Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Perkilator]

im pretty sure Young link is meant to rep Majora's mask.

Then where’s Fierce Deity Final Smash?

 

[Sucumbio]

Come to think of it, there is one example of a feat so massive we couldn't do it again even as technology improved. Going to the moon. It just wasn't viable for many reasons least of all economic viability. True, we're planning on doing it again, and one day we surely will, but if Ultimate is as the moon landing than the next Smash would be akin to the space shuttle.

 

[fogbadge]

im pretty sure Young link is meant to rep Majora's mask.

except nearly everything he has is based on the oot designs

 

[Louie G.]

I'm not gonna lie, and I realize saying this will only extend the conversation further, but I'm already tired of the arguments about roster size. At least when we talk about characters, or movesets and game mechanics, that's fun and spurring our creativity. These roster size conversations tend to go back and forth with pretentiousness about how this or that side makes more logical sense. May I remind everyone we are speculating about a game that does not exist, that doesn't really matter right now. Certainly not enough for people to get so heated about it.

Funny enough, it has historically been character choices that provoke frustrating tribalism within the community but now it's the drastically different perspectives on how the roster may look and evolve. Personally no, I don't think a 100 character roster is very likely at all. I'm gonna take Sakurai's word for now, because it's the only thing we have to work off of, and believe that we'll have to downsize a bit with some enhanced single player modes and new features to compensate. But I dunno, if you want to make a 40 character "reboot" roster or a 100 character "deluxe" one I'm not gonna dispute you so much on the size unless you are distinctly asking me if I think it's plausible. Right now it's my least favorite topic.

I think everyone's just made up their minds about what they want to believe for now and it doesn't seem like the discussion ever goes anywhere or gets through to someone who feels that staunchly about it already. If you believe we're getting an even bigger Smash game than Ultimate I don't think there's much I can personally say to convince you otherwise.

 

[Garteam]

I'm not gonna lie, and I realize saying this will only extend the conversation further, but I'm already tired of the arguments about roster size. At least when we talk about characters, or movesets and game mechanics, that's fun and spurring our creativity. These roster size conversations tend to go back and forth with pretentiousness about how this or that side makes more logical sense. May I remind everyone we are speculating about a game that does not exist, that doesn't really matter right now. Certainly not enough for people to get so heated about it.

Funny enough, it has historically been character choices that provoke frustrating tribalism within the community but now it's the drastically different perspectives on how the roster may look and evolve. Personally no, I don't think a 100 character roster is very likely at all. I'm gonna take Sakurai's word for now, because it's the only thing we have to work off of, and believe that we'll have to downsize a bit with some enhanced single player modes and new features to compensate. But I dunno, if you want to make a 40 character "reboot" roster or a 100 character "deluxe" one I'm not gonna dispute you so much on the size unless you are distinctly asking me if I think it's plausible. Right now it's my least favorite topic.

I think everyone's just made up their minds about what they want to believe for now and it doesn't seem like the discussion ever goes anywhere or gets through to someone who feels that staunchly about it already. If you believe we're getting an even bigger Smash game than Ultimate I don't think there's much I can personally say to convince you otherwise.

Obviously, this is just your opinion, but I do think I think discussions about the size of the roster are relevant in so far as which characters are in will inevitably be tied to the size of the roster and which vets return. We know Sakurai doesn't seem to go into a project intending to cut characters (with a handful of exceptions, like Pichu and Young Link in Brawl) and characters often don't return because the team ran out of dev time and other veterans simply took priority. We also know from Ultimate's base game that bringing back too many vets can limit the number of newcomers, so roster size also impacts the new faces we may see. There's also the issue that some characters don't make as much sense when certain vets are present. For example, supporters of Waluigi and Bandana Dee will often argue for their inclusion because they're the two largest and most requested characters in their respective franchises not currently playable in Smash. That goes out the window when supporting Mario and Kirby characters aren't all present.

It's definitely annoying when people are wed to a certain vision of what the roster could be, but the conversation is still pretty open by Smash speculation standards. So far, no one saying that certain characters aren't worth discussing at all because it doesn't conform with their vision of the roster. That's a hell of a lot better than the Fighter's Pass #2 era, where certain portions of the fanbase refused to humour anyone that wasn't Crash, Master Chief, Doom Slayer, Dante, or Sora. We're still pretty far from doing stuff like seriously discussing Vergil because the Dante ground had been tread countless times and anyone who wasn't discussed wasn't "hype" enough to entertain.

 

[Sucumbio]

If you watch the start screen fmv in Ultimate but imagine the characters are the dev team and Galeem is Nintendo... It makes sense in a whole other way.

 

[Louie G.]

