chocolatejr9
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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter NonSpecificGuy
- Start date
If they rerelease Smash Ultimate at some point in the future I think what I'd want to see more than anything is the return of custom moves. Obviously making custom moves for nearly ninety characters is a tall order, but having already finished the "make the game" part perhaps it'd be more realistic.
And while the custom grind in Smash for wasn't great, I don't actually think the solution is to just make them all unlocked automatically. Rather the solution is to make good single player content to make the custom grind more fun. And the nature of an enhanced port may, again, make this more practical. In particular I'd love to see Crazy Orders again. I have come dangerously close to dusting off the Wii U to scratch that itch.
And while the custom grind in Smash for wasn't great, I don't actually think the solution is to just make them all unlocked automatically. Rather the solution is to make good single player content to make the custom grind more fun. And the nature of an enhanced port may, again, make this more practical. In particular I'd love to see Crazy Orders again. I have come dangerously close to dusting off the Wii U to scratch that itch.
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jamesster445
Smash Lord
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Well yeah, for the longest time Gex outsold Kingdom Hearts. It only lost because Gex wasn't in a game for 2 decades. Square knows that Gex is where the moneys at.
Nabbitfan730
Smash Ace
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Fixed!
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One thing I want to mention is that the numbers for Gex are a bit misleading.
The exact quote from which that sales figure was taken cites "across all platforms" while touting the success of the games on PSN. Many other sales figures do not get that inflation boost from doing well on the PS3 virtual console. Lumping in digital downloads clouds things a lot. How much larger would the Crash sales figures or the Rayman sales figures be if they included digital sales on PSN, when their buying price was so much lower? Heck, look at how the Collector's reprint for the Gex games got axed for the PS1. If the Gex games were truly that successful back then, they would not have resisted one more reprint to make some extra cash.
A big part of those sales is due to how dirty cheap, even for PSone Classics, the series was on the PS3. I often saw them for less than the 5.99 that was standard for each PSone game. Even then, I doubt they were among the best sellers for the system in terms of Classics. When checking the store back in the day for example, Gex was not at the top of the most popular PSone classics: it was the usual suspects like Meta Gear Solid, Crash Bandicoot, Spyro the Dragon, Final Fantasy VII, and Symphony of the Night.
PSone classics do not have the best sales data, but if you lumped those in with franchises like Crash, Spyro, or Rayman you would have Gex looking a lot more meager.
Also it didn't even outsell Kingdom Hearts games once 2014 rolled around. By that point Kingdom Hearts had sold over 20 million units.
Not going to do each company, but here are a few I would do. Including echos
Sega
- Sonic
- Shadow
- Eggman
- Bayonetta
- Joker
- Alis Landale
- Arle Nadja
- Kazama Kiryu
- Snake
- Big Boss
- Simon
- Richter
- Alucard
- Bomberman
- Bill Rizer
- Goemon
- Mega Man
- Zero
- Ryu
- Ken
- Chun Li
- Dante
- Monster Hunter
- Leon S Kennedy
- Pac Man
- Kazuya
- Chosen Undead
- Nightmare
- Lloyd Irving
- Alphen
- Klonoa
- KOS MOS
- Cloud
- Zack Fair
- Sephiroth
- Terra
- Hero
- Neku
- Chrono
- 2B
- Banjo and Kazooie
- Steve
- Master Chief
- Dragonborn
- Doomslayer
- Crash Bandicoot
- Spyro the Dragon
- The Lich King
God I hate the idea of a reboot, especially when it comes to "revising" veterans.
It always screams letting perfect be the enemy of good. Because we do not have the perfect moveset for Ganondorf and insert any of Olimar, Samus, Sonic, etc we have to bite our nose to spite our face. I strongly feel the vast majority of the roster is in a fine spot moveset wise. Could some use a tweek or too? Sure, Ganon is in a bad spot in a variety of ways. But we do not need to amputate a leg to save a toe. Ultimate is such a great framework to build off of. The physics are just right. The gameplay feels fluid and expressive. The stage design and most of the roster are good. Why do we need to change so much when the game is in a solid state?
Even in the event of a reboot... why would I not want them to focus on new content? I do not want to have to look at a radically different version of half the roster, where I will have mixed feelings on every little change they make. I would rather they make small touches and focus on providing us new content. If we really do have to go with a reboot, why waste so much time on content that is, for the most part, fine? If we had to go with some sort of reboot, go all out with the roster. I would rather have a roster full of new, vibrant and distinct characters than a roster to fix nerds on the internet's gripes with Samus and Sonic's movesets.
Besides, I doubt Nintendo is even interested in rocking the boat with a reboot at all. I expect something similar to the progression Smash 4 made from Brawl or Ultimate made from Smash 4. If it isn't broke, do not fix it.
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Nabbitfan730
Smash Ace
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Well i agree on the veterans apart. Never really understood the absolute need people have on updating veterans when most of them are fine. I'm just not on board on the Ultimate Deluxe just having game over and over. Not saying it should be drastically different unless they are changing genres but at least things to shake things up. That and it makes Ultimate a lot less 'special'.
Still using Ultimate as base but improving from there. Newcomers, New Music, New Modes etc would be satisfactory for a new entry. Smash 6 doesn't need to "surpass" Ultimate. It just needs to differentiate well enough to stand out and warrant its existence.
