Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Sucumbio]

Or the leaf. Toon Link's leaf could sweep opponents away and could even be incorporated into his recovery.

 

[Oracle Link]

Or the leaf. Toon Link's leaf could sweep opponents away and could even be incorporated into his recovery.

I guess you could make the leaf his throws or a glide similar to peach!
The neutral and forward special slots are just too important for a one off item!

 

[JOJONumber691]

Up Air could be fun.

 

[fogbadge]

Random thought: would you say it’s a fair criticism that sakurai over thinks smash?

 

[Louie G.]

Random thought: would you say it’s a fair criticism that sakurai over thinks smash?

In what sense? I’m kinda confused what this means.

At face value no, I don’t think this is true or fair but I do think movesets have gotten a bit overtuned. Faithfulness has led to some pretty oppressive characters with far too many tools like Steve or Kazuya. It doesn’t mean he’s overthinking Smash though, the gameplay has not drastically changed and the base game newcomers were a pretty predictable bunch with fairly standard movesets actually. DLC tends to lean into that wow factor to drum up sales.

 

[fogbadge]

In what sense? I’m kinda confused what this means.

At face value no, I don’t think this is true or fair but I do think movesets have gotten a bit overtuned. Faithfulness has led to some pretty oppressive characters with far too many tools like Steve or Kazuya. It doesn’t mean he’s overthinking Smash though, the gameplay has not drastically changed and the base game newcomers were a pretty predictable bunch with fairly standard movesets actually. DLC tends to lean into that wow factor to drum up sales.

well the thing i was thinking in particular was when he said he couldn't have botw zelda cause she's not a fighter yet we have isabelle. so he was either overthinking the former or making stuff up

and then in regards to faithfulness we have steve who had to have mining and crafting and joker with a gimic that's not in his game. perhaps inconsistent levels of though would be a better phrase

 

[Louie G.]

well the thing i was thinking in particular was when he said he couldn't have botw zelda cause she's not a fighter yet we have isabelle. so he was either overthinking the former or making stuff up

I think there are probably different things at play here. Zelda already has a traditional magic oriented moveset in Smash and knowing that Sakurai doesn't typically like to overhaul veterans that way, he probably felt moreso that BOTW Zelda didn't suit the direction that Smash has already taken. Not to mention that her BOTW design is a bit more of a deviation than what we see with Link or Ganondorf's fluctuating designs, abandoning her dress altogether for example. I think what Sakurai decided on was the right decision quite frankly, even if his excuse doesn't hold up so much. It allowed us to have designs inspired by many parts of Zelda's series history rather than putting all our eggs into the BOTW basket and I don't think that design fits her old moveset.

In respect to Isabelle, I think the distinction here is like... there's not a lot of novelty to making a "non-fighter" Zelda playable if there are iterations better suited to the idea, or it doesn't reflect the essence of the character built up over 30 years. Meanwhile, there is no other more iconic incarnation of Isabelle with more moveset potential. With Isabelle, it's kind of what makes her fun. The unexpectedness and goofiness of having a character like Isabelle fighting titans like Ganondorf and Ridley has more of an impact, it's the inspiration rather than the limitation and they can go way further with it. Zelda wouldn't pop party poppers and float around comfortably on a swing, the cartooniness of Animal Crossing lends itself to taking the pacifist concept to an extreme and letting it be the whole appeal.

I think my conclusion is that Sakurai is not overthinking it, he's got opinions on what works and what doesn't just like any of us. I'm sure everyone here has one hangup or another with a suggested character change that you disagree with, or something already implemented in the game that doesn't click with you. Sakurai thinks this way too except we get to see all his choices put on full display. But I also think Sakurai has better game sense than the community and typically the reason we see characters play out like this is because he has to decide what is practical and functional, something many of us lose sight of or often simply don't understand.

