Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Captain Shwampy]

I probably should of said Bowser and Donkey Kong to avoid all the "UM ACTUALLSHLY" replies

 

[DarthEnderX]

I mean he has an accent in Smash sure, but it's nowhere near as pronounced as the anime's.

And it doesn't sound Spanish. It sounds like a Japanese speaker reading English lines.

 

[Will]

I probably should of said Bowser and Donkey Kong to avoid all the "UM ACTUALLSHLY" replies

um actuallshly, everyone knows donkey kong’s voice is Richard Yearwood showering the cast in coconut crème pies

 

[Kirbeh]

Smash MK doesn't sound castellano or lat

Gold's mention of Darth Vader is probably the closest comparison imo.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

The funniest thing with the Kirby character bit is technically Sakurai DID have a part in Bandana Dee's original appearance. It's in his favorite game to pull from, no less!

View attachment 398424

I still really want Megaton Punch as his Final Smash as a nod to this because he's the P2 in it, so he's firmly capable of punching Pop Star in twain.

Instead of his Final Smash, I wonder if they'd make it his down special. A downward punch that hits hard if timed correctly.

Funnily enough, it would make Dee the third Kirby character with a high risk, high reward special move.

 

[Shinuto]

You can clearly hear the spanish accent.

No you can't stop saying that

 

[Perkilator]

I just came across a great idea for a potential story mode that would also lend itself well to a rougelike format.

 

[Gengar84]

I just came across a great idea for a potential story mode that would also lend itself well to a rougelike format.

Yeah, that could be pretty interesting. I hadn’t really considered something like that. My general idea was something pretty simple taking a page out of the stories in the Final Fantasy Dissidia games. In those games, a goddess called Cosmos assembles an army of heroes from across the franchise to battle Chaos’s army of villains. If I remember correctly, all the characters were summoned to this neutral plane to fight. I think Palutena and Hades are basically the perfect counterparts to Cosmos and Chaos. Obviously, you’d expand the story a bit from there to give the individual characters some agency and interaction but I think it works well as a general premise for a crossover. This would require a lot more villains to at least somewhat balance out the armies but I’m always down for more villains in Smash.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, that could be pretty interesting. I hadn’t really considered something like that. My general idea was something pretty simple taking a page out of the stories in the Final Fantasy Dissidia games. In those games, a goddess called Cosmos assembles an army of heroes from across the franchise to battle Chaos’s army of villains. If I remember correctly, all the characters were summoned to this neutral plane to fight. I think Palutena and Hades are basically the perfect counterparts to Cosmos and Chaos. Obviously, you’d expand the story a bit from there to give the individual characters some agency and interaction but I think it works well as a general premise for a crossover. This would require a lot more villains to at least somewhat balance out the armies but I’m always down for more villains in Smash.

Doesn’t need to be a nearly-even split like Dissidia

A lot of heroes could be mind-controlled and/or the villains could have mooks in SSE-like platforming stages so they’d have the numbers advantage

 

[Gengar84]

Doesn’t need to be a nearly-even split like Dissidia

A lot of heroes could be mind-controlled and/or the villains could have mooks in SSE-like platforming stages so they’d have the numbers advantage

Yeah, that’s true. You could also group the antiheroes and morally ambiguous characters like Metaknight and Dedede with the villains for the purpose of balancing. Like in Subspace Emissary, they could eventually join your side. In SSE, even the pure villains like Ganondorf eventually joined your side to fight Tabuu. You could do something like that again with the more ambiguous characters joining first.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Yeah, that’s true. You could also group the antiheroes and morally ambiguous characters like Metaknight and Dedede with the villains for the purpose of balancing. Like in Subspace Emissary, they could eventually join your side. In SSE, even the pure villains like Ganondorf eventually joined your side to fight Tabuu. You could do something like that again with the more ambiguous characters joining first.

Then there is Wario who was out of character in Subspace.

It was never explained why he was evil in Subspace outside of the official website saying that he enjoys it despite not caring about the actual objective.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Then there is Wario who was out of character in Subspace.

It was never explained why he was evil in Subspace outside of the official website saying that he enjoys it despite not caring about the actual objective.

It's as the VB Wario Land commercial says; "he's the epitome of evil".


Though if you tweak it to add "Ganondorf manipulated Wario by offering him payment for each Trophy", then it makes complete sense while still keeping in line of "Wario is doing what he wants and doesn't care about the objective".