Obviously, this is just your opinion, but I do think I think discussions about the size of the roster are relevant in so far as which characters are in will inevitably be tied to the size of the roster and which vets return. We know Sakurai doesn't seem to go into a project intending to cut characters (with a handful of exceptions, like Pichu and Young Link in Brawl) and characters often don't return because the team ran out of dev time and other veterans simply took priority. We also know from Ultimate's base game that bringing back too many vets can limit the number of newcomers, so roster size also impacts the new faces we may see. There's also the issue that some characters don't make as much sense when certain vets are present. For example, supporters of Waluigi and Bandana Dee will often argue for their inclusion because they're the two largest and most requested characters in their respective franchises not currently playable in Smash. That goes out the window when supporting Mario and Kirby characters aren't all present.

For sure, and I absolutely agree with this. It's a very relevant, hot button issue to talk about and I understand why it's a sticking point for so many people. But I also just don't personally feel inclined to participate in those discussions for very long because they're often circular - that is, when it's JUST about the size of the roster and not how it influences character choices. I have my own opinion of how big the next roster may be (presumably somewhere in the 60s) and that's reflected in my own expectations and eventual prediction roster.

Bandana Dee is actually a good example because as much sense as he makes I find it kinda tough to justify adding him given some other cuts that would need to be made and the way that scales up against other series in a condensed roster. I feel like Waluigi might end up justifying himself on that sheer loud demand from last game and be the big crowd pleaser, but that's neither here nor there.

So I hope it doesn't come off like I don't think it's important to talk about, just that we see a lot of people speaking as kind of an authority on it and insulting the intelligence of other users about something that we have very very little basis to talk about yet. We've never had to follow up a game like Ultimate before and the results are going to be unique compared to other games in the series, however that may be. And a lot of these discussions end up pertaining less to the way it influences certain characters and moreso just this imaginary number, which is kinda just lame and fruitless. I liked the discussion we had about the trouble with maintaining the current third party characters in a condensed roster and it was pretty engaging. I don't think dropping in to say they're annoyed that people want to be conservative with their roster is very productive for anyone, for example. I may disagree with some stances on the issue but I feel like we're at an interesting point in speculation where it's anyone's guess.

It's definitely annoying when people are wed to a certain vision of what the roster could be, but the conversation is still pretty open by Smash speculation standards. So far, no one saying that certain characters aren't worth discussing at all because it doesn't conform with their vision of the roster.

And yeah, I'm enjoying this while it lasts LOL. I'm sure the tides will change once they formally announce a new game and people start participating who haven't bothered yet. I'm glad that, at least for now, a positive effect of this uncertainty of the future means people are more accepting of things they may not have been before so I can only hope everyone has been humbled by now.

 

[Sucumbio]

I hate that some ppl on X and streams have made fun of speculation over the next Smash. Like why cause we anticipate the next game and wanna talk about it? But whatever, so yeah it's fine to talk about everything bc being thought police isn't new, it's argument from authority and a bully's tool and is no more valid now than since the first insult slung from human lips.

 

[fogbadge]

the first insult slung from human lips.

happened in scotland

 

[Diddy Kong]

Every single time there's a feeling a new Smash game is getting closer, people start talking about a "reboot", "massive cuts", "back to origin" type of conversations like it's logical and needed lol, but it NEVER happens. Any new Smash is ALWAYS going to be bigger than the previous one for one simple reason: that's its marketing appeal. Smash Ultimate is the best selling fighting game of all time for one simple reason: it's huge, its roster is insanely huge.

I've seen video "essays" (damn how is it that any Smash related video essay ends up being horrible lol) claiming there's no way next Smash is as big as Ultimate without any reason whatsoever. One of them said that we're getting back to a 50 character roster, which is big don't get me wrong, and then proceeded to cut Meta Knight, a perfectly implemented veteran, in favor of Bandana Dee "for reasons" lmao. Mega Man getting cut but Ryu still getting in, that kinda ****. It's so stupid it becomes annoying.

Yeah, we might get some cuts. And to be honest, there are a lot of characters who really do not deserve to come back: Dr. Mario, one of the Links, all the Fire Emblem clones, a couple of Pokémons, Mii Brawler really is enough so Gunner and Swordfighter can go, yep, it might happen. Basically all the clones or very similar concept characters. Maybe a few more for licensing / technical reasons (looking at Disney / Microsoft, or dual characters like the Climbers, Olimar or even Rosalina). 15 to 20 cuts out of the 89 now available is comprehensible, but it's not like we're not getting new incredible reps in return.

Of one thing I'm absolutely certain: Smash 6 is going to break the 100 character roster size one way or the other, through DLC, more clones, and completely new and fresh characters. There's no coming back, they can easily use Ultimate as a base for developing factors and do it. They've proven time and time again they can, and that they want to.

People claiming a complete rebuild of its gameplay are even more insane. Yes, we have a game which sold 30+ million copies in a genre which is usually considered niche. Let's completely change the next one! It makes so much sense! Same stupid talk happened before Ultimate released, see where it landed lmao. Probably the same "Ridley's too big", "Snake is never coming back", "Banjo and Sora are impossible" crowd. I don't know why they annoy me so much lol.