 

[fogbadge]

I think there are probably different things at play here. Zelda already has a traditional magic oriented moveset in Smash and knowing that Sakurai doesn't typically like to overhaul veterans that way, he probably felt moreso that BOTW Zelda didn't suit the direction that Smash has already taken. Not to mention that her BOTW design is a bit more of a deviation than what we see with Link or Ganondorf's fluctuating designs, abandoning her dress altogether for example. I think what Sakurai decided on was the right decision quite frankly, even if his excuse doesn't hold up so much. It allowed us to have designs inspired by many parts of Zelda's series history rather than putting all our eggs into the BOTW basket and I don't think that design fits her old moveset.

In respect to Isabelle, I think the distinction here is like... there's not a lot of novelty to making a "non-fighter" Zelda playable if there are iterations better suited to the idea, or it doesn't reflect the essence of the character built up over 30 years. Meanwhile, there is no other more iconic incarnation of Isabelle with more moveset potential. With Isabelle, it's kind of what makes her fun. The unexpectedness and goofiness of having a character like Isabelle fighting titans like Ganondorf and Ridley has more of an impact, it's the inspiration rather than the limitation and they can go way further with it. Zelda wouldn't pop party poppers and float around comfortably on a swing, the cartooniness of Animal Crossing lends itself to taking the pacifist concept to an extreme and letting it be the whole appeal.

I think my conclusion is that Sakurai is not overthinking it, he's got opinions on what works and what doesn't just like any of us. I'm sure everyone here has one hangup or another with a suggested character change that you disagree with, or something already implemented in the game that doesn't click with you. Sakurai thinks this way too except we get to see all his choices put on full display. But I also think Sakurai has better game sense than the community and typically the reason we see characters play out like this is because he has to decide what is practical and functional, something many of us lose sight of or often simply don't understand.

I suppose that does make sense. Although botw Zelda still has a dress

 

[Louie G.]

I suppose that does make sense. Although botw Zelda still has a dress

Right sorry, I just meant the most prominent version of the design. But yeah I think the Zelda we currently have is about as iconic as it gets, I'm happy that this is the one we landed on.

 

[fogbadge]

Right sorry, I just meant the most prominent version of the design. But yeah I think the Zelda we currently have is about as iconic as it gets, I'm happy that this is the one we landed on.

fair enough

 

[Sucumbio]

Yeah it's not as if Sakurai is without fault, some of his design decisions are kinda wonky and they've have to go back and fix some of the balance issues as a result. But I don't ascribe it to over thinking it or being a perfectionist to a fault, just that he has some personal ideas which don't always mesh with others, especially in the long run. On a side note I'd wager there's also a bit of a cultural divide between Japan and the West where these ideas of his may be seen as odd, or flimsy.

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah it's not as if Sakurai is without fault, some of his design decisions are kinda wonky and they've have to go back and fix some of the balance issues as a result. But I don't ascribe it to over thinking it or being a perfectionist to a fault, just that he has some personal ideas which don't always mesh with others, especially in the long run. On a side note I'd wager there's also a bit of a cultural divide between Japan and the West where these ideas of his may be seen as odd, or flimsy.

I guess that’s a much better way of putting it

 

[DarthEnderX]

well the thing i was thinking in particular was when he said he couldn't have botw zelda cause she's not a fighter yet we have isabelle. so he was either overthinking the former or making stuff up

I think he's just making up excuses to shut nerds up.

 

[Oracle Link]

Random thought: would you say it’s a fair criticism that sakurai over thinks smash?

Depends on one hand he has these weird ideas like Bowser=Lizard and DK = Ape and Ganondorf = Captain falcon
on the other hand he had to give every dlc character in ultimate 1 or sometimes multiple gimmicks!

 

[chocolatejr9]

So I know we talk about Retro Studios often here, so I figured I'd share this:

I know this isn't exactly Smash-related (unless you wanna talk about Metroid Prime or DKC content), but... MAN. I knew these guys had it rough from the get-go, but after seeing this it's a miracle they weren't shutdown.

