Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Indies, eh.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

I think Zagreus should also be mentioned as one of the likelier Indie reps. He did get a Spirit after all.

I guess I missed out on that, but I'm totally here for it! Hades is definitely one of the most standout games of the past few years, and there's a lot of fun to be had with that moveset. It'd be cool to see Palutena's Guidance for him, since they hail from two differing takes on the same religion.

I can't personally help but see Shovel Knight and Shantae as benefactors of the Smash 4 era of speculation, enough to get them into the positions they ended up with in Ultimate, but IMO not enough current momentum and excitement to make the jump over to playability over someone like Sans or perhaps Zagreus who seem to have more presence within the current discussion or climate. Or even a Crewmate. I just think the indie scene has grown quite a lot and outside of Undertale, Smash speculation hasn't really moved on from where it was over a decade ago.

I can get behind this sentiment but I feel as if applies a bit more to Shovel Knight than it does Shantae. The former tends to be brought up often in a "well he's Indie Mario" way and it does feel like a fair amount of the talk surrounding him is based around a perceived 'right of passage' he's undergone to be on the roster, but I also just see it as his game being established in relevance, and it being hard for a future project to match that notoriety.

Shantae, though honestly having fallen off a bit in recent years, is still pretty consistently one of the most popular newcomer suggestions I hear. This is totally anecdotal evidence, but I just feel like the people who discuss wanting her are more numerous and vocal about it, if that makes sense.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Indies, eh.

You know, I'm really curious about your opinion on this Golden, because I know FNAF things but I haven't actually played the games. What kind of music do you think would come with Freddy if he happened?

 

[Shinuto]

I guess I missed out on that, but I'm totally here for it! Hades is definitely one of the most standout games of the past few years, and there's a lot of fun to be had with that moveset. It'd be cool to see Palutena's Guidance for him, since they hail from two differing takes on the same religion.

I can get behind this sentiment but I feel as if applies a bit more to Shovel Knight than it does Shantae. The former tends to be brought up often in a "well he's Indie Mario" way and it does feel like a fair amount of the talk surrounding him is based around a perceived 'right of passage' he's undergone to be on the roster, but I also just see it as his game being established in relevance, and it being hard for a future project to match that notoriety.

Shantae, though honestly having fallen off a bit in recent years, is still pretty consistently one of the most popular newcomer suggestions I hear. This is totally anecdotal evidence, but I just feel like the people who discuss wanting her and more numerous and vocal about it, if that makes sense.

What the hell do you mean fell off she's consistently had new release ever since riskys revenge

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

What the hell do you mean fell off she's consistently had new release ever since riskys revenge

I mean as in attention. I'm aware she receives support, but I definitely don't hear about her as often as in the days of Half Genie Hero, y'know?

Could just be my not paying attention and she's actually like twice as popular though lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

You know, I'm really curious about your opinion on this Golden, because I know FNAF things but I haven't actually played the games. What kind of music do you think would come with Freddy if he happened?

Would have to be later games (and spin-offs like World) music-wise unless the music team turns ambience from the classic four games into something original like with the two Flat Zone tracks.

Maybe even some of the movie music if rights can be secured such as the main theme that I picture 0:42 picking up in Freddy's hypothetical trailer when we see gameplay footage.

 

[cashregister9]

I think Shantae and Shovel Knight are iconic and well known enough that they don't need to constantly be in the news to still have their impact. Cuphead, Celeste, and Touhou are all in that echelon of Indie games as well IMO.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I don't think Shantae's decreased in popularity as much as her status as a standout indie platformer/exploration title is a little less unique these days with the rise of similar indie titles in the genre. Even in the overly narrow superlative of "animal transformation oriented Metroidvanias" you can find games like Monster Boy & the Cursed Kingdom which have also stood out.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Would have to be later games (and spin-offs like World) music-wise unless the music team turns ambience from the classic four games into something original like with the two Flat Zone tracks.

Maybe even some of the movie music if rights can be secured such as the main theme that I picture 0:42 picking up in Freddy's hypothetical trailer when we see gameplay footage.