A Brawl-Smash 4 size roster + DLC would be the way to go for a reboot/Smash 6. Nothing less than tho.
Still using Ultimate as base but improving from there. Newcomers, New Music, New Modes etc would be satisfactory for a new entry. Smash 6 doesn't need to "surpass" Ultimate. It just needs to differentiate well enough to stand out and warrant its existence.
A Brawl-Smash 4 size roster + DLC would be the way to go for a reboot/Smash 6. Nothing less than tho.
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The phrase "letting perfect being the enemy of good" doesn't speak to people who don't think it's "good" to begin with. People asking for the likes of Samus or Ganondorf to be overhauled are largely doing so because they think these characters are bad (or at best mediocre), in terms of feel, mechanics, and/or faithfulness to source material, not because they think they are good but could be minorly improved.
Also, other characters being fine doesn't imply that we shouldn't fix the ones that potentially aren't?
I mean, I do agree with focusing on new content more than focusing on moveset changes. I do think most people agree that most characters are, on the whole, well-designed. That doesn't mean there are no improvements to be made on the existing movesets, even if it is incremental for many of them. Each new game is an opportunity to reevaluate everything that was done before, and I don't think we should just skip out on that reevaluation.
--
In terms of the "not broke, don't fix" attitude, well, for one thing just adding on top of Ultimate like Ultimate added onto Smash 4 isn't sustainable, certainly not in the long run and maybe not even in the short term. Even if an Ult rerelease or deluxe version would be possible, "the same game + more DLC" eventually stops being a compelling selling point. Many of Nintendo's big franchises have undergone significant change for one reason or another, in many cases for the better.
Not all improvement is measured by "the number of characters we have." Moveset overhauls shouldn't be declared useless or detrimental just because they spend resources on something other than increasing the roster number. Instead of focusing on increasing the number of playable spots, it's also viable to focus on optimizing the spots that you do have, both in terms of the actual characters you choose to include in those spots and what you do with those characters moveset-wise. The latter is even more sensible, even unavoidable, if you find that you can't increase the number of spots by very much (or maybe even have to decrease it).
Ganondorf is stupidly fun to play. Even if he's not the most faithful character-wise, it would be unfortunate to lose a kit that has enamored so many players, myself included. Sure, it's not an archtype that's viable in a competitive setting, but the people playing the character as he exists now do not care about that. We love our terrifying bottom-tiers that kill at 30%.
That being said, the lack of faithfulness is a real issue and I completely understand being bothered by it. I'm quite firmly in the "introduce Black Shadow, give him the Falcondorf kit, and rework Ganondorf from the ground up" camp, myself. It just feels like a win-win solution to something that has been a problem for quite a while now.
Sure, maybe it doesn't fit Black Shadow's character that much either to be so sluggish, seeing as he's from a blisteringly-fast racing game, but I feel like people would be a lot more accepting of that with him - a character with no shot outside of this very specific scenario - as opposed to a character as iconic and beloved as Ganondorf.
That being said, the lack of faithfulness is a real issue and I completely understand being bothered by it. I'm quite firmly in the "introduce Black Shadow, give him the Falcondorf kit, and rework Ganondorf from the ground up" camp, myself. It just feels like a win-win solution to something that has been a problem for quite a while now.
Sure, maybe it doesn't fit Black Shadow's character that much either to be so sluggish, seeing as he's from a blisteringly-fast racing game, but I feel like people would be a lot more accepting of that with him - a character with no shot outside of this very specific scenario - as opposed to a character as iconic and beloved as Ganondorf.
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jamesster445
Smash Lord
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Soo you're saying KH as a franchise was only able to outsell Gex, after Gex had gone MIA for about a decade and a half?
I think it's funny that people actually think it would be easier to build a new engine and rebuild veteran fighters from the ground up with new movesets, designs and animations in conjunction with developing brand new fighters, than to port the already complete engine and roster of Ultimate and build off of it. Not to mention if a majority of the roster is already made and resources wouldn't be spent on retreading old ground., you can actually spend that time developing new things to do with that roster such as new modes more easily
Also using Street Fighter 6 as an example if hilarious. SF6 had to do what it did because SFV was a disaster for both the hardcore and casual audiences and Capcom spent most of that game's life cycle trying to get in a decent state. SF6 meanwhile succeeded for both because it appealed to casuals with Modern Controls and World Tour, without sacrificing complexity for the hardcore audience. Also unlike SFV, all of SF6's newcomers have been universally well received.
At the end of the day, Smash 6 will exist one day and regardless of what it is, be it a reboot, Ultimate DX, or a more proper sequel, People will be there no matter what.
MasterCheef
Smash Ace
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assuming it does happen here are the Nintendo cuts i would like to see
Nintendo Characters as Non Playable for SSB6
1 Ike
2 Ness
3 Falco
4 Chrom
5 Sheik
6 Pichu
7 Robin
8 Lucas
9 Falco
10 Corrin
11 Lucina
12 MinMin
13 Villager
14 Toon Link
15 Young Link
16 Little Mac
17 Ice Climbers
18 Zero Suit Samus
19 Mr. Game & Watch
20 Squirtle , Ivysaur , Charizard
Roy = replaced with Alear
2 Echoes becoming alts = ( Dark Pit & Dr. Mario )
“Soft reboot”? Doing “Everyone is Here” again would be bad for sales? What strain of copium is he smoking?
