Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Louie G.]

Cause really, the only way we'll really get serious about talking about franchises that are not talked about and marketed regularly, like Sin & Punishment, Custom Robo, Starfy, even something like Tomato Adventure or Panel de Pon, is when Sakurai adds in a playable character from one of those games or series. Like the absolute moment that Sakurai adds in a character from one of those games just because he wanted to and got the okay, only then will every 1st party game/franchise/etc be taken quite seriously during speculation.

My most wanted character is something, anything from Rhythm Heaven. And I love all these weird series, Panel de Pon is an absolute joy and I'd be pushing for Lip way harder if Arle didn't exist. I played Sin & Punishment a couple years ago and it's just an incredible, unique experience. Retro characters are some of my favorite adds so I would be over the moon at Mach Rider, Sukapon, anything.

So I am praying on my hands and knees that we get to this point that I can be confident in characters like this again, but I'm not there. Not because I don't want to be, not because I'm not interested, but because I got burnt a couple too many times and I don't want to get my hopes up. After two instances of believing my most wanted character (Chorus Kids) might be in the game and then having the rug pulled out from under me both times, I'm just not optimistic about these smaller first parties. I often don't take this topic that seriously anymore because I don't think Nintendo or Sakurai are right now either.

You do mention Isaac earlier in your post and even though he's very popular as far as first parties go, I think Golden Sun getting into Smash would be no small victory for all of these other dormant C-list Nintendo series. He's the closest and probably most practical version of that trailblazer that you're hoping for, even though he's far from my most wanted of those options. I dunno, sorry to sound like a doomer, this topic is an open wound for me as a lover of so many strange, dead Nintendo franchises that are simply not getting that love.

Will Yoshi ever get another character?

I personally kind of doubt it, since I think Yoshi has done a little less to detach himself from the core Mario series than DK or Wario have. Kamek is usually the go-to pick for Yoshi, but can we even distinctly call Kamek a Yoshi character? They're just as prominent in the mainline Mario games, he has a major role in the modern Paper Marios and most recently Mario Wonder. So even if we did get Kamek, or a character with some ties to Yoshi like I dunno, a Shy Guy... I don't even know if we'd be seeing them classified as a "Yoshi rep". Based on the way Smash has handled these characters so far, I would say probably not.

Unless of course they add Poochy... Which they SHOULD! They added him in Mario Kart Tour so honestly I'm just hoping that carries over to the inevitable next gen Mario Kart title. Poochy deserves some time in the limelight.

 

[smashkirby]

Okay guy, let's be real. Will Yoshi ever get another character?

Or will it be the green dino forever?

Personally, I've always advocated for Kamek and Poochy (the latter in recent years). But now... well, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my doubts. Though I'd LOVE to be proven wrong.

I think part of the problem is, aside from 3rd Party hype and "Celebration of Gaming" shenanigans, whenever First Parties are brought up, the things most people often bring up are mainly:

• The really popular characters, like Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Ashley and Isaac.
• Characters tied to a notably popular game and is decently popular regarding their franchise's fanbase, like Raven Beak, Impa, the BotW Champions, Akira Howard, etc.
• The "Obvious Marketing pick", like Alear, Noah and Mio, Ring Fit Trainer and the new Generation of Pokemon.
• And sometimes the surprise pick, which if often regulated to Retro picks like Takamaru, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, etc.

Which for the most part, isn't a bad selection of characters, but because we tend to look at what we commonly see, the discussions about them don't tend to change for the most part. And the only times when it really changes is when something new is introduced, which often get sorted into the 2nd or 3rd categories.
A new Advance Wars game? Add in Andy, Sami, etc into the speculation mix. Metroid Dread releases and becomes quite popular? Raven Beak joins into the mix. New game for a re-occuring franchise or a new title that does well and is decently popular? Add in the recently shown characters or notably popular new characters into the mix, then slowly discard them when they miss their chance. It's as simple and vicious a cycle that continuously flows.
Cause really, the only way we'll really get serious about talking about franchises that are not talked about and marketed regularly, like Sin & Punishment, Custom Robo, Starfy, even something like Tomato Adventure or Panel de Pon, is when Sakurai adds in a playable character from one of those games or series. Like the absolute moment that Sakurai adds in a character from one of those games just because he wanted to and got the okay, only then will every 1st party game/franchise/etc be taken quite seriously during speculation.

