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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

smashkirby

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Sorry for saying this, but Lark was just inspired/based on Nester. Both aren't the same character.
Oh, right. Sorry, I was focused on Nintendo Power's little 'in-joke' on how 'Nester decided to take up getting his pilot license'. I forgot that Lark was just modeled after him, which kind of makes me wonder who in the world was the character designer for Pilotwings 64.

I don't mean to sound judgmental when I say this, but the character designs of that game just don't really scream "Japan-made" to me, even for a Japan-made cartoony game from the 90's.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It would be interesting in if Sakurai did get more 3rd party content from non-games like before. But he has gotten costumes from Advent Children, so it's definitely already a thing. But that makes sense too. The so-called 4th party is still basically in the game. ...But that's because 4th party is a pointless fanterm to try and make licensing sound different for 3rd parties when there is no legitimate difference in any way. Either the company owns it or they don't. There is no inbetween.

The closest otherwise is 2nd party, and that's actually more fanmade. It's for what is basically 1st party content being created by a different company that is hired to do so. The only actual other type of developer besides the awkward 2nd party, 1st party, and 3rd party, is Indie. No other terms are official or are really accepted even by game developers because they know a lot are full of bunk and it's just fans trying to create a distinction that doesn't legitimately exist.
 

HyperSomari64

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Oh, right. Sorry, I was focused on Nintendo Power's little 'in-joke' on how 'Nester decided to take up getting his pilot license'. I forgot that Lark was just modeled after him, which kind of makes me wonder who in the world was the character designer for Pilotwings 64.

I don't mean to sound judgmental when I say this, but the character designs of that game just don't really scream "Japan-made" to me, even for a Japan-made cartoony game from the 90's.
Good for your headcanon.

Guys, remember when Star Wars was heavily marketed by NoA (a Stormtrooper was featured in the N64 box with Mario).
 

osby

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Oh, right. Sorry, I was focused on Nintendo Power's little 'in-joke' on how 'Nester decided to take up getting his pilot license'. I forgot that Lark was just modeled after him, which kind of makes me wonder who in the world was the character designer for Pilotwings 64.

I don't mean to sound judgmental when I say this, but the character designs of that game just don't really scream "Japan-made" to me, even for a Japan-made cartoony game from the 90's.
Wikipedia tells me that the artists for the game were Yoshiyuki Kato and Hiroaki Takenaka. The game was developed in collaboration with Paradigm Simulation, a US-based company but from what I can tell, the character designers were Japanese.
 

Ivander

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It would be interesting in if Sakurai did get more 3rd party content from non-games like before. But he has gotten costumes from Advent Children, so it's definitely already a thing. But that makes sense too. The so-called 4th party is still basically in the game. ...But that's because 4th party is a pointless fanterm to try and make licensing sound different for 3rd parties when there is no legitimate difference in any way. Either the company owns it or they don't. There is no inbetween.
Cloud's Advent Children outfit did appear in the games like Kingdom Hearts 2, Dissidia Final Fantasy, etc. If you look at alot of the content from anime/movie stuff, they have appeared in the games first before being added to Smash Bros. Like not were in the games first, but appeared in games before appearing in Smash Bros. Like Ash-Greninja appeared in Sun & Moon first before being added to Smash Bros. Or the Advent Children remixes are remixes of music tracks that appeared in the game Final Fantasy VII first.
 

HyperSomari64

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Cloud's Advent Children outfit did appear in the games like Kingdom Hearts 2, Dissidia Final Fantasy, etc. If you look at alot of the content from anime/movie stuff, they have appeared in the games first before being added to Smash Bros. Like not were in the games first, but appeared in games before appearing in Smash Bros. Like Ash-Greninja appeared in Sun & Moon first before being added to Smash Bros. Or the Advent Children remixes are remixes of music tracks that appeared in the game Final Fantasy VII first.
It's not the same as begging for an Eddie the Mean Old Yeti Mii costume or the main theme for the 1986 Super Mario anime film in Smash.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Cloud's Advent Children outfit did appear in the games like Kingdom Hearts 2, Dissidia Final Fantasy, etc. If you look at alot of the content from anime/movie stuff, they have appeared in the games first before being added to Smash Bros. Like not were in the games first, but appeared in games before appearing in Smash Bros. Like Ash-Greninja appeared in Sun & Moon first before being added to Smash Bros. Or the Advent Children remixes are remixes of music tracks that appeared in the game Final Fantasy VII first.
They’re still non-game content in the first place. Which is why the distinction is extremely arbitrary in order to make rules up to justify a poor terminology. Especially when it doesn’t even care if it’s first party or not. The term loses meaning when it’s not a legitimate offshoot of 3rd party anymore. The entire point behind it was being another shorter way to say “non-game 3rd party.”

