Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

I mean that's kinda the whole point of stance characters isn't it?

There are definitely pairs (or trios ) that make sense and allow for multiple characters to be included under one "slot", but I don't think traditional stance characters should be exempt just because they don't increase the head count.

As for the second point, wouldn't having actual Ganon serve that role better? Even if it's another form of a character already on the roster, he'd still be distinct both visually and moveset wise. I would hope that having that as a second Ganon would be easier to swallow for most Smash fans after 3 Links who essentially serve as semi clones of each other.

Yeah, I have no issues whatsoever with stance characters myself but I imagine the people opposed to transform characters would be even more opposed to stance characters for the same reason. I’d be happy either way as long as the character is still fun to play.

As for pig Ganon, I’d also love to see him get in as his own character but I was thinking more along the lines of changing up the one we have. I view him to have a much different style as the hulking brute pig Ganon despite sharing some of the same inspiration for moves. My idea is basically OoT Ganondorf that borrows Ganon’s trident and Fire bats to fill out his moveset. He’s more of a floaty dark mage with movement closer to Dark Samus. Pig Ganon would probably be a slower, heavy hitter with some projectiles like K. Rool or Dedede. Anyway, that’s just how I was envisioning it and it’s far from the only good way to go with the character.

 

[Sucumbio]

Would you be opposed to Ganondorf being a stance change character?

Heck no. I think it's a nifty idea, actually.

 

[Kirbeh]

The way I look at it is... Stance Characters and Transformation Characters are identical in practice except for how they get to the next character(transformations take a bit longer to load).

However, with that in mind, stuff like how stats are programmed in do matter. Ganondorf with a stance isn't the same as a Ganondorf transforming outright into another Ganondorf, as that treats them as separate characters. I do forget how the stats worked during Brawl, though. I know functionally they're different in programming, but not in every way. If I remember right, this is why things like alt costumes for anyone with a unique ability or any stat change itself was forced into another slot. I just don't remember if a Transformation character counts as more than one slot. X.X

In actual practice, transformations or team characters are multiple slots as they're still individual characters requiring as much dev time as any other. Because their concepts are tied around being a transformation (old ) or a team () they just occupy one "slot" when it comes to the CSS/marketing. Or at least they did since Ultimate actually acknowledges them as separate numbered fighters unlike previous titles.

A traditional stance character would still be the one character but could take up significantly more dev time depending on how complex/different the stance actually is. In terms of development a character with a stance/two move sets would (potentially) be essentially two characters as far as workload goes just not in labeling/categorization.

And yes, stats alone can drastically change how a character plays hence why certain clones/echoes exist. You've got simple but major changes like lack of tipper on or barely noticeable one's like (but differences with the potential to affect game play/balance all the same.)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

In actual practice, transformations or team characters are multiple slots as they're still individual characters requiring as much dev time as any other. Because their concepts are tied around being a transformation (old ) or a team () they just occupy one "slot" when it comes to the CSS/marketing. Or at least they did since Ultimate actually acknowledges them as separate numbered fighters unlike previous titles.

A traditional stance character would still be the one character but could take up significantly more dev time depending on how complex/different the stance actually is. In terms of development a character with a stance/two move sets would (potentially) be essentially two characters as far as workload goes just not in labeling/categorization.

And yes, stats alone can drastically change how a character plays hence why certain clones/echoes exist. You've got simple but major changes like lack of tipper on or barely noticeable one's like (but differences with the potential to affect game play/balance all the same.)

We're saying the same thing.

I wasn't talking about the development factor, but how they are in gameplay. In gameplay practice, the difference for what you work with is pretty much "loading time" only. Minus the stat screen you can view in a different area of the game. Naturally they work differently in other ways. I wasn't able to word it well, sorry~

In both cases, they're a development sink because it's still making more than one character.

Though as I said, I forget which counts as having unique stats(as in the VS Stats. Like how Mario and Dr. Mario have separated stats, I don't remember if Zelda/Sheik would be labeled differently in Brawl otherwise. I know slots do that, hence how Echoes work, and why ones like Daisy, despite barely a hurtbox difference, is completely separated). I just forget if it's entirely based upon slots or a physical separate character.

 

[Kirbeh]

We're saying the same thing.

I wasn't talking about the development factor, but how they are in gameplay. In gameplay practice, the difference for what you work with is pretty much "loading time" only. Minus the stat screen you can view in a different area of the game. Naturally they work differently in other ways. I wasn't able to word it well, sorry~

In both cases, they're a development sink because it's still making more than one character.

Though as I said, I forget which counts as having unique stats(as in the VS Stats. Like how Mario and Dr. Mario have separated stats, I don't remember if Zelda/Sheik would be labeled differently in Brawl otherwise. I know slots do that, hence how Echoes work, and why ones like Daisy, despite barely a hurtbox difference, is completely separated). I just forget if it's entirely based upon slots or a physical separate character.

Oh, my bad, I misunderstood what you were asking. As for the actual VS stats I honestly don't remember either.

