Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Momotsuki]

Here's my cut list.

1. Mario - That plumber has had it too good for too long. Dr.Mario stays though.

I'm down. Maybe Mario can be four of Doc's alts.

 

[osby]

Actually, the next Smash game should be marketed with several high-budget, well-directed trailers, each confirming more cuts, only for the final title to feature a single fighter.

 

[Opossum]

Man I'm just gonna say it, having illogically long and extensive cut lists that forego the logic of past cuts, and responding to those by mocking the idea of cuts entirely with the "hilarious" joke of "actually they're cutting Mario and/or everyone," are two different flavors of the same brand of Annoying.

 

[Ivander]

Actually, the next Smash game should be marketed with several high-budget, well-directed trailers, each confirming more cuts, only for the final title to feature a single fighter.

From "Everyone is Here" to "Everyone is Dead" to "Everyone is Back" to "Everyone is Dying".

And the single fighter remaining is Kirby again.

 

[HyperSomari64]

And the single fighter remaining is Corrin.

Fix'd,
To rub salt into the wound.

 

[osby]

From "Everyone is Here" to "Everyone is Dead" to "Everyone is Back" to "Everyone is Dying".

And the single fighter remaining is Kirby again.

A new ballot to decide who that fighter is would create some fun and wholesome discussions, I'm expecting Nintendo to go down that road.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Time for an 8-bit Smash demake:

Actually, the next Smash game should be marketed with several high-budget, well-directed trailers, each confirming more cuts, only for the final title to feature a single fighter.

Pictured:

 

[Speed Weed]

I would simply cut everyone except for the fighting game reps and Pac-Man, and replace the rest of the roster with semi-obscure arcade game characters. Get ready for Karnov, a Psikyo rep and Rosa from Undercover Cops

 

[Guynamednelson]

tfw you really wanted Little Mac but don't like the playstyle he eventually got so you're completely neutral on the idea of cutting him

 

[Gengar84]

Time for an 8-bit Smash demake:

View attachment 374704

Pictured:
View attachment 374702

I see a Battletoad, I like. Simple as that. Bill Rizer doesn’t hurt either

 

[DarthEnderX]

tfw you really wanted Little Mac but don't like the playstyle he eventually got so you're completely neutral on the idea of cutting him

I really wanted Little Mac AND I like his playstyle. It's just that he's...bad.

 

[Gengar84]

I eally wanted Little Mac AND I like his playstyle. It's just that he's...bad.

I feel like he only really needs a few minor adjustments to be good. Maybe buff his aerial game where he’s still one of the worst but not so far below everyone else. Then again, I’m not a competitive player so there’s likely something else I’m overlooking.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Man I'm just gonna say it, having illogically long and extensive cut lists that forego the logic of past cuts, and responding to those by mocking the idea of cuts entirely with the "hilarious" joke of "actually they're cutting Mario and/or everyone," are two different flavors of the same brand of Annoying.

I mean of course I know cuts are sometimes inevitable, I was just kinda making fun of how cut discussions usually boil down to "I personally don't like or care for this character".

But yeah I know I am pretty unfunny. I guess I just think the Smash scene needs some levity because hoo-boy do people have their sticks up their mud (or however that saying goes).

 

[Momotsuki]

Personally - and I'm thinking a bit long-term here - I think the best way forward is the 64-Brawl staples, a rotating cast of the less iconic veterans, and some zanier, out-there newcomers with the understanding that it might be a while before we see them again. Just since as much as it pains me to admit it, Everyone is Here is as unsustainable as it is fun. That is to say, very.

With regards to Little Mac, I think what he needs more than anything are tools to force the opponent to play his game. Literally nobody in the game besides Kazuya stands a chance at out-scrapping Little Mac. But it's just so easy to avoid having to, and that's the issue.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Little Mac was my most-wanted and he became my main.

