a Mii outfit? The Miis don’t really have movesets that perfectly fit the character in question either but people seem generally fine with those just to get more representation. The ARMS characters still share the general trait of extendable arms even if their weapons vary.

Short answer, yes it's a lot worse.

Long answer, Mii Costumes are not those characters. They exist to convey the illusion of those characters, but when you place a character on the roster wholesale it is explicitly that individual character. There are some Miis that are better at giving the illusion than others - Sans, Cuphead, Bomberman of course - but at the end of the day these are still costumes. They aren't really fooling anyone - but once the announcer shouts a character's name, it's official.

The crux of a fighting game like ARMS is the ways its characters are different from one another. Even with the same fundamental gameplay essence, every fighter is given unique quirks, culture and a bombastic personality to distinguish themselves and build a fun cast. To pile all of these characters on top of one another in the same space, sharing animations and abilities, is a disservice to everything the game stands for. Particularly when Smash wants to convey what makes a character or their game special, the last thing you want to do is imply they are all interchangeable.

Maybe it's all well and good for a simple model swap mod, but even so I've seen Spring Man placed on top of Min Min and it looks incredibly unnatural to see him doing her kicks and taunts. If Min Min had to accommodate for say... Spring Man, Ribbon Girl and Ninjara, her moveset and animations need to be dumbed down and sterilized to be some husk of a character who can do very basic ARMS-related moves and exist to perform a function rather than represent a character. To put the emphasis firmly on Min Min is to celebrate her individuality as a full character, which is absolutely the right choice.

 

[Sucumbio]

Simon and Richter. I'm ok with them but I still would have preferred even more distinction. Richter is great (though give him his dash in mid air like in his game imo) his kit pretty much comes straight from the battle in the throne room in sotn. Simon though he kinda already had an issue being he's not nearly as fleshed out in the source material so translating to Smash meant copying Richter was inevitable.

 

[Gengar84]

Short answer, yes it's a lot worse.

Long answer, Mii Costumes are not those characters. They exist to convey the illusion of those characters, but when you place a character on the roster wholesale that is explicitly that individual character. There are some Miis that are better at giving the illusion than others - Sans, Cuphead, Bomberman of course - but at the end of the day these are still costumes. They aren't really fooling anyone - but once the announcer shouts a character's name, it's official.

The crux of a fighting game like ARMS is the ways its characters are different from one another. Even with the same fundamental gameplay essence, every fighter is given unique quirks and a bombastic personality to distinguish themselves and build a fun cast. To pile all of these characters on top of one another in the same space, sharing animations and abilities, is a disservice to everything the game stands for. Particularly when Smash wants to convey what makes a character or their game special, the last thing you want to do is imply they are all interchangeable.

Maybe it's all well and good for a simple model swap mod, but even so I've seen Spring Man placed on top of Min Min and it looks incredibly unnatural to see him doing her kicks and taunts. If Min Min had to accommodate for say... Spring Man, Ribbon Girl and Ninjara, her moveset and animations need to be dumbed down and sterilized to be some husk of a character who can do very basic ARMS-related moves and exist to perform a function rather than represent a character. To put the emphasis firmly on Min Min is to celebrate her individuality as a full character, which is absolutely the right choice.

Yeah, I never played ARMS so I don’t have a huge stake in a Hero situation but I guess it’s all preference in how much accuracy you’re willing to sacrifice in order to get more characters playable. Like Dark Samus had a lot of unique potential but I still enjoy being able to play as her. If accuracy is more important to you, I totally get that and that’s fine too. Other clones like Toon Link had a lot more they could have pulled from too. In the end, I think it all comes down to what aspects you prioritize and there’s no right or wrong answer.

 

[Schnee117]

Are ARMS alts really that much worse than any particular character as a Mii outfit? The Miis don’t really have movesets that perfectly fit the character in question either but people seem generally fine with those just to get more representation. The ARMS characters still share the general trait of extendable arms even if their weapons vary. I don’t care much about ARMS but I’d personally take more characters than fewer even if they aren’t completely faithful. Then again, I’ve been playing with mods in Smash since Brawl so I’m pretty used to the idea of fitting characters over others as alts and it never really bothered me.

Even as someone who played like 10 minutes of the Arms beta, nah you can't really put all the characters into a single slot.
You could maybe get away with Spring Man and Springtron or Ribbon Girl but even then I wouldn't proclaim that with confidence. Once you go past that you have a lot more varying abilities and body sizes to consider. Like Mechanica can't be an alt, Helix can't be an alt, Max can't be an alt, Twintelle can't be an alt and so on.