The only thing I'm like fairly certain about being there is Watch Your 6 (Ennard's theme) or like one of the Sister Location Custom Night tracks (Venta Black, Forbidden Nocturne, or Drag Me To The Crusher).

Would be really funny to get a remix of the Midnight Motorist theme (240 Bits Per Mile) remixed like how Tiger! Tiger! was for the Pyra/Mythra bunch, and I wouldn't say no to Stone Cold either lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The only thing I'm like fairly certain about being there is Watch Your 6 (Ennard's theme) or like one of the Sister Location Custom Night tracks (Venta Black, Forbidden Nocturne, or Drag Me To The Crusher).

Would be really funny to get a remix of the Midnight Motorist theme (240 Bits Per Mile) remixed like how Tiger! Tiger! was for the Pyra/Mythra bunch, and I wouldn't say no to Stone Cold either lol

I remember a remix of 240 Bits that I got hooked on a while back lol.

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think Shantae's decreased in popularity as much as her status as a standout indie platformer/exploration title is a little less unique these days with the rise of similar indie titles in the genre.

Well to be blunt, I don't think Shantae's support has ever quite been about the quality or freshness of her games. I enjoy them, but they aren't any kind of groundbreaking or influential formula. We can discuss how Shovel Knight changed the face of indie platformers from that point forward, but Shantae has always kind of been doing her own thing. Nothing wrong with that, but they result in pretty fun games of middling popularity.

Where she shines is in her character design, strikingly colorful and attractive in a way that makes her a compelling mascot, and her moveset potential as you've addressed here. For one reason or another Monster Boy hasn't captivated people the same way a character like Shantae has, so even with those niches being filled in her genre it doesn't make the character and her world feel redundant. The Jake Kaufman jams aren’t half bad either.

It’s just that her games were never that tremendously popular in the first place, so the last couple are not receiving inescapable buzz the way titans like UNDERTALE or CUPHEAD are because they’re mostly playing to a small dedicated group of fans these days. I don’t mean to talk down about Shantae, I still like the character and again I’ve enjoyed her games, but the reality is that Shantae is not an icon driven by her innovation or contribution to the industry. She was kind of in the right place at the right time, she can turn into animals, and she’s hot. All well and good but it makes the conversation around her a bit different.

 

[Shinuto]

I don't think Shantae's decreased in popularity as much as her status as a standout indie platformer/exploration title is a little less unique these days with the rise of similar indie titles in the genre. Even in the overly narrow superlative of "animal transformation oriented Metroidvanias" you can find games like Monster Boy & the Cursed Kingdom which have also stood out.

Not like there isn't a plethora of nes throwback indie titles like Shovel knight...

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Not like there isn't a plethora of nes throwback indie titles like Shovel knight...

I mean I don't think Shovel Knight is necessarily getting a playable character in the next Smash either and to a degree that series and Shantae are at similar points: somewhat diminished position from the scene being so much more competitive now but still maintaining a degree of fame and momentum because of their grandfathered status of sorts.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I remember a remix of 240 Bits that I got hooked on a while back lol.

Honestly FNAF in Smash is a really funny thing to think about for me, because it's like how would you set up a trailer to make it so that Freddy gets the invite, and it'd be really funny seeing Smash sorta tiptoe around the idea of... you know, how Freddy and the gang are moving to begin with, especially since you'd pretty much have to make Purple Guy/Springtrap/William into some kind of collectible.

You know what else I think would be a really funny way to do it? A Fredbear Mii Costume, like the original springlock suits from the first location lol

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If anything, I'm hoping that the Mii costumes having the music encourages more Music DLC or Mii Costumes with Music. Sans, Cuphead and Shantae having music was great. It's a shame it didn't happen with some of the 3rd Party costumes like Lloyd, Dante, Altair, Bomberman, etc.

I think music DLC in general should be a thing, tons of games do it its not weird.

