Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Sucumbio]

Having never played DKC I'm not exactly invested in Krool's design or even inclusion aside from being happy for his fans. But I like him! He's pretty brutal just like DK, he does look and feel like a DK rep, and his size means he isn't Diddy who's basically Muhammad Ali to DK's George Foreman. But I also can't shake the feelings of Rare's involvement in all 4's Identity (Dixie added) and how Nintendo has gone with it over the years.

 

[StormC]

I'd like to see K. Rool's armor mechanic tweaked a bit in the next Smash at least. Maybe a visible meter showing how much of it is left.

 

[DarthEnderX]

DarthEnderX had a good idea but I don't remember something about giving chrom a new moveset and making lucina his clone

That was it. Give Chrom a new moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Then make Roy into Marth's Echo.

Then at least we have 2 Marths and 2 Chroms, instead of 4 Marths.

Too many differences in characterization and overall personality between the two for that kind of description of K Rool to really land for me, but hypothetically the similarities that were there may have played a factor to certain people at Nintendo.

"Fat lizard is fat lizard!"

 

[Noipoi]

That was it. Give Chrom a new moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Then make Roy into Marth's Echo.


"Fat lizard is fat lizard!"

Hey HEY!

Bowser's not fat! That's pure muscle, baybee!

 

[DarthEnderX]

I feel the same way. Ultimate will undoubtedly be the peak of Echoes in terms of necessarily. I only really want one more potential Echoe relating to Yoshi and I can savor in closure. I actually have a genuinely hard time even listing more Echoes beyond the already playable without a punishable headache.

I don't!

10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]
82e. Roxas [Sora]

Most of the time people suggesting characters being lumped together as alts either don't know the characters in question or don't care about them. You very rarely see knowledge fans suggest these things.

I do it all the time. Especially because I'm always requesting NES characters, where player 1 and player 2 play exactly the same.

Bill Rizer and Lance Bean
Kunio and Riki
Goemon and Ebisumaru
Billy Lee and Jimmy Lee
Rash and Zitz
Bub and Bob
Captain Toad and Toadette

All of these characters play identically. At least, in their early games. There's no reason to have to make them Echoes. Making them alts would actually be perfectly accurate to the games.

Master Higgins (known as Master Wigins in the United Kingdom and as Takahashi Meijin in Japanese versions) the protagonist from the Adventure Island series could come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series

The only issue with that is Takahashi Meijin is a real-life person and the game character is based on him. So that might put him in 4th Party territory.

Besides, Bonk is clearly the better choice for savage Hudson Soft character.

 

[Geno Boost]

King Hippo doesn’t run on all fours like a damn dog

Echo fighter like can receive new running animation so that’s not an issue

Can’t argue there. I also like snow and ice themed characters.

literally a reason why I need sub-zero and Jack Frost in smash they can expand on the ice element moves

 

[Kirbeh]

Why are we trying to turn King Hippo into a echo?

King Hippo can't use any kicks or K. Rools grabs (they deviate too much from the boxer motif), the helicopter pack, blunderbuss, his belly is his weak point not armored like Rool's, etc.

He's a big guy who wears a crown sure, but that doesn't automatically make him echo material for K. Rool. Outside of F-Smash and back air there's not much he could actually take from K. Rool.

 

[Stratos]

The only issue with that is Takahashi Meijin is a real-life person and the game character is based on him. So that might put him in 4th Party territory.

Besides, Bonk is clearly the better choice for savage Hudson Soft character.

I didn't know that, so maybe it's better with the name 'Master Higgins'?

 

[SPEN18]

Isn't that just Roy and/or Shulk?

The tipper mechanic is genius. But I also think it's time to move away from it to. Lucina's complete lack of tipper is fine and gives her a niche.

You misunderstand me.

Marth should always keep the tipper. It should never be removed.

I just think other characters should stop having variations of the mechanic as that robs it of its uniqueness. We have Roy and Marth as clever variants. I don't think we need any more.

That's fair if you just don't want another variation of the tipper. But no tipper at all doesn't really satisfy me, either, so idk what else to suggest other than giving Lucina a different change from Marth besides altering the tipper.

 

[Sucumbio]

Ah, ah good day and my favorite melody to hum while washing dishes apparently.