 

[Fluttershy64]

A character from Them's Fighting Herds for Smash 6 please.

 

[MasterCheef]

Found my New most wanted Indie Rep , Ebenezer

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

So I know we talk about Retro Studios often here, so I figured I'd share this:

I know this isn't exactly Smash-related (unless you wanna talk about Metroid Prime or DKC content), but... MAN. I knew these guys had it rough from the get-go, but after seeing this it's a miracle they weren't shutdown.

Don’t have the time to watch it so if this mentions it, sorry for the double info.

Retro’s near collapse can almost entirely be traced back to the one and only Jeff “The Guy Game” Spangenberg. I highly HIGHLY recommend watching the “What Happened?” Video for Metroid Prime that Matt McMuscles did on his YouTube channel because OOF.

Jeff is lucky he’s not in prison for embezzling money from Nintendo and other things that shan’t be named on here. Long story short, Prime is a miracle game that came together with the assistance of Nintendo Veterans being put into the company because Jeff decided to hire the bare minimum amount of people for the company and ALL OF THEM were fresh out of college with no experience. Prime is an incredible testament to 10% luck, 20% skill, 15% Concentrated Power of Will, and the rest of the percentage being Nintendos now overlord-like hawks eye on the project.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The struggles Retro had really underscore what a big hole Rare left when Microsoft acquired them. Not to say that the British developer didn't have its own occasional issues and its likely that they and Nintendo were likely already moving in different directions even before the purchase, but they were a highly skilled and consistent 2nd party that needed far less direct guidance than Retro did. Rare still being active on the GC and after while Nintendo was sheparding Retro is an interesting what if, especially if the likes of the former had gotten a crack at doing something like Metroid themselves some day.

 

[StormC]

The struggles Retro had really underscore what a big hole Rare left when Microsoft acquired them. Not to say that the British developer didn't have its own occasional issues and its likely that they and Nintendo were likely already moving in different directions even before the purchase, but they were a highly skilled and consistent 2nd party that needed far less direct guidance than Retro did. Rare still being active on the GC and after while Nintendo was sheparding Retro is an interesting what if, especially if the likes of the former had gotten a crack at doing something like Metroid themselves some day.

Monolith Soft is closer to a modern Rare than Retro, really. They've been able to put out a healthy and consistent software output since 2015 and have been crucial as support in flagship Nintendo series.

 

[Stratos]

I long ago gave up on the idea that Nintendo should buy Rare, but some still hold out hope that Nintendo will come to an agreement with Microsoft so that Nintendo can get Rare back, although that is unlikely to happen.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I mean realistically Nintendo doesn't really need Rare now (as noted Monolith and the likes of Next Level Games are already producing solid work on top of Retro potentially becoming more active again) and the latter company is pretty deeply entrenched within Microsoft (a gaming giant that doesn't seem keen on losing any studios these days). While there are clear gaps wwith certain series that could really use a consistent studio (see Star Fox and Donkey Kong) Nintendo in general has beefed up their development work considerably in comparison to the Gamecube era.

I do wonder if the use of Rare IP's like Banjo, Battletoads, and Killer Instinct on Nintendo systems might be a possibility some day; even a true sequel to Diddy Kong Racing with all the original characters would be a dream.

 

[Dinoman96]

I do wonder if the use of Rare IP's like Banjo, Battletoads, and Killer Instinct on Nintendo systems might be a possibility some day; even a true sequel to Diddy Kong Racing with all the original characters would be a dream.

Honestly all I just want from Diddy Kong Racing at this point is the original game through NSO. The N64 original (and not its inferior DS remake) has not existed since 2002, even GoldenEye was brought out of copyright hell earlier this year.

At least the other 90s Rare games will always be available through Xbox/Rare Replay, but this is the only shot DKR has at coming back.