 

[jamesster445]

I'm surprised that this hasn't been posted yet:

I think Smash fans wanting a reboot have a fundamental misunderstanding of why a reboot would happen in the first place. Reboots be it games or movies happen for one and/or 3 reasons.

A. The franchise has been on hiatus or dead for a particularly long time and so a reboot is needed. See Killer Instinct 3, Doom (2016) or the Rise of the Planet of the Apes trilogy.
B. The last entry was a colossal failure. See Halo Infinite, Soul Calibur 6 or James Gunn's new DC Cinematic Universe.
C. A Changing of hands. See the Spider-man film franchises.

Case in point, look at Mortal Kombat. Armageddon/MK7 was an 'Everyone is Here' game bringing back every fighter in the series. Midway actually had plans for a proper followup to the series after Armageddon. But a combination of things caused Midway to go bankrupt. Enter Netherealm Studios a new studio partially made up of remnants of Midway such as Ed Boon. They ultimately decided that the 3D era of Mortal Kombat was not working for them nearly as much as the original trilogy was critically or financially. And so MK9 was a reboot not only resetting the story back to the original trilogy but also back to 2D gameplay. And its been working well for them

I can say something similar for Street Fighter. While SF3 is beloved by the hardcore FGC, the general audiences were not happy with it and so Street Fighter and Capcom fighting games as a whole died. Street Fighter 4 is a soft reboot of the series bringing the roster, feel and mechanics to something resembling Street Fighter 2. And SF4 was very successful not only for the franchises but essentially helped to revive 2D fighting games as a genre.

Smash Ultimate might be the single most successful game in its class. Not only being the best selling fighting game of all time on a single platform, and somehow despite executive meddling and a "broken meta", Smash has a fairly healthy competitive scene. Ultimately what people are really asking for is just a sequel. And honestly everything people are asking can be found in a sequel.

And even if you wanted to go the scorched earth approach. 3 words. 3D Platform Fighter. But even that shouldn't replace 2D Smash Bros and should essentially be it's own series like 2D and 3D Mario.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The most popular choices are Skull Kid and Midna, with Impa as a distant third. Zelda fans need to push those characters hard. It's the only way I think we'll ever get one.

I really don't think Impa is behind SK and Midna these days. She's become much more popular since her Warriors appearances, and Skull Kid and Midna aren't as fresh in fan's minds as they used to be.

Would you be opposed to Ganondorf being a stance change character?

Yes, because I don't like stance change characters in general. It just makes a character twice as complicated to play. It also uses dev resources that could be put towards adding another character instead.

Ganondorf's old bruiser fighting style should go to Black Shadow.

 

[Louie G.]

Skull Kid and Midna aren't as fresh in fan's minds as they used to be.

I disagree, Majora's Mask remains one of the most famous and most striking pieces of gaming iconography ever and I see new art of Midna practically every day. I don't know how precisely strong the Smash support is specifically for either of these characters at this current moment in time, but neither of them are any less fresh or recognizable than they've ever been.

Not arguing this against Impa per se just defending that these characters are still well loved and frequently talked about. She's definitely been on the rise but I'm uncertain if she's totally closed that gap in terms of general popularity.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Not arguing this against Impa per se just defending that these characters are still well loved and frequently talked about.

I'm sure they are. I just think Impa has been eclipsing them lately.

 

[Mamboo07]

I'm sure they are. I just think Impa has been eclipsing them lately.

She got pretty requested after she was revealed in Calamity.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

I really wish this thread could stop focusing on characters and franchises for once and focus more on how the next Smash could add to or change the core gameplay. Frankly, there's more interesting discussion on core gameplay changes over new characters since focusing on the latter makes discussion stale and the franchise also stale.

Other than bring back For Glory, Decreasing the Input lag and returning the buffer to the of Smash 4. Smash has the gameplay nailed for the most part.

I would add a normal ****ing classic mode back in.

In terms for Classic Mode. For next game, Ult's Classic Mode should return as an Arcade mode with better routes and Classic Mode for Smash Wii U should return as a Cossellium Mode for the Replayability factor

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Impa's requests have gotten higher, but it's split among different versions of her, and not the concept even as a composite of multiple ones is that popular. It's just specific ones that jump out to people(SS, HW, and AOC are all separately popular characters too).

She doesn't really eclipse Skull Kid and Midna by any means, since it's 3 fairly popular renditions of Impa that have gained traction throughout the years. They still ultimately are more popular than her.