Here's a version by game of thrones not really but that's what it made me think lol

Hey HEY!

Bowser's I'm not fat! That's pure muscle, baybee!

I'm hearing this in both Jack Black and Adam Cole's voices and somehow they both work!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Hey HEY!

Bowser's not fat! That's pure muscle, baybee!

He's big boned!

 

[Nabbitfan730]

If they were so inclined, they would ask for better online to be a priority, but they don't because it hasn't been in most cases.

Why would they have to ask when Bandai Namco is in charge of development? Pretty sure that on latter and Sakurai to decide if the priority is to be made.You literally said that Bamco is providing the manpower to make this game. Where is it for the online?

Also, guess who else worked on ARMS and MK8? Bandai Namco, creating half of the assets for both games. Strictly asset creation of course,

What was the point on bringing this up if you later on admit to it being irrevelant to the point at hand?

but the point being it's up to Nintendo to decide how they're going to handle the online in their own games.

Yeah, their OWN games. The ones they actually make. Not the ones out-sourced

You bring up points then immediately contradict them or even answer them yourself. No point in complaining about online if you can't address the actual culprits

 

[MasterCheef]

That was it. Give Chrom a new moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Then make Roy into Marth's Echo.

I have a much better idea. this for SSB6


Alear ( male ) = can swap between , ( Marth , & , Ike ) play-styles
Alear ( female ) = can swap between , ( Lucina , & , Roy ) play-styles

 

[Kirbeh]

As far as changes for the Marth's go. I'd personally opt for giving Roy a couple more differences again and adjusting Chrom and Lucina accordingly:
- Remains mostly the same and continues to serve as the base for the others.
- Echoes Marth, serving as an in between of Marth and Chrom.
- Echoes Roy, serving as in between of Marth and Roy. Give Skyward Slash the option of being direction forward as well, doubling as better horizontal recovery and referencing the duel at Arena Ferox. Give the same to Lucina.
- Further differentiated from Marth. Still clearly based on him but given a few more unique moves.

Basically, a gradual shift between two move sets between four characters. Lucina works as being the closest to Marth since she spends a good while masquerading as him and of course being his descendant,

Chrom's not a graceful fighter so having him closer to Smash's "rougher" Roy as Ultimate already did was a good move.

If possible, I would like for a one or two, (maybe three?) unique normals and maybe a special to be given to Chrom and Lucina. They could share these as moves unique to them not taken from either Marth/Roy).

Why would they have to ask when Bandai Namco is in charge of development? Pretty sure that on latter and Sakurai to decide if the priority is to be made.You literally said that Bamco is providing the manpower to make this game. Where is it for the online?

What was the point on bringing this up if you later on admit to it being irrevelant to the point at hand?

Yeah, their OWN games. The ones they actually make. Not the ones out-sourced

You bring up points then immediately contradict them or even answer them yourself. No point in complaining about online if you can't address the actual culprits

It is outsourced, but it's still Nintendo's game. If Nintendo wants them to do something a certain way, they can ask the team at Namco to do so. The manpower is there, they even tried to work it out, but likely due to time constraints and the many issues involving the many variables in a game of Smash, they dropped it and continued with the delay based netcode they already had.

I brought up Namco's involvement in the other two because you seem to be hung up on the fact that Namco's making it. And I agree, Namco has also been very stubborn when it comes to adding rollback.

I don't see how it's a contradiction though, when it's something both have been slow to adopt. And it still remains relevant to the point at hand, because again it's still Nintendo's game. They mostly let Sakurai do his thing, but they do have the ability to step in and make requests or mandates. They still get final say.

I'm in no way disagreeing with the fact that Namco's been slow to adapt, but Nintendo themselves are also only recently coming around. In a way it's almost fitting that this is a collaboration between the two.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I have a much better idea. this for SSB6


Alear ( male ) = can swap between , ( Marth , & , Ike ) play-styles
Alear ( female ) = can swap between , ( Lucina , & , Roy ) play-styles

I'm starting to wish Alear never existed, just so we can get rid of this stupid idea of fitting multiple different Fire Emblem characters in the same moveset.

 

[Geno Boost]

The only issue with that is Takahashi Meijin is a real-life person and the game character is based on him. So that might put him in 4th Party territory.

