Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

Hello, hello, SEGA news incoming

SEGASammy just released a new integrated report:

https://www.segasammy.co.jp/cms/wp-content/uploads/pdf/en/ir/ir_2023_web_all_e.pdf

A lot of it is them talking about the success of Sonic Frontiers, as well as expanding the IP to other mediums and having their other properties follow suit, as well as the same stuff they've been talking about in relation to IP revivals and how they wanna leverage these old properties to appease longtime fans, especially overseas (cited examples include Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Space Channel 5, Golden Axe, OutRun, After Burner, etc) and on a related note, they keep blabbing on about that utterly wretched "Super Game" intitiative of theirs, where they keep splurging ungodly amounts of manpower and budget on live-service AAA stuff no one wants (including corporate bastardizations of the aforementioned old IP) and holding that up as The Second Coming Of SEGA. Yeah I'm not a fan of this.

...Aaaaaaaaanyway, what matters here is this little image here. This is a list of what SEGA considers their "major", most successful in-house properties:
View attachment 380011
This is the same list as last year, but it continues to be an interesting resource. In case you're wondering, Aladdin, Beast King and Chain Chronicle are pachinko and mobile titles, so you don't need to worry about those. That leaves Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Sakura Wars, Phantasy Star and Virtua Fighter as "core" SEGA properties that they consider to be marquee titles for them.

Out of those......as much as it pains me to say it, I think we're gonna have to cross out Sakura Wars for the time being. I love the series and think it's absolutely deserving, but it has a more lopsided regional presence than any of the others, is the least-selling of the 5, and has gone through a bit of a rough patch lately with no new game currently in sight. If we got a new thing and it gets localized again and does well, I would put it back on the table, but as it stands, it's not looking good.

That would leave the other 4: Puyo, Yakuza, VF and Phantasy Star. And I think that's a pretty good pool of what SEGA stuff one should look out for next time - these are what the company considers their "key" properties.

There's also an "acqusitions" section which includes Persona, SMT, Total War and Football Manager (I think only the Atlus stuff is really in contention here), plus a "licensed franchises" section that doesn't reaaaaaaaaally matter to our conversation, but in case you're curious, it's Project DIVA and Fist of the North Star.

Anyway yeah dassit

Do they mention more minor IPs?

I know Bayonetta is a tiny series and is mostly propped up by Nintendo, but I'm curious to see how many units the franchise has sold.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Do they mention more minor IPs?

I know Bayonetta is a tiny series and is mostly propped up by Nintendo, but I'm curious to see how many units the franchise has sold.

Shush, or Kai the Hedgefox will do a monologue on why Bayo is underrated and love exalted.

 

[Ivander]

Hello, hello, SEGA news incoming

SEGASammy just released a new integrated report:

https://www.segasammy.co.jp/cms/wp-content/uploads/pdf/en/ir/ir_2023_web_all_e.pdf

A lot of it is them talking about the success of Sonic Frontiers, as well as expanding the IP to other mediums and having their other properties follow suit, as well as the same stuff they've been talking about in relation to IP revivals and how they wanna leverage these old properties to appease longtime fans, especially overseas (cited examples include Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Space Channel 5, Golden Axe, OutRun, After Burner, etc) and on a related note, they keep blabbing on about that utterly wretched "Super Game" intitiative of theirs, where they keep splurging ungodly amounts of manpower and budget on live-service AAA stuff no one wants (including corporate bastardizations of the aforementioned old IP) and holding that up as The Second Coming Of SEGA. Yeah I'm not a fan of this.

...Aaaaaaaaanyway, what matters here is this little image here. This is a list of what SEGA considers their "major", most successful in-house properties:
View attachment 380011
This is the same list as last year, but it continues to be an interesting resource. In case you're wondering, Aladdin, Beast King and Chain Chronicle are pachinko and mobile titles, so you don't need to worry about those. That leaves Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Sakura Wars, Phantasy Star and Virtua Fighter as "core" SEGA properties that they consider to be marquee titles for them.

Out of those......as much as it pains me to say it, I think we're gonna have to cross out Sakura Wars for the time being. I love the series and think it's absolutely deserving, but it has a more lopsided regional presence than any of the others, is the least-selling of the 5, and has gone through a bit of a rough patch lately with no new game currently in sight. If we got a new thing and it gets localized again and does well, I would put it back on the table, but as it stands, it's not looking good.

That would leave the other 4: Puyo, Yakuza, VF and Phantasy Star. And I think that's a pretty good pool of what SEGA stuff one should look out for next time - these are what the company considers their "key" properties.

There's also an "acqusitions" section which includes Persona, SMT, Total War and Football Manager (I think only the Atlus stuff is really in contention here), plus a "licensed franchises" section that doesn't reaaaaaaaaally matter to our conversation, but in case you're curious, it's Project DIVA and Fist of the North Star.