If it can’t even mean that? It stopped being useful in a legitimate fashion.

------------

So I took the time to see how it's used or even documented. Smash Wiki doesn't even acknowledge it. You'd think something so prevalent would be in Urban Dictionary, right? Nope. TVTropes, which has tons of lowkey nicknames doesn't even have it listed, even when it slightly acknowledges the term(and that makes sense. It's not really a heavily used term in the first place. It has to hard explain the term because it's completely obtuse. The funny rule about a fan nickname even there is that it needs to have a clear cut definition. It doesn't). GameFAQs is funny, because even when asked, they have multiple answers. That's because it's not a catch-all term either. Much of the time, it does refer to a character not from a video game. It's rarely used as "non-video game franchise", and isn't really some accepted fan term either. It's a minor one that didn't much catch on because nobody knew what it actually refers to. General fan nicknames of any franchise are very easy for said fandom to recognize what they actually mean. They're easy to define. ...This one isn't. That's a good sign it doesn't actually work.

Besides, the original Motion Sensor Bomb is directly based upon GoldenEye 007, a definite non-game franchise first, so this idea it matters? It really doesn't. That's not even counting how it still appears in Brawl's Chronicle, showing Sakurai has no issues in general noting it. It's easy to see why James Bond was even looked at. Content from his franchise was already in Smash(though once Brawl came around, they decided to stop referencing GoldenEye 007's design). The whole "they didn't originate from a video game" pretty clearly is about licensing at that point too, as it's been made clear they want characters from game franchises too. Which is fine, since it's simply a licensing nightmare even moreso than other 3rd parties are. Especially with tons of voice actors, any book creators, etc.

Basically? Even if you want to subscribe to the silly term, Smash already had fourth party content in the first place, from the first game alone. Which contradicts the point, doesn't it? That 4th party is basically another form of 3rd party, as non-video game franchises can't be owned by Nintendo in this context, otherwise they're already 1st party. Starting to see why it's confusing? That's because it is. The term doesn't make any sense, especially as it's very easy for Nintendo to add their own content that didn't originate in a video game, which still makes it a non-video game franchise. And it'd still be 1st party. Though as I said below, the actual proper usage of "party" in video games is about licensing and ownership. It's never legitimately been about origins at all, and that just makes it hyper complicated for anyone to discuss when 1st and 3rd party are highly simple and more useful terms for everyone involved.
 
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DarthEnderX

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The entire point behind it was being another shorter way to say “non-game 3rd party.”
No. It really just means "non-videogame franchise".

Cloud's AC outfit is still 3rd party because it's still Final Fantasy. Which is still a VG franchise. Captain N is 4th party, because Captain N is not a videogame franchise. Regardless of whether it's owned by Nintendo.

You're the first person I've ever heard argue about whether it deviates from 1st or 3rd party or not. It's only complicated because you're making it complicated.
 
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HyperSomari64

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They’re still non-game content in the first place. Which is why the distinction is extremely arbitrary in order to make rules up to justify a poor terminology. Especially when it doesn’t even care if it’s first party or not. The term loses meaning when it’s not a legitimate offshoot of 3rd party anymore. The entire point behind it was being another shorter way to say “non-game 3rd party.”

If it can’t even mean that? It stopped being useful in a legitimate fashion.
by "non-game 3rd party" you mean like Mega Mini from Fully Charged, or Cosmo from Sonic X.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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by "non-game 3rd party" you mean like Mega Mini from Fully Charged or that alien jungle boy from the Street Fighter cartoon.
Anything that came from a non-game first. Even Quan Chi in Mortal Kombat started from the cartoon first.

So, well, yes. Ash-Greninja and Captain N would be more like non-game 1st party content. If 4th party is nothing more than “didn’t originate from a game”, you start to get very pointless things, especially when the party system is mainly about ownership and licensing.