Personally I’m in the boat that I hope Smash 6 is… a good game. Idgaf how it’s made as long as I can find enjoyment giving out falcon pawnches
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The man hated Falco so much he got cut twice.
Regardless, I'm glad fans don't pick the roster. A Smash without Ness, Villager or Mr. Game & Watch is a disaster.
osby
Smash Obsessed
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I usually think Delzethin's views are fairly grounded but it's a bit silly to assume that a roster as big as Smash 4 can be realized without heavily borrowing from previous titles. I think Ultimate spoiled this fandom a bit too much now that we're acting like significantly retooling 50 fighters is something easily doable.
I find it funnier how Alear replaces Roy specifically, not any of the other 5 cut FE characters.
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Oracle Link
Smash Master
You know what a smash 4 sized roster is definitly pretty reasonable! let me quickly whip something up BRB
PLS Dont kill me i focused on nintendo but switched some characters arround!
- Pikmin is bigger than xenoblade nowadays so it got 1 more rep
- I dont really know fe so i just included 3 old fe chars and 1 new one
- Bandana Dee Obvioulsy
- Sheik gets replaced with Impa whos also a ninja/ Sheikah
- Ganondorf gets a new moveset
- Adult Link Gets A new Moveset (Also gets renamed Champion link)
- Toon link would just be called link? Maybe? i mean hes more classic?
The human is in cause undertale is hype (Replace him with another indie char if you want)
But you dont have to retool everyone just like maybe 25 Characters
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villlager? really? the player character from one of nintendo's biggest sellers?
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It isn't actually. Xenoblade has roughly sold the same amount. Exact numbers are iffy (with video game sales, they always are), but both franchises have sold around 6-8 million. Both have had almost their entire franchise ported to Switch and have recent games. I don't really understand how one is inherently more successful than the other.
Regardless, they're both C+ franchises. 1-2 characters is fair. Especially since you can't even determine who the Pikmin character would be. (There really isn't a good candidate as of now.)
Look I know FE seems to get a token character but at least do some research, Google is right there. If you're going for the most recent game, go for Alear. I'm not a fan of "token future rep" spots.
I love Impa, but we gotta stop cutting Sheik for her. It's reductive to Impa and hurts the roster as a whole. Zelda needs more one offs like Sheik, Skull Kid and Midna. They're already among the most popular character for the franchise anyways. It's the logical way forward since the barrier was broken once already.
Plus, Sheik is incredibly popular in the Smash fandom. Well, for the people who play the game anyways. Most Melee vets are.
I really, really like Impa. She's my personal choice for a Zelda newcomer. It annoys me that the fanbase seems to have no thoughts for her other than "yo let's cut Sheik and replace her with Impa, lol."
Link getting tweaks is fine and even appreciated, but Adult Link is going to be called Link. It's always how its been. Moreover, since Link is one of the most popular characters in Smash, his moveset staying consistent and accessible is a boon. It gives casuals someone to pick up and play. Smash skills translate between games.
Toon Link being included is dependent on the developers believing a smaller, faster Link is important. By the very nature of his moveset design, he is a variant. He will not take the moniker of Link. You need to stop pushing this idea. It is not going to be a thing.
Okay, this is actually something I hate about your roster.
You're trying to replace classic beloved characters with look-alikes, variants and would be echoes. This is not how you make a good roster.
This is how you get something similar to Soul Calibur V. In case you don't know, they replaced about half the cast with replacements and people absolutely despised it. The game did so poorly, it almost destroyed the franchise. Soul Calibur 6, while liked, is still recovering from V's wounds.
You might think this is a case of "modernization" or "better representation," but it isn't. It's doesn't sell the new characters because the question in everyone's mind is "why didn't they just bring back the old character?" It robs the new addition of any real inclusion because they're stuck doing someone else's homework.
- Toad is a based pick, but not over Rosalina. We wouldn't hear the end of it from Mario fans.
- Why is Medusa here? Kid Icarus is a dormant franchise and Medusa isn't particularly popular within the Kid Icarus fandom. If this is a silly attempt to add more villains, than why on earth was Kid Icarus chosen of all franchises? You could have included DJ Octavio if you're actually starved for villains. It would have been a more natural pick. Moreover, Palutena is just way more popular. In the Smash 4 days, she rivaled Little Mac and Isaac for popularity.
- Why the **** is a Metroid here?!? It literally can't do the things Smash needs it to do. It can't manipulate items. It can't grab. The reason quadrupeds like Ivysaur work is that it has vines to actually use things. This reeks of not knowing the franchise and picking something vaguely recognizable. Dark Samus is a super important character (and is already a Metroid to boot). Raven Beak is taking the Metroid fandom by storm. I'd even respect Anthony as a WTF pick. But just a Metroid is ****ing lame. I'm the biggest Metroid guy I personally know and not even I could **** with this.
- Tom Nook is also based. Just not at the expense of Isabelle. Nintendo is not going to cut the most popular Animal Crossing character just to put in a less popular character.
- Bandana Waddle Dee and Frisk seem to be the only newcomers I take no issues with. Even then, I like most of these newcomers in theory, but they aren't shiny or exciting enough to make up for the apparent issues the roster has.
Now let's talk about cuts.
