Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly given the propensity for Wii era remakes, Wario Land Shake It is a wonderful little game that deserves a bigger audience via a Switch/Switch remaster/port and is pretty worthy of getting elements from it into Smash to boot.

 

[SPEN18]

Something pretty interesting that was brought to my attention recently, working off a conversation I started a week or so ago. I mostly brought up that I considered Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Pikmin to be some of the biggest winners of the last generation and worth considering as some of their big dogs, especially when considering what first party content may be added in a future Smash incarnation. But Nintendo made a pretty interesting addition to their series portals on their Japanese site recently.

Lo and behold, Wario gets to sit among Nintendo's heaviest hitters. Granted this could definitely be more of a promotional move for the release of WarioWare Move It, but I thought it was neat to see him there. Also take notice, Wario Land truthers, that the series is simply labeled "Wario". Not reading too much into it right now but I'd love to see them start pushing Wario even more in the future.

I guess to tie it into Smash, how do you guys think Wario can get expanded on next time around? I'll ignore the obvious Wario Land part in favor of mentioning that not even WarioWARE got any new content in Smash Ultimate - in fact it outright lost content since Kat & Ana did not return as an Assist Trophy. Brawl's collection of Ware remixes are some of my favorite in the entire series, provide such a fun wacky flair to the game and it makes me upset that we haven't seen too much more since then. I think ignoring Body Rock from WarioWare DIY was a heinous crime.

I'm not sure if I'd necessarily advocate for more characters - I wouldn't turn them down whatsoever, but I think we're okay as is. Giving major players like Mona or Jimmy T just a bit more presence in the game some way or another would be appreciated though. Maybe as additional ATs or stage cameos.

Usually it's best not to read too much into these kinds of things individually but it's still useful to observe what gets consistently promoted on official websites, yeah.
In this case, Wario being there is probably just to promote the new game, as you say. What's actually more interesting about this image to me is how they use the trio of Marth, Ike, and Lyn for Fire Emblem. Makes sense, with Marth being the de facto mascot and Ike/Lyn being the most consistently popular male/female characters. It's also funny how they're using the original concept arts there, which are pretty old by now (but still look great! FE really hit its artistic stride in the 00s).
Also we see once again Nook and Isabelle forming the power AC duo.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I find it weird that Ike is just that popular when his game isnt easily available anywhere.

 

[dream1ng]

In retrospect, back in the Rare-Nintendo days a DK team already should've been established between the two companies. That would have kept them together for sure.

Like a team at Rare that solely worked on DK? I'm not sure things would've been much different tbh. They put out DK titles about as regularly as a normal team would've, and the last main one that preceded the sale was very successful.

If anything, I think having so many co-owned IPs Nintendo would either have to contest legally or relinquish would be a bigger factor in keeping them together, rather than one they knew they wouldn't lose like DK. But that didn't do the trick either.

It's still a bit of a mystery why Nintendo didn't buy Rare out (I don't buy into claims that they were "slipping"), but I don't think "not enough DK" was one of them.

Something pretty interesting that was brought to my attention recently, working off a conversation I started a week or so ago. I mostly brought up that I considered Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Pikmin to be some of the biggest winners of the last generation and worth considering as some of their big dogs, especially when considering what first party content may be added in a future Smash incarnation. But Nintendo made a pretty interesting addition to their series portals on their Japanese site recently.

Lo and behold, Wario gets to sit among Nintendo's heaviest hitters. Granted this could definitely be more of a promotional move for the release of WarioWare Move It, but I thought it was neat to see him there. Also take notice, Wario Land truthers, that the series is simply labeled "Wario". Not reading too much into it right now but I'd love to see them start pushing Wario even more in the future.

I'm gonna guess in a year or two from now instead of Pikmin and Wario it's gonna be DK and Xenoblade.

I guess to tie it into Smash, how do you guys think Wario can get expanded on next time around? I'll ignore the obvious Wario Land part in favor of mentioning that not even WarioWARE got much new content in Smash Ultimate - in fact it outright lost content since Kat & Ana did not return as an Assist Trophy. Brawl's collection of Ware remixes are some of my favorite in the entire series, provide such a fun wacky flair to the game and it makes me upset that we haven't seen too much more since then. I think ignoring Body Rock from WarioWare DIY was a heinous crime.

I'm not sure if I'd necessarily advocate for more characters - I wouldn't turn them down whatsoever, but I think we're okay as is. Giving major players like Mona or Jimmy T just a bit more presence in the game some way or another would be appreciated though. Maybe as additional ATs or stage cameos.

Add Ashley? The first party stable isn't that deep anymore, they're gonna have room if they add a normal amount of them. She's definitely the most popular option, WarioWare gets regular enough releases, and Wario getting a second character seems reasonable.