Fair point. I mean, I'm someone who looks forward to 1st parties than 3rd parties admittedly, so to see folks like Saki Amamiya, a Ray model, Starfy, DeMille, or even Lip get in would be cause for celebration for me. Heck, I'm someone whose most wanted obscure 1st party character is Lark from Pilotwings 64, so seeing him (or even ANY meaningful Pilotwings 64 representation at all) would nothing short of an absolute dream.

My most wanted character is something, anything from Rhythm Heaven. And I love all these weird series, Panel de Pon is an absolute joy and I'd be pushing for Lip way harder if Arle didn't exist. I played Sin & Punishment a couple years ago and it's just an incredible, unique experience. Retro characters are some of my favorite adds so I would be over the moon at Mach Rider, Sukapon, anything.

So I am praying on my hands and knees that we get to this point that I can be confident in characters like this again, but I'm not there. Not because I don't want to be, not because I'm not interested, but because I got burnt a couple too many times and I don't want to get my hopes up. After two instances of believing my most wanted character (Chorus Kids) might be in the game and then having the rug pulled out from under me both times, I'm just not optimistic about these smaller first parties. I often don't take this topic that seriously anymore because I don't think Nintendo or Sakurai are right now either.

You do mention Isaac earlier in your post and even though he's very popular as far as first parties go, I think Golden Sun getting into Smash would be no small victory for all of these other dormant C-list Nintendo series. He's the closest and probably most practical version of that trailblazer that you're hoping for, even though he's far from my most wanted of those options. I dunno, sorry to sound like a doomer, this topic is an open wound for me as a lover of so many strange, dead Nintendo franchises that are simply not getting that love.

You've pretty much summed up my feelings on the likes of 1st parties, retro/obscure/niche alike. I mean, in addition to what you said, I'd like to see a character from Pilotwings, Nintendo Land, Style Savvy, and the like, but I don't intend to get my hopes up, as I know that'd be a pipe dream in more ways than one.

 

[Speed Weed]

I'm glad we can all agree that Smash sucks until they add Saki

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Bandana Dee is actually a good example because as much sense as he makes I find it kinda tough to justify adding him given some other cuts that would need to be made and the way that scales up against other series in a condensed roster.

This is basically the reason I don't like having to live in the shadows of his presumed priority. Using him as a stand-in for one of the veterans will likely cause a lot of ire, for a number of reasons. But he's literally the only option people think of when prioritizing Kirby in Smash.
In general, I invite people to occasionally experiment either with or beyond the most popular choice. Maybe not as a guarantee, but as something to make speculation more varied.

 

[Ivander]

I'm glad we can all agree that Smash sucks until they add Saki

I mean, he's been added into the game one way or another, but man, does his Assist Trophy page for Brawl sting much more lately, like when Sakurai talks about how he looks like a character that could be playable and he has no problem fitting in and you see the image of him fighting with other characters.

At the time, the sting hardly did anything when people looked at Assist Trophies much more lightly, but with Assist Trophies being looked at more harshly in regards to before-release speculation, the pages' quotes tend to open the sting wound more and more as time goes on.

 

[Louie G.]

This is basically the reason I don't like having to live in the shadows of his presumed priority. Using him as a stand-in for one of the veterans will likely cause a lot of ire, for a number of reasons. But he's literally the only option people think of when prioritizing Kirby in Smash.
In general, I invite people to occasionally experiment either with or beyond the most popular choice. Maybe not as a guarantee, but as something to make speculation more varied.

Well I do think it's pretty much Bandana Dee or bust, and my point was moreso that I think three Kirby characters is a good amount for a conservative 50 or 60 something character roster. But to humor this point as a Kirby superfan myself there are a couple other choices I'd personally like to see, and I think make a decent amount of practical sense in their own right.

The big alternative in my opinion is Magolor, on the heels of RTDL DX and his own mini-campaign I think he's established himself as a pretty significant player. This has been the case for a while, he's obviously a favorite of the team's and has shown up in other titles like Dream Collection and Kirby Clash. People want more modern content, here's one character who is very emblematic of and specifically originating from the modern games. I'm also kind of a sucker for trickster type characters and I think Magolor would be a super fun take on our, as previously stated, somewhat lacking roster of magical fighters. And unless you count Dedede, which hasn't been the case in a very long time, I suppose Kirby could use more of an antagonist stand-in.