 

[Stratos]

The Banjo-Kazooie and Conker video game series are owned by Rare as everyone knows, but the characters Banjo and Conker made their debut together in Diddy Kong Racing, a Donkey Kong franchise game that is connected to the Mario franchise and although the Donkey Kong franchise is owned by Nintendo, thanks to Rare Donkey Kong (either grandson or son of the first Donkey Kong we now know as Cranky Kong) got his own franchise and since Banjo and Conker debuted together in Diddy Kong Racing in my opinion the Banjo-Kazooie and Conker video game series should be considered part of the Donkey Kong franchise. Mario was also mentioned a few times in the Banjo-Kazooie series. But the Banjo-Kazooie and Conker series of video games still belong to Rare and yes I wrote before that I gave up on the idea of Nintendo taking Rare back. As much as I don't want to admit it I have to make up my mind that Nintendo is not going to take Rare back from Microsoft.

 

[Dinoman96]

The Banjo-Kazooie and Conker video game series are owned by Rare as everyone knows, but the characters Banjo and Conker made their debut together in Diddy Kong Racing, a Donkey Kong franchise game that is connected to the Mario franchise and although the Donkey Kong franchise is owned by Nintendo, thanks to Rare Donkey Kong (either grandson or son of the first Donkey Kong we now know as Cranky Kong) got his own franchise and since Banjo and Conker debuted together in Diddy Kong Racing in my opinion the Banjo-Kazooie and Conker video game series should be considered part of the Donkey Kong franchise. Mario was also mentioned a few times in the Banjo-Kazooie series. But the Banjo-Kazooie and Conker series of video games still belong to Rare and yes I wrote before that I gave up on the idea of Nintendo taking Rare back. As much as I don't want to admit it I have to make up my mind that Nintendo is not going to take Rare back from Microsoft.

tbh Banjo and Conker debuting in Diddy Kong Racing is kind of a funny case in that those characters already had their respective titles in development, Rare just included them in the roster for the sake of advertising the then-coming Banjo-Kazooie and Twelve Tales: Conker 64 (lol). So it's not like after DKR's release, someone at Rare looked at Banjo and Conker and said "yeah let's give them games".

Banjo-Kazooie was actually supposed to be Nintendo's big 1997 holiday title...but then it got delayed into mid 1998. Thankfully Rare just so happened to have a racing game named Pro-Am 64 starring Timber the Tiger to fill its shoes, and that's where they and Nintendo decided to make Diddy Kong the star to make it sell more.

Too bad it made it a big licensing nightmare to re-release several years after the fact.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The struggles Retro had really underscore what a big hole Rare left when Microsoft acquired them. Not to say that the British developer didn't have its own occasional issues and its likely that they and Nintendo were likely already moving in different directions even before the purchase, but they were a highly skilled and consistent 2nd party that needed far less direct guidance than Retro did. Rare still being active on the GC and after while Nintendo was sheparding Retro is an interesting what if, especially if the likes of the former had gotten a crack at doing something like Metroid themselves some day.

In retrospect, back in the Rare-Nintendo days a DK team already should've been established between the two companies. That would have kept them together for sure.

It's a shame that NO developer being handed the DK brand saw it as their main priority and seemingly "used" it to establish a name for themselves. Retro moreso with Metroid Prime, but DKC did way better commercially anyway.

 

[chocolatejr9]

In retrospect, back in the Rare-Nintendo days a DK team already should've been establisted between the two companies. That would have kept them together for sure.

It's a shame that NO developer being handed the DK brand saw it as their main priority and seemingly "used" it to establish a name for themselves. Retro moreso with Metroid Prime, but DKC did way better commercially anyway.

And if the DYKG vid is any indicator, Retro didn't even WANT to work on DKC, to the point where a good chunk of their staff left in protest.

Then again, those same people would go on to found a company that would later get bought out by Facebook, so take that as you will...

 

[Diddy Kong]

And if the DYKG vid is any indicator, Retro didn't even WANT to work on DKC, to the point where a good chunk of their staff left in protest.