For your Yeti example, it’s simple; If Nintendo owns him, he’s first party. If not, he’s third party. There’s no inbetween or anything legitimately after to work with. Second party even if it would sound logical due to it being a weird situation with a DKC character can’t apply, as they’re actually about specific game development.
 
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MrMcNuts

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They could've used that fondness to have him as an extra DLC fighter in Sm4sh...just sayin'. :4pacman:
Smash 4's biggest fumble :( ... With my bias of course lol


Maybe they felt they had bigger fish prioritize, but hopefully with his steadily increasing fan support and relationship with ubi they'll realize next time he's one of the big fish? I posted it a page or two ago but it's pretty significant they agreed allowed him show up in Sparks of Hope considering they told the game's director "No" on plenty of stuff, so they're starting to see some value in him <3 But we'll see.

(Edit: Yeah I know Japan popularity is a hurdle before someone brings it up for the 27th time. I feel since he checks off the list on all the other prerequisites he can break that rule one day, or maybe sparks of hope dlc will boost his popularity a lil over there but eh we'll see)
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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If Ubisoft does possibly auction their IPs, I could see Nintendo going after the Rabbids in particular. They could also get Rayman, but like, while Rayman does decently in the West, so far Rayman has done quite poorly in Japan. And Nintendo often doesn't focus on series that don't sell well or have started selling poorly, though there are exceptions. Also Nintendo being a very Japanese-based company.
The Rabbids themselves IIRC do sell decently in Japan and Nintendo must see value in the Mario X Rabbids series if they allowed it to get a sequel. That said, the Rabbids were originally part of Rayman before separating off and in the case for the Wii games, Nintendo could possibly need to buy Rayman if they want to have full access to the Rayman Raving Rabbids games on the Wii. So Rayman could possibly become a necessity in getting the Rabbids series.

That aside, it all really depends on whether Ubisoft's situation becomes very dire and whether Nintendo sees the value in getting Rayman and/or the Rabbids. Especially since Nintendo really tends to be either hit-or-miss when it comes to getting companies. They have chosen to get companies like in the cases of Monolith Soft and Next Level Games, but other times they have let companies simply get bought or go down like Rare and Alphadream.
Shockingly Rabbids have kind of lost their star power. Obviously Nintendo fans now love them because of the M+R games but Rabbids Party of Legends bombed pretty much universally.

Other than that Nintendo has this odd passion for the good ole Ray and it’s unlikely that, if Nintendo were going to go after one, they wouldn’t go after the other. If anything it seems like Rabbids and Rayman would be a package deal, especially for Nintendo who has found relative success with both.
 

Batkelley

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No. It really just means "non-videogame franchise".

Cloud's AC outfit is still 3rd party because it's still Final Fantasy. Which is still a VG franchise. Captain N is 4th party, because Captain N is not a videogame franchise. Regardless of whether it's owned by Nintendo.

You're the first person I've ever heard argue about whether it deviates from 1st or 3rd party or not. It's only complicated because you're making it complicated.
By that logic, wouldn't R.O.B. technically be a "4th party" character?
 

JOJONumber691

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If Ubisoft does possibly auction their IPs, I could see Nintendo going after the Rabbids in particular. They could also get Rayman, but like, while Rayman does decently in the West, so far Rayman has done quite poorly in Japan. And Nintendo often doesn't focus on series that don't sell well or have started selling poorly, though there are exceptions. Also Nintendo being a very Japanese-based company.
The Rabbids themselves IIRC do sell decently in Japan and Nintendo must see value in the Mario X Rabbids series if they allowed it to get a sequel. That said, the Rabbids were originally part of Rayman before separating off and in the case for the Wii games, Nintendo could possibly need to buy Rayman if they want to have full access to the Rayman Raving Rabbids games on the Wii. So Rayman could possibly become a necessity in getting the Rabbids series.

That aside, it all really depends on whether Ubisoft's situation becomes very dire and whether Nintendo sees the value in getting Rayman and/or the Rabbids. Especially since Nintendo really tends to be either hit-or-miss when it comes to getting companies. They have chosen to get companies like in the cases of Monolith Soft and Next Level Games, but other times they have let companies simply get bought or go down like Rare and Alphadream.
I feel like Nintendo would buy both because they did publish Rayman Legends in Japan, shoeing they care about the IP to some extent. Not to mention that kind of feels like a package deal.
 