On that note though, my most wanted Kirby character is Marx. I've actually felt this way since long before he appeared as a Dream Friend - I think I was yelling abt as loud about being able to play as Marx as I was Smash being revealed twenty minutes later lol. KSSU is my favorite Kirby game and Marx is such a strikingly fun design with loads of strange abilities and toys that would make him stand out like nobody else. Star Allies is a blessing because it pretty much hands us movesets for every major Kirby character on a silver platter. I'm really pretty happy that Marx is already a boss in Ultimate, and I think that role does him plenty justice, but if he was playable I would be extremely happy.

But yeah, I think it's hard to be creative about Kirby picks because typically when a series is missing its MAJOR player that is the character who is going to dominate discussion. BWD has asserted himself as part of the "big four" and Kirby's de facto sidekick. I think it would be amazing if I got some of my favorite supporting characters from throughout the series history, and Dee probably isn't even in the Top 5 of who I'd be genuinely excited to see, but it kinda just has to happen before any of them or else it's just... kinda wrong.

 

[Guynamednelson]

first-parties are pretty overall ignored ever since Snake was announced for Brawl.

That's...a bit of a stretch. And then some. I mean sure it's hard to discuss a lot of first-parties now, but that took 2 DLC passes full of third-party characters to get there.

Look at base Ultimate speculation, it happened after the release of Ryu and Cloud for Smash 4 DLC, but it was still full of first-party discussion.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

And if the DYKG vid is any indicator, Retro didn't even WANT to work on DKC, to the point where a good chunk of their staff left in protest.

Then again, those same people would go on to found a company that would later get bought out by Facebook, so take that as you will...

This may be true to an extent from some developers but the vast majority of the developers that left Retro just left on their own accord due to new opportunities. A lot of the Ex-Iguana Employees that started the Studio with Jeff “The Guy Game” Spangenberg went on to form Armature yeah, and they sited the absolute absurd work-load that came in those early days. They took a few people with them but interestingly the majority of them went elsewhere.

A lot of people aren’t aware but the time during Prime 3’s development was very turbulent. They knew they were ending the Prime franchise and started throwing projects at Nintendos in a hope that something would catch their attention. There was a rumor a while back that during this time they had 3 different teams working in different prototypes. That’s apparently where the Sheikah game came from and a few other projects that just didn’t hit right. One thing they did know is that they wanted NOTHING to do with another Metroid. They were sick of the franchise. Nintendo ASKED them to develop a new DKC game during this time and due to the turbulence already present in the other three projects and general excitement about working on DKC from Michael Kelbaugh, who is one of the key figures that dug Retro out of an early grave, it was decided that they would go with that.

This is where it splintered. Most of the Developers that left around this time did end up going to Armature, sure, but a LOT of the talent that worked on Prime 3 was actually poached by, yep, Microsoft for their brand spanking new game studio, 343 industries who as most people know now develop the Halo franchise. This is why, if you play Halo 4, you can definitely see some design elements shared between the two. Microsoft wasn’t the only company that poached Retro but they were a major one.

Hell, Armature wasn’t even the first studio that resulted in Retro developers being tired of working on Metroid Prime. I’m sure everyone knows who Bluepoint is? Yep, original Retro developer. Remember how I said that Retro was originally made up of a bunch of inexperienced kids straight out of college? Yeah well, now they’re some of the most talented in the industry. Sometimes hardship breeds creativity and I’ll be damned if Retro, and to a degree Armature and Bluepoint, aren’t representative of that.

 

[Perkilator]

Anyone remember this image?

Gotta admit, the person who made this is pretty bold for having Olimar and a Pikmin as separate characters.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Okay guy, let's be real. Will Yoshi ever get another character?

Or will it be the green dino forever?

Yoshi doesn't really have many good newcomers other then Kamek or Birdo. So my guess is they'll only be one rep.

 

[Noipoi]

Okay guy, let's be real. Will Yoshi ever get another character?

Or will it be the green dino forever?

Maybe Poochy. Maybe.

But probably not, honestly.