Then again, those same people would go on to found a company that would later get bought out by Facebook, so take that as you will...

WAIT WHAT?! That's outrageous even... Retro and Rare seem to share a common "beef" with Nintendo in this regard. And this only makes the situation with DK all the worse. Why is this legendary popular, cash making machine of a brand so refused by these developers? And why does it take so long for Nintendo to take matters in their own hand?

What a damn mess this all is! I'll look up the DYKG video too. What is the title?

 

[chocolatejr9]

WAIT WHAT?! That's outrageous even... Retro and Rare seem to share a common "beef" with Nintendo in this regard. And this only makes the situation with DK all the worse. Why is this legendary popular, cash making machine of a brand so refused by these developers? And why does it take so long for Nintendo to take matters in their own hand?

What a damn mess this all is! I'll look up the DYKG video too. What is the title?

It's this one I posted above:

So I know we talk about Retro Studios often here, so I figured I'd share this:

I know this isn't exactly Smash-related (unless you wanna talk about Metroid Prime or DKC content), but... MAN. I knew these guys had it rough from the get-go, but after seeing this it's a miracle they weren't shutdown.

 

[Stratos]

I don't know how you would consider it but I have a feeling that any company that gets bought by Nintendo is lucky, not that it isn't if it hasn't been bought by Nintendo, it's just a feeling.

 

[Noipoi]

Since the last DK game released-

-The entire Splatoon series got its start, and now has three entries.
-There have been 3 whole generations of Pokemon.
-The Super Mario Bros Movie was both announced and released.
-Both Sonic movies were announced and released.
-We've been through 2 Smash games.
-We've been through 2 presidents.
-I started, suffered through, and completed puberty.


It's uhhh...It's been a while

 

[fogbadge]

Since the last DK game released-

-The entire Splatoon series got its start, and now has three entries.
-There have been 3 whole generations of Pokemon.
-The Super Mario Bros Movie was both announced and released.
-Both Sonic movies were announced and released.
-We've been through 2 Smash games.
-We've been through 2 presidents.
-I started, suffered through, and completed puberty.


It's uhhh...It's been a while

you should see the amount of prime ministers we've been through

 

[chocolatejr9]

Since the last DK game released-

-The entire Splatoon series got its start, and now has three entries.
-There have been 3 whole generations of Pokemon.
-The Super Mario Bros Movie was both announced and released.
-Both Sonic movies were announced and released.
-We've been through 2 Smash games.
-We've been through 2 presidents.
-I started, suffered through, and completed puberty.


It's uhhh...It's been a while

Don't forget stuff like Pikmin 4 and the SMRPG remake!

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Since the last DK game released-

-The entire Splatoon series got its start, and now has three entries.
-There have been 3 whole generations of Pokemon.
-The Super Mario Bros Movie was both announced and released.
-Both Sonic movies were announced and released.
-We've been through 2 Smash games.
-We've been through 2 presidents.
-I started, suffered through, and completed puberty.


It's uhhh...It's been a while

Adding to that:

-No Man's Sky was developed, released, panned, rebuilt, and skyrocketed to critical/commercial successes.
-We've had at least three distinct spiritual successors to DKC (Kaze the Wild Masks, Yooka Laylee & the Impossible Lair, & Marsupilami)
-One new Metroid title, one Metroid remake, one Metroid spin-off, and one Metroid remaster have come out
-Star Citizen has raised 600 million dollars (without releasing a final product)
-Monster Hunter went from a Western niche series more popular in Japan into a worldwide juggernaut
-The rise and eventual disappearance of big company retro mini consoles
-Microsoft acquired Mojang, Ninja Theory, Zenimax, Obsidian, and Activision Blizzard


Oh, and two new Bubsy games somehow got unleashed on the world

 

[Louie G.]