Sure they can add more supporting content, I hope they do, but I feel like both series (Smash and Wario) are at a point where another character doesn't need to happen or anything but makes sense. And Ashley is one the fans like. If not being current is still gonna keep characters like Isaac, Skull Kid, Lyn, Krystal, etc. out, this is at least one popular pick who wouldn't be stymied by that.

Though her demand dried up so dramatically after she was AT'd I wonder how much it will actually return. She used to be quite requested, but you'd never be able to tell these days.

And it goes without saying Wario Land should get more major content, but I think it'll need a new game to do that.

I find it weird that Ike is just that popular when his game isnt easily available anywhere.

More people know FE characters from Smash than from FE, even in Japan. It's more a testament to Lyn tbh.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Nobody talks about CD-I Ganon. I feel a little disappointed.

Nintendo has decided to never reference or mention the Zelda CD-i games ever tbh. It's like in Nintendo's mind they don't exist. We're not seeing Zelda CD-i in Smash any time soon

 

[cashregister9]

Saw this on Twitter

Another way to get the Smash Bros. Switch

 

[Noipoi]

Saw this on Twitter

Another way to get the Smash Bros. Switch

I can't believe this confirms Smash Ultimate Deluxe HD & Knuckles

 

[PeridotGX]

Something pretty interesting that was brought to my attention recently, working off a conversation I started a week or so ago. I mostly brought up that I considered Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Pikmin to be some of the biggest winners of the last generation and worth considering as some of their big dogs, especially when considering what first party content may be added in a future Smash incarnation. But Nintendo made a pretty interesting addition to their series portals on their Japanese site recently.

Lo and behold, Wario gets to sit among Nintendo's heaviest hitters. Granted this could definitely be more of a promotional move for the release of WarioWare Move It, but I thought it was neat to see him there. Also take notice, Wario Land truthers, that the series is simply labeled "Wario". Not reading too much into it right now but I'd love to see them start pushing Wario even more in the future.

I guess to tie it into Smash, how do you guys think Wario can get expanded on next time around? I'll ignore the obvious Wario Land part in favor of mentioning that not even WarioWARE got much new content in Smash Ultimate - in fact it outright lost content since Kat & Ana did not return as an Assist Trophy. Brawl's collection of Ware remixes are some of my favorite in the entire series, provide such a fun wacky flair to the game and it makes me upset that we haven't seen too much more since then. I think ignoring Body Rock from WarioWare DIY was a heinous crime.

I'm not sure if I'd necessarily advocate for more characters - I wouldn't turn them down whatsoever, but I think we're okay as is. Giving major players like Mona or Jimmy T just a bit more presence in the game some way or another would be appreciated though. Maybe as additional ATs or stage cameos.

I'm not a huge fan of her (especially because adding her would essentially kill Kamek's chances), but Ashley is in a really good position. I remember people thinking she was likely for base Ultimate, and she's in virtually the same position she was then. The only issue is Waluigi, another Wario aligned character that might outprioritize her, but they technically aren't even part of the same series so it's dubious if they would impact each other at all

 

[DarthEnderX]

Honestly given the propensity for Wii era remakes, Wario Land Shake It is a wonderful little game that deserves a bigger audience via a Switch/Switch remaster/port and is pretty worthy of getting elements from it into Smash to boot.

I want more Wii Punch-Out!!

 

[Vintage Creep]

Every single time there's a feeling a new Smash game is getting closer, people start talking about a "reboot", "massive cuts", "back to origin" type of conversations like it's logical and needed lol, but it NEVER happens. Any new Smash is ALWAYS going to be bigger than the previous one for one simple reason: that's its marketing appeal. Smash Ultimate is the best selling fighting game of all time for one simple reason: it's huge, its roster is insanely huge.

I've seen video "essays" (damn how is it that any Smash related video essay ends up being horrible lol) claiming there's no way next Smash is as big as Ultimate without any reason whatsoever. One of them said that we're getting back to a 50 character roster, which is big don't get me wrong, and then proceeded to cut Meta Knight, a perfectly implemented veteran, in favor of Bandana Dee "for reasons" lmao. Mega Man getting cut but Ryu still getting in, that kinda ****. It's so stupid it becomes annoying.

Yeah, we might get some cuts. And to be honest, there are a lot of characters who really do not deserve to come back: Dr. Mario, one of the Links, all the Fire Emblem clones, a couple of Pokémons, Mii Brawler really is enough so Gunner and Swordfighter can go, yep, it might happen. Basically all the clones or very similar concept characters. Maybe a few more for licensing / technical reasons (looking at Disney / Microsoft, or dual characters like the Climbers, Olimar or even Rosalina). 15 to 20 cuts out of the 89 now available is comprehensible, but it's not like we're not getting new incredible reps in return.