That did not stop Goemon from getting Mii costume and yes Goemon is based on real life person with the same name

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm starting to wish Alear never existed, just so we can get rid of this stupid idea of fitting multiple different Fire Emblem characters in the same moveset.

But I like Pepsi/Toothpaste Lord...

I admit full bias as a fan of Mika Pikazo though.

That said I will disagree on the multiple characters on one kit being an inherently bad idea. You won't find many cases where it can work, but there are a handful where I think you can work into something neat.

Though I can't say I'm a fan of Cheef's suggestion either.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

But I like Pepsi/Toothpaste Lord...

I admit full bias as a fan of Mika Pikazo though.

That said I will disagree on the multiple characters on one kit being an inherently bad idea. You won't find many cases where it can work, but there are a handful where I think you can work into something neat.

Though I can't say I'm a fan of Cheef's suggestion either.

Alear themselves is fine. Multiple characters in a moveset are also fine. I love Pokemon Trainer (I main them lol) and Pyra/Mythra.

I'm just sick of people using Alear to dump all the Fire Emblem movesets just so we have less (but some how the same amount of) Fire Emblem characters.

It doesn't take much thought to realize switching between Ike and Marth doesn't work. Let alone Lucina and Roy.

And that's without getting into the fact that people would flip out at the thought of mainstays like Marth or Ike being turned into stances. Not even their own characters.

 

[Opossum]

Every time someone suggests the idea of condensing the existing Fire Emblem characters into Alear, their most wanted character gets excluded from another Smash game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Every time someone suggests the idea of condensing the existing Fire Emblem characters into Alear, their most wanted character gets excluded from another Smash game.

We might as well fit all the Pokemon into Pokemon Trainer's moveset.

 

[Noipoi]

I'm starting to wish Alear never existed, just so we can get rid of this stupid idea of fitting multiple different Fire Emblem characters in the same moveset.

I also sometimes wish they didn't exist

Mostly because they hurt my eyes...

 

[Kirbeh]

We might as well fit all the Pokemon into Pokemon Trainer's moveset.

Okay, but another trainer character with a full team of 6 would be pretty crazy. I kind of want to see it for the sheer absurdity.

As for Alear, I don't think they should be replacing anyone. However, I think it'd be kinda cool if they were the Seth/Honoka/Double of Fire Emblem characters. They could give her moves from all the other FE characters on the roster, serving as Smash's take on the composite character.

 

[MasterCheef]

I'm starting to wish Alear never existed, just so we can get rid of this stupid idea of fitting multiple different Fire Emblem characters in the same moveset.

.
.
Making me want it all the more

 

[SPEN18]

"the Seth of Fire Emblem characters"

my brain can only interpret this to mean "give them a mount and make them so crazy broken that Brawl MK would kneel before them"

 

[Guynamednelson]

"the Seth of Fire Emblem characters"

my brain can only interpret this to mean "give them a mount and make them so crazy broken that Brawl MK would kneel before them"

Let me try to explain that: Seth is a character in SF whose moveset is meant to be a mix of various other fighters'.

Seth

Seth (セス, Sesu?) is a video game character from the Street Fighter series, first appearing as the main antagonist of Street Fighter IV. He is the CEO of Shadaloo's weapon division, S.I.N., and one of many genetically engineered replacement bodies for M. Bison. Seth is also playable in Street...

streetfighter.fandom.com

It includes some original moves too, he's not meant to just be a Wolf-esque hodgepodge.

 

[HyperSomari64]

That did not stop Goemon from getting Mii costume and yes Goemon is based on real life person with the same name

Was Meijin-san an historical figure?

 

[cashregister9]

I am definitely biased here but you don't need to turn Alear into Seth and you really don't need to turn them into Mokujin to make them interesting. Having just 1 Emblem could be the big differentiator between Alear and the rest of the Fire Emblem characters, You don't need a whole army.

(I could even argue that you don't even need Emblem summons to make Alear interesting but in turn I don't think that would represent Engage very well)

 

[MasterCheef]

switching between Ike & Marth doesn't work. Let alone Lucina & Roy

.
.
How so ?