CapitaineCrash

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I don't see Nintendo buying Rayman and/or Rabbids honestly. I mean, what would be the point? They already don't have enough studios to make games to some of their most beloved franchise and with game development cycle becoming longer and cost more money (I'm assuming that Nintendo next gen will be more powerful than the Switch) even more franchise will probably start to be forgotten. Even if they bought Rayman, what studios would make a new Rayman game? The Mario 3d team? That would be sick but business wise it make no sense to stop development on Mario game to make Rayman game that will sell at best 1 million copies.

If they bought Ubisoft with the ip now they would have a team to work on new games. But nobody wants to buy a game publisher that have 20 000 employees and 45 studios to manage. So nobody is ever going to buy Ubisoft in that state, it's just ridiculously big.
 

chocolatejr9

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I don't see Nintendo buying Rayman and/or Rabbids honestly. I mean, what would be the point? They already don't have enough studios to make games to some of their most beloved franchise and with game development cycle becoming longer and cost more money (I'm assuming that Nintendo next gen will be more powerful than the Switch) even more franchise will probably start to be forgotten. Even if they bought Rayman, what studios would make a new Rayman game? The Mario 3d team? That would be sick but business wise it make no sense to stop development on Mario game to make Rayman game that will sell at best 1 million copies.

If they bought Ubisoft with the ip now they would have a team to work on new games. But nobody wants to buy a game publisher that have 20 000 employees and 45 studios to manage. So nobody is ever going to buy Ubisoft in that state, it's just ridiculously big.
Yeah, that's the biggest issue with Nintendo buying... any IP, really. There's no guarantee they'd actually be able to DO anything with it, even if they themselves admit to wanting to do stuff with it (i.e. Metroid). Though I guess that's why some people have suggested they buy Ubisoft Milan as part of the deal, even if I admittedly think that'd only really guarantee that Mario + Rabbids would have a chance to continue...
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Nintendo’s the same company that’s failed to find a permanent studio for Donkey Kong, in spite of it being their oldest semi-active IP and one that’s sold bigger numbers than the franchises they have found consistent developers for.

I’m not sure I have much faith that they’ll be the ones to make Rayman an active series again.
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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Nintendo’s the same company that’s failed to find a permanent studio for Donkey Kong, in spite of it being their oldest semi-active IP and one that’s sold bigger numbers than the franchises they have found consistent developers for.

I’m not sure I have much faith that they’ll be the ones to make Rayman an active series again.
This discussion mostly happened because someone mentioned it being a nightmare if Sony purchased him. I don’t think Nintendo is necessarily the greatest home for him, maybe somewhere like Namco or Sega, but I would prefer him at Nintendo over Sony. Even if we don’t get a new game every five years at Nintendo at least we’re pretty much guaranteed to get content of some kind with Smash, Cameos, or his classic games, at least 1 & 2, on NSO. Aside from that Ubisoft Milan being scooped up by Nintendo alongside the IPs would seem most likely so an easy house for the Rayman and Rabbids is, well, where they already live.

Also, to be fair, Nintendo is incredibly picky with their IP. If a new DKC is made they literally have to try and live up to what is genuinely one of if not the best 2D platformers of all time, Tropical Freeze. Funnily enough the only other 2D Platformers I feel come close to Tropical Freeze is Super Mario World and Rayman Legends of all things. Game is wonderful honestly.

It is a bummer that they don’t have a home for DK (Monster Games could’ve been an excellent choice considering their bonus world in DKCR3D if they hadn’t gotten bought out by iRacing) but at least we know that the next time we do get a DKC it’ll likely be a masterpiece.
 
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DarthEnderX

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By that logic, wouldn't R.O.B. technically be a "4th party" character?
Maybe. Nobody would say that though. Except people that feel the need to try and play lawyer with fairly obvious fanterms for some reason.

Like I said, it only get's complicated because some people want to make it complicated. 99% of people understand what it means.
 
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Opossum

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By that logic, wouldn't R.O.B. technically be a "4th party" character?
I mean, even under the given definition, not really.

R.O.B., at the end of the day, is just in a bit of an odd spot because he's effectively a character and a video game controller. He's part of the setup needed to play two specific video games. The only difference is that he's hardware instead of software.

The fourth party bit of jargon is just used for more cut and dry cases, is all.
 