Anyway yeah dassit

Of course 2 of the series are mainly Pachinko games with next to no info aside from finding around 2-3 screenshots involving the Ps2 game for Aladdin, but otherwise, no videos and etc.

That said, at least I did hear about Chain Chronicle, as I saw it earlier around a week or two ago.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Shush, or Kai the Hedgefox will do a monologue on why Bayo is underrated and love exalted.

Literally what are you talking about?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Literally what are you talking about?

Some dude that is infamous in the "Your Reaction If..." thread, and he writes bibles on what characters are likeable and who are despised.
He has accounts on many pages, and he makes pixel arts.
he also thinks Yu-Gi-Oh! is owned by Konami

 

[Quillion]

I really wish this thread could stop focusing on characters and franchises for once and focus more on how the next Smash could add to or change the core gameplay. Frankly, there's more interesting discussion on core gameplay changes over new characters since focusing on the latter makes discussion stale and the franchise also stale.

 

[Louie G.]

Hello, hello, SEGA news incoming

SEGASammy just released a new integrated report:
https://www.segasammy.co.jp/cms/wp-content/uploads/pdf/en/ir/ir_2023_web_all_e.pdf

Gotta love seeing Puyo Puyo continuing to sit high at a distant #2. Gives me some faith again that it will be on top of the Sega list once the Smash conversation arises once again. Pretty interesting to note that it's only factoring in the sales post-Sega buyout too... that doesn't even account for the popularity of Puyo Puyo Tsuu during the 90s!

I hope that more people are becoming aware of how important and successful the series is despite its relative modesty in the west. And hopefully over the next few years we may see some new efforts in the series come overseas? I wonder if we'll be fortunate enough to get that new Madou Monogatari title. And I'm still waiting for them to do a proper release of Puyo Sun over here... just dump it on NSO at this point.

 

[Kirbeh]

I really wish this thread could stop focusing on characters and franchises for once and focus more on how the next Smash could add to or change the core gameplay. Frankly, there's more interesting discussion on core gameplay changes over new characters since focusing on the latter makes discussion stale and the franchise also stale.

That would require more people to be open to big gameplay changes. Changing the core gameplay would require a more extensive reworking/rebalancing of the cast. Either way it'd get looped back to characters because such a rework would likely result in a lower headcount.

Granted that's not everyone's stance on the matter. Most people are simply happy with how Smash currently plays so changing it up doesn't seem necessary.

Bear in mind, people like you and I who want significant changes to both characters and core gameplay are in the minority.

A few minor tweaks are likely to be entertained, but character discussion is kind of this threads bread and butter so I don't think the conversation would last very long. A dedicated thread for the subject would likely be better if it doesn't exist already.

 

[Quillion]

That would require more people to be open to big gameplay changes. Changing the core gameplay would require a more extensive reworking/rebalancing of the cast. Either way it'd get looped back to characters because such a rework would likely result in a lower headcount.

It shouldn't be too big of an exit if they just clean up most of the cast's assets and animations for the next game. Some would still have to go because of the refinement job, granted, but that's still a big time-saver.

 

[Kirbeh]

It shouldn't be too big of an exit if they just clean up most of the cast's assets and animations for the next game. Some would still have to go because of the refinement job, granted, but that's still a big time-saver.

I mean, I'm not opposed to an even more ground up rework of Smash as a whole. I was more referring to the involvement of cuts leading to the conversation being moved away from gameplay and back to characters.

It'd be an interesting topic to discuss, I simply don't think it'd last in this thread specifically.

 

[Quillion]

It'd be an interesting topic to discuss, I simply don't think it'd last in this thread specifically.

I know it won't, but I had to get my statement of weariness of inclusion discussion off my chest.

 

[Kirbeh]

I know it won't, but I had to get my statement of weariness of inclusion discussion off my chest.

If you want to start it off though, we may as well take the topic as far as it can go while the thread is relatively empty. What are the changes you had in mind?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I would add a normal ****ing classic mode back in.

 

[Kirbeh]

I would add a normal ****ing classic mode back in.

I honestly like the personalized arcade ladder version we got in Ultimate, but it does lose replayabilty by being the same every time. I think it'd be neat if they turned the current one into a proper arcade "story" with some beginning/ending slides at least to keep it simple. Then we can have a broader classic mode again on top of that.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I really wish this thread could stop focusing on characters and franchises for once and focus more on how the next Smash could add to or change the core gameplay. Frankly, there's more interesting discussion on core gameplay changes over new characters since focusing on the latter makes discussion stale and the franchise also stale.

Currently, I have no issues with the way it plays, so that's why I don't discuss any changes to the gameplay. It's fine the way it is.