Of one thing I'm absolutely certain: Smash 6 is going to break the 100 character roster size one way or the other, through DLC, more clones, and completely new and fresh characters. There's no coming back, they can easily use Ultimate as a base for developing factors and do it. They've proven time and time again they can, and that they want to.

People claiming a complete rebuild of its gameplay are even more insane. Yes, we have a game which sold 30+ million copies in a genre which is usually considered niche. Let's completely change the next one! It makes so much sense! Same stupid talk happened before Ultimate released, see where it landed lmao. Probably the same "Ridley's too big", "Snake is never coming back", "Banjo and Sora are impossible" crowd. I don't know why they annoy me so much lol.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Ashley is a dark horse in terms of first party candidates. Wario Ware is going through a Renaissance ever since Wario Ware Gold came out. It's had three new games in the last five years and each of them are selling decently. Ashley is the de facto pick for a new Wario character and we know she's a popular character.

What do you guys think about Ashley? Would she be a good choice? How would she work? Do you think her fanbase will recover?

 

[Ivander]

What do you guys think about Ashley? Would she be a good choice? How would she work? Do you think her fanbase will recover?

I think she has potential, like just about any other character. And really, she can use a mix of curses as well as regular ranged spell gameplay, considering some of the games that featured her as playable were Shoot-em-up style(like Game & Wario and portrayal-wise WarioWare Gold) or had her using Shoot-em-up style gameplay(like Get it Together). Heck, considering her assistant Red is used for transforming into a broom/wand/etc for Ashley, you could also add Red to her gameplay to mix in some pseudo ally elements similar to Duck Hunt, like Red dropping a bomb on enemies.

Also it'd be nice if her getting in Smash meant the possibility of giving WarioWare some spotlight in other Mario crossover games, like Mario Kart.

 

[EarlTamm]

What do you guys think about Ashley? Would she be a good choice? How would she work? Do you think her fanbase will recover?

I would really like to see her since it would be cool to have a witch character on the roster, but its really hard for me to pin down a moveset. Ashley certainly has a lot of potential as a fighter due to her spellcasting prowess, but what we have mainly seen from her in her unique non-micro minigames is basic projectiles that would fit in the neutral special slot. Her up special would likely be Red turning into her broomstick for a brief flight, but after that a lot of creative liberties are likely to be taken. I don't mind that, and I actually think they could do some cool things if they lean into how Red might factor into her moveset.

 

[Ivander]

The WarioWare ignorance would be real if they ignored putting in Ashley from WarioWare as a playable character and put in her version from Crazy Galaxy...
.
.
.

Spoiler

In case you are wondering "What the actual **** is a Crazy Galaxy?", would you literally believe an April Fools joke?...from the Nintendo Badge Arcade?.....from the Japanese version?
https://www.mariowiki.com/Nintendo_Badge_Arcade#Crazy_Galaxy

I completely forgot how much the Badge Arcade had a fascination with Ashley, with how many times she appeared even in non-WarioWare sets and sometimes alongside Isabelle and Nikki. Seeing a April Fools joke dedicated to her is so bizarre.

 

[EarlTamm]

The WarioWare ignorance would be real if they ignored putting in Ashley from WarioWare as a playable character and put in her version from Crazy Galaxy...
.
.
.

Spoiler

In case you are wondering "What the actual **** is a Crazy Galaxy?", would you literally believe an April Fools joke?...from the Nintendo Badge Arcade?.....from the Japanese version?
https://www.mariowiki.com/Nintendo_Badge_Arcade#Crazy_Galaxy

I completely forgot how much the Badge Arcade had a fascination with Ashley, with how many times she appeared even in non-WarioWare sets and sometimes alongside Isabelle and Nikki. Seeing a April Fools joke dedicated to her is so bizarre.

Now I want one of her taunts to be Red turning into a guitar just for the obscure nod.

 

[dream1ng]

Every single time there's a feeling a new Smash game is getting closer, people start talking about a "reboot", "massive cuts", "back to origin" type of conversations like it's logical and needed lol, but it NEVER happens. Any new Smash is ALWAYS going to be bigger than the previous one for one simple reason: that's its marketing appeal.

The marketing appeal is more the characters than the amount of characters. Ultimate leaned hard into the quantity because if you bother bringing everyone back you better play that card. But it's not the most essential aspect of the marketing appeal.

If Smash cuts a lot of the vets but keeps the biggest faces and most of the fanbase favorites and adds like ~25 newcomers, many of whom are popular/compelling in their own right, the game will have retained its marketing appeal.

And most of Smash's audience will just buy the game if it looks cool. Which it will once they start dropping new newcomer trailers and people go "omg they added x?!". It's mostly the diehards that will throw a **** fit at cuts. More casual fans are more likely take it in stride, cuts are a regular part of video games.