I'd love to see him get some buffs to his aerial game, though. I know him primarily being a ground fighter was the point but seeing how he still had to jump in order to do attacks in his games, that would still fit his character, so he shouldn't be completely weak the air. I say even his KO Punch should still be as strong in the air as it is on the ground.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Man these rosters feels tasteless almost no character feels hype I trust Sakurai vision more
The fact that I see Terry missing despite how much SNK was willing to give out content is kinda disrespectful ngl

Yeah. These rosters only made me dislike the hard reboots people want even more.
——————

I swear the biggest reason people push for hard reboots is a “*%#^ you, I didn’t get mine” mindset. If we nuke the roster, surely they will add the deserving characters I want, revamp the veterans I deem “deserving” of staying, and purge the undesirables who “stole” my most wanted’s spot.

This might be a radical idea, but you don’t need to thanos snap the roster to get Bandana Dee or Isaac. Cutting Incineroar and Corrin won’t give you the perfect crossover experience. Addition does not happen by subtraction. A hard reboot is just as likely to disappoint you as a traditional next Smash game. A more “reasonable” roster will probably end up disappointing you just as much as EiH 2.0.

It’s just a mindset of people who feel slighted that Ultimate was not “their” Ultimate smash game. Because WoL disappointed them and they have beef with the roster, they want to burn it all down. This is exactly why I said Smash fans let perfect be the enemy of good. Ultimate, for all intents and purposes, is at worst fine. Even with its development cycle of ~2 and a half years, we got the best stage lineup of any Smash game, plenty of fan favorites in the base roster, a great rework of classic mode, and spirits helping make trophies actually interesting from a gameplay perspective. It has great physics and game speed. It is easy to approach for new fans but with enough of a skill ceiling you can keep growing.

But because it wasn’t “perfect”, it isn’t good. Any minute criticism automatically makes the game wrong from the start. My most wanted didn’t get in? Pichu or Corrin stole their spot, everyone is here is a travesty. Spirits replaced trophies, which were a huge time sink for development time due to model creation and translation? Waste of time, Sakurai should have made “my” perfect adventure more. Smash doesn’t lean into crossover elements enough? Burn the entire thing down, it’s a lost cause guys, gals, and non binary pals.

If you let your minor criticisms distract you from what Ultimate is and it’s triumphs, I don’t know what to say. It’s the best selling fighting game of all time. The casual fanbase loved the game. The DLC went gangbusters in terms of sales. It still has a solid single player experience and the best multiplayer experience in the series. Do I have gripes with Ultimate? Sure, I would love better online multiplayer, retooled classic mode routes, and a better hazard toggle. Ultimate is not immune to criticism. Said criticism manifesting in a need to burn everything down I take issue with. The game did insanely well, it outsold Brawl, Melee, and Smash 4 Wii U combined. The greater gaming populous, the more causal side of the fandom, the silent majority, they love Ultimate. But because you didn’t get your perfect Smash game, you want to tear the whole game down. It’s especially frustrating what people treat any pushback to the idea that Ultimate is good as bad. I wish this wasn’t the case, but I have seen multiple times from the pro reboot crowd, especially recently.

Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Look at how far Smash has come, how much it’s blossomed. Are there things that can change for the better? Of course, but that doesn’t mean we have to take drastic alienating measures to achieve them such as a nuclear reboot. The next game doesn’t have to be EiH, we could see a dozen or so cuts. But a hard reboot just ain’t going to fix everything.

 

[Gengar84]

Personally - and I'm thinking a bit long-term here - I think the best way forward is the 64-Brawl staples, a rotating cast of the less iconic veterans, and some zanier, out-there newcomers with the understanding that it might be a while before we see them again. Just since as much as it pains me to admit it, Everyone is Here is as unsustainable as it is fun. That is to say, very.

With regards to Little Mac, I think what he needs more than anything are tools to force the opponent to play his game. Literally nobody in the game besides Kazuya stands a chance at out-scrapping Little Mac. But it's just so easy to avoid having to, and that's the issue.

My preferred option is just to keep building on top of Ultimate for the foreseeable future but I realize that’s not really sustainable at some point. While I prefer no cuts at all, if we do get them, I feel like the series would benefit in a radical change of direction for character selection so future games don’t feel like “Ultimate at home” (Ultimate but not as good).