I could see a 100 character roster in Smash. Easily with a Ultimate DX edition. I can even picture easily a "Everyone Is Here AGAIN?!" DLC campaign. Would probably sell like hotcakes, it's easy marketing too. And there are loads of potential clones, semi clones and Echoes to think of with a roster coming from Ultimate. 100 doesn't even sound all that crazy to me honestly.

 

[Gengar84]

I could see a 100 character roster in Smash. Easily with a Ultimate DX edition. I can even picture easily a "Everyone Is Here AGAIN?!" DLC campaign. Would probably sell like hotcakes, it's easy marketing too. And there are loads of potential clones, semi clones and Echoes to think of with a roster coming from Ultimate. 100 doesn't even sound all that crazy to me honestly.

All I really need for the base game for the next Smash is one substantial new co-op and/or single player mode and one Fighter Pass’s worth of new characters and stages. From there, they can just start up the DLC again and I’m happy. Everything else can just be ported over from Ultimate besides a few changes for some characters like Ganondorf.

 

[CommanderZaktan]

All I really need for the base game for the next Smash is one substantial new co-op and/or single player mode and one Fighter Pass’s worth of new characters and stages. From there, they can just start up the DLC again and I’m happy. Everything else can just be ported over from Ultimate besides a few changes for some characters like Ganondorf.

I got one idea for a new mode. Assist Smash. Certain assists can be playable in either fighting themselves or team up with normal fighters. There 3 qualify features that assists to be playable. Moving around and teleporting from point A to point B, attack, and get damaged and KO. The down side is that they're not strong as they are normally summoned outside of this mode.

Here's a list of assist trophies that are qualified to be playable in this mode.

Spoiler

Krystal
Bomberman
Akira
Alucard
Grey Fox
Chef Kawasaki
Rathalos
Takamaru
Waluigi
Black Knight
Rodin
Knuckles
Sukapon
Spring Man
Ghirahim
Knuckle Joe
Starfy
Dillon

 

[JOJONumber691]

While I don't see it happening officially, you're only 11 Characters away from 100 so it's feasible. As a matter of fact, I'm going to do it now:

1. Oatchi
2. Bandanna Waddle Dee
3. Mio
4. Pig Ganon
5. Minerva
6. Primarina
7. Madeline
8. Phoenix Wright
9. Black Mage
10. Eggman
11. Doomguy

 

[Perkilator]

I could see a 100 character roster in Smash. Easily with a Ultimate DX edition. I can even picture easily a "Everyone Is Here AGAIN?!" DLC campaign. Would probably sell like hotcakes, it's easy marketing too. And there are loads of potential clones, semi clones and Echoes to think of with a roster coming from Ultimate. 100 doesn't even sound all that crazy to me honestly.

My idea for Ultimate DX basically boils down to:

• 11 new fighters (8 unique, 3 Echoes)
• Smash Run
• World of Light, Classic Mode and Spirit Battles are reworked with consideration to characters who debuted in Smash after Ultimate first released in December 2018
• Mode Builder where you can create either Target Test / Board the Platforms or your own Classic Mode route
• Assist Trophies for the franchises that debuted as DLC
• New Poké Ball summons based Gens VIII and IX

Spoiler: Stages added back

* denotes a stage unavailable when you select Stage Morph

• Skins for Battlefield, Big Battlefield and Final Destination based on 64, Melee, Brawl, 3DS and Wii U
• Planet Zebes
• Sector Z
• Icicle Mountain*
• Mute City
• Mushroom Kingdom (Melee)
• Poké Floats
• Rumble Falls*
• PictoChat
• Rainbow Road
• Pac-Maze
• Jungle Hijinxs*
• Pyrosphere* (Ridley is replaced by Mecha-Ridley)
• Woolly World
• Orbital Gate Assault*

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is still a pretty good spread compared to past games, I'd probably just change Sheik back to her sole canon Ocarina of Time look, Ganondorf to his Twilight Princess Tears of the Kingdom look, and if Young Link where to come back, give him his Majora's Mask gear and you're pretty much golden.

Fixed.

im pretty sure Young link is meant to rep Majora's mask.

I mean...that's not really a different Link/era than OoT.

 

[DarthEnderX]

My idea for Ultimate DX basically boils down to:

Spoiler: 18 more unique Fighters(bringing us to Fighter #100)

1. Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
2. Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
3. Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
4. Kunio/Riki [River City]
5. SV-001 Metal Slug [Metal Slug]
6. Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
7. Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
8. Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
9. Kazuma Kiryu [Yakuza]
10. Nakoruru [Samurai Shodown]
11. Dante [Devil May Cry]
12. Phoenix Wright [Ace Attorney]
13. Rash/Zitz [Battletoads]
14. Bomberman [Bomberman]
15. Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
16. Zero [Mega Man X]
17. Alucard [Castlevania]
18. Raiden [Metal Gear]