 

[Gengar84]

Yoshi doesn't really have many good newcomers other then Kamek or Birdo. So my guess is they'll only be one rep.

Is Birdo even a Yoshi character? I know she’s partnered with Yoshi in the sports games but I’m not sure if she’s ever been in a Yoshi game. I just know her from Super Mario Bros. 2. Admittedly I haven’t played a Yoshi game since Yoshi’s Story on the N64 so I my knowledge may be pretty outdated. Kamel had a pretty decent role in the Mario movie so maybe that could help.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I've been thinking about the possibility of Ninten.

And at this point, why not? EarthBound Beginnings have been localized and there's so many other content from that game already in Smash. With Ness and Lucas already in Smash, it shouldn't be a problem adding the first protagonist to the game, right?

 

[dream1ng]

I'm not gonna lie, and I realize saying this will only extend the conversation further, but I'm already tired of the arguments about roster size. At least when we talk about characters, or movesets and game mechanics, that's fun and spurring our creativity. These roster size conversations tend to go back and forth with pretentiousness about how this or that side makes more logical sense. May I remind everyone we are speculating about a game that does not exist, that doesn't really matter right now. Certainly not enough for people to get so heated about it.

Funny enough, it has historically been character choices that provoke frustrating tribalism within the community but now it's the drastically different perspectives on how the roster may look and evolve. Personally no, I don't think a 100 character roster is very likely at all. I'm gonna take Sakurai's word for now, because it's the only thing we have to work off of, and believe that we'll have to downsize a bit with some enhanced single player modes and new features to compensate. But I dunno, if you want to make a 40 character "reboot" roster or a 100 character "deluxe" one I'm not gonna dispute you so much on the size unless you are distinctly asking me if I think it's plausible. Right now it's my least favorite topic.

I think everyone's just made up their minds about what they want to believe for now and it doesn't seem like the discussion ever goes anywhere or gets through to someone who feels that staunchly about it already. If you believe we're getting an even bigger Smash game than Ultimate I don't think there's much I can personally say to convince you otherwise.

I think part of the problem is, aside from 3rd Party hype and "Celebration of Gaming" shenanigans, whenever First Parties are brought up, the things most people often bring up are mainly:

• The really popular characters, like Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Ashley and Isaac.
• Characters tied to a notably popular game and is decently popular regarding their franchise's fanbase, like Raven Beak, Impa, the BotW Champions, Akira Howard, etc.
• The "Obvious Marketing pick", like Alear, Noah and Mio, Ring Fit Trainer and the new Generation of Pokemon.
• And sometimes the surprise pick, which if often regulated to Retro picks like Takamaru, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, etc.

Which for the most part, isn't a bad selection of characters, but because we tend to look at what we commonly see, the discussions about them don't tend to change for the most part. And the only times when it really changes is when something new is introduced, which often get sorted into the 2nd or 3rd categories.
A new Advance Wars game? Add in Andy, Sami, etc into the speculation mix. Metroid Dread releases and becomes quite popular? Raven Beak joins into the mix. New game for a re-occuring franchise or a new title that does well and is decently popular? Add in the recently shown characters or notably popular new characters into the mix, then slowly discard them when they miss their chance. It's as simple and vicious a cycle that continuously flows.
Cause really, the only way we'll really get serious about talking about franchises that are not talked about and marketed regularly, like Sin & Punishment, Custom Robo, Starfy, even something like Tomato Adventure or Panel de Pon, is when Sakurai adds in a playable character from one of those games or series. Like the absolute moment that Sakurai adds in a character from one of those games just because he wanted to and got the okay, only then will every 1st party game/franchise/etc be taken quite seriously during speculation.

Ok we'll just stick to the stuff that isn't abstract, premature, monotonous, predictable or divisive...

Uh...

Here's a Reggie gif

 

[Gengar84]

I've been thinking about the possibility of Ninten.

And at this point, why not? EarthBound Beginnings have been localized and there's so many other content from that game already in Smash. With Ness and Lucas already in Smash, it shouldn't be a problem adding the first protagonist to the game, right?

My biggest issue with Ninten is how similar he looks to Ness. He wouldn’t be a terribly exciting character for me personally because of that. I’ve never really been a big Mother/Earthbound fan so I’m sure that’s part of it too.