One idea I had that could potentially work is to transform the series into Nintendo Vs. X, similar to Capcom’s Vs. games but for platform fighters. This could start out as Nintendo Vs. another video game or software developer like Capcom or Microsoft but doesn’t have to be limited to that. We could potentially also see other matchups like Disney, Shonen-Jump, or anything else. This approach would give us a fresh 50% of the roster each game while keeping all of Nintendo’s own staples. Nintendo’s side of the roster could be adjusted a bit for each game to include some of their most recent games and characters while putting other smaller characters on a rotating cycle. This would theoretically make 3rd party negotiations easier since they only have to worry about one third party company each game.

 

[Momotsuki]

My preferred option is just to keep building on top of Ultimate for the foreseeable future but I realize that’s not really sustainable at some point. While I prefer no cuts at all, if we do get them, I feel like the series would benefit in a radical change of direction for character selection so future games don’t feel like “Ultimate at home” (Ultimate but not as good).

I personally agree with you in that building on Ultimate for as long as that's a viable option (which as we agree, will not remain the case) is the way to go. I'm moreso speaking in terms of if (or rather, when) that's not/is no longer a workable option.

 

[Garteam]

Mac's problem isn't that his aerial attacks are too bad to be viable, it's that his ground moves don't have enough utility to really make up for not having good aerials. Give up-smash invincibility so that it's a better anti-air. Make down-tilt a frame-one move again to make KO punch that much scarier. Let Straight Lunge reflect projectiles so Mac has an answer to strong projectiles like Kazuya. Make his throws generally not suck so he has answers to shields outside of KO punch and just putting on pressure until the shield breaks.

I always kind of hated the idea of just giving Mac better aerials because it essentially throws his entire archetype out the window and Mac's current playstyle (based on my anecdotal experience) is good for getting people unfamiliar with platformers into Smash. If his air game does need to be buffed, I'd much rather see him get better air mobility. That way, he gains additional movement options while still maintaining his archetype, as you're still a sitting duck when going for the air-based mixups in your movement.

 

[HyperSomari64]

How to make the most beautiful roster for a Smash Bros Reboot (keeping the celebration of gaming history motif and going it up to the max)

Spoiler

Step 1: You need a-
Who am i kidding!? It is just the Ultimate roster but without the nostalgic cartoony characters (Scientific Name: "Scrimblubimblus Loveabliscrunkus") like Mario, Pacman, Banjo, etc. (Mega man's OK since he's kinda anime, but he's still borderline Scrimblo). That's the most obvious thing i would say.
Darn, i should stop crying about Project X Zone for a long time.

 

[Momotsuki]

I really do love unreasonably huge rosters, though. My Smash game of choice lately has been PMEX REMIX, a game with over 130 fighters, though of course they're not all to an official standard of quality. Still, it's to the point that my Wii lags like hell on the character selection screen, and I think that's beautiful in its own silly way.

Of course, the culmination of over a decade of one of the biggest modding scenes ever isn't something you can or should fairly compare to something created and released within a few years. But honestly I feel like I could play this game forever with its combination of roster excess and the technical depth that comes with the PM baseline, to the point where I don't really find myself thinking about the "next Smash" a whole lot.

As somebody returning from a Smashboards hiatus and a veteran of the speculation trenches, is this thread usually just arguing over cuts?

 

[Guynamednelson]

As somebody returning from a Smashboards hiatus and a veteran of the speculation trenches, is this thread usually just arguing over cuts?

Nope! We argue about Geno too now that he's gonna be playable in a game less than 25 years old!

 

[Momotsuki]

Nope! We argue about Geno too now that he's gonna be playable in a game less than 25 years old!

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I really do love unreasonably huge rosters, though. My Smash game of choice lately has been PMEX REMIX, a game with over 130 fighters, though of course they're not all to an official standard of quality. Still, it's to the point that my Wii lags like hell on the character selection screen, and I think that's beautiful in its own silly way.

Of course, the culmination of over a decade of one of the biggest modding scenes ever isn't something you can or should fairly compare to something created and released within a few years. But honestly I feel like I could play this game forever with its combination of roster excess and the technical depth that comes with the PM baseline, to the point where I don't really find myself thinking about the "next Smash" a whole lot.

As somebody returning from a Smashboards hiatus and a veteran of the speculation trenches, is this thread usually just arguing over cuts?