If you want to talk about gameplay, go right on ahead but that really doesn't interest me as much as characters, as there are still some I would like to see in Smash.

 

[RodNutTakin]

My qualms with gameplay are very miniscule that I can just list them right here (Reduce universal input buffer, make platforming a bit less sticky, add an unranked version of Quickplay, make Assist Trophies not feel super overpowered at times). There really isn't anything I want added in terms of mechanics.

 

[Simnm]

I don't think this is a fair comparison, FNAF is not Minecraft. Skepticism surrounding Steve often stemmed from whether or not he was a "true" protagonist rather than whether or not the series warranted representation (most people agreed on at least a stage). This may be more comparable if people were requesting the security guard, but Freddy Fazbear is a pretty identifiable character and obviously the one we would be getting in this scenario.

More importantly though Minecraft is one of the biggest and most widely persisting games in the world. It is popular in every country and played by every age group. FNAF is very successful, but to my knowledge I don't believe that success has reached Japanese shores to the same extent. I think a Mii Costume would be a serviceable nod to the popularity of the franchise but I don't believe it would outrank many of the other western or indie characters who have seen more overseas success and / or stronger fan support over the years for that spot on the roster.

That being said, I personally am not a FNAF fan but I have some morbid curiosity about how they'd choose to handle a playable character. I think Freddy would be pretty fascinating if not just to see how they uniquely animate a possessed animatronic. We have a couple robotic characters but there's a pretty apparent difference between say, ROB and Freddy. So idk how I'd feel about it but I think it'd be interesting.



To each their own, but I think if it was designed properly a resource management based kit for a Resident Evil character would be great at emphasizing the tense, constantly on your toes flavor that defines much of the genre. It's "scary" in that more abstract anxiety inducing way, the sentiment would be there. High risk / reward for say... a handgun with capacity for strong kills a la Wonderwing where you only have a few shots to take, and once you run out of ammo you have to close in physically as a desperate last resort.

Fnaf is pretty popular in japan
Also like steve is iconic he is literraly in the boxart of minecraft
And yeah i feel like freddy represents the horror franchise better since he is actually someone you are supposed to be scared of in the game

 

[smashkirby]

I'll say this much, if there was EVER a time for Melee's style of Classic Mode to return to Smash, Ultimate was definitely it.

Like, I still stand by the opinion that Ultimate was SO NOT the time to be doing the whole route-based thing Classic was trying to accomplish.

 

[Geno Boost]

Hello, hello, SEGA news incoming

SEGASammy just released a new integrated report:

https://www.segasammy.co.jp/cms/wp-content/uploads/pdf/en/ir/ir_2023_web_all_e.pdf

A lot of it is them talking about the success of Sonic Frontiers, as well as expanding the IP to other mediums and having their other properties follow suit, as well as the same stuff they've been talking about in relation to IP revivals and how they wanna leverage these old properties to appease longtime fans, especially overseas (cited examples include Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Space Channel 5, Golden Axe, OutRun, After Burner, etc) and on a related note, they keep blabbing on about that utterly wretched "Super Game" intitiative of theirs, where they keep splurging ungodly amounts of manpower and budget on live-service AAA stuff no one wants (including corporate bastardizations of the aforementioned old IP) and holding that up as The Second Coming Of SEGA. Yeah I'm not a fan of this.

...Aaaaaaaaanyway, what matters here is this little image here. This is a list of what SEGA considers their "major", most successful in-house properties:
View attachment 380011
This is the same list as last year, but it continues to be an interesting resource. In case you're wondering, Aladdin, Beast King and Chain Chronicle are pachinko and mobile titles, so you don't need to worry about those. That leaves Puyo Puyo, Yakuza, Sakura Wars, Phantasy Star and Virtua Fighter as "core" SEGA properties that they consider to be marquee titles for them.

Out of those......as much as it pains me to say it, I think we're gonna have to cross out Sakura Wars for the time being. I love the series and think it's absolutely deserving, but it has a more lopsided regional presence than any of the others, is the least-selling of the 5, and has gone through a bit of a rough patch lately with no new game currently in sight. If we got a new thing and it gets localized again and does well, I would put it back on the table, but as it stands, it's not looking good.

That would leave the other 4: Puyo, Yakuza, VF and Phantasy Star. And I think that's a pretty good pool of what SEGA stuff one should look out for next time - these are what the company considers their "key" properties.

There's also an "acqusitions" section which includes Persona, SMT, Total War and Football Manager (I think only the Atlus stuff is really in contention here), plus a "licensed franchises" section that doesn't reaaaaaaaaally matter to our conversation, but in case you're curious, it's Project DIVA and Fist of the North Star.

Anyway yeah dassit

Isn’t that list outdated though? I don’t see angry birds in the list now that sega bought rovio

 

[DarthEnderX]

i am curious to ask since Microsoft is part of smash how do you think Microsoft Entertainment Pack series can be represented?