A few extra Street fighter songs, a few extra Megaman ones. That'd be cool.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Honestly FNAF in Smash is a really funny thing to think about for me, because it's like how would you set up a trailer to make it so that Freddy gets the invite, and it'd be really funny seeing Smash sorta tiptoe around the idea of... you know, how Freddy and the gang are moving to begin with, especially since you'd pretty much have to make Purple Guy/Springtrap/William into some kind of collectible.

You know what else I think would be a really funny way to do it? A Fredbear Mii Costume, like the original springlock suits from the first location lol

I'm just picturing the localization team going all in on memes and throwing in a reference to Afton being THE MAN BEHIND THE SLAUGHTER.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Exactly! I think he is an anti-hero in later games like the Wario Land games, but he was a villain in that game you mentioned. Even if that changed later, that could have added some to why Sakurai made Wario a villain in Subspace.

He actually didn't change much at all.

The only reason he's a "hero" is because Mario isn't his target anymore and he ends up accidentally saving the world when all he wants is money.

 

[Dinoman96]

I definitely agree that Shovel Knight and Shantae are kinda funny little relics of that late stage Wii U era when the Smash ballot was cast, that period when third parties had completely left Nintendo for dead and all they had left for the most part, were smaller indie devs like Wayforward and Yacht Club Games, which obviously gave their games/characters more visibility to the die hard Nintendo loyalists that actually bought the Wii U.

Can't really see them being playable, but I do echo that Shantae should at least be made an assist trophy for her troubles.

 

[Wario Bros.]

I just finished watching the complete series of Captain N: The Game Master and now I would've love to see Captain N in Super Smash Bros.

Unfortunately, I'm giving him a 0% chance due to not originating from a video game and no exposure outside of America.

 

[Shinuto]

I just finished watching the complete series of Captain N: The Game Master and now I would've love to see Captain N in Super Smash Bros.

Unfortunately, I'm giving him a 0% chance due to not originating from a video game and no exposure outside of America.

Uhh captain N is a dork

 

[RileyXY1]

I just finished watching the complete series of Captain N: The Game Master and now I would've love to see Captain N in Super Smash Bros.

Unfortunately, I'm giving him a 0% chance due to not originating from a video game and no exposure outside of America.

I headcanon that he's in the game already as the unseen "hunter" alongside the Duck Hunt duck and dog.

 

[Wonder Smash]

You know, I'm JUST realizing that ASW recently announced this:

With the way the River City series is getting new games and re-releases, a playable representation makes that much more sense in the next Smash game.

 

[Shinuto]

My ideal indie selection assume all got in the next game would be Quote, Shovel Knight, Shantae, Reimu, Cuphead, Sans, and Zagreus.

 

[SharkLord]

We know that Smash 4's DLC costumes resulted in a number of eventual newcomers such as Inkling, King K. Rool, Isabelle and Chrom. Although I find it quite striking how these characters were all first party. Smash's general climate has changed over time to normalize its crossover potential, but even so this makes me a bit hesitant to throw much confidence behind third party costumes added by virtue of popularity. Geno and Lloyd's roles remained stagnant, for example.

I think it's worth noting that the third-party presence absolutely exploded in Ultimate, so there's suddenly a lot more options available. That might skew the results a bit, as with all those options the specific chances of anyone getting added gets slim. It's also worth noting that many of the promoted Miis you mentioned were in the base game, which were based on the ballot results. Third-parties had more of a presence in the DLC; the ballot had some influence on it, but not to the same degree as the base roster.

Plus, the DLC led to a surge of support for various third-parties, as they're now seen as significantly more viable regardless of Nintendo connections (Plus the Switch getting tons of third-party support in general). The general speculation landscape is just shifted compared to Smash 4, so I'm willing to be open to Miis getting promoted.

I'll also add that one Mii was almost added, but missed out - Heihachi. Sakurai's stated he went with Kazuya as the Tekken rep because of his Devil Gene powers, meaning Heihachi was in consideration but ultimately scrapped for moveset reasons. Heihachi also cameo'd in Pac-Man's Bamco sprite taunt, so it seems like Sakurai viewed him as the primary Tekken character up until he had to design a moveset. I guess that sorta counts as a promotion? It's a promotion for Tekken as a series, at least, but not Heihachi himself. It's at least worth noting, I think

 

[Louie G.]