Well, I just got done with the Pikmin 4 Demo, so if anybody wants I'd be willing to try and pitch a playable Oatchi.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I'm bored, let's do a scenario. Ultimate Deluxe happens on Switch 2. Ultimate Deluxe's main improvements are that it has improved visuals and online play, including rollback netcode. As well as new characters. stages, music, and spirits. All newcomers will have Spirit Boards. also, you can transfer your save data from Ultimate. This is the newcomer selection:



Those highlighted in green are in the base game. Those highlighted in red are the DLC. The Pokemon that you get with the Hisui Pokemon Trainer are Cyndaquil, Dewott, and Hisui Decidueye. Yes, Waluigi and Bomberman are promoted from Assist Trophies.

How would you feel about this scenario?

At least I got my lil veemo UwU and Crash is cool too

Vi… not Ahri or Jinx but I’ll take her I guess even if I don’t play her much

feels just a bit too early to use the speculative New Monolith IP rep, but that’s just me

 

[TCT~Phantom]

As somebody returning from a Smashboards hiatus and a veteran of the speculation trenches, is this thread usually just arguing over cuts?

This thread argues about cuts on average once a week sadly. It's a shame that it comes up as frequently as it does, especially when a more fresh fun discussion is happening.

This thread goes between cuts discussion, token character discussion by people active here, and people arguing semantics back and forth about retro characters.

Mac's problem isn't that his aerial attacks are too bad to be viable, it's that his ground moves don't have enough utility to really make up for not having good aerials. Give up-smash invincibility so that it's a better anti-air. Make down-tilt a frame-one move again to make KO punch that much scarier. Let Straight Lunge reflect projectiles so Mac has an answer to strong projectiles like Kazuya. Make his throws generally not suck so he has answers to shields outside of KO punch and just putting on pressure until the shield breaks.

I always kind of hated the idea of just giving Mac better aerials because it essentially throws his entire archetype out the window and Mac's current playstyle (based on my anecdotal experience) is good for getting people unfamiliar with platformers into Smash. If his air game does need to be buffed, I'd much rather see him get better air mobility. That way, he gains additional movement options while still maintaining his archetype, as you're still a sitting duck when going for the air-based mixups in your movement.

My main fix is most of those, but also a minor buff to his Up B. I think turning it into a viable Out of Shield option is another huge buff you can give him. Perhaps by making it have a larger hitbox in front of him it would be a good fix.

My preferred fix out of all of those is mainly turning down KO Punch a bit in its KO window (let's have it reliably KO about 25% later) and making the rest of his grounded kit better. I feel that his grounded kit is being held back by KO Punch and the design restrictions around it. Buff Down tilt, make his forward Smash reflect projectiles (I like the current design space of straight lunge as a potential combo breaker), buff his grab and throw game. I would also make his initial jump off the ground better, since I would like the idea of platform camping him to be less of a viable option. I do not need him to have a strong air game, just make it so he can reliably get on Battlefield style platforms.

 

[Schnee117]

As somebody returning from a Smashboards hiatus and a veteran of the speculation trenches, is this thread usually just arguing over cuts?

The arguing about cuts and reboots doesn't happen until people come along to try and shut down what is otherwise a reasonable discussion.
Like no one's actually saying to burn the whole ****ing thing down but people get so overdramatic about it even happening lol

 

[Rie Sonomura]

…ah. I see we’re talking cuts again.

i can understand wanting some characters to get reworks (Sonic DEFINITELY could use a rework) but… why are these “hard reboot” rosters ALWAYS cutting the roster by exactly half?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Y'all are gonna hate this, but here's a roster I made a while ago for a hypothetical Smash reboot.

View attachment 374687

If it's an entirely new game, with new mechanics, stages, gamemodes, movesets, visuals, newcomers, etc. then having the roster be the size of Smash 4's is a bit optimistic, and kinda toothless. So my roster has 40 characters, including DLC.

The "Pokemon" and "Fire Emblem" slots are placeholders. I'm sure you can make several arguments for why I should've kept some characters over others. In hindsight probably I should've included like 1 or 2 third party characters. Also cutting Meta Knight was dumb. The point is the roster has 40 characters, because I want dev time to be invested into other aspects of the game.