Spoiler: Echo Fighters

10e. Ninten [Ness]
11e. Black Shadow [Captain Falcon]
16e. Impa [Sheik]
27e. Galacta Knight [Meta Knight]
31e. Liquid Snake [Snake]
32e. Black Knight [Ike]
35e. Charizard [Pokemon Trainer]
36e. Dixie Kong [Diddy Kong]
38e. Shadow [Sonic]
46e. Bass [Megaman]
61e. Zack [Cloud]
63e. Jeanne [Bayonetta]
64e. Octolings [Inklings]
82e. Roxas [Kingdom Hearts]

Spoiler: Bosses

Mother Brain [Metroid]
Andross(N64 version) [Star Fox]
Arceus [Pokemon]
Porky [Earthbound]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Liquid Snake piloting Metal Gear REX [Metal Gear]
Eggman piloting Death Egg Robot [Sonic the Hedgehog]
Dr. Wily piloting Wily Machine [Mega Man]
Safer∙Sephiroth [Final Fantasy]

Spoiler: Mii Costumes

Swordfighter
Crono [Chrono Trigger] (if not getting in as Fighter)
Frog [Chrono Trigger]
Randi [Secret of Mana]
Majima [Yakuza]
Vergil [Devil May Cry]
Kuros [Wizards & Warriors]
The Knight [Hollow Knight]

Brawler
King Hippo [Punch-Out]
Billy Lee/Jimmy Lee [Double Dragon]
Viewtiful Joe [Viewtiful Joe]
Robo [Chrono Trigger]

Gunner
Game Master [Captain N]
Master Chief [Halo]
Quote [Cave Story]
Jason [Blaster Master]

Mage
Aerith [Final Fantasy] (converted from Swordfighter)
Ashley [WarioWare] (converted from Swordfighter)
Lip [Panel de Pon] (converted from Swordfighter)
Veronica [Dragon Quest] (converted from Swordfighter)
Vince [Art Academy] (converted from Swordfighter)
Viridi [Kid Icarus] (converted from Swordfighter)
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Kamek [Super Mario Bros.]
FF Black Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
FF White Mage [Mario Sports Mix]
Reimu [Touhou]
Magus [Chrono Trigger]

Ninja
Altaïr [Assassin’s Creed] (converted from Swordfighter)
Goemon [Mystical Ninja] (converted from Swordfighter)
Nakoruru [Samurai Shodown] (converted from Swordfighter)
Ninjara [ARMS] (converted from Brawler)
FF Ninja [Mario Sports Mix]
Joe Musashi [Shinobi]
Rikimaru [Tenchu]
Guy [Final Fight]
Ibuki [Street Fighter]
Taki [SoulCalibur]
Kasumi [Dead or Alive]
Corvo Attano [Dishonored]

Spoiler: Assist Trophies

King Hippo [Punch-Out]
Eggplant Wizard [Kid Icarus]
Chocobo [Final Fantasy]
Slimes/King Slime[Dragon Quest]
Majima [Yakuza]
Rygar [Rygar]
Abobo [Double Dragon]
Vic Viper [Gradius]
Mike Jones [Star Tropics]
Sophia 3rd [Blaster Master]
Bernard [Maniac Mansion]

Spoiler: Character Changes

-Give Ganondorf a completely unique moveset based on Tears of the Kingdom Ganondorf.
-Make Black Shadow the Echo of Captain Falcon and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.
-Give Chrom a new unique moveset. Make Lucina his Echo. Make Roy Marth's Echo.
-Give Falco the Sniper Rifle and Wolf the Machine Gun from StarFox Assault.
-Replace Mario's FLUDD with Cappy.
-Give Young Link and Toon Link different subweapons so they aren't just using the same Bow/Bomb/Boomerang combo as Adult Link.
-Make each of Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon a separate Fighter, give every Pokemon except Mewtwo a trainer.
-Make Mythra into Pyra’s Echo.
-Expand the definition of Echo to include Dr. Mario and Pichu.

Spoiler: Gameplay Features

-Rollback netcode.
-Make Hazardless versions of stages selectable from stage select the same way Omega and Battlefield versions are.
-Remember my last color selection for each character. Smash 3DS did this. No idea why Wii U and Ultimate don't.
-Actually balance FS Meter FSes so that people will actually use them in competitive play.
-Kirby style Boss Rush mode.
-Bring back the Smash Run map as a Battle Royal. (64 players teleport in. Players run around killing creeps and collecting upgrades. Map shrinks over time. Last 4 surviving players have a Smash match.)
-Bring back any missing Stages and Assist Trophies that didn't already return.

 

[dream1ng]

General question: if/when we get confirmation that the next system has bc (it better), would that change your opinion on the likelihood of a deluxe edition?

 

[RileyXY1]

General question: if/when we get confirmation that the next system has bc (it better), would that change your opinion on the likelihood of a deluxe edition?

To me, yes, as there would be no reason to do one due to the large install base of the Switch.