Literally the only correct answer is the SkiFree yeti as an Assist Trophy.

 

[Arcanir]

Well first, make the SkiFree Yeti an Assist Trophy, whether given a full HD re-imagining or has it's original graphics, like Sheriff.

Original graphics, so that Smash fans from every generation can feel the pain of having their character randomly eaten by a pixelated monster.

 

[Speed Weed]

Do they mention more minor IPs?

I know Bayonetta is a tiny series and is mostly propped up by Nintendo, but I'm curious to see how many units the franchise has sold.

In terms of units sold.....no, they don't. The most there is in terms of "minor IP" is the aforementioned examples of old stuff they could revive

Isn’t that list outdated though? I don’t see angry birds in the list now that sega bought rovio

They talk plenty about the Rovio acquisition in other parts of the report

 

[fogbadge]

he also thinks Yu-Gi-Oh! is owned by Konami

they were involved at some point weren't they? i seem to recall the konami logo on the backs of cards

 

[DarthEnderX]

Well first, make the SkiFree Yeti an Assist Trophy, whether given a full HD re-imagining or has it's original graphics, like Sheriff.

He shouldn't use his original graphics. But he should still look like a stick figure.

Original graphics, so that Smash fans from every generation can feel the pain of having their character randomly eaten by a pixelated monster.

I mean...that is literally Pac-Man's Final Smash.

 

[Oracle Link]

I'm surprised that this hasn't been posted yet:

Cutting toon link in favor of potentially rauru is an offensive choice especially cause that means everyones from TOTK!
Impa AOC is somewhat more on the acceptable side but toon link should be the first zelda DLC!

 

[Gengar84]

Cutting toon link in favor of potentially rauru is an offensive choice especially cause that means everyones from TOTK!
Impa AOC is somewhat more on the acceptable side but toon link should be the first zelda DLC!

I think Rauru would be a cool choice of a character but I agree that I think it’s better to represent the series as a whole rather than just making everything from the most recent game. Rauru would be a great way to show off several mechanics from Tears of the Kingdom but he shouldn’t come at the expense of representation from the older games. Toon Link should be relatively easy to keep around since his moveset is so close to adult Link that I don’t see much a reason to cut him.

That’s another reason I’m more in favor of Hyrule Warriors/Skyward Sword Impa rather than Age of Calamity. Besides just my personal preference for that version, I think it would give us a bigger variety for series representation.

If I had my choice, we’d keep all the Zelda characters we currently have and add Rauru and HW/SS Impa. If we were going to cut a character, I think Young Link makes more sense to cut than Toon Link since the latter has had way more appearances in the series. As much as I love the character, I could understand if they cut Sheik as well since she’s only appeared in one game. I wouldn’t be happy about it but I could at least see the logic.

Finally, I’d love if we got alts for all the versions of the Zelda characters from different games. It would be great if everyone could keep playing as their favorite versions of each character. That would be kind of impossible with Toon Link and Zelda so I think it makes sense to keep Toon Link as his own separate character. WW Ganondorf could definitely work as an alt with a few adjustments as he’s done in Hyrule Warriors and Ultimate mods.

 

[Oracle Link]

I think Rauru would be a cool choice of a character but I agree that I think it’s better to represent the series as a whole rather than just making everything from the most recent game. Rauru would be a great way to show off several mechanics from Tears of the Kingdom but he shouldn’t come at the expense of representation from the older games. Toon Link should be relatively easy to keep around since his moveset is so close to adult Link that I don’t see much a reason to cut him.

That’s another reason I’m more in favor of Hyrule Warriors/Skyward Sword Impa rather than Age of Calamity. Besides just my personal preference for that version, I think it would give us a bigger variety for series representation.

If I had my choice, we’d keep all the Zelda characters we currently have and add Rauru and HW/SS Impa. If we were going to cut a character, I think Young Link makes more sense to cut than Toon Link since the latter has had way more appearances in the series. As much as I love the character, I could understand if they cut Sheik as well since she’s only appeared in one game. I wouldn’t be happy about it but I could at least see the logic.

Finally, I’d love if we got alts for all the versions of the Zelda characters from different games. It would be great if everyone could keep playing as their favorite versions of each character. That would be kind of impossible with Toon Link and Zelda so I think it makes sense to keep Toon Link as his own separate character. WW Ganondorf could definitely work as an alt with a few adjustments as he’s done in Hyrule Warriors and Ultimate mods.