Smash Ultimate is the best selling fighting game of all time for one simple reason: it's huge, its roster is insanely huge.

No, it's because it's the Smash game on Switch.

Gen 8 is the best selling gen since Gen 1, and yet in comparison to some of the previous gens it kinda blows. And it launched with fewer mons than in the past. It literally cut a huge part of the Dex and really outraged the fanbase. But it's Pokemon, and it was on Switch.

MK8D has more content now, but for the first, what? four years it had little more than MK8, and yet those two games mark one of the lowest and the highest selling MK games. Was it because they added Inkling? Or because of the difference in install base.

If the next Smash games makes no cuts and only expands, but the Switch 2 doesn't get close to the Switch's install base, you'll have a bigger roster and a game that nevertheless does not attain Ultimate's sales.

I've seen video "essays" (damn how is it that any Smash related video essay ends up being horrible lol) claiming there's no way next Smash is as big as Ultimate without any reason whatsoever. One of them said that we're getting back to a 50 character roster, which is big don't get me wrong, and then proceeded to cut Meta Knight, a perfectly implemented veteran, in favor of Bandana Dee "for reasons" lmao. Mega Man getting cut but Ryu still getting in, that kinda ****. It's so stupid it becomes annoying.

Well one reason is because Sakurai has implied as much.

And Sakurai having changed his mind about some things does not invalidate everything he says. Many others he's stood by.

Yeah, we might get some cuts. And to be honest, there are a lot of characters who really do not deserve to come back: Dr. Mario, one of the Links, all the Fire Emblem clones, a couple of Pokémons, Mii Brawler really is enough so Gunner and Swordfighter can go, yep, it might happen.

I doubt they reduce the Mii options, because it limits that DLC market and would complicate bringing back a lot of the costumes.

Basically all the clones or very similar concept characters. Maybe a few more for licensing / technical reasons (looking at Disney / Microsoft, or dual characters like the Climbers, Olimar or even Rosalina). 15 to 20 cuts out of the 89 now available is comprehensible, but it's not like we're not getting new incredible reps in return.

That's not a realistic number of cuts. They're not going to be able to get back to even like 70 vets if they start over considering they also have to focus on newcomers. At that point it would be nearing 100 characters. If they start over it's gonna be more cuts than that. If they don't start over and keep building off Ultimate like they did Smash 4, there's no reason to cut anyone apart from who they couldn't relicense.

Of one thing I'm absolutely certain: Smash 6 is going to break the 100 character roster size one way or the other, through DLC, more clones, and completely new and fresh characters. There's no coming back, they can easily use Ultimate as a base for developing factors and do it. They've proven time and time again they can, and that they want to.

It's only going to break 100 if they don't rebuild.

And it will rebuild eventually. Exponential growth isn't sustainable. In the recent video on Ultimate Sakurai listed past reasons such as moving to a different developer and the current technology making the previous data of limited use as reason they rebuilt. Eventually one or both of those will happen again.

People claiming a complete rebuild of its gameplay are even more insane. Yes, we have a game which sold 30+ million copies in a genre which is usually considered niche. Let's completely change the next one! It makes so much sense!

I agree the gameplay isn't getting completely overhauled. If they want to take Smash in a totally new direction like a 3D fighter, I don't think it will happen at the expense of the 2D fighter - I think it would happen in conjunction where both can exist.

Same stupid talk happened before Ultimate released, see where it landed lmao. Probably the same "Ridley's too big", "Snake is never coming back", "Banjo and Sora are impossible" crowd.

This degree of revisionism hurts. Yeah they ended up being disproven, but stupid talk? Stupid talk to think Disney wouldn't cooperate? That we wouldn't get a character from a rival company? That Konami would continue to be dickheads? That Sakurai would stick to his recent opinion on Ridley?

There's a difference between incorrect and stupid. None of these takes were illogical.

You know what's stupid talk to me? Getting this far in Smash and deciding something will never happen because it hasn't happened yet.

Personally I think "Smash will only ever get bigger because it hasn't yet not" is a take extremely vulnerable to eventual ridicule. I mean it doesn't really take logistics into account at all. It's not possible to outnumber Ultimate if you rebuild the roster, and the factors that Sakurai outlined as reasons they started over in the past will eventually happen again.

I don't know why they annoy me so much lol.

I don't either. Since I bet you've said things that were proven untrue at some point as well. Everyone has.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I don't know why they annoy me so much lol.

It gets exhausting having to constantly listen to long-winded rants of people insisting that one of the most successful games ever created can't replicate a feat it's already accomplished once.

 

[dream1ng]

It get's exhausting having to constantly listen to long-winded rants of people insisting that one of the most successful games ever created can't replicated a feat it's already accomplished once.