 

[Wonder Smash]

My biggest issue with Ninten is how similar he looks to Ness. He wouldn’t be a terribly exciting character for me personally because of that. I’ve never really been a big Mother/Earthbound fan so I’m sure that’s part of it too.

I'm not really an Earthbound fan either and I've thought his similar looks to Ness too but if they can make his moveset different enough, I guess people can overlook his similarities?

 

[SPEN18]

Actually the health of first party discussion has improved considerably since the end of Ult's DLC. Ult's DLC was the longest period ever by far in terms of the focus being away from first party picks; naturally it has taken time for speculation on first parties to fully recover, but in terms of volume and the diversity of picks discussed I believe it's on its way back. In any case, all it will take is a few first party reveals early in the next game's speculation cycle and things will be back in full swing.
The plethora of possible Mario reps, what to do with the Zelda and FE rosters, the prospects of additional reps for series that grew in the Switch era like Splatoon and AC, chances for the top fan picks, various Pokemon, and occasionally smaller series or retro reps are all examples of topics that get fairly regular discussion in here. I also think that the larger rosters we've seen in 4 and Ult have made people more willing to entertain certain character demographics that wouldn't get much light of day at all if we were talking Brawl-size rosters.
When it comes to discussion centering on a limited number of most-expected and/or most-demanded picks, well, that naturally happens in every speculation cycle. And it's not limited to first parties, either. But I do think there is more diversity in what gets discussed in here than some would give us credit for. In any case, if you want more different characters discussed, then discuss them!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Okay, I know most of us can agree that Doc is superfluous in nature. He was made as a last minute clone because the development team loved the Dr. Mario theme (good taste).

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around? He's fairly popular in the context of Smash, and Dr. Mario is still an ongoing franchise, only recently taking a break after their mobile game ended service. Seemingly, he was also planned to return to Brawl, unlike Pichu and Young Link. He's also the only puzzle rep we have on the roster (unless Puyo Puyo gets something). I don't think he's even close to being a lock, but I think he's more likely to return than most think.

 

[Louie G.]

Do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around?

I think Doc is one of the first to go, but just as well one of the easiest characters to bring back if there's any extra time to develop a few quickies. Seeing how this was the case in Brawl (he missed out) and Smash 4 (he made it) it could very well happen again. I hope that it's possible to at least bring back Dr. Mario's pills in some fashion, maybe if custom moves are retooled.

Then again, in spite of Doc's history as a prime last minute add... depending on how big the roster ends up being and how much dev time they have left, I suspect certain potentially lower priority characters might be more popular choices to scrap together. Any of the echo fighters, Lucas, Falco or Wolf, Roy, Jigglypuff (?)... I feel like any of these guys could feasibly be on the chopping block, are historically easier characters to develop and might be seen as a better investment. It's not exactly an even trade for all of these, but Dr. Mario has been differentiated a fair bit by now himself.

Bottom line is it's possible, but I'm unsure if he would win out if we're put in the same lower priority, last minute position he has often found himself in for a roster that will likely end up snipping off a number of other popular semiclones. Those guys, and the echo fighters will end up being his competition. Dr. Mario is not exactly either of those things though, so he's in kind of a weird place to judge and I'm not sure which one he's closer to at this point.

As a side note, I appreciate Dr. Mario being our only puzzle character but it's hard to truly count him as such. Maybe if they made the bold decision to declone him completely and incorporate more faithful mechanics to his home series, I'd change my tune. Although at that point, I'd rather they just put that time into Arle or Lip to accomplish the same thing.

 

[Ivander]

Okay, I know most of us can agree that Doc is superfluous in nature. He was made as a last minute clone because the development team loved the Dr. Mario theme (good taste).

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around? He's fairly popular in the context of Smash, and Dr. Mario is still an ongoing franchise, only recently taking a break after their mobile game ended service. Seemingly, he was also planned to return to Brawl, unlike Pichu and Young Link. He's also the only puzzle rep we have on the roster (unless Puyo Puyo gets something). I don't think he's even close to being a lock, but I think he's more likely to return than most think.

I don't mind him. And I can see him sticking around since he's recognisable and easy to work with. And at this point, if we lose Dr. Mario, we will lose the legendary Down Air attack of Mario stomping.......Koopas!