I don't know about you guys, but I personally don't need 90 characters to enjoy a fighting game. And if I do want that, I can still play Ultimate. I don't think a Smash sequel necessarily has to act as a replacement for the previous one.

Also there'd be the prospect that all these third party IPs, that are in Smash Ultimate, will eventually return in subsequent games.

So, just to help you out here, are you aware that KOS-MOS is a third party character? She was made by Monolith, which is why she gets the cameos, but she's owned by Namco.

 

[HyperSomari64]

…ah. I see we’re talking cuts again.

i can understand wanting some characters to get reworks (Sonic DEFINITELY could use a rework) but… why are these “hard reboot” rosters ALWAYS cutting the roster by exactly half?

The best way to rework him is by cutting the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise as a whole. Geez, i need help from my "Sonic not being on PxZ" trauma...

 

[TCT~Phantom]

…ah. I see we’re talking cuts again.

i can understand wanting some characters to get reworks (Sonic DEFINITELY could use a rework) but… why are these “hard reboot” rosters ALWAYS cutting the roster by exactly half?

Because at its core a lot of the discussion is a very vocal, small minority lashing out against Ultimate. As such, a hard reboot must be the antithesis of Ultimate. It is just so exhausting especially when odds are the next game is just going to be using Ultimate as a foundation with a ~12 or so cuts of lower priority veterans. Mainly less popular veterans like Corrin or lower priority clones like Young Link or Pichu. But that doesn't "purify" the roster enough for some people.

Hard reboots also are a convenient trojan horse for "Nintendo all star" elitism that should have been dead and buried in 2015 at the latest, but that is a whole different tedious discussion of people being upsetti spaghetti Smash Ultimate was not "their Ultimate Smash game".

 

[Gengar84]

Because at its core a lot of the discussion is a very vocal, small minority lashing out against Ultimate. As such, a hard reboot must be the antithesis of Ultimate. It is just so exhausting especially when odds are the next game is just going to be using Ultimate as a foundation with a ~12 or so cuts of lower priority veterans. Mainly less popular veterans like Corrin or lower priority clones like Young Link or Pichu. But that doesn't "purify" the roster enough for some people.

Hard reboots also are a convenient trojan horse for "Nintendo all star" elitism that should have been dead and buried in 2015 at the latest, but that is a whole different tedious discussion of people being upsetti spaghetti Smash Ultimate was not "their Ultimate Smash game".

I’m in the pro large roster with no cuts camp but I feel like you are being a bit unfair to those that expect big changes to the roster. Maybe there’s a few people like you describe that want a “pure roster” or whatever but I don’t think that’s the primary reason for most people. The challenge is to prevent the game from feeling like Ultimate but worse. If the game was very similar with a few less characters, what’s the incentive to play it and not just stick with Ultimate. Once you include all the mods Ultimate has, it becomes an even harder sell. That’s why I think a big change is needed to set the game apart if it isn’t just built with Ultimate as a foundation. I don’t care one bit about iconic or deserving status and just think that the game could use some kind of hook to grab people. That’s not going to be easy without “everyone is still here” or some radical shift to make up for the cuts.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Because at its core a lot of the discussion is a very vocal, small minority lashing out against Ultimate. As such, a hard reboot must be the antithesis of Ultimate. It is just so exhausting especially when odds are the next game is just going to be using Ultimate as a foundation with a ~12 or so cuts of lower priority veterans. Mainly less popular veterans like Corrin or lower priority clones like Young Link or Pichu. But that doesn't "purify" the roster enough for some people.

Hard reboots also are a convenient trojan horse for "Nintendo all star" elitism that should have been dead and buried in 2015 at the latest, but that is a whole different tedious discussion of people being upsetti spaghetti Smash Ultimate was not "their Ultimate Smash game".

...did I just read this right? Did you just run over a bunch of criticism of Ultimate by stating the people complaining about the roster's size are being ungrateful? I'm hoping that's just a gross overgeneralization I made, and not remotely close to what I read.