I'd like a Ganondorf stance character or just another character altogether for a different moveset. Either works. He's very fun to use, since he's a great physical powerhouse(just like in canon) while using a fair bit of magic in more than one way. Channeling his magic into straight power isn't even odd anyway. This is an actual thing in fiction. That, and only Dark Dive among his specials has no real basis in animations or even a loose interpretation of something he does, making it oddly the least canonical move. He does Kick and Punch in canon(and his Forward Air is directly taken from official artwork). Only projectile I feel fits best is the Lightning Ball, if only because it's easy to be truly faithful to it(DMV is literally not just a Boss Move, so harder to transfer over, but the basis of the move is how easy it needs to be able to be reflected. It's named after the whole point, being specific "Volleyball"(despite the tennis jokes, it's more about hitting it back with a weapon, not just returning it alone) in multiple languages too to drive home the point(officially the names are Vicious Volleyball in French, Hellish Volleyball in German, and Infernal Volleyball in Spanish). It's actually not even that odd of a term, when you realize he outright flings it similar to a Volleyball Serve.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind DMV is never used officially outside of Phantom Hourglass as a name. So who knows what they used to call it in development or in the specific files. This also is worth noting that it was never named anyway, and thus, is kind of hard to define as a move to give to Ganondorf at any point till Phantom Hourglass released, which is as early as 4. That's already 3 games in. All we know is that as a projectile, it needed to be reflected to be faithful. And even then, it was always just a way to damage the boss, with other projectiles usually used to make sure it wasn't a one-note and easy battle. That, and said Lightning Ball attack is worth noting that it splitting into projectiles happens more than once(it's the "Blue Balls" move Aganahim uses, and the multiple projectile move that OOT Ganondorf and WW Phantom Ganon use. Also, for a twist of irony, even Link has that ability in HW, while in Great Fairy form(though keep in mind it's basically a cutscene before the Great Fairy herself lanuches a full-powered projectile in general. Link and the Great Fairy directly do DMV against each other during the cutscene, so even in the rare instance a player character can use it, it's not something you can throw into a fighting game logically. It's still super different from how it can function. It could work as a Final Smash, though, in that particular style).

Anyway, I do think the multi projectile(which is basically "Lightning Ball" originally. Though TP is the first to use a different move that changes up its function) would do wonders for him. It's hard to actually reflect by design(though if you want to be faithful, any reflector that is a Smash attack would need to be fully charged, and a normal Reflector/Deflector should work functionally as is since it'd be a really poor balance if it didn't. Knocking out the current Reflector shield so it can't be held down would be a potential balancing factor though). Or you could use the slightly different TP version which isn't multi-layered, and could be a normal reflectable attack, deal good stunning damage, and not be awkward in function, but still very faithful in practice. That said, DMV wouldn't be complete if it couldn't be reflected by a few silly things(Bug Nets, Bottles, etc), so even if what reflects it is limited, those kind of things are what made it such an interesting boss ability. That it had hidden ways to reflect it back. That gives it a lot of life. To say the least, there's more than once nice direction to go in for a projectile.

...He does need a reflector the most, though. Oof.

 

[Gengar84]

Impa's requests have gotten higher, but it's split among different versions of her, and not the concept even as a composite of multiple ones is that popular. It's just specific ones that jump out to people(SS, HW, and AOC are all separately popular characters too).

She doesn't really eclipse Skull Kid and Midna by any means, since it's 3 fairly popular renditions of Impa that have gained traction throughout the years. They still ultimately are more popular than her.

I'd like a Ganondorf stance character or just another character altogether for a different moveset. Either works. He's very fun to use, since he's a great physical powerhouse(just like in canon) while using a fair bit of magic in more than one way. Channeling his magic into straight power isn't even odd anyway. This is an actual thing in fiction. That, and only Dark Dive among his specials has no real basis in animations or even a loose interpretation of something he does, making it oddly the least canonical move. He does Kick and Punch in canon(and his Forward Air is directly taken from official artwork). Only projectile I feel fits best is the Lightning Ball, if only because it's easy to be truly faithful to it(DMV is literally not just a Boss Move, so harder to transfer over, but the basis of the move is how easy it needs to be able to be reflected. It's named after the whole point, being specific "Volleyball"(despite the tennis jokes, it's more about hitting it back with a weapon, not just returning it alone) in multiple languages too to drive home the point(officially the names are Vicious Volleyball in French, Hellish Volleyball in German, and Infernal Volleyball in Spanish). It's actually not even that odd of a term, when you realize he outright flings it similar to a Volleyball Serve.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind DMV is never used officially outside of Phantom Hourglass as a name. So who knows what they used to call it in development or in the specific files. This also is worth noting that it was never named anyway, and thus, is kind of hard to define as a move to give to Ganondorf at any point till Phantom Hourglass released, which is as early as 4. That's already 3 games in. All we know is that as a projectile, it needed to be reflected to be faithful. And even then, it was always just a way to damage the boss, with other projectiles usually used to make sure it wasn't a one-note and easy battle. That, and said Lightning Ball attack is worth noting that it splitting into projectiles happens more than once(it's the "Blue Balls" move Aganahim uses, and the multiple projectile move that OOT Ganondorf and WW Phantom Ganon use. Also, for a twist of irony, even Link has that ability in HW, while in Great Fairy form(though keep in mind it's basically a cutscene before the Great Fairy herself lanuches a full-powered projectile in general. Link and the Great Fairy directly do DMV against each other during the cutscene, so even in the rare instance a player character can use it, it's not something you can throw into a fighting game logically. It's still super different from how it can function. It could work as a Final Smash, though, in that particular style).