Plus, the DLC led to a surge of support for various third-parties, as they're now seen as significantly more viable regardless of Nintendo connections (Plus the Switch getting tons of third-party support in general). The general speculation landscape is just shifted compared to Smash 4, so I'm willing to be open to Miis getting promoted.

Well yes, I'm open to it, but I'm wary of people using it as a hard piece of evidence. Because yeah, the gates have swung open further than before, but third party Mii Costumes being something of a foreshadow of things to come has no precedent yet. The Heihachi costume is true. Although the extra layer to this is Heihachi was under consideration as far back as Smash 4, so this costume felt like something of a special consolation for Sakurai's inability to come up with something satisfying at the time. I'd say that concrete info, knowing that Sakurai was already interested in making a Tekken character, was a more compelling piece of evidence to suggest one later on than simply saying Heihachi had a costume, if you get what I mean.

My unspoken point is that I just think people oversimplify the situation. I've seen a lot of people shrug and say this character got a costume, and Sakurai said they're popular, so they're likely. I'm not taking a hard stance and saying none of them are happening. But I'm willing to be the devil's advocate that encourages people to think beyond surface level and not fall into the same traps we always do, because what past precedent does tell us is that a Mii Costume is not always an indication of priority.

If you want my quick thoughts / predictions on all of the ones I mentioned though...

• Sans will be playable due to the overwhelming reception to his costume and omnipresence of Undertale oversea
• Dante is potentially Capcom's frontrunner on account of his visible popularity through Ultimate's DLC cycle, shared equally between east and west
• Dovahkiin is a wildcard, I literally don't know what to say about him
• Lloyd got passed over twice so it's hard to say. But we're running out of prominent RPG series so Tales may be on deck. I think Dark Souls takes priority
• Shantae will be acknowledged as an Assist Trophy similarly to Shovel Knight
• Doom Slayer will be snubbed in favor of Master Chief as Smash 6 DLC, who was too much of a pull to negotiate for a Mii Costume

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

My unspoken point is that I just think people oversimplify the situation. I've seen a lot of people shrug and say this character got a costume, and Sakurai said they're popular, so they're likely. I'm not taking a hard stance and saying none of them are happening. But I'm willing to be the devil's advocate that encourages people to think beyond surface level and not fall into the same traps we always do, because what past precedent does tell us is that a Mii Costume is not always an indication of priority.

I know you mentioned this about third parties mostly because there's no precedent yet for third party Mii Costumes meaning a character as opposed to stuff like K. Rool, Chrom, Isabelle, and Inklings in Smash 4, but man this is just making me think about how rough it's gonna feel if Isaac STILL isn't playable next game based on what he has now.

• He has a Mii Costume now, potentially giving him that angle.
• His Assist Trophy returned after being absent in 4, and with new abilities to boot. Ever since they were introduced in Brawl we've been getting Assist Trophy upgrades (Little Mac, Isabelle, Dark Samus).
• The complete lack of meaningful content in Smash 4 compared to the breadth of content in Ultimate including the highest number of Spirits for a non-playable franchise, especially when considering how close together they were developed.
• All of this points to Isaac doing well on the Ballot, but he didn't really fit in with the other newcomers, who were all popular extensions of franchises already present (Ridley, K. Rool, Dark Samus, Chrom, Daisy), more contemporary picks (Isabelle, Incineroar, Byleth, Pyra/Mythra, Min Min), and third parties.

Like seriously, if he doesn't happen, I'm gonna feel so bad for the Isaac fanbase, genuinely.

 

[Dukefire]

I mean as in attention. I'm aware she receives support, but I definitely don't hear about her as often as in the days of Half Genie Hero, y'know?

Could just be my not paying attention and she's actually like twice as popular though lol

Shantae is an indie character that pops in and out every so often. She has 6 titles, but takes usually 6-7 years before another one appears.

It kind make it worse that her unreleased sequel to the GBC origins will be available for GBA first before other consoles. Still, she has a constant notice to the community despite her game releases being years apart.