Yes I'm looking forward to the next Mario Kart bringing back all its courses, karts and characters

 

[fogbadge]

Usually it's best not to read too much into these kinds of things individually but it's still useful to observe what gets consistently promoted on official websites, yeah.
In this case, Wario being there is probably just to promote the new game, as you say. What's actually more interesting about this image to me is how they use the trio of Marth, Ike, and Lyn for Fire Emblem. Makes sense, with Marth being the de facto mascot and Ike/Lyn being the most consistently popular male/female characters. It's also funny how they're using the original concept arts there, which are pretty old by now (but still look great! FE really hit its artistic stride in the 00s).
Also we see once again Nook and Isabelle forming the power AC duo.

that's promo art not concept art

 

[RodNutTakin]

I dunno, I think the next Mario Kart bringing back everyone from 8DX plus adding in the Tour remainders isn't too farfetched. Ditto with the kart parts assuming they continue using that system.
Only thing is courses, but to me, they're comparable to characters in a traditional non-crossover fighting game where they can easily get away with starting over literally every new installment.
That's generally the one thing that's irked me a lot with this discussion in general, thinking that SSB needs to follow the same rules with character lineups that normal fighting games do. Characters added to SSB are taken from other pre-existing IPs, meaning that even if a secondary or minor character from a series (such as Falco, Jigglypuff, Sheik etc.) are added, that character usually already has some innate popularity carried over from their home series's fanbase. Even "unpopular" picks like Incineroar or Piranha Plant still have people that are happy just to see them added to the game.
With a game like Street Fighter or Tekken, all characters are originally made for the game, barring guest characters (which IMO should not be conflated with Smash's third parties so much). Those games can get away with removing characters at a moment's notice, because if specific characters are unpopular, they have nothing else to fall on (primarily not having any prior appearances outside of these games).
Even then, both of these series I have mentioned (and many others) have still tangled with the dilemma of cuts. Street Fighter III was very unpopular for a long time since nearly all of II's cast was gone (Ryu and Ken weren't even planned to return initially). With Tekken, you have the Tag games that both put good emphasis on having nearly everyone return--Tag 1 included around every character from the first 3 titles (besides the T1 incarnation of Jack), and by the time Tag 2 had reached its definitive version on the Wii U, nearly everyone from the first 6 installments were playable in some way. This isn't even going into stuff like Soul Calibur V nearly killing the series because nearly everyone was replaced from previous installments.
I'm very tired and rambling if you can't tell. Besides the Mario Kart stuff I guess my point is that the nature of Smash being a crossover game makes it harder to percieve any of the characters as being expendable, compared to something like ARMS which I could see characters getting switched out if we get a 2nd one. Smash's roster shouldn't be approached the same way as a traditional fighter would.

 

[Curious Villager]

well the thing i was thinking in particular was when he said he couldn't have botw zelda cause she's not a fighter yet we have isabelle. so he was either overthinking the former or making stuff up

I feel like people tend to get a bit too hung up on just that quote too much, If I recall correctly, Sakurai also stated during the first Smash Ultimate Treehouse segment that he wanted to represent multiple different Zelda games with the characters this time around over just focusing solely on one entry (Plus Wind Waker with Toon Link) like he did in the past.

Which I personally find to be a more reasonable and better explanation for the different designs, and I personally quite like that direction and kinda hope they keep it that way for future entries too as it adds a bit more to the crossover element of Smash as well instead of having most of the cast limited to one game at a time, but that's probably just me.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I can't believe this confirms Smash Ultimate Deluxe HD & Knuckles

It also includes a New Funky Mode and Features Dante from the Devil May Cry series.

 

[fogbadge]

I feel like people tend to get a bit too hung up on just that quote too much, If I recall correctly, Sakurai also stated during the first Smash Ultimate Treehouse segment that he wanted to represent multiple different Zelda games with the characters this time around over just focusing solely on one entry (Plus Wind Waker with Toon Link) like he did in the past.

Which I personally find to be a more reasonable and better explanation for the different designs, and I personally quite like that direction and kinda hope they keep it that way for future entries too as it adds a bit more to the crossover element of Smash as well instead of having most of the cast limited to one game at a time, but that's probably just me.

sure he said that but half the designs come from oot. well ok shiek’s design takes bits of the stealth armour from botw so technically she’s based on link cosplaying as her but that’s besides the point. he wasn’t that committed to the idea

 

[Noipoi]

If Sakurai ever decides to look to WarioWare for a newcomer, Ashley’s got the best shot out of all of them.

The question is, would Sakurai ever look to WarioWare?

 

[DarthEnderX]

I dunno, I think the next Mario Kart bringing back everyone from 8DX plus adding in the Tour remainders isn't too farfetched.