Anyway, I do think the multi projectile(which is basically "Lightning Ball" originally. Though TP is the first to use a different move that changes up its function) would do wonders for him. It's hard to actually reflect by design(though if you want to be faithful, any reflector that is a Smash attack would need to be fully charged, and a normal Reflector/Deflector should work functionally as is since it'd be a really poor balance if it didn't. Knocking out the current Reflector shield so it can't be held down would be a potential balancing factor though). Or you could use the slightly different TP version which isn't multi-layered, and could be a normal reflectable attack, deal good stunning damage, and not be awkward in function, but still very faithful in practice. That said, DMV wouldn't be complete if it couldn't be reflected by a few silly things(Bug Nets, Bottles, etc), so even if what reflects it is limited, those kind of things are what made it such an interesting boss ability. That it had hidden ways to reflect it back. That gives it a lot of life. To say the least, there's more than once nice direction to go in for a projectile.

...He does need a reflector the most, though. Oof.

Yeah, if I were designing a new moveset for him today, I think I’d move the ground pound to a down aerial that is basically the same as the descending part of Terry’s down special and his reflector would be moved to a down special.

As for Impa, I’d also be happy with her Skyward Sword variant since she shares a lot of design elements with her Hyrule Warriors version. We don’t have any Skyward Sword representation in terms of which version of the Triforce trio is represented (Link has BotW, MM/OoT, and WW, Zelda has ALttP, and Ganondorf and Sheik are OoT).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, if I were designing a new moveset for him today, I think I’d move the ground pound to a down aerial that is basically the same as the descending part of Terry’s down special and his reflector would be moved to a down special.

As for Impa, I’d also be happy with her Skyward Sword variant since she shares a lot of design elements with her Hyrule Warriors version. We don’t have any Skyward Sword representation in terms of which version of the Triforce trio is represented (Link has BotW, MM/OoT, and WW, Zelda has ALttP, and Ganondorf and Sheik are OoT).

It more or less got everything but a character and Mii costume, so it's not terribly bad enough. But that's one potential way to represent it more directly, too~ Though Link does at least have a SS costume, which helps a tad. Said costume is back in Ultimate, but without the same sword. Zelda has a costume in Ultimate which resembles her SS outfit a bit, and 4 has a SS costume too. Sheik has no references, though some have theorized one of her 4 costumes is loosely based upon Impa, but it's not clear enough(at least for Smash Wiki to list it. Grain of salt, though).

Hmm. I do wonder if his ground pound would function better than his current Down Aerial. Both could have interesting merits.

 

[Gengar84]

It more or less got everything but a character and Mii costume, so it's not terribly bad enough. But that's one potential way to represent it more directly, too~ Though Link does at least have a SS costume, which helps a tad. Said costume is back in Ultimate, but without the same sword. Zelda has a costume in Ultimate which resembles her SS outfit a bit, and 4 has a SS costume too. Sheik has no references, though some have theorized one of her 4 costumes is loosely based upon Impa, but it's not clear enough(at least for Smash Wiki to list it. Grain of salt, though).

Hmm. I do wonder if his ground pound would function better than his current Down Aerial. Both could have interesting merits.

His current down aerial is a lot of fun to use. It reminds me a bit of M. Bison’s stomp from Street Fighter. I don’t remember him ever doing anything similar in the Zelda games and it’s still a leftover from when he was a Falcon clone. I’m cool either way but the ground pound would be more true to his canon abilities.

Another potential place you could use it is as a down smash. Just quickly tapping the smash would cause him to just pound the ground without leaping and he could jump higher depending on how long you charged the move. A fully charged smash would be very similar to Terry’s down special.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

His current down aerial is a lot of fun to use. It reminds me a bit of M. Bison’s stomp from Street Fighter. I don’t remember him ever doing anything similar in the Zelda games and it’s still a leftover from when he was a Falcon clone. I’m cool either way but the ground pound would be more true to his canon abilities.

Another potential place you could use it is as a down smash. Just quickly tapping the smash would cause him to just pound the ground without leaping and he could jump higher depending on how long you charged the move. A fully charged smash would be very similar to Terry’s down special.

The animation is the same, though slightly different shoulder differences due to the bodies being a tad different later. Functionally, Ganondorf's is an automatic Meteor Smash, while Falcon has to hit a sweetspot. So they are different in the end, which being Ganondorf has terrible air time, is a good balance.

Down Smash could be interesting. Honestly, his current one is pretty much just a revision of his old Down Smash and not interesting at all. His other two are pretty nice, though. What's your thoughts on a better functioning Up Tilt? ...It says something when Warlock Punch is... less bad. ._.;

 

[Gengar84]

The animation is the same, though slightly different shoulder differences due to the bodies being a tad different later. Functionally, Ganondorf's is an automatic Meteor Smash, while Falcon has to hit a sweetspot. So they are different in the end, which being Ganondorf has terrible air time, is a good balance.