 

[Thegameandwatch]

Though if you tweak it to add "Ganondorf manipulated Wario by offering him payment for each Trophy", then it makes complete sense while still keeping in line of "Wario is doing what he wants and doesn't care about the objective".

That’s the most likely explanation if it was ever mentioned.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Then there is Wario who was out of character in Subspace.

It was never explained why he was evil in Subspace outside of the official website saying that he enjoys it despite not caring about the actual objective.

Well you see, when Mario and Wario were kids they'd always play cowboys, but Wario was never allowed to be the sheriff and he's hated Mario ever since...

(Yes, that was Wario's villain origin story in one of the old comics).

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

That’s the most likely explanation if it was ever mentioned.

It was never stated by Sakurai himself, but it's just a logical endgoal to suit Wario since we never learn why exactly Wario wants to turn people into Trophies if it's not because it's what Ganondorf/"Master Hand" needs him to do.

With how Wario works, he's gotta get something out of the things he does, and that "something" typically is riches. So the entire setup is just vague enough to fill in the blanks with what we know about him.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

I think Sakurai sees Wario as a villain. I mean from his Smash 4 trophy description…

“A living embodiment of gross, this villain hates Mario and loves money. He claims to have known Mario since childhood, but who can tell if that's true? In Smash Bros., he's a seriously agile heavyweight fighter. He can store up his trademark Wario Waft for explosive results. Did I mention he's gross?”

This could be just an out-of-Japan translation, but even then, with this, it could still make sense, if by a lesser amount.

 

[Gengar84]

I think Sakurai sees Wario as a villain. I mean from his Smash 4 trophy description…

“A living embodiment of gross, this villain hates Mario and loves money. He claims to have known Mario since childhood, but who can tell if that's true? In Smash Bros., he's a seriously agile heavyweight fighter. He can store up his trademark Wario Waft for explosive results. Did I mention he's gross?”

This could be just an out-of-Japan translation, but even then, with this, it could still make sense, if by a lesser amount.

Wasn’t Wario initially created as a villain in Super Mario Land 2? I’ve never played much of that game so I don’t know if he was outright villainous or just an antagonist in his debut game.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Wasn’t Wario initially created as a villain in Super Mario Land 2? I’ve never played much of that game so I don’t know if he was outright villainous or just an antagonist in his debut game.

Exactly! I think he is an anti-hero in later games like the Wario Land games, but he was a villain in that game you mentioned. Even if that changed later, that could have added some to why Sakurai made Wario a villain in Subspace.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Wasn’t Wario initially created as a villain in Super Mario Land 2? I’ve never played much of that game so I don’t know if he was outright villainous or just an antagonist in his debut game.

In Mario Land 2 he took over Mario’s castle (since when did Mario have his own castle?) and gave the titular 6 Golden Coins to various bosses around the land to stop Mario from unlocking the door to get back in. When Mario finally got back inside his castle, Wario had filled it with deadly traps, and then he also fought Mario.

Stealing someone’s real estate out of greed and then trying to kill them once they return definitely seems villainous.

 

[Kirbeh]

Wasn’t Wario initially created as a villain in Super Mario Land 2? I’ve never played much of that game so I don’t know if he was outright villainous or just an antagonist in his debut game.

He was a villain in his first appearance. He takes over Mario's castle (yes Mario has a castle that is never seen again.) He also cast a spell on all the other in game inhabitants to control them.

His role as a villain sort of begins and ends with that game though. Afterward he's more of a "jerk rival."

Edit: 'd

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Another thing I noticed: Isn’t the “Wa” in Wario supposed to mean “bad” in Japanese? I mean, Wario is more so an anti-hero now, but he still has bad qualities, like greed, being close and all. Just couldn’t help but notice.

 

[RileyXY1]

Another thing I noticed: Isn’t the “Wa” in Wario supposed to mean “bad” in Japanese? I mean, Wario is more so an anti-hero now, but he still has bad qualities, like greed, being close and all. Just couldn’t help but notice.

Yeah. His name combines the Japanese word "waru" which means "bad" or "evil" and Mario's name, so his name essentially means "Evil Mario". The same goes for Waluigi.

 

[CosmicEternity44]

Yeah. His name combines the Japanese word "waru" which means "bad" or "evil" and Mario's name, so his name essentially means "Evil Mario". The same goes for Waluigi.

Of course.