Same. Tour and MK8D's DLC have laid so much of the groundwork. Over 2/3rds of the courses in the entire series now have up-to-date modern versions.

MK9. Everycourse is Here!

sure he said that but half the designs come from oot. well ok shiek’s design takes bits of the stealth armour from botw so technically she’s based on link cosplaying as her but that’s besides the point. he wasn’t that committed to the idea

4 eras represented across 6 characters is pretty good.

 

[fogbadge]

Same. Tour and MK8D's DLC have laid so much of the groundwork. Over 2/3rds of the courses in the entire series now have up-to-date modern versions.

MK9. Everycourse is Here!

4 eras represented across 6 characters is pretty good.

there was 19 games at the time of release

 

[SPEN18]

that's promo art not concept art

Yes, it's the official artwork. Couldn't think of the right adjective at the time, my bad.

 

[Garteam]

Both the "Everyone is Here will happen again and Dante and Master Chief will be there" camp and the "Smash Kurfuffle will cut half the vets, 75% of the third parties, and will add a bunch of late Switch-era reps" camp seem to be avoiding what Sakurai is saying. Yeah, Sakurai not knowing how to top Ultimate likely means that, at least for the base game, the next Smash will be smaller in scope but that certainly doesn't mean Sakurai has to throw his hands up and say "**** it, we're undoing the last decade of progress for Smash and going back to the same design philosophy seen in Smash for". Smash is, at the end of the day, a corporate product designed to make money. It doesn't take an Ivey League business professor to foresee that a 50-character roster with newcomers like Alear and Noah/Mio would be a MvCI-tier disaster in terms of reception, especially if the Switch's successor is backwards compatible and the game ends up having to more directly compete with Ultimate. Smash's selling point, more than any other fighting game on the market, is its roster and it is always been the aspect of the game that has received the most focus when building and advertising Smash sequels.

My guess is that the character roster will be between 60 and 70 characters, but the next Smash will be even more iterative than previous entries as a result. A lot of people like to bring up that Ultimate was only able to add 6 unique, base-game newcomers even though it was built off Smash for, but that's also ignoring all of the other content that Ultimate added. The majority of the veterans from Brawl and before received new animations and attacks, just about every stage from the series' history was remade, a couple dozen new Assist trophies and Pokemon were added, there was a good variety of new items added, and the game was even heavily reworked in terms of both mechanics and appearance. These elements are probably what will suffer most in the jump to the next Smash. We'll see fewer stages, assist trophies, veteran changes, and even gameplay changes in the interest of keeping the roster large. Whether this trade-off would make the next Smash a better game will subjectively vary, but it's tough to not say that it would make the next Smash into a more palatable product for general consumers.

I also think cutting a massive portion of the existing third parties is pretty disconnected from how things will go. There's really no reason to cut basically any third-party in Ultimate other than the additional licensing difficulties that come with obtaining IPs not owned by Nintendo or a subsidiary. Even then, most of those franchises in Smash are licensed out pretty liberally and the companies that control these IPs have strong relationships with Nintendo and are pretty good at managing the bundle of rights that makes up their intellectual property. The only real exception to that last point is Square-Enix due to certain developers and corporate partners owning some elements of the copyright, but these are the exceptions that prove the rule.

I've seen some people express concern over the licensing cost, but I don't think that's a massive issue. A new Smash is always a seminal title in a console's lineup, everyone knows the series is at a turning point that may define its success long-term, Nintendo is in a financial situation where they could invest in higher-cost development, and Smash has proven to be lucrative enough to make this a relatively safe investment. There may feasibly be no way to affordably bring every third party from Ultimate back for the base game, but I don't think bringing back most of the third parties is out of the question or even unlikely. Even if licensing costs do become an issue, they could play smarter with the budget by adding secondary characters from franchises already in Smash. Ultimate has basically the entire extended casts of Sonic, Mega Man, Street Fighter, and Castlevania in it already, so you may capitalize off that get upgrade some of those characters to become playable.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Yes I'm looking forward to the next Mario Kart bringing back all its courses, karts and characters

For the love of all that is holy dont bring back Mario Kart 8's base roster.

It sucked.

 

[Louie G.]

What do you guys think about Ashley? Would she be a good choice? How would she work? Do you think her fanbase will recover?

I kind of feel like the stars aligned for Ashley during Ultimate? Particularly Nintendo Badge Arcade did a number to improve her presence, she was pretty much a go-to character for fun cross promotions like that one piece of Tank Troopers art. You can mostly thank Ko Takeuchi for all the cute Ashley outfits since he absolutely loves drawing her. I think the Crazy Galaxy april fools thing really sparked some excitement around her too, humoring the idea of her straight up starring in her own game. Ultimately these were pretty small victories but enough to establish Ashley as the dominant Wario character and keep her active in people's minds. I'm not sure how much this holds true right now but she has quite the dedicated fanbase that I'm sure won't entirely disappear.