So Basically:

Spoiler: ZELDA SMASH 6

There would be a colour editor and some costumes might be DLC and impa/ Sheik have a new shared moveset with weapons
And duh G Dorf too

Spoiler: LINK

OOT
Fierce Deity
TP
SS
BOTW (Champion)
BOTW (Tunic of the wild)
TOTK (Champion)
TOTK (Archaic)

Spoiler: TOON LINK

Normal
Outset
Engineer
Young Toon Link
and resized Toy Link

Spoiler: Zelda

ALTTP
OOT
TP
SS
BOTW (RESEARCHER)
BOTW (WHITE DRESS)
TOTK (RESEARCHER)
TOTK (ZONAI DRESS)

Spoiler: GANONDORF

HAS TOTK BODYTYPE
PIG GANON
OOT
TP
WW
TOTK
TOTK (Demon King)

Spoiler: Impa/ Sheik

Impa and sheiks size is based on OOT because SS has weird proportions
IMPA OOT
IMPA SS
IMPA AOC
SHEIK OOT
SHEIK "BOTW"

This is the maximum ammount of costumes the cursive/ Underscore ones would be more realistic!

 

[Gengar84]

So Basically:

Spoiler: ZELDA SMASH 6

View attachment 380026
There would be a colour editor and some costumes might be DLC and impa/ Sheik have a new shared moveset with weapons
And duh G Dorf too

Spoiler: LINK

OOT
Fierce Deity
TP
SS
BOTW (Champion)
BOTW (Tunic of the wild)
TOTK (Champion)
TOTK (Archaic)

Spoiler: TOON LINK

Normal
Outset
Engineer
Young Toon Link
and resized Toy Link

Spoiler: Zelda

ALTTP
OOT
TP
SS
BOTW (RESEARCHER)
BOTW (WHITE DRESS)
TOTK (RESEARCHER)
TOTK (ZONAI DRESS)

Spoiler: GANONDORF

HAS TOTK BODYTYPE
PIG GANON
OOT
TP
WW
TOTK
TOTK (Demon King)

Spoiler: Impa/ Sheik

Impa and sheiks size is based on OOT because SS has weird proportions
IMPA OOT
IMPA SS
IMPA AOC
SHEIK OOT
SHEIK "BOTW"

This is the maximum ammount of costumes the cursive/ Underscore ones would be more realistic!

Yeah, I could be happy with that. I’d really miss Sheik as she’s one of my favorite Smash characters but getting true alts for the other characters would make up for it. I feel like there’s enough room to add Rauru on top of that but that looks good for a game with a scaled back roster.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Konami actually does have partial ownership of Yu-Gi-Oh. There's also Studio Dice/Shuisha, and TV Tokyo, as shown by their own copyrights on one of the main websites.

So it's not wrong. It's just not the whole story. I do not remember what owns what, though.

Anyway, to go back to a roster bit, I definitely wouldn't cut any of the Zelda characters(though I get only having one child Link), as they all stand out well. I also don't honestly see TOTK Ganondorf replacing the current Ganondorf unless it's just to reuse the animations(which only works well if their bodyshape is nearly the same. New moves is one thing, but he needs to still be able to properly perform the moveset to actually be in).

I also don't see a giant reboot happening either way where it's just bigger moveset changes and some cuts. Like, one thing is a full actual reboot. It's not impossible by any means to try a new route and start over. But that's the only way where characters would get severe overhauls to the point of being unrecognizable at all in playstyle. Any smaller stuff happening would still have only minorful changes(even the slightly bigger ones, like Pit or Bowser into 4 still are quite similar to the old one. Or even Ganondorf going into Brawl is still clearly the same core moveset, it's just a different take on his speed, which he suffered from a lot).

Even with a downsizing, it won't be for the sake of just adding others because a one-off exists(hence, Sheik is probably not getting cut either way, unless we're talking about it being downsized just to Link, anyway. The whole thing was Zelda and Sheik were added as a key part of the same character, so losing either of them doesn't really make much sense. Them being separated was more for console reasons, and they still are important together. Yes, it would be nice if Sheik got used more in the main series beyond spin-offs indeed. Doesn't make her any less of a core mainstay). To be honest, I don't see many veterans getting cut outside of mechanics reasons(like how IC's were), being some kind of model swap they don't have time for(Wolf, Lucas, for instance), or 3rd party licensing. Outside of an actual true reboot, anyway(in which case, I doubt Sheik would return. Doesn't really say anything for Impa, though, as she's extremely different from Sheik at this point and if she would have a chance, it's to be a unique addition, not even similar to her beyond a move or two. Not even thematically similar either, so not even the mistake people made about Lucario or Ike. They are barely similar to Mewtwo and Roy, with a move and some similarities to their playstyle and animations here and there. Impa? She's so different it hurts. Hell, she's been changed up so much she wouldn't even be Isabelle-like with what she can do. Not that I couldn't see an Echo of Sheik otherwise, if any of her specific models fit Sheik's current bodyshape, anyway, but a replacement is not realistic at all with how widely different they are).