And wouldn't Panel de Pon count as a puzzle rep if Lip gets in?

 

[SPEN18]

Depending on the extent of the alleged Sakurai bias, I wouldn't rule out a Kirby rep other than Dee.
Magolor definitely got a decent number of votes on the ballot, and Marx is a Sakurai Super Star baby. With Marx, his history with Sakurai feels like a double-edged sword: either he could be favored by Sakurai over other Kirby characters who aren't his, or maybe Sakurai thinks he's best-suited to a boss role. Anyway, I think both Marx and Magolor would be great choices.

--

Okay, I know most of us can agree that Doc is superfluous in nature. He was made as a last minute clone because the development team loved the Dr. Mario theme (good taste).

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around? He's fairly popular in the context of Smash, and Dr. Mario is still an ongoing franchise, only recently taking a break after their mobile game ended service. Seemingly, he was also planned to return to Brawl, unlike Pichu and Young Link. He's also the only puzzle rep we have on the roster (unless Puyo Puyo gets something). I don't think he's even close to being a lock, but I think he's more likely to return than most think.

Dr. Mario did sneaky well on the NES and I gotta think that is one of the reasons he's been able to hang around the fringe of the roster.
Though next time there will likely be a lot of clone types competing for those fringe roster spots, and I'm not sure that Doc can come out on top of more popular options.

I must admit I've always kind of been on the train of thinking that he works best as an alt for Mario. I've just never brought myself to care enough about his moveset differences from Mario to really think that an alt wouldn't do him justice. And despite Dr. Mario having its significance, it's still a pretty minor part of the Marioverse overall.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If they actually go the Deluxe route capping the newcomers at the 100 mark is too little imo. I think they should go all in like with Brawl/4 at around 15 unique newcomers. So not too much more really. Throw in a handful of echoes on top though since we always get a few clones.

It should be 100 unique Fighters. So, 18 more. Echoes are extras.

So you can do 6 newcomers and a bunch of Echoes at launch, then 2 Fighters Passes.

I've been thinking about the possibility of Ninten.

Good Echo for Ness.

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around?

He should be recategorized as an Echo.

Something about your profile picture elicits some kind of smug aura to me.

I know right? So condescending...

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Okay, I know most of us can agree that Doc is superfluous in nature. He was made as a last minute clone because the development team loved the Dr. Mario theme (good taste).

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around? He's fairly popular in the context of Smash, and Dr. Mario is still an ongoing franchise, only recently taking a break after their mobile game ended service. Seemingly, he was also planned to return to Brawl, unlike Pichu and Young Link. He's also the only puzzle rep we have on the roster (unless Puyo Puyo gets something). I don't think he's even close to being a lock, but I think he's more likely to return than most think.

Honestly, even though I'm not sure on merits minus the success of Dr. Mario as a series, and I could honestly see Doc getting the boot, part of me also feels like Doc is strangely... persistent is the right word I guess?

When you think about it, Doc actually has a better track record than MEWTWO on Smash rosters at the moment, since they were both in Melee, missed Brawl, and then Doc was on Smash 4's base roster while Mewtwo was the first DLC, and then obviously both were in Ultimate.

So even though I think he'll end up cut or turned into a Mario alt, I can't really count the good doctor out completely because he has a surprisingly good attendance record lol

 

[osby]

Okay, I know most of us can agree that Doc is superfluous in nature. He was made as a last minute clone because the development team loved the Dr. Mario theme (good taste).

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around? He's fairly popular in the context of Smash, and Dr. Mario is still an ongoing franchise, only recently taking a break after their mobile game ended service. Seemingly, he was also planned to return to Brawl, unlike Pichu and Young Link. He's also the only puzzle rep we have on the roster (unless Puyo Puyo gets something). I don't think he's even close to being a lock, but I think he's more likely to return than most think.

I believe Dr. Mario has plenty of merits to justify an easy clone character, for the reasons you already listed. He's not a particularly big or exciting addition but there's also not really a reason to not bring him back unless the development goes awry (Brawl) or they overhaul how they handle costumes in a way that merges him with Mario (which seems highly unlikely to me).

Personally, I prefer how he plays over Mario so I hope he sticks around. Also, gameplay-wise he's the exact type of clone that people champion: quite similar to his base counterpart but also has enough differences that you have a reason to choose one over the other.