My point is that while Wario is more anti-hero now, he is, in a way, fitting for that role in Subspace, even if not completely. I think his negative qualities can add to that some.

 

[smashkirby]

Then there is Wario who was out of character in Subspace.

It was never explained why he was evil in Subspace outside of the official website saying that he enjoys it despite not caring about the actual objective.

If anything, I would have found something like 'Wario was offered an "insurmountable" sum of cash for helping the Subspace Army', to be more plausible as an explanation to Wario's actions more than Wario was just being an 'agent of chaos' throughout that whole mess.

Bonus points if (had my idea been a thing) King Dedede offered Wario even MORE than anything the Subspace Army (read: Ganondorf) was willing to pay Wario near the end of the story so as to convince him to help them stop Tabuu.

 

[NotGenerico]

Microsoft announced that Forza Horizon 5 is getting a PS5 port soon.

I think it really is just a matter of time until the Master Chief Collection is announced for the PS5 and Nintendo Switch 2. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on April's Nintendo Direct.

 

[Louie G.]

Lately I'm thinking about Ultimate's DLC Mii Costumes. People like to bring some of these up to address potential fan-favorites on the radar to add next game, characters to keep an eye on etc and I'm curious where everyone stands on which ones are primed for entry.

We know that Smash 4's DLC costumes resulted in a number of eventual newcomers such as Inkling, King K. Rool, Isabelle and Chrom. Although I find it quite striking how these characters were all first party. Smash's general climate has changed over time to normalize its crossover potential, but even so this makes me a bit hesitant to throw much confidence behind third party costumes added by virtue of popularity. Geno and Lloyd's roles remained stagnant, for example.

There are a few costumes that were acknowledged to be fan favorites. Sans, Lloyd, Dovahkiin, Dante and Shantae. And I'm going to assume Doom Slayer is an extension of that as well. I think some of these are names worth keeping an eye on, but I personally hesitate to put much explicit stock in the gesture alone. Third parties are more susceptible to shifts in priority and focus, new opportunities that were perhaps less plausible to incorporate as a Mii Costume in time or didn't fit a specific Mii class. One character being here and another not has a multitude of explanations so I don't consider it necessarily say, an endorsement of Doomguy over Master Chief or Dante over Jill / Leon. At least not inherently, yknow?

The Mii Costume whose influence I take to heart the most is Sans. And that's simply because in addition to being added as a fan favorite character, he is undoubtedly the best selling Mii costume or at least close to it. None of the others garnered this level of community buzz nearing that of a playable character, enough for many fans and fanartists to start treating Sans like a member of the Smash family. It was a very unique response that I think is worth discussing beyond the simple presence of the costume. I'm sure some of these others sold well too - this is just the only one I feel confident enough to speak on.

As a side note, I've never heard anyone bring up this interesting piece. There were only a handful of first party costumes sold as DLC, two of which were bonus costumes for buying the Fighter Passes (Rex and the Ancient Soldier). The other was an ARMS costume to accompany Min-Min. There were four others, split between two challenger packs... all from Splatoon. Callie and Marie were added in CP6, and then Octoling and Judd in CP11. What does this mean? Well, I dunno, but I do think it's very alarming that Splatoon received this much specific attention. Especially contextualizing the way Smash 4's first party Mii Costumes served as something of an omen of things to come, I think this further emphasizes just how big of a glow-up Splatoon is set to have in our next game.

TLDR: I'm hesitant to put too much stock in the Mii Costumes deemed popular / fan-favorites, outside of Sans whose success speaks for itself through a unique level of community engagement and support. Splatoon having four DLC Mii Costumes is worth acknowledging as a prospect of things to come, being the only first party series given this treatment and the one with perhaps the greatest level of growth over the last however many years.

 

[BuckleyTim]

What about those random team rocket mii costumes, do those count as first party?

 

[Louie G.]

What about those random team rocket mii costumes, do those count as first party?

Oh yeah, I guess that counts too. So one goes to Pokemon as well - pretty weird pull, but those were fun costumes.

Here's what we got from the Nintendo side then:
- Ancient Soldier Gear
- Team Rocket
- Rex
- Callie, Marie, Octoling, Judd
- Ninjara

 

[Gengar84]

I am curious how much of San’s Mii sales were due to him being a deluxe Mii that came with an awesome song. I personally never really cared much about Undertale but Sans was one of the very few Mii outfits I bought due to those things. I know Undertale is very popular and he would have likely sold a ton either way but I wonder if it would still be far and away the best selling outfit if he was just a standard Mii costume like most of the others.