Down Smash could be interesting. Honestly, his current one is pretty much just a revision of his old Down Smash and not interesting at all. His other two are pretty nice, though. What's your thoughts on a better functioning Up Tilt? ...It says something when Warlock Punch is... less bad. ._.;

I haven’t really thought on a specific up tilt but maybe something along the lines of Mewtwo’s up smash would make sense. I haven’t beaten Tears of the Kingdom yet so maybe his boss fight in that game has some good material we can pull from.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I haven’t really thought on a specific up tilt but maybe something along the lines of Mewtwo’s up smash would make sense. I haven’t beaten Tears of the Kingdom yet so maybe his boss fight in that game has some good material we can pull from.

There’s a, uh, very specific part of Ganondorf’s final battle that is just… incredible. If they don’t recreate some part of it in Smash I’ll be disappointed.

MAJOR TEARS OF THE KINGDOM SPOILERS BELOW DO NOT OPEN IF YOU CARE ABOUT SPOILERS BIG WARNING

Spoiler

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There’s a, uh, very specific part of Ganondorf’s final battle that is just… incredible. If they don’t recreate some part of it in Smash I’ll be disappointed.

MAJOR TEARS OF THE KINGDOM SPOILERS BELOW DO NOT OPEN IF YOU CARE ABOUT SPOILERS BIG WARNING

Spoiler

To be fair, what does this relate to an Up Tilt idea? XD ...I held off mentioning it when talking about how Ganondorf is portrayed(and his abilities), but yeah, TOTK really changes things up.

I didn't see his fights, but I do know loosely he fights quite differently from other sword battles(not unlike WW Ganondorf who is nothing like OOT and TP Ganondorfs. In fact, all 4 of his canon battles are completely unique. Okay, to be fair, Ganon in OOT is the Sword fighter. But still). Honestly, I do like every form of Ganondorf and Ganon as some kind of combined boss has some swordplay. I think it's good that they make sure to have him as a physical user, a spellcaster, and a sword user. All 3 are a core part of his identity, especially in OOT which starts it off. Smash just needs to delve slightly more into his magic, which is only used for physical blows thusfar(and transforming via a Final Smash).

 

[Perkilator]

I see Ganondorf’s grounded fist Attack as more of a AOE down Smash attack.

 

[Gengar84]

I see Ganondorf’s grounded fist Attack as more of a AOE down Smash attack.

That’s how it was used in Hyrule Warriors if I remember correctly but it’s been a while. I think he slammed the ground causing a big sphere of dark energy that damaged everyone around him.

 

[Oracle Link]

I love how weve reached a point where everyone wants kirby and zelda Newcomers compare that too like 4 were a ton of people bullied Zelda and Kirby Fans saying that they "HaVe EvErYoNe ImPoRtAnT!"
while wishing for waluigi and some random pokemon!

 

[Gengar84]

I love how weve reached a point where everyone wants kirby and zelda Newcomers compare that too like 4 were a ton of people bullied Zelda and Kirby Fans saying that they "HaVe EvErYoNe ImPoRtAnT!"
while wishing for waluigi and some random pokemon!

If we were going to use that argument, there would barely be any first party newcomers at all left. At some point, we have most of our bases covered for the most iconic characters and we should be more open to including more supporting cast members or characters from less iconic properties. I think it’s well past time we get at least one new completely original Zelda character as we haven’t had a truly unique one since Melee. As for Kirby, Bandana Dee would be cool and make a lot of sense but my dream pick will always be Bugzzy.

 

[DarthEnderX]

...He does need a reflector the most, though. Oof.

It's his most famous move!

There’s a, uh, very specific part of Ganondorf’s final battle that is just… incredible. If they don’t recreate some part of it in Smash I’ll be disappointed.

The Demon Dragon could definitely be a new Final Smash for him. But I think a bigger disappointment would be not having Dragon Zelda as a Stage.

If we were going to use that argument, there would barely be any first party newcomers at all left.

Proposal accepted.

 

[Louie G.]

I love how weve reached a point where everyone wants kirby and zelda Newcomers compare that too like 4 were a ton of people bullied Zelda and Kirby Fans saying that they "HaVe EvErYoNe ImPoRtAnT!"
while wishing for waluigi and some random pokemon!

Ghirahim and Bandana Dee were very frequent suggestions for Smash 4, to a lesser extent Impa / Tingle would pop up too. Having every “important” character was rarely a means of putting Zelda down, a series that most people would love to see expanded upon, but was a pessimistic outlook on the way the series has been represented thus far. As far as Kirby goes, Dee was and continues to be the most sensible option. If anything probably moreso today.

The only “random Pokemon” people were asking for during Smash 4 was Mewtwo. Many wanted Mewtwo so much in fact, myself included, that we used their new Mega form as an excuse for them being the new generation ‘mon. Mario split its attention between Toad / Jr / Rosa / Waluigi and I feel like it wasn’t til Ultimate that Waluigi really became the breakout star.

In summary though, it’s never been unpopular to ask for more content from Zelda or Kirby. They’re just in a weird situation of having new villains or supporting characters every game but sticking closely to their core characters. At this point though, not a whole lot of excuses to keep Bandana Dee out - objectively Kirby does have someone important missing, now the defacto Player 2 - but I don’t have too much faith myself.