- Doc and Dark Pit are costumes, which if you're going to include, might as well be last minute echoes again.
- You actually kept first party franchises as a priority. No franchises are cut and I respect that. Based.
- You cut Rosalina, Daisy and the Plant. The Plant is is widely agreed upon to be a goner, but why on earth would you cut two of the most popular Mario characters in general? Daisy's an echo, she could at least be one here. Even if I love Jr., he's next on the chopping block after the Plant.
- You madman. You actually cut K.Rool. What were you thinking? Medusa could have been him.
- I already talked about my issues with Sheik. I also agree Young Link is the small Link that will get the boot.
- You cut Zero Suit Samus and Dark Samus. While not as drastic as some of the other character choices here, I doubt Zero Suit Samus will be cut due to seniority.
- You cut Jigglypuff for a less popular replacement. Pichu is predictably gone (lol). I can understand Squirtle, Ivysaur and even Incineroar being cut. There is a lot of Pokemon. I cannot overlook Greninja, one of the most popular Pokemon in general, being cut.
- I am going to ask why Lucas was deemed a higher priority than most of the cut characters. In my opinion, he's one of the more likely to go.
- You cut Roy, Ike, Lucina, Corrin and Chrom. Okay, Fire Emblem has a lot and I'm willing to give more leeway to these cuts just because its so unpredictable. We aren't losing Ike though. He's the most popular Fire Emblem character in Smash. Period. He's more popular than Marth, Robin AND Byleth. While I think Marth, Robin and Byleth should stay. Ike should also be in there (and Roy, but I won't knock him against you.)
- I already talked about Isabelle.
- Pyra/Mythra being cut seems odd. Especially since the logic behind it is that Xenoblade has more characters than another bigger franchise? That's not how roster selection works. Regardless, these two are popular, but I suppose I could see them being cut. (I don't like it though.)
- You just nuked the third parties. I understand having less than Ultimate. We got kind of insane near the end. I expect a lot less, but you cut Snake, Ryu, Ken, Cloud, Sephiroth, Bayonetta, Simon, Richter, Joker, Hero, Banjo and Kazooie, Terry, Steve, Kazuya and Sora. You only kept Sonic, Mega Man and Pac-Man and added Frisk. I'm going be honest and call out your bias here. You have a blatant distaste for anything that isn't cartoony and almost chibi (which would go with the strange assertions about Link.). Ryu and Bayonetta are most likely coming back no matter the roster size. Cloud, Hero, Banjo, Steve and Sora are likely to be high priorities. They literally pay for Bayonetta games out of their own pocket. We're going to have more third party veterans than this if we have a roster this big.
- All that said I can't really blame you for how many cuts you had. You're trying to cut down a roster that was originally 89 characters, smoosh it into one that is 51 characters and then add new characters while still keeping 51 characters. Logically that's darn near impossible. It's part of why I don't expect the next Smash to have the same amount as Smash 4's unless some major changes happen. I think we'll get around 65 characters.
Overall, as a serious roster, this isn't good. It reeks of bias and misunderstandings and assumptions of what several fanbases want. There wasn't much research done and if this was Smash 6's actual roster, it would cause an uproar. There are only two newcomers I have faith would go over well. If you're not familiar with a franchise, ask around. We have a great and knowledgeable community here who can tell you what unfamiliar fanbases might be saying.
If this was just a personal wishlist though, well more power to ya.
I'm sorry
Oracle Link
. I had to go nuclear just this once. If you don't want to read the roster criticism, feel free to ignore it. I'll put it in spoilers. I'll admit part of it got a little heated, but I did try to explain my reasoning while staying empathetic.
Schnee117
Too Majestic for Gender
Delzethin is right for the most part but I do take issue on two aspects.
1. A Smash 4 sized roster isn't conductive to as many reworks as he thinks and certainly not a lot of major ones like Ganondorf warrants.
2. SF6 is a weird comparison but not because it's following up SFV. SF has always reinvented itself with each game and this is true with a lot of fighting games, look at NRS' Mortal Kombat games. They're extremely successful but they keep mixing things up to keep things fresh. MK9 is very different to X which is also very different to 11 and will be very different to 1. And speaking of which, Mortal Kombat 9 is the better comparison to make, it actually followed up on an "Everyone is Here!" style game.
There's plenty I want to see given overhauls and the like but they need to be reasonable and you have to consider the extent of the reworks you want. 25 might be somewhat feasible if they were all relatively minor things like a better D-Smash on Marth/Lucina or altering Mac's parameters so he isn't inherently bottom tier anymore. But if it's wholesale overhauls like Ganondorf or major updates like Sonic and Samus then it's simply not a realistic proposition.
1. A Smash 4 sized roster isn't conductive to as many reworks as he thinks and certainly not a lot of major ones like Ganondorf warrants.
2. SF6 is a weird comparison but not because it's following up SFV. SF has always reinvented itself with each game and this is true with a lot of fighting games, look at NRS' Mortal Kombat games. They're extremely successful but they keep mixing things up to keep things fresh. MK9 is very different to X which is also very different to 11 and will be very different to 1. And speaking of which, Mortal Kombat 9 is the better comparison to make, it actually followed up on an "Everyone is Here!" style game.
25 is still a lot of characters to retool alongside making all new ones.