 

[The Prankster 16]

I do think Undertale getting bigger representation is very likely for the next game, and I think if they got a character Sans would be the one Sakurai chooses. My only setback is that I just don't see him having a fun or interesting moveset. I've seen mods that give him a unique one in both Brawl and Ultimate, and they just seem clunky and not really "Smash-like."

 

[Louie G.]

I am curious how much of San’s Mii sales were due to him being a deluxe Mii that came with an awesome song. I personally never really cared much about Undertale but Sans was one of the very few Mii outfits I bought due to those things. I know Undertale is very popular and he would have likely sold a ton either way but I wonder if it would still be far and away the best selling outfit if he was just a standard Mii costume like most of the others.

I'm sure Megalovania helped incentivize some people, but it doesn't account for the attention and praise dealt toward Sans and the costume itself.

Being a deluxe Mii definitely helped, but by just how much is hard to quantify when the alternative is "what if it looked nothing like Sans and was just a hoodie / Gaster Blaster". I feel like this is the only way they could have done it. For that point of reference we can probably look toward the likes of Bomberman, Cuphead and Vault Boy... which I imagine all did pretty well in their own right, but I would say lacked the same sheer groundbreaking impact that seeing Sans did for most people. Perhaps because he came first, but nonetheless.

I want to say the very presence of Undertale in Smash was enough to move people. Up to that point it was a complete pipe dream, so the acknowledgement of such a widely popular and beloved game turned heads and frankly, even if it sold so tremendously well because it was a deluxe costume... it's still a testament to how many people want the illusion of playing as Sans in the first place.

I've seen mods that give him a unique one in both Brawl and Ultimate, and they just seem clunky and not really "Smash-like."

I never let mods speak for the creativity of a professional team of game designers. The version of Sans that I can envision in my own mind is fun and I suspect Sakurai is a lot better at doing this than me or a Brawl modder, no disrespect to their own efforts but it's just not an equivalent reference point.

 

[Kirbeh]

I am curious how much of San’s Mii sales were due to him being a deluxe Mii that came with an awesome song. I personally never really cared much about Undertale but Sans was one of the very few Mii outfits I bought due to those things. I know Undertale is very popular and he would have likely sold a ton either way but I wonder if it would still be far and away the best selling outfit if he was just a standard Mii costume like most of the others.

I think anything UT would've still sold super well. Even without the song, I could it still see Sans being the most sold. Being a Deluxe and coming bundled with a song probably helped sway people who were on the fence or less interested though.

If it was a goofy looking hat or incomplete mask for the head gear, I probably wouldn't have gotten it.

I do think Undertale getting bigger representation is very likely for the next game, and I think if they got a character Sans would be the one Sakurai chooses. My only setback is that I just don't see him having a fun or interesting moveset. I've seen mods that give him a unique one in both Brawl and Ultimate, and they just seem clunky and not really "Smash-like."

Idk, I feel like Sakurai himself has been steadily pushing what's defined as "Smash-like." Characters introduced in 64/Melee are pretty different from characters introduced in Smafoursh and Ult. Ult's DLC alone pushed things even further.

 

[Shinuto]

I wonder if the group of deluxe mii costumes, Sans, Cuphead and Shantae have a leg up on any other potential picks cause of their deluxe...ish nature.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I still think the best Sans is the one that's too lazy to actually participate on the battlefield for the most part while Papyrus does majority of the work.

This is literally my idea for them; Sans sits in the background like Pokémon Trainer and occasionally throws Papyrus a bone and help him out for some attacks when he's high on damage, but otherwise stays off the battlefield as much as possible.

But Sans still gets top billing.

 

[Ivander]

If anything, I'm hoping that the Mii costumes having the music encourages more Music DLC or Mii Costumes with Music. Sans, Cuphead and Shantae having music was great. It's a shame it didn't happen with some of the 3rd Party costumes like Lloyd, Dante, Altair, Bomberman, etc.

 

[Gengar84]

If anything, I'm hoping that the Mii costumes having the music encourages more Music DLC or Mii Costumes with Music. Sans, Cuphead and Shantae having music was great. It's a shame it didn't happen with some of the 3rd Party costumes like Lloyd, Dante, Altair, Bomberman, etc.