 

[dream1ng]

Okay, I know most of us can agree that Doc is superfluous in nature. He was made as a last minute clone because the development team loved the Dr. Mario theme (good taste).

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around? He's fairly popular in the context of Smash, and Dr. Mario is still an ongoing franchise, only recently taking a break after their mobile game ended service. Seemingly, he was also planned to return to Brawl, unlike Pichu and Young Link. He's also the only puzzle rep we have on the roster (unless Puyo Puyo gets something). I don't think he's even close to being a lock, but I think he's more likely to return than most think.

Not really. I agree with all the merits you listed, but it's another case of almost every vet looking good if you look at them in a vacuum.

But when you consider the bigger series are the ones more likely to sustain bigger cuts, putting Doc up next to the other Mario characters makes him look not quite so impressive. Like in theory you could put him above PP. There's an argument that you could put him above Daisy insofar as they're both clones but he's been part of Smash a lot longer. I don't necessarily agree with that argument, especially after Wonder, but it could be made.

His chances might improve a bit if roster creation happens in proximity to him getting a game (and ideally that game being successful), but even then... the rest of the Mario cast appears in successful games all the time... so...

But I think the reality of the situation is he'll probably not make it through the cuts just because within the Mario series, if they lose even two characters (which seems probable) he'll likely be one of them. Let alone if it goes above that.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd be sad to see Doc go tbh. I prefer playing him over the regular Bros. and there's just something about this iteration of Mario that I just like for whatever reason.

I know people generally dislike clones (though the echo branding helped some warm up to them), but I'd honestly even be in favor of going further and throwing in a Dr. Luigi with his L-shaped vitamins or a Nurse Peach that throws the viruses instead of vegetables. I like when we get goofy/remixed versions of movesets. Not just in Smash, but fighting games in general.

And so long as they don't take up too much dev time I think we could stand to get a few more.

As much as I like Doc though, I wouldn't personally prioritize him over Daisy or Plant if it came down to that. If they can continue to squeeze him in great, but I if he doesn't show up next time I won't be surprised either.

 

[Idon]

Okay, I know most of us can agree that Doc is superfluous in nature. He was made as a last minute clone because the development team loved the Dr. Mario theme (good taste).

But do you think Doc has enough merits to stay around? He's fairly popular in the context of Smash, and Dr. Mario is still an ongoing franchise, only recently taking a break after their mobile game ended service. Seemingly, he was also planned to return to Brawl, unlike Pichu and Young Link. He's also the only puzzle rep we have on the roster (unless Puyo Puyo gets something). I don't think he's even close to being a lock, but I think he's more likely to return than most think.

Short answer
No.

Long answer.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Fighters are more than just representations for games, they are characters that people like purely for the character itself. Mario in a Doctor Costume has as little justification as Mario in a Builder costume as his own distinct character representing the only "Maker" type game, and we could justify any amount of characters as long as they represent a new genre.

 

[fogbadge]

We've been talking first parties quite a lot, we were just talking about Zelda and today we were talking about Wario. Before that I brought up the question of distinctly which first party series grew during the Switch era with room to expand in the next game. I feel like first parties have actually kinda been the dominant conversation point here for a little bit.

Sorry to be a smartass, I just think that's pretty neat and wanted to give credit where it's due since you would probably expect the opposite. Personally I do find talking about first parties much more engaging right now, I already kinda know which third parties I expect / am rooting to join in the future and first parties are a lot more flexible.

yes but we talk about that a lot as well. a more accurate statement would have been "we never talk about 1st parties unless it's how to fix zelda and/or fire emblem" but it was late and i was on my phone. people rarely want to talk new first party series

 

[Gengar84]

yes but we talk about that a lot as well. a more accurate statement would have been "we never talk about 1st parties unless it's how to fix zelda and/or fire emblem" but it was late and i was on my phone. people rarely want to talk new first party series

I’d say my most wanted characters from first party games without one yet are Officer Howard and Isaac. I had fun playing the original Golden Sun and Astral Chain and both have fun main characters with unique moveset potential. Both games also have great soundtracks. I really want to see Jenna Anderson and Saturos/Menardi in Smash too but neither makes a ton of sense without their main protagonists. Jenna would make a great second character but I feel like Felix is more likely as the second Golden Sun character though he’s cool too.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Personally, I prefer how he plays over Mario so I hope he sticks around.