 

[Gengar84]

Konami actually does have partial ownership of Yu-Gi-Oh. There's also Studio Dice/Shuisha, and TV Tokyo, as shown by their own copyrights on one of the main websites.

So it's not wrong. It's just not the whole story. I do not remember what owns what, though.

Anyway, to go back to a roster bit, I definitely wouldn't cut any of the Zelda characters(though I get only having one child Link), as they all stand out well. I also don't honestly see TOTK Ganondorf replacing the current Ganondorf unless it's just to reuse the animations(which only works well if their bodyshape is nearly the same. New moves is one thing, but he needs to still be able to properly perform the moveset to actually be in).

I also don't see a giant reboot happening either way where it's just bigger moveset changes and some cuts. Like, one thing is a full actual reboot. It's not impossible by any means to try a new route and start over. But that's the only way where characters would get severe overhauls to the point of being unrecognizable at all in playstyle. Any smaller stuff happening would still have only minorful changes(even the slightly bigger ones, like Pit or Bowser into 4 still are quite similar to the old one. Or even Ganondorf going into Brawl is still clearly the same core moveset, it's just a different take on his speed, which he suffered from a lot).

Even with a downsizing, it won't be for the sake of just adding others because a one-off exists(hence, Sheik is probably not getting cut either way, unless we're talking about it being downsized just to Link, anyway. The whole thing was Zelda and Sheik were added as a key part of the same character, so losing either of them doesn't really make much sense. Them being separated was more for console reasons, and they still are important together. Yes, it would be nice if Sheik got used more in the main series beyond spin-offs indeed. Doesn't make her any less of a core mainstay). To be honest, I don't see many veterans getting cut outside of mechanics reasons(like how IC's were), being some kind of model swap they don't have time for(Wolf, Lucas, for instance), or 3rd party licensing. Outside of an actual true reboot, anyway(in which case, I doubt Sheik would return. Doesn't really say anything for Impa, though, as she's extremely different from Sheik at this point and if she would have a chance, it's to be a unique addition, not even similar to her beyond a move or two. Not even thematically similar either, so not even the mistake people made about Lucario or Ike. They are barely similar to Mewtwo and Roy, with a move and some similarities to their playstyle and animations here and there. Impa? She's so different it hurts. Hell, she's been changed up so much she wouldn't even be Isabelle-like with what she can do. Not that I couldn't see an Echo of Sheik otherwise, if any of her specific models fit Sheik's current bodyshape, anyway, but a replacement is not realistic at all with how widely different they are).

Yeah, I hope you’re right about that. I’m not really looking forward to any cuts and I really want to keep Sheik and my other favorites. I agree about Impa being very different than Sheik so they don’t really make much sense as echoes. The one game where both were playable, Impa had two completely unique movesets that were nothing like Sheik’s. Impa’s latest playable appearance in AoC, she had another entirely new moveset that didn’t really share anything with Sheik in Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, I hope you’re right about that. I’m not really looking forward to any cuts and I really want to keep Sheik and my other favorites. I agree about Impa being very different than Sheik so they don’t really make much sense as echoes. The one game where both were playable, Impa had two completely unique movesets that were nothing like Sheik’s. Impa’s latest playable appearance in AoC, she had another entirely new moveset that didn’t really share anything with Sheik in Smash.

HW is a little different as it's a different developer and many are meant to be different. But then you look at the canon games and they're still completely different outside of somewhat in OOT(where Sheik had no actual moves anyway, being taught by Impa).

Like, OOT Impa being a Sheik Echo is fine. This makes sense. But when you look at anything else, they're severely different without even a spin-off taken into account. It's why the idea of a replacement doesn't even make sense. They're not even that similar either. It'd be one thing of Smash itself was constantly replacing characters, and OOT Impa appeared in Brawl with the same moveset, but that's like the only time it kind of could've worked. And obviously that means you had to separate Zelda from her immediately because it's not a thematic similarity. They never fought together. It's just a moveset transfer only, but needs a new Down B. Something that worked better in 4 since Zelda now had a Phantom to work with, heh. Admittedly Zelda could've just taken another move from Link or something? And modified it a bit. That said, Impa didn't really have anything to work with in Brawl on her own by that point, so it's not like it would've worked at all. SS and HW is really when she started to come into her own. And we had a slight bit in the Oracle games with artwork depicting her having super strength, but that doesn't actually make a moveset work and all. Nowadays, she's still reasonably strong either way(Naginata aren't light, after all), and has lots of cool magic. No echo needed. She stands out in so many ways that she's a great unique addition to the roster as a choice~

 

[Gengar84]

Delzethen makes really high quality videos and he clearly puts a lot of work into his rosters but we have very different ideas of what we’d like to see in Smash. I remember he had a video that he shared his idea for a “Wild roster” before Ultimate had its “Everyone is here” trailer and he cut almost all my favorite characters in favor of many that I don’t particularly care about. Not saying he’s wrong for not thinking the same way as me and it’s good that we all have our own opinions but it is a real blow to see all your favorites proposed to be cut like that.