There's plenty I want to see given overhauls and the like but they need to be reasonable and you have to consider the extent of the reworks you want. 25 might be somewhat feasible if they were all relatively minor things like a better D-Smash on Marth/Lucina or altering Mac's parameters so he isn't inherently bottom tier anymore. But if it's wholesale overhauls like Ganondorf or major updates like Sonic and Samus then it's simply not a realistic proposition.
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Oracle Link
Smash Master
It isn't actually. Xenoblade has roughly sold the same amount. Exact numbers are iffy (with video game sales, they always are), but both franchises have sold around 6-8 million. Both have had almost their entire franchise ported to Switch and have recent games. I don't really understand how one is inherently more successful than the other.
Regardless, they're both C+ franchises. 1-2 characters is fair. Especially since you can't even determine who the Pikmin character would be. (There really isn't a good candidate as of now.)
Look I know FE seems to get a token character but at least do some research, Google is right there. If you're going for the most recent game, go for Alear. I'm not a fan of "token future rep" spots.
I love Impa, but we gotta stop cutting Sheik for her. It's reductive to Impa and hurts the roster as a whole. Zelda needs more one offs like Sheik, Skull Kid and Midna. They're already among the most popular character for the franchise anyways. It's the logical way forward since the barrier was broken once already.
Plus, Sheik is incredibly popular in the Smash fandom. Well, for the people who play the game anyways. Most Melee vets are.
I really, really like Impa. She's my personal choice for a Zelda newcomer. It annoys me that the fanbase seems to have no thoughts for her other than "yo let's cut Sheik and replace her with Impa, lol."
Link getting tweaks is fine and even appreciated, but Adult Link is going to be called Link. It's always how its been. Moreover, since Link is one of the most popular characters in Smash, his moveset staying consistent and accessible is a boon. It gives casuals someone to pick up and play. Smash skills translate between games.
Toon Link being included is dependent on the developers believing a smaller, faster Link is important. By the very nature of his moveset design, he is a variant. He will not take the moniker of Link. You need to stop pushing this idea. It is not going to be a thing.
Okay, this is actually something I hate about your roster.
You're trying to replace classic beloved characters with look-alikes, variants and would be echoes. This is not how you make a good roster.
This is how you get something similar to Soul Calibur V. In case you don't know, they replaced about half the cast with replacements and people absolutely despised it. The game did so poorly, it almost destroyed the franchise. Soul Calibur 6, while liked, is still recovering from V's wounds.
You might think this is a case of "modernization" or "better representation," but it isn't. It's doesn't sell the new characters because the question in everyone's mind is "why didn't they just bring back the old character?" It robs the new addition of any real inclusion because they're stuck doing someone else's homework.
- Toad is a based pick, but not over Rosalina. We wouldn't hear the end of it from Mario fans.
- Why is Medusa here? Kid Icarus is a dormant franchise and Medusa isn't particularly popular within the Kid Icarus fandom. If this is a silly attempt to add more villains, than why on earth was Kid Icarus chosen of all franchises? You could have included DJ Octavio if you're actually starved for villains. It would have been a more natural pick. Moreover, Palutena is just way more popular. In the Smash 4 days, she rivaled Little Mac and Isaac for popularity.
- Why the ** is a Metroid here?!? It literally can't do the things Smash needs it to do. It can't manipulate items. It can't grab. The reason quadrupeds like Ivysaur work is that it has vines to actually use things. This reeks of not knowing the franchise and picking something vaguely recognizable. Dark Samus is a super important character (and is already a Metroid to boot). Raven Beak is taking the Metroid fandom by storm. I'd even respect Anthony as a WTF pick. But just a Metroid is ***ing lame. I'm the biggest Metroid guy I personally know and not even I could * with this.
- Tom Nook is also based. Just not at the expense of Isabelle. Nintendo is not going to cut the most popular Animal Crossing character just to put in a less popular character.
- Bandana Waddle Dee and Frisk seem to be the only newcomers I take no issues with. Even then, I like most of these newcomers in theory, but they aren't shiny or exciting enough to make up for the apparent issues the roster has.
Now let's talk about cuts.
- Doc and Dark Pit are costumes, which if you're going to include, might as well be last minute echoes again.
- You actually kept first party franchises as a priority. No franchises are cut and I respect that. Based.
- You cut Rosalina, Daisy and the Plant. The Plant is is widely agreed upon to be a goner, but why on earth would you cut two of the most popular Mario characters in general? Daisy's an echo, she could at least be one here. Even if I love Jr., he's next on the chopping block after the Plant.
- You madman. You actually cut K.Rool. What were you thinking? Medusa could have been him.
- I already talked about my issues with Sheik. I also agree Young Link is the small Link that will get the boot.
- You cut Zero Suit Samus and Dark Samus. While not as drastic as some of the other character choices here, I doubt Zero Suit Samus will be cut due to seniority.
- You cut Jigglypuff for a less popular replacement. Pichu is predictably gone (lol). I can understand Squirtle, Ivysaur and even Incineroar being cut. There is a lot of Pokemon. I cannot overlook Greninja, one of the most popular Pokemon in general, being cut.
- I am going to ask why Lucas was deemed a higher priority than most of the cut characters. In my opinion, he's one of the more likely to go.