 

[SharkLord]

But I'm willing to be the devil's advocate that encourages people to think beyond surface level and not fall into the same traps we always do, because what past precedent does tell us is that a Mii Costume is not always an indication of priority.

Yeah, that's fair. I'd say still say costumes are worth considering, but like you said, they can just as easily go nowhere

If you want my quick thoughts / predictions on all of the ones I mentioned though...

• Sans will be playable due to the overwhelming reception to his costume and omnipresence of Undertale oversea
• Dante is potentially Capcom's frontrunner on account of his visible popularity through Ultimate's DLC cycle, shared equally between east and west
• Dovahkiin is a wildcard, I literally don't know what to say about him
• Lloyd got passed over twice so it's hard to say. But we're running out of prominent RPG series so Tales may be on deck. I think Dark Souls takes priority
• Shantae will be acknowledged as an Assist Trophy similarly to Shovel Knight
• Doom Slayer will be snubbed in favor of Master Chief as Smash 6 DLC, who was too much of a pull to negotiate for a Mii Costume

Honestly I've grown to doubt the idea that each company can only have one new rep per game/cycle. Snake and both Belmonts were negotiated from scratch for Ultimate, there's a good chance Steve and Banjo were in talks at similar times, and there doesn't seem to be too much issue snagging a bunch of Miis and ATs alongside the characters. Hell, do we even know if ATs are priced differently from full fighters? Regardless of whether or not we can play as them, that's still pretty clearly Akira Yuki and Bomberman running around on the stage; Ninty's gonna have to pay for them regardless.

And either way, many of these fighters have completely different gameplay styles and demographic appeal from each other - Take Bamco out of the equation and assume you can fit in both, how much does Lloyd Irving have in common with Solaire or the Chosen Undead or whoever? They have a sword and are from RPGs where you run around and hit things, and that's kinda it. If one is snubbed, I don't think it's because Nintendo has a hard limit on how many fighters a company can have; I think it's just that there's only so many fighters that can be added at a time, so space is somewhat limited.

Too long, didn't read version - I don't think companies are limited to one fighter at a time, and I don't think fighters are jostling for space just because they're from the same company

 

[Louie G.]

Too long, didn't read version - I don't think companies are limited to one fighter at a time, and I don't think fighters are jostling for space just because they're from the same company

Yeah, I wasn't particularly saying as much but was acknowledging if push did come to shove that I think the next RPG series on deck is Dark Souls or Elden Ring. Tales could easily coexist with that, but Ultimate blew through Persona, Dragon Quest, a second Final Fantasy character and Kingdom Hearts... well goodie, less competition for Lloyd assuming they would like to achieve some semblance of diverse appeal, but it still means that despite Lloyd's costume all the way back in Smash 4 they aren't in too much of a rush to add him.

So I don't really have like, a firm opinion on inter-company competition myself, but I do think obviously the line has to be drawn somewhere. I've been a pretty strong advocate for allowing certain companies to spread out if they have the wealth of potential to do so - Sega, Capcom and Namco can keep adding characters and I wouldn't mind. Lloyd and Chosen Undead could coexist quite easily.

Simply in the context of "what's next" I'm questioning whether the answer is Lloyd or not.

 

[RileyXY1]

Yeah, that's fair. I'd say still say costumes are worth considering, but like you said, they can just as easily go nowhere


Honestly I've grown to doubt the idea that each company can only have one new rep per game/cycle. Snake and both Belmonts were negotiated from scratch for Ultimate, there's a good chance Steve and Banjo were in talks at similar times, and there doesn't seem to be too much issue snagging a bunch of Miis and ATs alongside the characters. Hell, do we even know if ATs are priced differently from full fighters? Regardless of whether or not we can play as them, that's still pretty clearly Akira Yuki and Bomberman running around on the stage; Ninty's gonna have to pay for them regardless.