That said, his moveset ideas for individual characters are generally pretty great and I agree with a lot of what he proposes in that department. He plays it a bit too safe with the characters he highlights in my opinion but they’re still a good watch.

 

[Louie G.]

I think Impa is fine, but I don't think I'll ever be convinced she'd be a better choice than someone like Skull Kid or Midna. I understand her prominence through the series, but I feel as if her impact on players hasn't been particularly strong until recently. It's one thing to ask which characters are the most important in a given series, it's another to ask... who do people want to play as? Personally I think in a series like Zelda, which already has its three major characters, it's okay to favor the latter over the former. Impa is just perceived as the technical next step.

I don't want to phrase this in a way that demeans people who actually do want Impa, certainly hope for whoever you like. Honestly I think she looks really cool in the Warriors games, I quite like her Skyward Sword design too. She just doesn't strike me as a particularly exciting choice with either a distinct mechanic / fighting style that demands a moveset or a level of popularity among players that would make her an enticing option to see on a big crossover roster. Sometimes even if something feels like the objective "right" choice it's not necessarily the best one for Smash, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I feel like that's why we've seen characters like Rosalina take precedent over Toad.

 

[Gengar84]

I think Impa is fine, but I don't think I'll ever be convinced she'd be a better choice than someone like Skull Kid or Midna. I understand her prominence through the series, but I feel as if her impact on players hasn't been particularly strong until recently. It's one thing to ask which characters are the most important in a given series, it's another to ask... who do people want to play as? Personally I think in a series like Zelda, which already has its three major characters, it's okay to favor the latter over the former. Impa is just perceived as the technical next step.

I don't want to phrase this in a way that demeans people who actually do want Impa, certainly hope for whoever you like. Honestly I think she looks really cool in the Warriors games, I quite like her Skyward Sword design too. She just doesn't strike me as a particularly exciting choice with either a distinct mechanic / fighting style that demands a moveset or a level of popularity among players that would make her an enticing choice to see on a big crossover roster. Sometimes even if something feels like the "right" choice it's not necessarily the best one for Smash, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I feel like that's why we've seen characters like Rosalina take precedent over Toad.

It’s all personal preference but Impa was my favorite character to play as in Hyrule Warriors. She had such a cool design and two fun movesets in that game. My second favorite was Ganondorf, who I think I’ll always enjoy in whatever game he’s in.

 

[Kirbeh]

Honestly at this point I just want a new Zelda character period. I'd take just about any of the major requests; Ganon, Skull Kid, Midna (Imp or normal), Ghirahim, a BOTW Champion, a TOTK Champion, Impa, etc. Except Wind Waker Tingle. Don't like that guy.

Heck, if they want to go with a really out there pick like Agitha in Warriors, I'd take that too.

 

[Louie G.]

It’s all personal preference but Impa was my favorite character to play as in Hyrule Warriors. She had such a cool design and two fun movesets in that game. My second favorite was Ganondorf, who I think I’ll always enjoy in whatever game he’s in.

I'm glad to hear that then! I'm happy Impa has earnest supporters, I know a couple others off the top of my head, I just believe a lot of speculation surrounding her has stemmed from a simple "who's next" and an aversion to touching the dreaded one-shot Zelda characters who Smash has neglected over the years. Which is often kind of lame but in all fairness, I understand the hesitation given how conservative Zelda's roster has been up to this point. What a strange series to speculate about, I wonder how different it would be if we got Ghirahim or Midna back in Smash 4.

My bottom line on the matter though is that going down the hierarchy of who's important in the series hits a bit of a dead end at a certain point, and I think Zelda falls off substantially after the Triforce trio where saying something like "Impa is the next most important" is practically meaningless. Certainly not as clear as like... Dixie Kong, or Tom Nook for their respective series.

All that said, the next Zelda character should obviously be Beedle. I'm only half kidding.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I've been wanting to use Impa since her fun redesign in the Oracle games. Where she felt like an actual fighter and wasn't just basically the same as Sheik. HW also went into having her have more muscles, but what makes this design favorable for me is that she's a strong fighter while also being a much older person. A big issue is how a lot of games just love to only have younger women and once they hit a certain age clearly they aren't battle capable(which is a load of crap). Soul Calibur cut characters for this reason alone, and it drives me up the wall. That's why I appreciate other things like Fat Princess being playable in a game. I like not just diversity, but the fact that it's not holding back on all kinds of fun and unique choices.