You look at Ultimate proper and Ashley has a surprisingly strong presence in the game. She has an AT, a Mii Costume, her iconic theme song has two different arrangements now and she alongside Wario Man is a 4-star spirit. That's pretty much the most you can possibly win without becoming playable full stop. With all of these things in mind it's pretty much inarguable that if we DID get another WarioWare character it would be her, unless another supporting character has a huge influx in popularity or significance before next game.

Personally I do think she'd be a good choice, as would a number of other WW characters. But with Ashley in particular, as others have addressed we don't really have a witch character in the game - Bayonetta withstanding - and we're lacking pure magic users in general. Many of the other WW characters' movesets may end up feeling a little scrapped together and random but Ashley has a lot of very concrete potential out the gate. Cartoony magic spells, Red to assist with various moves or work as a puppet, even just with these two elements you can build a really compelling moveset. Idk if she's my absolute overwhelmingly favorite choice but she's certainly the one who I can envision working in Smash the best. Maybe Mona as a distant second, with all of her odd jobs.

Support wise we'll have to see. Excitement around Wario's future in Smash, at least in the west, seems to be centralized in discussing changing him to better represent Wario Land. Personally I think if we really want to make a statement about Wario Land it would be far more productive to rally behind someone like Captain Syrup, especially because I think some people unfairly downplay WW in the process and I also think fighting for total moveset overhauls has proven to be kind of a waste of time. We can hope for some smaller changes to bring Wario closer to a middle point between the two but I personally enjoy how strange he is. In any case - tying this back to Ashley, she'll probably remain the most popular Wario character but at the moment there isn't as much lifting her up high over everyone else like there was between Smash 4 and Ultimate. I can see them adding her if they simply feel incentivized to expand on Wario but I'm not totally convinced yet. But I would personally welcome it enthusiastically.

 

[Curious Villager]

sure he said that but half the designs come from oot. well ok shiek’s design takes bits of the stealth armour from botw so technically she’s based on link cosplaying as her but that’s besides the point. he wasn’t that committed to the idea

I mean,
Breath of the Wild
A Link to the Past/Between Worlds
Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker (The rest of the Toon games in general if you count them)
Is still a pretty good spread compared to past games, I'd probably just change Sheik back to her sole canon Ocarina of Time look, Ganondorf to his Twilight Princess look, and if Young Link where to come back, give him his Majora's Mask gear and you're pretty much golden.

The question is, would Sakurai ever look to WarioWare?

I mean, he'd look to it sooner than Wario Land that's for sure, sorry, too soon, too soon...

In all seriousness, its quite odd Nintendo never really marketed the Wario Ware cast a bit more with merch and other non Smash game appearances and whatnot, they've been around for about 20 years now and received consistent games on every single console since the original GBA I believe, or at least for Ashley since they acknowledged her popularity in the past...

I'm pretty sure even Pikmin received a lot more merchandise and whatnot over the years...

 

[fogbadge]

I mean,
Breath of the Wild
A Link to the Past/Between Worlds
Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker (The rest of the Toon games in general if you count them)
Is still a pretty good spread compared to past games, I'd probably just change Sheik back to her sole canon Ocarina of Time look, Ganondorf to his Twilight Princess look, and if Young Link where to come back, give him his Majora's Mask gear and you're pretty much golden.

exactly they could have done more but they chose less. other franchises have a wider spread

 

[CommanderZaktan]

Something pretty interesting that was brought to my attention recently, working off a conversation I started a week or so ago. I mostly brought up that I considered Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Pikmin to be some of the biggest winners of the last generation and worth considering as some of their big dogs, especially when considering what first party content may be added in a future Smash incarnation. But Nintendo made a pretty interesting addition to their series portals on their Japanese site recently.

Lo and behold, Wario gets to sit among Nintendo's heaviest hitters. Granted this could definitely be more of a promotional move for the release of WarioWare Move It, but I thought it was neat to see him there. Also take notice, Wario Land truthers, that the series is simply labeled "Wario". Not reading too much into it right now but I'd love to see them start pushing Wario even more in the future.

I guess to tie it into Smash, how do you guys think Wario can get expanded on next time around? I'll ignore the obvious Wario Land part in favor of mentioning that not even WarioWARE got much new content in Smash Ultimate - in fact it outright lost content since Kat & Ana did not return as an Assist Trophy. Brawl's collection of Ware remixes are some of my favorite in the entire series, provide such a fun wacky flair to the game and it makes me upset that we haven't seen too much more since then. I think ignoring Body Rock from WarioWare DIY was a heinous crime.