Same here. I also prefer the deluxe Mii costumes that could pass off as the actual character rather than a Mii wearing a costume. I bought all the deluxe outfits and none of the standard ones for that reason. I would have loved if more came with a song too.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

In my mind, Sans, Shantae, and Shovel Knight are the three most likely Indie characters (and also the ones on my fan roster, go figure).

Sans has the Mii effect everyone is discussing. That out of nowhere reveal with the song really broke my brain in the best way. Still honestly my favorite moment in Ultimate aside from EiH and the collab itself got fanfare beyond just the costume, with Sakurai mentioning he and Toby Fox actually sat down and playing together as a fun anecdote. Never did get those spirits though, did we?

Shantae being a character with such easy Nintendo association and being the music deluxe Mii of the 'we know you guys reallllly want this' pack makes me think she'll show up next time. She's sort of been in the background but has been a pretty big member of speculation circles for awhile now.

Shovel Knight gets passed over a lot by the community, and the same could totally be done next time by bringing back his assist and calling it a day. Still, this is maybe the only Indie that has been credible as a possibility since Smash 4, and aside from a showstopper like Undertale, there's only so many Indies that could hypothetically be added before people question where Shovel Knight is. It's be interesting to see the differences between a Smash moveset for the character compared to how Rivals handled it.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Instead of his Final Smash, I wonder if they'd make it his down special. A downward punch that hits hard if timed correctly.

Funnily enough, it would make Dee the third Kirby character with a high risk, high reward special move.

I mean Spear already kinda has Moon Drop for this, but I guess that's more suited for a stall and fall Down Air.

I dunno, I just really like the idea of Bandana Dee's Final Smash just being cracking the planet in half. Very fun representation of Kirby's age old adage of "Even the most innocent/cute being can be a world breaker if they try" lol

 

[NotGenerico]

In my mind, Sans, Shantae, and Shovel Knight are the three most likely Indie characters (and also the ones on my fan roster, go figure).

Sans has the Mii effect everyone is discussing. That out of nowhere reveal with the song really broke my brain in the best way. Still honestly my favorite moment in Ultimate aside from EiH and the collab itself got fanfare beyond just the costume, with Sakurai mentioning he and Toby Fox actually sat down and playing together as a fun anecdote. Never did get those spirits though, did we?

Shantae being a character with such easy Nintendo association and being the music deluxe Mii of the 'we know you guys reallllly want this' pack makes me think she'll show up next time. She's sort of been in the background but has been a pretty big member of speculation circles for awhile now.

Shovel Knight gets passed over a lot by the community, and the same could totally be done next time by bringing back his assist and calling it a day. Still, this is maybe the only Indie that has been credible as a possibility since Smash 4, and aside from a showstopper like Undertale, there's only so many Indies that could hypothetically be added before people question where Shovel Knight is. It's be interesting to see the differences between a Smash moveset for the character compared to how Rivals handled it.

I think Zagreus should also be mentioned as one of the likelier Indie reps. He did get a Spirit after all.

 

[Louie G.]

Shantae being a character with such easy Nintendo association and being the music deluxe Mii of the 'we know you guys reallllly want this' pack makes me think she'll show up next time. She's sort of been in the background but has been a pretty big member of speculation circles for awhile now.

My personal bet is that this leads to an Assist Trophy, something they may be less shy about stocking with guests next time around. If Bomberman and Shovel Knight are anything to go by, at least. I know it's a controversial role but I have to believe Sakurai still treats it as an honor in its own right.

I can't personally help but see Shovel Knight and Shantae as benefactors of the Smash 4 era of speculation, enough to get them into the positions they ended up with in Ultimate, but IMO not enough current momentum and excitement to make the jump over to playability over someone like Sans or perhaps Zagreus who seem to have more presence within the current discussion or climate. Or even a Crewmate. I just think the indie scene has grown quite a lot and outside of Undertale, Smash speculation hasn't really moved on from where it was over a decade ago.

Shovel Knight and Shantae are still active series, and I've spoken on this before, but simply having games coming out does not mean the excitement behind these series and characters are as strong as they've ever been. Shantae's saving grace is that Wayforward is especially tight with Nintendo, but if a series as involved as Koei Tecmo can skip out on Ultimate then it's not a stretch to imagine Wayforward getting skipped over either. I'm personally not feeling it, but I'm feeling slightly more favorably toward Shantae's odds than I'm feeling Shovel Knight's if that counts for anything.