Really Kirby fans just get bullied from the nature of the character, less so than the simple idea of expanding on the series… and I think people are meaner about it today in a post-Ultimate DLC spoils world than they ever were before. People want to stay ignorant of who Bandana Dee is and their role in the series and it makes him an easy target. There are Kirby characters I certainly want more but it’s hard not to acknowledge that he is the only real choice for a fourth character.

 

[Gengar84]

Ghirahim and Bandana Dee were very frequent suggestions for Smash 4, to a lesser extent Impa / Tingle would pop up too. Having every “important” character was rarely a means of putting Zelda down, a series that most people would love to see expanded upon, but was a pessimistic outlook on the way the series has been represented thus far. As far as Kirby goes, Dee was and continues to be the most sensible option. If anything probably moreso today.

The only “random Pokemon” people were asking for during Smash 4 was Mewtwo. Many wanted Mewtwo so much in fact, myself included, that we used their new Mega form as an excuse for them being the new generation ‘mon. Mario split its attention between Toad / Jr / Rosa / Waluigi and I feel like it wasn’t til Ultimate that Waluigi really became the breakout star.

In summary though, it’s never been unpopular to ask for more content from Zelda or Kirby. They’re just in a weird situation of having new villains or supporting characters every game but sticking closely to their core characters. At this point though, not a whole lot of excuses to keep Bandana Dee out - objectively Kirby does have someone important missing, now the defacto Player 2 - but I don’t have too much faith myself.

Hey, I’ll always advocate for random Pokémon. Most of my favorites aren’t starters or cover legendaries so they’d qualify as random by that metric. I don’t know the exact popularity ranking but I’d even guess that most of my absolute favorites beyond Gengar aren’t particularly popular as a whole. Here’s just a few of my top favorites (most have very little chance of any).

Gen 1: Gengar, Electabuzz, Kabutops
Gen 2: Houndoom, Gligar, Sneasel
Gen 3: Zangoose, Seviper, Deoxys
Gen 4: Gliscor, Toxicroak, Garchomp
Gen 5: Cofagrigus, Zoroark, Kyurem
Gen 6: Clawitzer, Malamar, Noivern
Gen 7: Golisopod, Lycanroc, Salazzle
Gen 8: Orbeetle, Toxtricity, Corviknight
Gen 9: Great Tusk, Ceruledge, Lokix
Other: Sneasler, Hisuian Zoroark

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That’s how it was used in Hyrule Warriors if I remember correctly but it’s been a while. I think he slammed the ground causing a big sphere of dark energy that damaged everyone around him.

It was. I had to take a while to look it up. He does use Warlock Punch too(combined with the animations of DMV, though to say the least, function-wise, it's just basically closer to aesthetics, heh).

But really, I love the silliness he has. Like holding the Magical Key and 8-Bit Small Keys from Zelda 1 as possible weapons. XD It's part of why Toon Ganondorf stand out the most to me for an additional Ganondorf version. Another is he's a super agile warrior etc, so it feels like DMV fits that particular variant well(though he'd fit Pig Ganon as well, but I feel he has better options like his Blazing Bats~).

 

[Louie G.]

Hey, I’ll always advocate for random Pokémon.

I should have specified that I meant moreso that Mewtwo was the only consistently agreed upon, prominently supported choice. Personally I really wanted Hawlucha (my favorite Pokemon) around that time too and felt like they'd be a perfect option if they wanted to go for a real Gen 6 newbie. I saw several options thrown around about updated Trainers with Kalos or Hoenn Pokemon and an increase in discussion for Grovyle and Sceptile later on.

Naturally Greninja happened after that, and I like Greninja a lot. Hell, Incineroar ended up adopting a lot of what I'd have wanted to see from Hawlucha anyway so at the end of the day I'm pretty happy with where we are. Been reflecting on it recently and I think Incineroar might outright be my favorite Pokemon on the roster now.

 

[Gengar84]

I should have specified that I meant moreso that Mewtwo was the only consistently agreed upon, prominently supported choice. Personally I really wanted Hawlucha (my favorite Pokemon) around that time too and felt like they'd be a perfect option if they wanted to go for a real Gen 6 newbie. I saw several options thrown around about updated Trainers with Kalos or Hoenn Pokemon and an increase in discussion for Grovyle and Sceptile later on.

Naturally Greninja happened after that, and I like Greninja a lot. Hell, Incineroar ended up adopting a lot of what I'd have wanted to see from Hawlucha anyway so at the end of the day I'm pretty happy with where we ended up. Been reflecting on it recently and I think Incineroar might outright be my favorite Pokemon on the roster now.

Yeah, Greninja is definitely one of the coolest modern starters. I used to be kind of mixed on Incineroar but Smash has really helped it grow on me. As for Hawlucha, I was a bit disappointed to see it get passed up in Pokken in favor of Pikachu Libre. Hawlucha would have given us a similar moveset and a new cool Pokémon instead of a second Pikachu.

 

[jamesster445]

I really wish this thread could stop focusing on characters and franchises for once and focus more on how the next Smash could add to or change the core gameplay. Frankly, there's more interesting discussion on core gameplay changes over new characters since focusing on the latter makes discussion stale and the franchise also stale.