 

[RodNutTakin]

General question: if/when we get confirmation that the next system has bc (it better), would that change your opinion on the likelihood of a deluxe edition?

Crossgen game update that is pretty much a "true 2.0 update" for the game (plus new Fighter's Passes).
Meanwhile HAL makes an exclusive Power Stone-like spinoff as a new side title.

 

[Ivander]

While I don't see it happening officially, you're only 11 Characters away from 100 so it's feasible. As a matter of fact, I'm going to do it now:

1. Oatchi
2. Bandanna Waddle Dee
3. Mio
4. Pig Ganon
5. Minerva
6. Primarina
7. Madeline
8. Phoenix Wright
9. Black Mage
10. Eggman
11. Doomguy

Well...

1. Waluigi (Mario)
2. Raven Beak (Metroid)
3. Bandana Waddle Dee (Kirby)
4. Meowscarada (Pokemon)
5. Lyndis (Fire Emblem)
6. Noah &/Or Mio (Xenoblade)
7. Isaac (Golden Sun)
8. Ring Fit Trainer (Ring Fit Adventure)
9. Dr. Eggman (Sonic the Hedgehog)
10. Chun-Li (Street Fighter)
11. Bomberman

 

[Louie G.]

General question: if/when we get confirmation that the next system has bc (it better), would that change your opinion on the likelihood of a deluxe edition?

To be honest, at that point they're better off just doing additional DLC / a third Fighter Pass if they absolutely need to keep Smash Ultimate alive. I don't think a Deluxe version is going to happen regardless of what the next console looks like because of a multitude of copyright issues and companies I do not see cooperating in letting their characters be sold as part of a base title (Disney). So if you're running into those issues, and the game is already playing on that console, just keep building on the one everyone already has.

Correct me if I'm wrong also but there are PS4 -> PS5 games with free to download graphical upgrades right? If there's worry about Smash Ultimate not feeling up to snuff with the next gen (I doubt this will be the case tbh, it still looks fine) then they may be able to work something like this out. But yeah I think any of that is already unlikely but far more practical than reselling Ultimate and going through the whole third party process all over again.

 

[Sucumbio]

While I don't see it happening officially, you're only 11 Characters away from 100 so it's feasible. As a matter of fact, I'm going to do it now:

Me too! (In no particular order)

1. Toad
2. Bandana Waddle Dee
3. Jill Valentine
4. Raven Beak
5. Geno
6. Black Knight
7. Eggman
8. Master Chief
9. Alucard
10. Ryu Hayabusa
11. Scorpion

 

[Perkilator]

My idea for Ultimate DX basically boils down to:

• 11 new fighters (8 unique, 3 Echoes)
• Smash Run
• World of Light, Classic Mode and Spirit Battles are reworked with consideration to characters who debuted in Smash after Ultimate first released in December 2018
• Mode Builder where you can create either Target Test / Board the Platforms or your own Classic Mode route
• Assist Trophies for the franchises that debuted as DLC
• New Poké Ball summons based Gens VIII and IX

Spoiler: Stages added back

* denotes a stage unavailable when you select Stage Morph

• Skins for Battlefield, Big Battlefield and Final Destination based on 64, Melee, Brawl, 3DS and Wii U
• Planet Zebes
• Sector Z
• Icicle Mountain*
• Mute City
• Mushroom Kingdom (Melee)
• Poké Floats
• Rumble Falls*
• PictoChat
• Rainbow Road
• Pac-Maze
• Jungle Hijinxs*
• Pyrosphere* (Ridley is replaced by Mecha-Ridley)
• Woolly World
• Orbital Gate Assault*

As for my 11 fighters:

• 83. Waluigi
• 84. Raven Beak
• 85. Bandana Waddle Dee
• 86-87. Noah & Mio
• 88. Ring Fit Trainee
• 89. Chun-Li
• 90. Dr. Eggman
• 36ε. Dixie Kong
• 40ε. Alph
• 76ε. Ninjara

 

[HyperSomari64]

While I don't see it happening officially, you're only 11 Characters away from 100 so it's feasible. As a matter of fact, I'm going to do it now:

1. Oatchi
2. Bandanna Waddle Dee
3. Mio
4. Pig Ganon
5. Minerva
6. Primarina
7. Madeline
8. Phoenix Wright
9. Black Mage
10. Eggman
11. Doomguy

1. Mirage!Chrom + Itsuki
2. Astral Chain police officer
3. Mystery Dungeon!Grovyle + Celebi
4. Tails
5. Terra Branford
6. Ghost Gang
7. Manny Calavera
8. Dixie Kong
9. Reiji + Xiaomu
10. Iori Yagami
11. Yugo from Bloody Roar
BONUS: Hyperdimension Neptunia character. (Every character can work fine in Smash)

 

[Arcanir]

I think Ashley is a dark horse in terms of first party candidates. Wario Ware is going through a Renaissance ever since Wario Ware Gold came out. It's had three new games in the last five years and each of them are selling decently. Ashley is the de facto pick for a new Wario character and we know she's a popular character.