- You cut Roy, Ike, Lucina, Corrin and Chrom. Okay, Fire Emblem has a lot and I'm willing to give more leeway to these cuts just because its so unpredictable. We aren't losing Ike though. He's the most popular Fire Emblem character in Smash. Period. He's more popular than Marth, Robin AND Byleth. While I think Marth, Robin and Byleth should stay. Ike should also be in there (and Roy, but I won't knock him against you.)
- I already talked about Isabelle.
- Pyra/Mythra being cut seems odd. Especially since the logic behind it is that Xenoblade has more characters than another bigger franchise? That's not how roster selection works. Regardless, these two are popular, but I suppose I could see them being cut. (I don't like it though.)
- You just nuked the third parties. I understand having less than Ultimate. We got kind of insane near the end. I expect a lot less, but you cut Snake, Ryu, Ken, Cloud, Sephiroth, Bayonetta, Simon, Richter, Joker, Hero, Banjo and Kazooie, Terry, Steve, Kazuya and Sora. You only kept Sonic, Mega Man and Pac-Man and added Frisk. I'm going be honest and call out your bias here. You have a blatant distaste for anything that isn't cartoony and almost chibi (which would go with the strange assertions about Link.). Ryu and Bayonetta are most likely coming back no matter the roster size. Cloud, Hero, Banjo, Steve and Sora are likely to be high priorities. They literally pay for Bayonetta games out of their own pocket. We're going to have more third party veterans than this if we have a roster this big.
- All that said I can't really blame you for how many cuts you had. You're trying to cut down a roster that was originally 89 characters, smoosh it into one that is 51 characters and then add new characters while still keeping 51 characters. Logically that's darn near impossible. It's part of why I don't expect the next Smash to have the same amount as Smash 4's unless some major changes happen. I think we'll get around 65 characters.
Overall, as a serious roster, this isn't good. It reeks of bias and misunderstandings and assumptions of what several fanbases want. There wasn't much research done and if this was Smash 6's actual roster, it would cause an uproar. There are only two newcomers I have faith would go over well. If you're not familiar with a franchise, ask around. We have a great and knowledgeable community here who can tell you what unfamiliar fanbases might be saying.
If this was just a personal wishlist though, well more power to ya.
I'm sorry
That was like the best criticism ive ever Heard! (maybe giving a summary at the end would be neat tho!)
Some stuff is in fact Bias for Example Frisk that why i said they can be replaced by whatever Indie You like but i do have reasoning for frisk its because Undertale has like the one of the most dedicated fanbases in existence (They search in the code of the games)
Yeah Metroid? Well hes there for 2 reasons first ive watched lets plays of zero mission and metroid 2 so im familiar with the character and 2 he was the most wanted metroid rep for meele in japan! he scored well on the first ballot! But yeah i will replace him with either Dark Samus or Raven
When it comes to the MArio FRanchise I wont really change it too much so yeah no rosa i know mario and rosa is much less important toad is the main player 4 usually and appeared in almost all mario games! and bowser jr. had more important roles than the two other princesses (Also he has all koopalinmgs as alts) although thanks to wonder daisy might become a Voiced skin (Which is basically what she is other than some animations) on a revamped Peach
When it comes to sales i dont really count them im more taking into account the ammount of games but considering that pikmin reps could just be put in via captains as costumes and that xenoblade had 3 reps in ultimate i will probably add mio (I heard shes popular right)
When it comes to fe Peoples Opinions differ Greatly i was literally told opposite things from diffrent fe fans (Understandable its similar with link incarnations everyone has their own favourite) and the fe hidden slot wasnt meant for NEW GUY it could have been Whoever is loved in the fe Community because i dont know FE it is neat tho that the ammount seems to hit a sweet spot!
When it comes to the 2 links basically let me explain further So a lot of people wanted a "champion" Link aka Botw/ TOTK Link you have to get rid of almost all classic Link things for this like maybe "keep" Remote Bombs and Bow and Elemental Arrow Toon Link would basically have the old moveset because it makes no sense for him to be the one too change when TOTK and BOTW Are so diffrent i guess it would be confusing to flip them arround but yeah even so Toon Link would be "Classic" Link but dont get me wrong he would be less floaty, have some of the classic moves return (like triple overhead swing and dual forward Slice for the smashes) while also getting the sword beam and Jump Attack (the other Link still has those) so in essencse i can keep the Branding but Toon link is more classic!
I didnt go over everything here!
Some stuff is in fact Bias for Example Frisk that why i said they can be replaced by whatever Indie You like but i do have reasoning for frisk its because Undertale has like the one of the most dedicated fanbases in existence (They search in the code of the games)
Yeah Metroid? Well hes there for 2 reasons first ive watched lets plays of zero mission and metroid 2 so im familiar with the character and 2 he was the most wanted metroid rep for meele in japan! he scored well on the first ballot! But yeah i will replace him with either Dark Samus or Raven
When it comes to the MArio FRanchise I wont really change it too much so yeah no rosa i know mario and rosa is much less important toad is the main player 4 usually and appeared in almost all mario games! and bowser jr. had more important roles than the two other princesses (Also he has all koopalinmgs as alts) although thanks to wonder daisy might become a Voiced skin (Which is basically what she is other than some animations) on a revamped Peach
When it comes to sales i dont really count them im more taking into account the ammount of games but considering that pikmin reps could just be put in via captains as costumes and that xenoblade had 3 reps in ultimate i will probably add mio (I heard shes popular right)
When it comes to fe Peoples Opinions differ Greatly i was literally told opposite things from diffrent fe fans (Understandable its similar with link incarnations everyone has their own favourite) and the fe hidden slot wasnt meant for NEW GUY it could have been Whoever is loved in the fe Community because i dont know FE it is neat tho that the ammount seems to hit a sweet spot!