And either way, many of these fighters have completely different gameplay styles and demographic appeal from each other - Take Bamco out of the equation and assume you can fit in both, how much does Lloyd Irving have in common with Solaire or the Chosen Undead or whoever? They have a sword and are from RPGs where you run around and hit things, and that's kinda it. If one is snubbed, I don't think it's because Nintendo has a hard limit on how many fighters a company can have; I think it's just that there's only so many fighters that can be added at a time, so space is somewhat limited.

Too long, didn't read version - I don't think companies are limited to one fighter at a time, and I don't think fighters are jostling for space just because they're from the same company

And technically it was already broken in FP2 as there were two Square Enix reps. Both Sephiroth and Sora were added, although Sora was an added extra who had an extra spot saved for him due to him being the winner of the Smash Ballot.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In hindsight I'm surprised we didn't have some pedantic types online suggesting that the only way for a company to get multiple reps in one generation from one third party company was through different internal divisions and that being the new subjective rule bandied about for a while:

"We got several new Square Enix reps in Smash Ultimate's lifetime"

"Um actually Sephiroth was really Squaresoft, Hero was really Enix, and Sora was really Disney, so in many ways they're from separate places."

"Seriously?"

"Yes, it's why if we get a Microsoft character, one must be Bethesda, one must be Rare, and one must be Activision. It all makes complete sense."

"...No, it doesn't."

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

In hindsight I'm surprised we didn't have some pedantic types online suggesting that the only way for a company to get multiple reps in one generation from one third party company was through different internal divisions and that being the new subjective rule bandied about for a while:

"We got several new Square Enix reps in Smash Ultimate's lifetime"

"Um actually Sephiroth was really Squaresoft, Hero was really Enix, and Sora was really Disney, so in many ways they're from separate places."

"Seriously?"

"Yes, it's why if we get a Microsoft character, one must be Bethesda, one must be Rare, and one must be Activision. It all makes complete sense."

"...No, it doesn't."

Now that you said that, it's totally going to happen.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Obligatory Dezethin Upload

 

[HyperSomari64]

"Um actually Sephiroth was really Squaresoft, Hero was really Enix, and Sora was really Disney, so in many ways they're from separate places."

How about Taito?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

"If you can guess what the title is gonna be, by the way this game will actually start, as a matter of fact this screen also brings back memories for me as well. I'm sure it does for some of you and I'm sure you're dating yourself by saying that you remember. I don't if you remember this particular opening, this was actually on the original N64 game as well when it was loading the game. Of course, I'm not a very good player even there. Game is powered by Nintendo, its Ridge Racer 64!

Riiiiiidge Racer 64, remember that one?"

 

[RodNutTakin]

Obligatory Dezethin Upload

I do not feel like going through another Delze upload right, please TL;DR the list of 30 ways so I can respond to this faster.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

If you can guess what the title is gonna be, by the way this game will actually start, as a matter of fact this screen also brings back memories for me as well. I'm sure it does for some of you and I'm sure you're dating yourself by saying that you remember. I don't if you remember this particular opening, this was actually on the original N64 game as well when it was loading the game. Of course, I'm not a very good player even there. Game is powered by Nintendo, its Ridge Racer 64!

Riiiiiidge Racer 64, remember that one?

This was a childhood favorite of mine, so many memories came back watching this. I’m actually pretty excited to play this again, what a pleasant surprise.

Can we get some Ridge Racer music in the next Smash? This series has some killer songs.

 

[Kirbeh]

I do not feel like going through another Delze upload right, please TL;DR the list of 30 ways so I can respond to this faster.

Watch it at 2x speed, then it's only 10 mins

 

[Guynamednelson]

This was a childhood favorite of mine, so many memories came back watching this. I’m actually pretty excited to play this again, what a pleasant surprise.

Can we get some Ridge Racer music in the next Smash? This series has some killer songs.

This one would've been more likely to play on Pac-Land if RR64 had actually gotten a Japanese release. Which they'll hopefully do with it coming to NSO.turns out they didn't

 

[CannonStreak]

He actually didn't change much at all.

The only reason he's a "hero" is because Mario isn't his target anymore and he ends up accidentally saving the world when all he wants is money.

Sure, though I meant Wario going from villain to anti-hero. Still, his negative qualities have not change at all as you may have said.