What do you guys think about Ashley? Would she be a good choice? How would she work? Do you think her fanbase will recover?

I feel as soon as the next Smash is announced her fanbase will reignite. She's always been a decently popular character in discussion, even as far back as Brawl IIRC, and I don't see that changing as nothing in the past few years has shifted focus away from her in Warioware to my knowledge. If anything, the aforementioned increased focus on the WW team as a dysfunctional family may actually benefit her as it allows the cast to stick more with people both in and out of the franchise as the series continues to grow.

 

[fogbadge]

well if we're playing this game again i'll join in

1. Toad
2. Toadette
3. Tails
4. Chibi-Robo
5. Bandana Dee
6. Rex
7. Noah
8. Professor Layton
9. Phoenix Wright
10. Nate Adams
11. Impa

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Kazuma Kiryu (Yakuza)
Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney)
Cybuster (Super Robot Wars)
Noah (Xenoblade)
Screamtail (Pokemon)
Agumon (Digimon)
Lloyd (Tales of)
Shadow (Sonic the hedgehog)
Akira (Astral Chain)
Isaac (Golden Sun)
Andy (Advance Wars)

It kinda feels like Bandai Namco is underrepresented compared tosome of the other third parties so i would be happy with any of the three Bandai Namco series i listed getting into smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

If they actually go the Deluxe route capping the newcomers at the 100 mark is too little imo. I think they should go all in like with Brawl/4 at around 15 unique newcomers. So not too much more really. Throw in a handful of echoes on top though since we always get a few clones.

 

[dezeray112]

I'll play along as well:

1. Geno (Super Mario RPG)
2. Sol Badguy (Guilty Gear)
3. Chun-Li (Street Fighter)
4. Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)
5. Noah & Mio (Xenoblade Chronicles 3)
6. Dr. Eggman (Sonic)
7. Waluigi (Super Mario)
8. Alear (Fire Emblem: Fates)
9. Lloyd Irving (Tales of Symphonia)
10. Professor Layton (Layton)
11. Gengar (Pokemon)

 

[dream1ng]

Speaking on Ashley reminds me how little attention first-parties get in speculation these days, despite them probably comprising at the very least half of the next game's newcomers. And at most, most.

It just seems there's a big old gap in who we might get when you move Waluigi, the three promo series, probably either or both of Ring Fit and AC, and plausible but imo not definite additions like BWD (who has Sakurai stuff going on) and Octoling or some Splatoon representation.

And I gotta be honest. That, to me, is a very Smash-4-esque first-party lineup, where the characters are mostly recency based and... not bad, but maybe a little underwhelming. Kinda perfunctory. Like, Waluigi and BWD are popular, but the rest are there more because they're expected, either because the series precedent indicates it, or because the series seems due for something/more.

So I would hope whatever is left can be filled with fanbase picks. Especially because I think Waluigi will be an Inkling situation in that he could get in due to fanbase popularity but instead will get in just due to prominence and general popularity. BWD could as well, but the Sakurai layer I think muddies that and makes demand the likelier route. If he does indeed even get in.

I would also hope one of those remaining spots can go to a goddam (original) Zelda character. So with the idk, 3 or 4 remaining spots, I think one might go to a series that has a comeback before the next Smash (probably DK, and probably Dixie), and then maybe the last two/three can be fanbase-based.

But they won't be because one will probably go to a surprise pick. So... maybe one or two can be from demand. In that case, it would probably go to Isaac. I think he has the odds stacked against him, not being at all current... but maybe they can spare one spot for a character like him. I doubt we'd get more than that. Then I guess the other can loop around and go back to Ashley, who is popular, but current.

And because Ashley is Ashley I'm just gonna assume she's quite popular in Japan as well, which helps.

So here's the first party lineup, in that case:

1. Waluigi
2. Pokemon character
3. Fire Emblem character
4. Xenoblade character
5. Ring Fit Trainee
6. Akira Howard
7. BWD
8. Octoling/Splatoon character
9. Zelda character
10. Dixie
11. surprise pick
12. Isaac
13. Ashley

That's honestly not a bad selection. Though the main problem, and this seems a little inevitable no matter who you pick, is that these characters overall are clearly not at the same calibre as previous first-party groups, just because there's a finite number of big names in Nintendo.

I don't think a Deluxe version is going to happen regardless of what the next console looks like because of a multitude of copyright issues and companies I do not see cooperating in letting their characters be sold as part of a base title (Disney).

I also think issues with the third-parties being in base rather than DLC are one reason a port isn't as likely as people think, but I've not really raised it because I haven't felt "I don't think Square/Disney/possibly others will be easily amenable to that" was defensible enough, even though I think it's the truth.

I think Square in particular is resistant to that kind of thing without reaching major compromises. Maybe Disney too, idk.