When it comes to the 2 links basically let me explain further So a lot of people wanted a "champion" Link aka Botw/ TOTK Link you have to get rid of almost all classic Link things for this like maybe "keep" Remote Bombs and Bow and Elemental Arrow Toon Link would basically have the old moveset because it makes no sense for him to be the one too change when TOTK and BOTW Are so diffrent i guess it would be confusing to flip them arround but yeah even so Toon Link would be "Classic" Link but dont get me wrong he would be less floaty, have some of the classic moves return (like triple overhead swing and dual forward Slice for the smashes) while also getting the sword beam and Jump Attack (the other Link still has those) so in essencse i can keep the Branding but Toon link is more classic!
I didnt go over everything here!
if youre asking why pokemon and fire emblem are not defined thats because i CANT Please everone so just imagine your favourites in these Spots for Now!
Still think if octavio or King K rool? Or Both?
Also Blue stays almost the same (other than stats and like 1 or 2 attacks)
Yellow is a light rework (Like 3-7 Attacks)
and red is a heavy rework (Keeps something but gets cahnged a lot!)
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Geno Boost
Smash Master
Man these rosters feels tasteless almost no character feels hype I trust Sakurai vision more
The fact that I see Terry missing despite how much SNK was willing to give out content is kinda disrespectful ngl
The fact that I see Terry missing despite how much SNK was willing to give out content is kinda disrespectful ngl
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Soy_Man
Smash Apprentice
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Y'all are gonna hate this, but here's a roster I made a while ago for a hypothetical Smash reboot.
If it's an entirely new game, with new mechanics, stages, gamemodes, movesets, visuals, newcomers, etc. then having the roster be the size of Smash 4's is a bit optimistic, and kinda toothless. So my roster has 40 characters, including DLC.
The "Pokemon" and "Fire Emblem" slots are placeholders. I'm sure you can make several arguments for why I should've kept some characters over others. In hindsight probably I should've included like 1 or 2 third party characters. Also cutting Meta Knight was dumb. The point is the roster has 40 characters, because I want dev time to be invested into other aspects of the game.
I don't know about you guys, but I personally don't need 90 characters to enjoy a fighting game. And if I do want that, I can still play Ultimate. I don't think a Smash sequel necessarily has to act as a replacement for the previous one.
Also there'd be the prospect that all these third party IPs, that are in Smash Ultimate, will eventually return in subsequent games.
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Removing the entire Earthbound franchise doesn't seem like a great idea - I still remember the backlash that "up until now" caused when it was used on Brawl's page for Lucas, and people took that as implying that Ness was being cut.
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MasterCheef
Smash Ace
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It is really Falco's reflector in particular , i cannont stand. Especially since i like ranged characters
Also Isabelle wouyld stay. Not certain why replacing Villager with Isabelle ruins it so much for you ?
Ness is from a 100% dead franchise , why not cut him ?
Mr. Game & Watch did get a rerelease, so maybe he could be kept. Game-play wise he feels too short and stubby.
Nabbitfan730
Smash Ace
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Ngl, all these rosters and cuts you guys are making are kinda depressing. It's funny how a roster of 40 characters can seem so small after everything so far. Especially those cuts.
Painful part about cuts. Honestly, I don't expect nor want Smash 6 to completely overhauled. Smash Ult gameplay and elements is good base to build upon from there like from Smash 4 and from Brawl and so forth.
It would be unnecessary effort and complete waste to throw all the work away.
These cuts are way too Nintendo-adjacent especially retro side. Other than Young Link and FE clones, these cuts would be terrible honestly. Villager makes no sense to cut especially with how big AC is today and other characters come from Nintendo franchises that don't have much of a presence nowadays. Some have become more synonymous with Smash than their own franchises like Ice Climbers and G&W. Seeing them go would suck.
Painful part about cuts. Honestly, I don't expect nor want Smash 6 to completely overhauled. Smash Ult gameplay and elements is good base to build upon from there like from Smash 4 and from Brawl and so forth.
It would be unnecessary effort and complete waste to throw all the work away.
Oracle Link
Smash Master
Honestly i would probably be more happy over a zelda only smash over like 8 zelda chars in smash so yeah!
However, the characters I would absolutely not want them to remove from the Super Smash Bros. series are Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B.. For Mario, Luigi, Link, Kirby, Pikachu and some others I'm sure they will NOT be removed from the Super Smash Bros. series.
MasterCheef
Smash Ace
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For the record , i definitely think we are getting SSBU Deluxe more likely than SSB6 sooner
Also Isabelle would stay. Not certain why replacing Villager with Isabelle ruins it so much for you ?
Why is . retro , a big deal if they are not relevant anymore ?
The franchise is finished not dead
I dunno a lot of indie games seem to be based on earthbound
Garteam
Smash Master
A Smash reboot with roster of about 50 characters could work in 5 to 7 years IF they just port Ultimate again and add on it in lieu of making a new Smash for the next Nintendo console. Basically, do what Marvel vs. Capcom 2 or Mario Kart 8 Deluxe did. You let enough time pass between entries following a completely massive game to the point where everyone is willing to accept an entry with less content because they just want something new generally.