I've been in the camp that thinks everyone in the roster should have a Shield Special. I also think that everyone should essentially have heavy normals like Ryu and Ken, preferably through a third attack button. I think these would go a lot in not only expanding gameplay but also freshening up existing fighters.

 

[Kirbeh]

I've been in the camp that thinks everyone in the roster should have a Shield Special. I also think that everyone should essentially have heavy normals like Ryu and Ken, preferably through a third attack button. I think these would go a lot in not only expanding gameplay but also freshening up existing fighters.

Another alternative that I think could work would be to move Smash attacks onto their own button and add more tilts. Some characters could retain the ability to angle forward tilt while others could have access to new attacks using the diagonal inputs. Basically a Smash version of command normals (even though everything in Smash is technically a command normal...)

Aside from that, more shield and back specials would be nice too.

I'd also like for traditional tiered supers like SF and MvC. Give everyone a level 1-3. Then they could also go back to having wackier unbalanced final Smashes for casual play.

Current FS's are still not well suited for competitive play, but also in many cases less fun that previous offerings.

 

[Gengar84]

I can see a good case for both sides here. On one hand, more options for movesets are always fun in my view but there is also an appeal on keeping some characters simple. I feel like part of what draws people to Smash is the relative simplicity of its gameplay and being able to just pick up and play without much existing knowledge. I think there is plenty of room for more complex characters and mechanics but I’m not sure updating everyone to that level is the way to go. Some characters work fine with simpler movesets in my opinion. I do really enjoy playing Kazuya and Terry so I think I’ll be fine either way but it might present challenges to new fans to the series.

 

[Kirbeh]

I can see a good case for both sides here. On one hand, more options for movesets are always fun in my view but there is also an appeal on keeping some characters simple. I feel like part of what draws people to Smash is the relative simplicity of its gameplay and being able to just pick up and play without much existing knowledge. I think there is plenty of room for more complex characters and mechanics but I’m not sure updating everyone to that level is the way to go. Some characters work fine with simpler movesets in my opinion. I do really enjoy playing Kazuya and Terry so I think I’ll be fine either way but it might present challenges to new fans to the series.

If anything I'd say the bigger challenge would be for older players rather than newcomers. Older fans will be more averse to the change, while people just getting started will be introduced to the new control as the norm.

Overall though I don't think it'd be too much of an increase in complexity.

For example, we'll use as our examples.

For everyone, this would mean having the new button for Smash attacks, and with that a new set of aerials to work with too.

's kit would essentially remain untouched (outside of a couple potential move changes here and there like you already tend to see from game to game.) All this means for Mario is having a couple new moves in his arsenal.

For , who doesn't have an angled F-Tilt, this would simply open the option of having 1-2 more attacks mapped to those diagonal inputs. He could have the forward up, forward down, both or neither. It'd be a case-by-case basis much like command normals in other fighters.

The biggest change here would actually be for characters like who already have more moves than the standard. In his case more moves would be remapped simply because there are more moves in his kit.

So, standing neutral on the new Smash button would be his roundhouse. His Smash attacks would retain their inputs, just moved over to the new button. High angle tilt would now be the short uppercut. Low angle tilt would be crouching medium. Low angle Smash would be collarbone breaker, etc. Or to briefly touch on more back specials, I think it'd be neat if they altered Joudan's properties and made into a back special while giving him solar plexus strike as a new smash attack. Either that or give him Hashogeki from 6.

 

[Gengar84]

If anything I'd say the bigger challenge would be for older players rather than newcomers. Older fans will be more averse to the change, while people just getting started will be introduced to the new control as the norm.

Overall though I don't think it'd be too much of an increase in complexity.

For example, we'll use as our examples.

For everyone, this would mean having the new button for Smash attacks, and with that a new set of aerials to work with too.

's kit would essentially remain untouched (outside of a couple potential move changes here and there like you already tend to see from game to game.) All this means for Mario is having a couple new moves in his arsenal.

For , who doesn't have an angled F-Tilt, this would simply open the option of having 1-2 more attacks mapped to those diagonal inputs. He could have the forward up, forward down, both or neither. It'd be a case-by-case basis much like command normals in other fighters.

The biggest change here would actually be for characters like who already have more moves than the standard. In his case more moves would be remapped simply because there are more moves in his kit.

So, standing neutral on the new Smash button would be his roundhouse. His Smash attacks would retain their inputs, just moved over to the new button. High angle tilt would now be the short uppercut. Low angle tilt would be crouching medium. Low angle Smash would be collarbone breaker, etc. Or to briefly touch on more back specials, I think it'd be neat if they altered Joudan's properties and made into a back special while giving him solar plexus strike as a new smash attack. Either that or give him Hashogeki from 6.

When you put it that way, it doesn’t seem so bad. I think something like this could be pretty cool. I do agree that they should try to balance the final smashes a bit better. I always play with the smash meter on because I love the concept but some moves are still a bit strong while others can be near useless at times.

 

[Will]

When you put it that way, it doesn’t seem so bad. I think something like this could be pretty cool. I do agree h they should try to balance the final smashes a bit better. I always play with the smash meter on because I love the concept but some moves are still a bit strong while others can be near useless at times.