 

[RileyXY1]

I also think issues with the third-parties being in base rather than DLC are one reason a port isn't as likely as people think, but I've not really raised it because I haven't felt "I don't think Square/Disney/possibly others will be easily amenable to that" was defensible enough, even though I think it's the truth.

I think Square in particular is resistant to that kind of thing without reaching major compromises. Maybe Disney too, idk.

It's also a bad move. The reason why the Wii U ports worked for Switch was because the Wii U was a flop and for many people this was their first experience with these games. This is not the case with the Switch. And I don't think people would want to buy a game that they could potentially play on their system already through backwards compatibility.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Speaking on Ashley reminds me how little attention first-parties get in speculation these days, despite them probably comprising at the very least half of the next game's newcomers. And at most, most.

I just cant think of anyone at this point, all the big name Nintendo all stars have been in the series since Brawl so at this point the Nintendo characters we do get unless their from a new game thats popular like Mythra and Byleth are gonna feel very underwhelming to me.

Part of that might also be that as ive gotten older ive been dabbling into third party franchises more often which lead me to loving Yakuza, SRW and Persona.

It's also a bad move. The reason why the Wii U ports worked for Switch was because the Wii U was a flop and for many people this was their first experience with these games. This is not the case with the Switch. And I don't think people would want to buy a game that they could potentially play on their system already through backwards compatibility.

Something about your profile picture elicits some kind of smug aura to me.

 

[dream1ng]

It's also a bad move. The reason why the Wii U ports worked for Switch was because the Wii U was a flop and for many people this was their first experience with these games. This is not the case with the Switch. And I don't think people would want to buy a game that they could potentially play on their system already through backwards compatibility.

It's not a bad move as much as one that may just be seen as superfluous. Any Smash Bros game will likely sell well, even a port. Even a port on a system with bc. It's just one that may be more complicated to deliver than people realize and will probably be unnecessary if the next new Smash is intended to arrive any sooner than the tail end of the system.

Something about your profile picture elicits some kind of smug aura to me.

 

[SPEN18]

I can understand it being unexciting to just talk about the size of the roster, but the head count is important in establishing context for arguments about either cuts or newcomers. I see a lot of people just throwing generalities around about who is likely to stay or go or become a newcomer without actually situating those expectations relative to the probable overall character count. That and both the raw size of Ult's roster compared to 4's and the public statements of Sakurai on the matter make it unsurprising that the number of fighters we'll see next game would be a common topic of discussion.

When I look at the current first party roster, I would say there are a little over 40 characters where I would personally be sorely disappointed if they were gone, and maybe a little under 40 which are, at least for me, pretty much non-starters when it comes to discussing potential cuts. And of course this is coming from someone who is generally much more ok with cuts than most.

If we're looking at a ~60-character roster and we bring back almost all third parties while making room for around 12-15 newcomers, then that could leave only a little over 30 spots for first party vets. At that point you're actually starting to cut closer to the core of the roster than pretty much anyone is comfortable with. At that point it really does begin to feel like we're taking too big of steps in the backwards direction. So when push comes to shove, there's pretty much no way around losing at least a handful of third parties, as there's only so much they're willing to sacrifice out of their own characters and games to promote through Smash, and I don't think dramatically reducing the newcomer count is going to be viable two times in a row.

And remember that it's never as simple as Nintendo being a rich enough company to afford whatever budget they want for licensing costs and the like, or as simple as Nintendo not having much reason to actively want characters removed. It's a matter of what's worth it and profitable for them.

In summary, I think a likely, reasonable, and realistic breakdown is ~40 first party vets, about half the third party vets, and around a dozen newcomers (1-2 of which could be third party) to get us to around 60 characters total. A few of the most popular vets who just missed the cut will likely come back as DLC. This was all excluding Echoes btw.
If that feels like too many third party cuts, note that this breakdown would actually make for an even higher percentage of the roster that is third party than base Ult, and much higher than base 4 or Brawl. Which means this outlook is potentially even being optimistic on third parties.
Anyway I think a game with this roster composition would actually do quite well, and with ample buffs to the singleplayer and online content along with any potential updates to mechanics or movesets, it could very easily top Ult even with the cuts and smaller roster, at least in my opinion.

 

[RodNutTakin]

Again, what I would personally do would be to give Ultimate a substantial crossgen content update after the next console comes out, alongside a special physical rerelease that has the updates and the first 2 Passes preinstalled. It's pretty much a loophole solution to bypass the problems with a normal Deluxe version.
I am probably not realizing some flaws here with this.

 

[fogbadge]

It is a shame that we don’t talk about first parties as much. But I guess people just aren’t that interested. Shame really but what can you do besides bring up chibi-robo all the time

 

[Louie G.]

It is a shame that we don’t talk about first parties as much. But I guess people just aren’t that interested. Shame really but what can you do besides bring up chibi-robo all the time

We've been talking first parties quite a lot, we were just talking about Zelda and today we were talking about Wario. Before that I brought up the question of distinctly which first party series grew during the Switch era with room to expand in the next game. I feel like first parties have actually kinda been the dominant conversation point here for a little bit.