Same. Dr. Tornado > FLUDD.

I’d say my most wanted characters from first party games without one yet are Officer Howard and Isaac.

Captain Toad/Toadette and King Hippo.

 

[Gengar84]

Same. Dr. Tornado > FLUDD.

Captain Toad/Toadette and King Hippo.

I was talking about from franchises without a character yet. You could argue Captain Toad is his own separate thing from Mario but Toad is a Mario character and the Captain himself originated in Galaxy. King Hippo is from Punch Out and we have Little Mac so that’s not a new IP for a Smash character. Both would be welcome additions though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Easily has the merits to stay. A reasonably iconic character, easy to create, a fun moveset, a rather popular series. Also it gives us two variable movesets properly. And unlike, say, Paper Mario, Dr. Mario actually works as playing similar to Mario in general.

Honestly, the only clone or Echo that has issues outright is Daisy(and that's due to not having anything but a unique hurtbox). Richter and Dark Samus to a far lesser degree, but they still stand out a tad more(moreso the latter, due to a completely different elemental setup. Richter just barely is different, but not enough).

None of the Echoes are in danger unless their counterpart is in danger, and the only clones/semi-clones in danger are mainly Young Link(who isn't entirely a clone anymore by proxy), Jigglypuff somewhat(though only due to it being constantly treated as a "eh, might not make it" more than once), Pichu, Wolf, and Lucas still. Roy could potentially be in danger, as well. Ultimately, the Mario characters don't have many in danger; Bowser Jr. could be if they have issues getting him working, Piranha Plant was more of a fun addition that isn't necessarily coming back(not a joke character, mind you), and that's... kind of it(besides what I said about Echo stuff). I can't see Rosalina being cut any time soon, and the basic four are safe entirely.

A good chunk of a lot of these have a bigger danger with a true reboot(the Mario, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem cast would blatantly get cut down with that factor in, though anything like quick clones/semi-clones/echoes are far less in danger at that point because of their ease of creation. But it's not always that simple. It's not the sole factor, after all).

 

[Perkilator]

Clone or not, I always thought Dr. Mario as a separate playable character was one of the most pointless additions to Smash.

 

[Gengar84]

Clone or not, I always thought Dr. Mario as a separate playable character was one of the most pointless additions to Smash.

I agree. I think he would have made a lot more sense as an alternate costume because that’s literally what he is. I think if they were going to cut him, I’d rather him stay but be demoted to a costume. I’m okay if he stays as is too since he doesn’t take a ton of resources at least.

 

[Speed Weed]

Honestly I just think Dr. Mario is funny because if he hadn't gotten in Melee, he'd be seen as an utterly deranged choice. Like in the alternate timeline where he does not get in Smash, if you suggested him, you'd get your **** kicked in and be called a madman. But due to specific circumstances he's just been grandfathered into the Smash roster. It's hilarious

 

[Laniv]

Back in 2001, I thought Dr. Mario's inclusion was funny because he threw pills instead of fireballs.

Nowadays... I'd keep him around, but if I could replace him with someone like Toad, I would

 

[ZephyrZ]

I feel like Dr.Mario is really popular with parts of the scene. Like not in the sense that he's a huge fan favorite but moreso that for some reason some of the people who like him seem to really like him. I always see people gushing about his stomp and his back throw. I don't see people get that excited about...any of the actual echo fighters honestly.

 

[Gengar84]

Something that I would absolutely love but may be impossible is a completely revamped stage builder. I had a lot of fun with what we have but there are a ton of limitations that hold it back. My dream scenario is the ability to create our own stages that look just as good as official stages but I feel like the logistics of doing something like that might not be possible yet. The current stage builder stages end up looking like cardboard cutouts like a Paper Mario game. If that does prove impossible, I’d at least like to be able to choose any existing background, change color of materials, and set spawn points.

 

[Noipoi]

I am Dr. Mario and I am saving lives

 

[fogbadge]

Back in 2001, I thought Dr. Mario's inclusion was funny because he threw pills instead of fireballs.

Nowadays... I'd keep him around, but if I could replace him with someone like Toad, I would

yeah that’s how I felt back in the day too