I think the biggest issue with a focus on retooling veterans is that there really aren't enough characters that have movesets that feel significantly outdated or somewhat awkward, this was the best I could do in terms of who could be updated and how badly they need a rework:
I think the biggest issue with a focus on retooling veterans is that there really aren't enough characters that have movesets that feel significantly outdated or somewhat awkward, this was the best I could do in terms of who could be updated and how badly they need a rework:
- Really needs it:
- Could use a couple of new moves, but their foundation/playstyle is mostly fine:
- Could get new moves to reference new source material, but is more or less fine as is:
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MasterCheef
Smash Ace
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Reworks
- desperately needs it:
- should get a couple of new special moves, but their foundational playstyle is mostly fine:
- Could get new moves to reference new source material, but is more or less fine as is:
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Dropping Fire Emblem down to just Marth, Byleth, and Alear is the definition of an overcorrection. Genuinely, I don't think Fire Emblem is ever going to dip below five characters.
DarthEnderX
Smash Hero
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Reboot roster cuts discussion?
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In the event of an entirely new game, I'm okay with a smaller roster depending on where that energy is instead spent. I don't think characters should be reworked significantly outside of particularly dire outliers, just because plenty of people are as attached to their gameplay as they are their identity. But some better single player content? More fun side mechanics? Custom moves returning? I think I can stomach some cuts for that.
That being said some of the cuts being proposed here are completely insane. As a rule I'd say anyone that's been in three or more installments already should be immune to the axe. And hell, the only time a character has been cut after two was because of technical constraints after extensive attempts to make them work.
For as fun as Ultimate's more out-there newcomers are, I think I can accept them being one-time things if that energy is going to interesting places that need it more than the roster does.
That being said some of the cuts being proposed here are completely insane. As a rule I'd say anyone that's been in three or more installments already should be immune to the axe. And hell, the only time a character has been cut after two was because of technical constraints after extensive attempts to make them work.
For as fun as Ultimate's more out-there newcomers are, I think I can accept them being one-time things if that energy is going to interesting places that need it more than the roster does.
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Wonder Smash
Smash Champion
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Mr. Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Villager, both Toon and Young Link, Ness and Lucas (both Eartbound characters?), Falco, and...Little Mac? No...just no.
No offense but these cuts are just terrible and something I don't think Nintendo would ever consider.
MasterCheef
Smash Ace
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Please , explain ?
It is very annoying to keep getting these responses without an explanation.
they’re series staples and fan favourites and the like
ZephyrZ
But.....DRAGONS
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Here's my cut list.
1. Mario - That plumber has had it too good for too long. Dr.Mario stays though.
2. Pikachu - He's way too cutesy, people will think Pokemon is for kids or something.
3. Fox - Dead francise, but it's okay if he's cut because he'll be back in Melee HD.
4. Ganondorf - Retooling him is too much work, that effort would be better spent on adding a 4th Link.
5. Peach - "Oh did I win?" It's just that attitude of hers.
Anyway this is all just my opinion and you're not allowed to disagree.
1. Mario - That plumber has had it too good for too long. Dr.Mario stays though.
2. Pikachu - He's way too cutesy, people will think Pokemon is for kids or something.
3. Fox - Dead francise, but it's okay if he's cut because he'll be back in Melee HD.
4. Ganondorf - Retooling him is too much work, that effort would be better spent on adding a 4th Link.
5. Peach - "Oh did I win?" It's just that attitude of hers.
Anyway this is all just my opinion and you're not allowed to disagree.
Garteam
Smash Master
The big issue with cutting a lot of Ultimate's newcomers is that they represent unique franchises. The only non-echoes that came from series already in Smash were Ridley, K. Rool, Isabelle, Incineroar, Piranha Plant, Byleth, Sephiroth, and Pyra/Mythra. Cut anyone else, you lose that entire franchise. This gets even more complicated when you consider most of the new series added are from Third Parties and we've only had entry where Third Parties could either return or be cut, so there's little precedent here to refer to. We lost Snake in Smash for, but was that an intentional design choice or did Konami just not want to play ball?
My bold prediction is, short of a massive reboot that fundamentally changes Smash's gameplay, we'll get back every non-echo fighter from Sega, Capcom, Konami, and Namco Bandai. These companies are pretty liberal with licensing in general and they were all very generous in giving content to Ultimate. I'd also say Terry is a safe bet because SNK is similar in this regard, although he may be cut if Nintendo wants to limit the number of corporate partners they'd need for the next Smash. Square, Disney, and (to a lesser extent) Microsoft are the big question marks here IMO.
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Wonder Smash
Smash Champion
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It really shouldn't need any explanations in the first place. They're fan favorites and series staple.
I mean, you even cut Ness, character that's been in every game in the series? And from the most well-known game in his own series?
Zero Suit Samus? I remember seeing how fans were disappointed when Sakurai joked that she wasn't coming back for Smash 4 and you want to cut her for real?
Little Mac? One of the most wanted first-party characters from a well-loved Nintendo series and you want him cut? And after just two playable appearances?
A lot of these wrongs with these cuts besides just that ((such as Ice Climber and Mr. Game & Watch).
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