I'm not sure if I'd necessarily advocate for more characters - I wouldn't turn them down whatsoever, but I think we're okay as is. Giving major players like Mona or Jimmy T just a bit more presence in the game some way or another would be appreciated though. Maybe as additional ATs or stage cameos.

Ashley confirmed for the new Smash Bros?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean,
Breath of the Wild
A Link to the Past/Between Worlds
Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker (The rest of the Toon games in general if you count them)
Is still a pretty good spread compared to past games, I'd probably just change Sheik back to her sole canon Ocarina of Time look, Ganondorf to his Twilight Princess look, and if Young Link where to come back, give him his Majora's Mask gear and you're pretty much golden.


I mean, he'd look to it sooner than Wario Land that's for sure, sorry, too soon, too soon...

In all seriousness, its quite odd Nintendo never really marketed the Wario Ware cast a bit more with merch and other non Smash game appearances and whatnot, they've been around for about 20 years now and received consistent games on every single console since the original GBA I believe, or at least for Ashley since they acknowledged her popularity in the past...

I'm pretty sure even Pikmin received a lot more merchandise and whatnot over the years...

It's because Nintendo themselves don't develop Wario Ware.

At least I think that's the case.

 

[Curious Villager]

It's because Nintendo themselves don't develop Wario Ware.

At least I think that's the case.

I guess IS won't really do much more with their properties outside of FE I suppose.
I don't think even Paper Mario went much outside of its own bubble either.

A shame, since I think a Wario Ware based animated shorts tv show would have been quite fun to see and help flesh out the cast a bit more, I think they kinda did that for a bit during Gold's release.

 

[Louie G.]

In all seriousness, its quite odd Nintendo never really marketed the Wario Ware cast a bit more with merch and other non Smash game appearances and whatnot, they've been around for about 20 years now and received consistent games on every single console since the original GBA I believe, or at least for Ashley since they acknowledged her popularity in the past...

I do want to mention, it feels like stock in the WW supporting cast has went up a substantial amount after Get It Together. At the very least they've been having the crew share a lot of screentime together, building them up more as this close knit dysfunctional family. I think they've been more prominent in the general marketing of the Switch titles and again, especially in GIT being able to play as all of them each with a fun little quirk was one of the selling points.

They could definitely do more, I think they're still just a little bit underneath the usual field of vision / prominence for serious Smash candidates (in my own subjective metric at least, and barring Ashley) but I feel like I've been seeing them more lately, slowly but surely they're a bit more confident in them.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I want more Wii Punch-Out!!

Same here!

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's because Nintendo themselves don't develop Wario Ware.

At least I think that's the case.

It's split between Intelligent Systems and the remnants of Nintendo R&D1, who are still part of an internal Nintendo studio.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I mean,
Breath of the Wild
A Link to the Past/Between Worlds
Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker (The rest of the Toon games in general if you count them)
Is still a pretty good spread compared to past games, I'd probably just change Sheik back to her sole canon Ocarina of Time look, Ganondorf to his Twilight Princess look, and if Young Link where to come back, give him his Majora's Mask gear and you're pretty much golden.


I mean, he'd look to it sooner than Wario Land that's for sure, sorry, too soon, too soon...

In all seriousness, its quite odd Nintendo never really marketed the Wario Ware cast a bit more with merch and other non Smash game appearances and whatnot, they've been around for about 20 years now and received consistent games on every single console since the original GBA I believe, or at least for Ashley since they acknowledged her popularity in the past...

I'm pretty sure even Pikmin received a lot more merchandise and whatnot over the years...

im pretty sure Young link is meant to rep Majora's mask.

 

[Curious Villager]

I do want to mention, it feels like stock in the WW supporting cast has went up a substantial amount after Get It Together. At the very least they've been having the crew share a lot of screentime together, building them up more as this close knit dysfunctional family. I think they've been more prominent in the general marketing of the Switch titles and again, especially in GIT being able to play as all of them each with a fun little quirk was one of the selling points.

They could definitely do more, I think they're still just a little bit underneath the usual field of vision / prominence for serious Smash candidates (in my own subjective metric at least, and barring Ashley) but I feel like I've been seeing them more lately, slowly but surely they're a bit more confident in them.

It does feel like their trying to build up the characters a bit more than they did in the past.
Even the games themselves kind of feel like their teasing some kind of episodic tv show without fully committing to it (mainly due to the nature of them being games so there is only so much they can do but yeah...)

Like you said, with them all acting more and more like a close knit dysfunctional family instead of each characters living in their own bubbles for the most part.
It would be nice to see IS grow more confident in the cast and flesh them out further at some point in the future, be it in a game or other media like a tv show or manga series or something.