Also, the lack of heavyset playable female characters in games is atrocious. Not even just fighting ones. It's part of what really made me appreciate her design. While said version of Impa doesn't do heavily that much, they still present her as reasonable badass through various artwork and such. Her lifting a cow is just a meme, but her showing off her muscle is an official thing. In fact, it's the first time she has clearly defined muscles, not Hyrule Warriors.

Midna and Skull Kid never spoke out to me to anywhere the same degree. Not that I don't appreciate their characters either(MM and LA are my two favorite games in the series, after all!), though Tingle easily trumps Skull Kid. I like how he's an expressive person and himself(WW version, who mind you is a different person, was... not so great. Hell, he's one of the most awful characters in that game morals-wise. The only other character to come close otherwise is freaking Ganondorf, and he at least notes some altruistic goals at one point, which says something too). Anyway, the Zelda cast is rich with tons of fun characters. I also want to see classic Pig Ganon somewhere(the original ALTTP design has never shown up in a single Smash game, surprisingly. Though it's worth noting Impa took a while to show up too. I'm glad other Ganons show up along with Ganondorfs, but still).

 

[Kirbeh]

I've been wanting to use Impa since her fun redesign in the Oracle games. Where she felt like an actual fighter and wasn't just basically the same as Sheik. HW also went into having her have more muscles, but what makes this design favorable for me is that she's a strong fighter while also being a much older person. A big issue is how a lot of games just love to only have younger women and once they hit a certain age clearly they aren't battle capable(which is a load of crap). Soul Calibur cut characters for this reason alone, and it drives me up the wall. That's why I appreciate other things like Fat Princess being playable in a game. I like not just diversity, but the fact that it's not holding back on all kinds of fun and unique choices.

Also, the lack of heavyset playable female characters in games is atrocious. Not even just fighting ones. It's part of what really made me appreciate her design. While said version of Impa doesn't do heavily that much, they still present her as reasonable badass through various artwork and such. Her lifting a cow is just a meme, but her showing off her muscle is an official thing. In fact, it's the first time she has clearly defined muscles, not Hyrule Warriors.

Midna and Skull Kid never spoke out to me to anywhere the same degree. Not that I don't appreciate their characters either(MM and LA are my two favorite games in the series, after all!), though Tingle easily trumps Skull Kid. I like how he's an expressive person and himself(WW version, who mind you is a different person, was... not so great. Hell, he's one of the most awful characters in that game morals-wise. The only other character to come close otherwise is freaking Ganondorf, and he at least notes some altruistic goals at one point, which says something too). Anyway, the Zelda cast is rich with tons of fun characters. I also want to see classic Pig Ganon somewhere(the original ALTTP design has never shown up in a single Smash game, surprisingly. Though it's worth noting Impa took a while to show up too. I'm glad other Ganons show up along with Ganondorfs, but still).

V was definitely the Soul Calibur game of all time...

The roster issues really are a shame because I really liked some of the newcomers in that game like Zwei and Viola. And with this conversation being about Zelda, I'm only now seeing the cool potential parallel to HW Impa that they could've gone with for Taki. Lots of missed opportunities there.

 

[HyperSomari64]

V was definitely the Soul Calibur game of all time...

The roster issues really are a shame because I really liked some of the newcomers in that game like Zwei and Viola. And with this conversation being about Zelda, I'm only now seeing the cool potential parallel to HW Impa that they could've gone with for Taki. Lots of missed opportunities there.

The entire Soul Calibur fandom going to raid Kirbeh's home, after reading such hot take:

/j

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

V was definitely the Soul Calibur game of all time...

The roster issues really are a shame because I really liked some of the newcomers in that game like Zwei and Viola. And with this conversation being about Zelda, I'm only now seeing the cool potential parallel to HW Impa that they could've gone with for Taki. Lots of missed opportunities there.

Just them being a little over 30 being an excuse to cut is beyond horrible. Ivy only gets to stay in cause "she looks younger" is lame. It's not like Taki even would've changed that much, ya know? Not that it's a legitimate excuse even if they turned more elderly. If that's your excuse, Misturugi should be cut too, as should many other male characters. It's both or nothing. Ugh.

The new characters were cool, at least. But still. And yeah, they had so many fun potential fighter options. Without even going to into the moveset clones(SCIII was the king of that, won't lie. II still had some, but not to the same degree. Justified in-story for III, at least, since they needed quick character. Usually it's more like how Mortal Kombat Deception did it, where generic Lizardmen would exist in the same way Tarkatan do. Giving every member a different moveset is much more difficult. Giving them slight fight equipment however is pretty easy and makes it a bit more fun. I don't think they did in IV, though?). Speaking of, some of the equipment ideas in IV were cool, till it got to the battle stripping part. ._.;