 

[Schnee117]

"The Seth of Fire Emblem"
Fire Emblem already has a Seth

 

[Swamp Sensei]

"The Seth of Fire Emblem"
Fire Emblem already has a Seth

If Seth were to be included, he'd be more OP than Bayonetta, Steve and Meta Knight combined.

 

[SPEN18]

Let me try to explain that: Seth is a character in SF whose moveset is meant to be a mix of various other fighters'.

Seth

Seth (セス, Sesu?) is a video game character from the Street Fighter series, first appearing as the main antagonist of Street Fighter IV. He is the CEO of Shadaloo's weapon division, S.I.N., and one of many genetically engineered replacement bodies for M. Bison. Seth is also playable in Street...

streetfighter.fandom.com

It includes some original moves too, he's not meant to just be a Wolf-esque hodgepodge.

yep, I figured that out, was just making an attempt at humor

 

[Garteam]

The only issue with that is Takahashi Meijin is a real-life person and the game character is based on him. So that might put him in 4th Party territory.

Master Higgins is less derivative of Meijin's likeness than Dr. Kawashima is of the neuroscientist of the same name, so I think he's fine as far as qualifying as a video game character goes. It would be interesting to find out if there any unique requirements to license Master Higgins due to being inspired by a real person, though. Maybe Nintendo would have to pay some licensing fee to Meijin?

In terms of Alear, I'm a massive Fire Emblem fan and Byleth was one of my most wanted characters during the Fighter's Pass era, but I don't think Alear is necessary or even that likely. Unlike Corrin and Byleth, Alear doesn't wield his/her sword in an interesting and novel manner, instead using the standard graceful, fencing-inspired swordplay that a lot of the early Lords used. That works well for the main character of a 30th-anniversary game, but it's more of a detriment in the context of Smash. We already have Marth, who has both used this swordplay for 20+ years and is the first character in Fire Emblem to fight in this way. The crests would help differentiate Alear a little bit, but that's still only covering his/her special moves.

I think the bigger issue that, honestly, IS doesn't seem that interested in Engage. Echoes and Three Houses, the two other Fire Emblem games released post-Heroes, got the red carpet treatment in that game for awhile, constantly receiving new characters to fill their casts for banner upon banner. Engage, by contrast, has received very little attention and a little over a dozen characters from it have been added to Engage's 300+ character pool. Lukewarm sales relative to previous entries and Alear having the most criticized design in the series (debatably barring Awakening Micaiah) also don't help. If it came down to it, I imagine that IS would rather have Ike, Robin, or Byleth return in lieu of adding Alear as a Fire Emblem representative.

 

[Speed Weed]

The case with Higgins is.....interesting. He very much is like Hudson's equivalent to Kawashima, in that although he's basically a real guy, the company still treated him as more or less a character of his own, and he still showed up in stuff like cartoons, and crossovers such as Saturn Bomberman and DreamMix TV World Fighters. If that were all there is to it, I think there's a chance it would be fine.

However, we need to consider that all of the aforementioned happened while Hudson was still around and Takahashi was still at the company. But shortly before they went out of business and were subsumed into Konami, he left the company and got to keep the rights to the Takahashi Meijin name. So I don't think the issue is that he's based on a real guy so much as it's that he's based on a real guy who left the (now-dead) company that made the games he was the basis for, and who now essentially owns the rights to the "Takahashi Meijin" persona he cultivated for so long as a spokesperson for Hudson. Notice how in the PC Engine Mini, they opted for the western version of Adventure Island instead of the Japanese title that would have required using his name. It's a whole complicated situation, and using Higgins in a crossover where all the key parties are still around and involved is very different from using him in a crossover in a world where the Hudson's IP have been eaten up by Konami and anything needs to pass through them, and where the man himself is off doing his own thing.

 

[Geno Boost]

It’s strange last time master Higgins had any appearance was in a wiiware adventure island game back in 2009 but then he disappeared completely like he isn’t even in Bomberman R which had a lot of konami franchise represented in them

 

[Kirbeh]

I personally don't think Engage will get any content in the next Smash outside of a song(s) and some spirits/spirit equivalent. However, I do think it's selling Alear short to just look at them and go, "it's just discount Marth."