Once you turn on Smash meter, all you have to do is pick or , and you’ve almost already guaranteed your chances of winning.

 

[Gengar84]

Once you turn on Smash meter, all you have to do is pick or , and you’ve almost already guaranteed your chances of winning.

Yeah, I’m amazed out how strong Zelda’s final smash pulls you into it. Still, I think I’ll take any of those over Brawl Sonic, Fox, and Falco who often got two KO’s off one Final Smash in my experience.

 

[Kirbeh]

When you put it that way, it doesn’t seem so bad. I think something like this could be pretty cool. I do agree h they should try to balance the final smashes a bit better. I always play with the smash meter on because I love the concept but some moves are still a bit strong while others can be near useless at times.

I honestly liked final smashes more when they were unbalanced chaos. What I had in mind was more to bring back stuff like the playable Giga Bowser, Super Sonic, Landmaster, etc. and revert final smashes to being Smash Ball exclusive.

Then you get more standard supers ala SF/MvC/KoF/>insert 2D fighter here< with 3 levels that are tied to an actual meter.

This would be a good place to fit in some of the extra moves that fans often to try to squeeze into movesets. So, with for example, I think you could make the ground punch a level 1 super. This means you don't have to scale back the range/power as much as if you tried to make it a normal or special move. Plus, it could still have an aerial version to match its use in Ocarina of Time. Level 2 could be the volley of multiple energy balls, as a multiple, semi-homing projectiles are much more justifiable as a super than a special. And lastly level 3 would be your cinematic super. Pick your choice of transformation or large-scale attack for that one.

 

[Gengar84]

I honestly liked final smashes more when they were unbalanced chaos. What I had in mind was more to bring back stuff like the playable Giga Bowser, Super Sonic, Landmaster, etc. and revert final smashes to being Smash Ball exclusive.

Then you get more standard supers ala SF/MvC/KoF/>insert 2D fighter here< with 3 levels that are tied to an actual meter.

This would be a good place to fit in some of the extra moves that fans often to try to squeeze into movesets. So, with for examples, I think you could make the ground punch a level 1 super. This means you don't have to scale back the range/power as much as if you tried to make it a normal or special move. Plus, it could still have an aerial version to match its use in Ocarina of Time. Level 2 could be the volley of multiple energy balls, as a multiple, semi-homing projectiles are much more justifiable as a super than a special. And lastly level 3 would be your cinematic super. Pick your choice of transformation or large-scale attack for that one.

I do sometimes miss the more interactive final smashes from Brawl. The only problem I had is the transformation smashes always led to your opponent running away the whole time so it wasn’t as fun in practice. I loved the concept though. The different levels of Smash meter do sound like a fun idea I’d be down for though.

 

[Kirbeh]

I do sometimes miss the more interactive final smashes from Brawl. The only problem I had is the transformation smashes always led to your opponent running away the whole time so it wasn’t as fun in practice. I loved the concept though. The different levels of Smash meter do sound like a fun idea I’d be down for though.

I mean, what else were you supposed to against Super Sonic and the Landmaster? You can't exactly fight back.

That was part of the fun imo, the Final Smashes changed the dynamic of the fight rather being a brief cutscene. All of a sudden one player has immense power and can trample the rest while they do their best to survive. Unless you were playing on a big stage like Hyrule Castle, getting camped usually wasn't a problem. Plus, with the fact that most transformations were both invincible and overpowered. chasing opponents down was kind of the only work you had to put in.

Cinematic supers on the other hand are more acceptable as standard level 3s like in other fighters because instead of getting it by chance via Smash Ball or building it as the only use of the current meter, it's something you have to build towards while preserving that meter and not using it on a level 1 or 2 which might be preferable during certain moments. It's your reward for conserving a resource. That makes cinematic supers less common during matches, which also helps them not get so old so fast like how FS happy current Smash is.

 

[Gengar84]

I mean, what else were you supposed to against Super Sonic and the Landmaster? You can't exactly fight back.

That was part of the fun imo, the Final Smashes changed the dynamic of the fight rather being a brief cutscene. All of a sudden one player has immense power and can trample the rest while they do their best to survive. Unless you were playing on a big stage like Hyrule Castle, getting camped usually wasn't a problem. Plus, with the fact that most transformations were both invincible and overpowered. chasing opponents down was kind of the only work you had to put in.

Cinematic supers on the other hand are more acceptable as standard level 3s like in other fighters because instead of getting it by chance via Smash Ball or building it as the only use of the current meter, it's something you have to build towards while preserving that meter and not using it on a level 1 or 2 which might be preferable during certain moments. It's your reward for conserving a resource. That makes cinematic supers less common during matches, which also helps them not get so old so fast like how FS happy current Smash is.

Yeah I’m not blaming the other player on running because that was really the only option. It just got kind of boring after a while. I was more referring to some of the less powerful transformation characters where most of the time, it felt like you just chased someone around for a bit without really accomplishing anything. That might just be me being bad at the game though lol.