 

[Oracle Link]

I just wanted to share art of toon link i drew (I had original art as help)

Its Specifically from a childhood zelda idea i had called: TLOZ The Rainbow Sword
The Sword in links hand is the cloudy Blade the first form of the Rainbow Sword
Toon link also got a slight redesign in the form of orange hair, A yellow trim and darker green clothing!

(also if you think this doesnt fit I MADE one or two Zelda socials but nobody is there)

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I feel like people think if you cut most of the roster it frees up space for more Zelda characters.

Even though the selection of Zelda characters is fine as is lol

 

[Arcanir]

Because at its core a lot of the discussion is a very vocal, small minority lashing out against Ultimate. As such, a hard reboot must be the antithesis of Ultimate. It is just so exhausting especially when odds are the next game is just going to be using Ultimate as a foundation with a ~12 or so cuts of lower priority veterans. Mainly less popular veterans like Corrin or lower priority clones like Young Link or Pichu. But that doesn't "purify" the roster enough for some people.

Hard reboots also are a convenient trojan horse for "Nintendo all star" elitism that should have been dead and buried in 2015 at the latest, but that is a whole different tedious discussion of people being upsetti spaghetti Smash Ultimate was not "their Ultimate Smash game".

I have to be honest, this reads like a strawman argument. I won't deny that there are those who are thinking selfishly like that, but most of the people talking about cuts in this topic are not doing so out of personal bias or a desire to 'purge' the roster, but rather discussing potential directions the game could take and how it could shape up with the pressures of following Ultimate. Taking all of that and dumbing it down to a 'they just mad they didn't get what they wanted' is being completely dismissive of the legitimate points brought up for the topic and quite frankly is very damaging on discussion as well.

 

[Gengar84]

And this is why I don’t usually like to participate in cuts discussion. Even if it is an inevitability, it usually just leads to people getting upset that someone cut one of their favorite characters or generally just disagree. I personally find it a lot more fun to discuss what could be added rather than subtracted. That way we can have fun talking about our favorite characters and other ideas like modes and stages. For that same reason, I prefer talking about what I’d love to see rather than get hung up on things like likelihood and whether a character is deserving or not.

 

[SPEN18]

I think it's funny that people actually think it would be easier to build a new engine and rebuild veteran fighters from the ground up with new movesets, designs and animations in conjunction with developing brand new fighters, than to port the already complete engine and roster of Ultimate and build off of it

It's worth reiterating that even in the hardest of reboots, they would still use as a base whatever can be reused and makes sense to reuse. But we're going off history here. Clearly they didn't think porting everything over without major changes was as desirable as making something new when going from Melee to Brawl or from Brawl to 4. Clearly then it was worth it to make something completely new even if that meant that some pieces of old content couldn't make it. Even if you look at Nintendo series besides Smash, it is rare for the first new entry after a platform switch to not look or feel significantly different from previous entries. Making games takes a ton of work, even if you can reuse a lot of stuff from previous efforts; even in Ult, EiH almost didn't happen despite the conditions for porting old material being more favorable than ever.

 

[Oracle Link]

I have to be honest, this reads like a strawman argument. I won't deny that there are those who are thinking selfishly like that, but most of the people talking about cuts in this topic are not doing so out of personal bias or a desire to 'purge' the roster, but rather discussing potential directions the game could take and how it could shape up with the pressures of following Ultimate. Taking all of that and dumbing it down to a 'they just mad they didn't get what they wanted' is being completely dismissive of the legitimate points brought up for the topic and quite frankly is very damaging on discussion as well.

yeah ususally i try to make everyone happy (although in the realm of nintendo) even franchises who i personally dont think need newcomers like dk or xenoblade get usually 1!
And i try to be pretty objective a lot of the time!
And My "Personal ultimate smash" Would be a zelda smash and a kirby fighter 3 with a good roster!

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I personally think there are a couple of choices made in Ultimate that weren't exactly for the best. "Everyone Is Here" was a good idea on paper, no doubt. It's the execution of the concept that can vary in quality from person to person. But even if I see faults in the design, that's not necessarily an excuse to gut half of the decisions. But that doesn't make the opposition wrong. It just means that there has to be an agreement on where the threshold is met.

This is a discussion thread, after all. Shouldn't we avoid resorting to generalizations?