They're fighting style in Engage does lean into the graceful swordsman theme, but I think there are plenty of directions you could go with them, both derivative and unique.

They could easily be another clone/echo/semi-clone, a composite character, or a unique sword character even before taking the engage system into account. If anything, I would argue Alear has potential for variance/unique abilities closer (but still not on par) to the likes of avatar characters like Robin/Byleth.

It’s strange last time master Higgins had any appearance was in a wiiware adventure island game back in 2009 but then he disappeared completely like he isn’t even in Bomberman R which had a lot of konami franchise represented in them

Honestly, that hadn't crossed my mind. It's not like every Konami franchise got repped in R, but when even stuff like Rumble Roses and Tokimeki got the nod it does seem rather strange. Maybe it's more to do with the fact that Adventure Island is based on the Wonder Boy series? Or again, maybe Konami just hasn't cared to use the series for anything else yet.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I loved the Adventure island games as a kid, played those NES games a lot.

Cant see him ever being in smash in any capacity.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Why are we trying to turn King Hippo into a echo?

We weren't. We were just saying KH was closer to a KRool echo than Fredrik. Which is true. But neither should be a KRool echo.

I loved the Adventure island games as a kid, played those NES games a lot.

Cant see him ever being in smash in any capacity.

When it comes to Hudson Soft characters, he's a distant 3rd behind Bomberman and Bonk.

 

[Geno Boost]

I personally don't think Engage will get any content in the next Smash outside of a song(s) and some spirits/spirit equivalent. However, I do think it's selling Alear short to just look at them and go, "it's just discount Marth."

They're fighting style in Engage does lean into the graceful swordsman theme, but I think there are plenty of directions you could go with them, both derivative and unique.

They could easily be another clone/echo/semi-clone, a composite character, or a unique sword character even before taking the engage system into account. If anything, I would argue Alear has potential for variance/unique abilities closer (but still not on par) to the likes of avatar characters like Robin/Byleth.


Honestly, that hadn't crossed my mind. It's not like every Konami franchise got repped in R, but when even stuff like Rumble Roses and Tokimeki got the nod it does seem rather strange. Maybe it's more to do with the fact that Adventure Island is based on the Wonder Boy series? Or again, maybe Konami just hasn't cared to use the series for anything else yet.

Since konami did revive princess tomato in Bomberman r which is way more obscure than adventure island then I feel the reason behind adventure island absence might be due to master higgin having some kind of special copyright since he is based on actual real person that currently left the company and they might require his permission for that to be used
But then again beside Bomberman r there is Bombergirl which could have easily featured Tina from adventure island alongside other konami girls in there but they haven’t done that

 

[Kirbeh]

When it comes to Hudson Soft characters, he's a distant 3rd behind Bomberman and Bonk.

On top of having to compete with everything else in Konami's catalogue, I don't see Higgins faring much of chance either. Plus, with the series originating as a reskin of Wonder Boy, I think it might be preferable to get someone from Wonder Boy instead. But then Wonder Boy also runs into the issue of having to compete with the rest of Sega's catalogue.

Since konami did revive princess tomato in Bomberman r which is way more obscure than adventure island then I feel the reason behind adventure island absence might be due to master higgin having some kind of special copyright due him based on actual real person that currently left the company and they might require his permission for that to be used
But then again beside Bomberman r there is Bombergirl which could have easily featured Tina from adventure island alongside other konami girls in there but they haven’t done that

That could be part of it too, but I doubt we'll find out anytime soon, what with the series being MIA for so long and Konami's reduced involvement as a game developer in recent years.

As for Bombergirl, if Adventure Island cameos were already absent from mainline Bomberman, I'm not surprised they didn't make into Bombergirl either. Thanks for reminding me that Bombergirl exists though, I'd actually made an e-musement account to play it and never got around to it.

 

[Geno Boost]

We weren't. We were just saying KH was closer to a KRool echo than Fredrik. Which is true. But neither should be a KRool echo.

When it comes to Hudson Soft characters, he's a distant 3rd behind Bomberman and Bonk.

I think momotaro is the 2nd since his franchise isn’t dead like bonk and adventure island despite staying a Japanese exclusive he is still getting new games
Also his series sold over 12 million and has more than 30 games
He is also in dreammix in other words he already have a moveset