Sorry to be a smartass, I just think that's pretty neat and wanted to give credit where it's due since you would probably expect the opposite. Personally I do find talking about first parties much more engaging right now, I already kinda know which third parties I expect / am rooting to join in the future and first parties are a lot more flexible.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Okay guy, let's be real. Will Yoshi ever get another character?

Or will it be the green dino forever?

 

[smashkirby]

Something pretty interesting that was brought to my attention recently, working off a conversation I started a week or so ago. I mostly brought up that I considered Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Pikmin to be some of the biggest winners of the last generation and worth considering as some of their big dogs, especially when considering what first party content may be added in a future Smash incarnation. But Nintendo made a pretty interesting addition to their series portals on their Japanese site recently.

Lo and behold, Wario gets to sit among Nintendo's heaviest hitters. Granted this could definitely be more of a promotional move for the release of WarioWare Move It, but I thought it was neat to see him there. Also take notice, Wario Land truthers, that the series is simply labeled "Wario". Not reading too much into it right now but I'd love to see them start pushing Wario even more in the future.

I guess to tie it into Smash, how do you guys think Wario can get expanded on next time around? I'll ignore the obvious Wario Land part in favor of mentioning that not even WarioWARE got much new content in Smash Ultimate - in fact it outright lost content since Kat & Ana did not return as an Assist Trophy. Brawl's collection of Ware remixes are some of my favorite in the entire series, provide such a fun wacky flair to the game and it makes me upset that we haven't seen too much more since then. I think ignoring Body Rock from WarioWare DIY was a heinous crime.

I'm not sure if I'd necessarily advocate for more characters - I wouldn't turn them down whatsoever, but I think we're okay as is. Giving major players like Mona or Jimmy T just a bit more presence in the game some way or another would be appreciated though. Maybe as additional ATs or stage cameos.

Ngl, as someone who has Mona as their #1 request for the next Wario character, I'm in a bit of a bind here. Like, it could just be me, but it felt like Mona gained a lot more prominence as a character ever since Gold (to the point that Get It Together made more of a show of featuring her as Wario's #2 in the context of WarioWare), but despite that I'm a bit worried that it won't mean much for my girl in the long run...

It is a shame that we don’t talk about first parties as much. But I guess people just aren’t that interested. Shame really but what can you do besides bring up chibi-robo all the time

We've been talking first parties quite a lot, we were just talking about Zelda and today we were talking about Wario. Before that I brought up the question of distinctly which first party series grew during the Switch era with room to expand in the next game. I feel like first parties have actually kinda been the dominant conversation point here for a little bit.

Sorry to be a smartass, I just think that's pretty neat and wanted to give credit where it's due since you would probably expect the opposite. Personally I do find talking about first parties much more engaging right now, I already kinda know which third parties I expect / am rooting to join in the future and first parties are a lot more flexible.

While it IS nice to see some first-party discussion here, it's a bit of a bummer to see that, in general, first-parties are pretty overall ignored ever since Snake was announced for Brawl. Don't get me wrong, even I'VE got third-parties I'd like to see in Smash, but still.

 

[Ivander]

I think part of the problem is, aside from 3rd Party hype and "Celebration of Gaming" shenanigans, whenever First Parties are brought up, the things most people often bring up are mainly:

• The really popular characters, like Waluigi, Bandana Dee, Ashley and Isaac.
• Characters tied to a notably popular game and is decently popular regarding their franchise's fanbase, like Raven Beak, Impa, the BotW Champions, Akira Howard, etc.
• The "Obvious Marketing pick", like Alear, Noah and Mio, Ring Fit Trainer and the new Generation of Pokemon.
• And sometimes the surprise pick, which if often regulated to Retro picks like Takamaru, Balloon Fighter, Mach Rider, etc.

Which for the most part, isn't a bad selection of characters, but because we tend to look at what we commonly see, the discussions about them don't tend to change for the most part. And the only times when it really changes is when something new is introduced, which often get sorted into the 2nd or 3rd categories.
A new Advance Wars game? Add in Andy, Sami, etc into the speculation mix. Metroid Dread releases and becomes quite popular? Raven Beak joins into the mix. New game for a re-occuring franchise or a new title that does well and is decently popular? Add in the recently shown characters or notably popular new characters into the mix, then slowly discard them when they miss their chance. It's as simple and vicious a cycle that continuously flows.
Cause really, the only way we'll really get serious about talking about franchises that are not talked about and marketed regularly, like Sin & Punishment, Custom Robo, Starfy, even something like Tomato Adventure or Panel de Pon, is when Sakurai adds in a playable character from one of those games or series. Like the absolute moment that Sakurai adds in a character from one of those games just because he wanted to and got the okay, only then will every 1st party game/franchise/etc be taken quite seriously during speculation.