Having a similar general trait isn't enough when all the characters have their own personalities, body shapes and sizes and abilities to consider.

Fair enough. They could have pulled from multiple characters like they did with Simon and Richter’s movesets instead of Min-Min specifically if they wanted a general ARMS character but I see where you’re coming from. On the other hand, the Koopalings all had pretty unique boss fights in Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World and they all managed to work as Bowser Jr. alts. I guess that’s why I’m thankful to mods so I can add a ton of alts myself without interfering with people that might not want them.

They work as Jr alts because the moveset is focused on the Clown Car rather than any of Jr's own actual abilities and I wouldn't call the fights in SMB3 or World all too unique to be honest. SMB3 was the same basic concept all around, just that some might have a variation to slightly differentiate them and World I distinctly recall having four boss concepts among the Koopalings with Ludwig being the only unique one. Larry and Iggy was the same fight, Wendy and Lemmy were the same and then Roy and Morton were the same.

 

[Gengar84]

Not to really defend the ARMS scenario specifically since you’re probably right that it could be a bit much but I just wanted to add that you can change animations for alt costumes. Even though it’s functionally the same, Advent Children Cloud has a completely different Final Smash visually. The same could easily be extended to taunts and basic animations.

 

[Will]

neither did k.rool

you and I both know he hops. you’re arguing over semantics when the issue is that king hippo is literally not built to run like that.

 

[Sucumbio]

Toadette/Peachette would be cool.
Baby Mario/Luigi maybe...
Who else would make decent echos?

 

[osby]

Not to really defend the ARMS scenario specifically since you’re probably right that it could be a bit much but I just wanted to add that you can change animations for alt costumes. Even though it’s functionally the same, Advent Children Cloud has a completely different Final Smash visually. The same could easily be extended to taunts and basic animations.

That wouldn't be the worst thing but I wouldn't look forward to fans rallying behind the idea of making all FE characters alts of each other even more than usual.

 

[Louie G.]

Not to really defend the ARMS scenario specifically since you’re probably right that it could be a bit much but I just wanted to add that you can change animations for alt costumes. Even though it’s functionally the same, Advent Children Cloud has a completely different Final Smash visually. The same could easily be extended to taunts and basic animations.

Theoretically I feel like you could, but that isn't a precedent set in Smash yet for individual characters vs alternate outfits or gender swaps. Sakurai has cited different animations as enough reason to make Daisy and Dark Samus separate characters so that's my frame of reference.

Inkling and Byleth have slight variations with their respective gender swaps but those don't reflect any significant difference in personality / identity. I do think we ought to have unique victory screens for alternate costumes, but again just no precedent for that yet.

 

[osby]

Toadette/Peachette would be cool.
Baby Mario/Luigi maybe...
Who else would make decent echos?

Bayonetta/Jeanne is a popular suggestion for a reason. Same with Sonic/Shadow but you'll lose more unique abilities unless Shadow gets at least one new special. Violet from P5R can work as a Joker echo but it'd require some tinkering.

 

[Gengar84]

Toadette/Peachette would be cool.
Baby Mario/Luigi maybe...
Who else would make decent echos?

Dry Bowser
Scorpion/Sub-Zero (with different specials)
Lord Frederick
Tharja (with different A moves)
Blaziken (over Captain Falcon)
Medusa
Black Shadow
Octoling

Theoretically I feel like you could, but that isn't a precedent set in Smash yet for individual characters vs alternate outfits or gender swaps. Sakurai has cited different animations as enough reason to make Daisy and Dark Samus separate characters so that's my frame of reference.

Inkling and Byleth have slight variations with their respective gender swaps but those don't reflect any significant difference in personality / identity. I do think we ought to have unique victory screens for alternate costumes, but again just no precedent for that yet.

I meant that they already did that with Cloud if I wasn’t clear enough. If a character can have a different Final Smash as an alt, taunts shouldn’t be a problem.

 

[Louie G.]

Who else would make decent echos?

Octoling
Jeanne
Proto Man? Although they could be pretty different, too. Would probably want to repurpose some of Mega Man's old customs.

I'm not going in advocating for too many new ones, but I think these would make sense since they already function similarly in their respective games.

As far as new characters go, Jill / Leon (Resident Evil) and Arle / Amitie (Puyo Puyo) could theoretically be added as echoes of one another. I think the Simon and Richter method of adding characters who were built in tandem to borrow from one another is pretty neat.