Something pretty interesting that was brought to my attention recently, working off a conversation I started a week or so ago. I mostly brought up that I considered Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Pikmin to be some of the biggest winners of the last generation and worth considering as some of their big dogs, especially when considering what first party content may be added in a future Smash incarnation. But Nintendo made a pretty interesting addition to their series portals on their Japanese site recently.

Lo and behold, Wario gets to sit among Nintendo's heaviest hitters. Granted this could definitely be more of a promotional move for the release of WarioWare Move It, but I thought it was neat to see him there. Also take notice, Wario Land truthers, that the series is simply labeled "Wario". Not reading too much into it right now but I'd love to see them start pushing Wario even more in the future.

I guess to tie it into Smash, how do you guys think Wario can get expanded on next time around? I'll ignore the obvious Wario Land part in favor of mentioning that not even WarioWARE got much new content in Smash Ultimate - in fact it outright lost content since Kat & Ana did not return as an Assist Trophy. Brawl's collection of Ware remixes are some of my favorite in the entire series, provide such a fun wacky flair to the game and it makes me upset that we haven't seen too much more since then. I think ignoring Body Rock from WarioWare DIY was a heinous crime.

I'm not sure if I'd necessarily advocate for more characters - I wouldn't turn them down whatsoever, but I think we're okay as is. Giving major players like Mona or Jimmy T just a bit more presence in the game some way or another would be appreciated though. Maybe as additional ATs or stage cameos.

 

[Soy_Man]

Since the last DK game released-

-The passage of time occurred.

 

[Speed Weed]

Something pretty interesting that was brought to my attention recently, working off a conversation I started a week or so ago. I mostly brought up that I considered Animal Crossing, Splatoon and Pikmin to be some of the biggest winners of the last generation and worth considering as some of their big dogs, especially when considering what first party content may be added in a future Smash incarnation. But Nintendo made a pretty interesting addition to their series portals on their Japanese site recently.

Lo and behold, Wario gets to sit among Nintendo's heaviest hitters. Granted this could definitely be more of a promotional move for the release of WarioWare Move It, but I thought it was neat to see him there. Also take notice, Wario Land truthers, that the series is simply labeled "Wario". Not reading too much into it right now but I'd love to see them start pushing Wario even more in the future.

I guess to tie it into Smash, how do you guys think Wario can get expanded on next time around? I'll ignore the obvious Wario Land part in favor of mentioning that not even WarioWARE got any new content in Smash Ultimate - in fact it outright lost content since Kat & Ana did not return as an Assist Trophy. Brawl's collection of Ware remixes are some of my favorite in the entire series, provide such a fun wacky flair to the game and it makes me upset that we haven't seen too much more since then. I think ignoring Body Rock from WarioWare DIY was a heinous crime.

I'm not sure if I'd necessarily advocate for more characters - I wouldn't turn them down whatsoever, but I think we're okay as is. Giving major players like Mona or Jimmy T just a bit more presence in the game some way or another would be appreciated though. Maybe as additional ATs or stage cameos.

It's also worth noting that (WarioWare Move It spoilers) Kat and Ana's level actually features an appearance from an old Wario Land 4 boss coming back for the first time - he's even outright named as being that character. I can't remember the last time the Ware games (or frankly any piece of Mario-adjacent media in recent years) acknowledged the Land side of things this overtly - if they ever did - so it's very cool and surprising to see

 

[fogbadge]

It's also worth noting that (WarioWare Move It spoilers) Kat and Ana's level actually features an appearance from an old Wario Land 4 boss coming back for the first time - he's even outright named as being that character. I can't remember the last time the Ware games (or frankly any piece of Mario-adjacent media in recent years) acknowledged the Land side of things this overtly - if they ever did - so it's very cool and surprising to see

which one?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I can't remember the last time the Ware games (or frankly any piece of Mario-adjacent media in recent years) acknowledged the Land side of things this overtly

Does Gold having a WL3 microgame count?

 

[Speed Weed]

Does Gold having a WL3 microgame count?

.......oops