MBRedboy31

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By that logic, wouldn't R.O.B. technically be a "4th party" character?
R.O.B. is videogame hardware. He is designed specifically to work with the NES and can’t do anything without it. Same thing with other videogame hardware stuff seen in Smash such as the Super Scope, the Wii Balance Board, Labo, the G&W device that Flat Zone takes place in, the Game Boy that Dream Land GB takes place in, etc.

Notice how Nintendo products that aren’t related to any kind of software or hardware (Ultra Hand, the Love Tester, playing cards, etc.) aren’t represented in Smash in any way. Many of these things have had numerous appearances in Nintendo games, but Smash still excludes them. Compare this to the 9-Volt stages in Warioware games, which do represent Nintendo’s old toys and playing cards.
 

chocolatejr9

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I'll admit, I haven't been keeping up with Level-5, but if they managed to improve to the point of reopening their Western divisions, then good on them. Hopefully that means we can FINALLY get Yo-kai Watch 4 localised: been waiting AGES for that one...

Also, they've got two (possibly three) IPs people want playable in Smash, FWIW.
 

fogbadge

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I'll admit, I haven't been keeping up with Level-5, but if they managed to improve to the point of reopening their Western divisions, then good on them. Hopefully that means we can FINALLY get Yo-kai Watch 4 localised: been waiting AGES for that one...

Also, they've got two (possibly three) IPs people want playable in Smash, FWIW.
YEEES!!!!
 

Geno Boost

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I Smashified Space Invaders and went as far as making alt skins
they are
-Arcade
-Space Invaders Part II
-Gameboy
-Virtual Boy
-Space Invaders Extreme
-Space Invaders Extreme 2
-Ufo-co Hat (Made by a friend)
-Arkanoid vs Space Invaders

however there is one more i wanted to add to this and its Super Space Invaders but probably it would take longer to make

what do you think?
Ornl Ornl you might wanna see this
 
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CapitaineCrash

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I'll admit, I haven't been keeping up with Level-5, but if they managed to improve to the point of reopening their Western divisions, then good on them. Hopefully that means we can FINALLY get Yo-kai Watch 4 localised: been waiting AGES for that one...

Also, they've got two (possibly three) IPs people want playable in Smash, FWIW.
Unless they really manage to make a huge comeback I don't think we'll actually see Level 5 content in Smash. Yokai watch 4 is the worst selling games in the franchise in Japan and even if someday they localize it I doubt it would be much more popular in the West. Layton is dead and it feels more and more unlikely that the franchise will make a comeback. And Inazuma eleven... yeah there's a new game coming out supposedly this year but it was delayed every year for the past 5 years so I will believe that the game exist when it will release. The state of the company is such a joke right now that it would be a miracle if they're still around by the time the next Smash happen, let alone that they have a character in said game. Literally all they did in the past 5 years is Ni no kuni 2 (which to be fair I heard it was very good), crossmedia franchise that nobody seems to care about even in Japan and delaying the new Inazuma eleven.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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By that logic, wouldn't R.O.B. technically be a "4th party" character?
Oddly enough? Nope. There is a literally called Robot Series that refers to the games that had R.O.B. compatible with them. It's basically his own universe. Sure, they're more or less standalone, but games can be weird and sometimes never have lore. XD In other words? He has a franchise. A very tiny one, but one nonetheless. I mean, Ice Climber is the franchise that Ice Climbers are from, so.

So he's not even an exception to one version of the fanterm.

Though it is worth noting said fanterm still has confusion because many aren't sure what it actually means, mainly due to being a very minor one as is. It's not "known" by most at all either, being that it doesn't get used outside of Smash, and only by the very small crowd of speculators. It's the tiniest portion of the fanbase. Less than 10% is a good way to put it, and may be quite high, but I'm trying to be somewhat generous here. It's been defined as "non-video game character", "character originating from a non-video game franchise", and "character that originated from a non-video game". The first one is very vague on what counts(and has even been used against Virtual Pets, of all things). The second and third are far more clear, but also used heavily when it comes up.
 

fogbadge

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Unless they really manage to make a huge comeback I don't think we'll actually see Level 5 content in Smash. Yokai watch 4 is the worst selling games in the franchise in Japan and even if someday they localize it I doubt it would be much more popular in the West. Layton is dead and it feels more and more unlikely that the franchise will make a comeback. And Inazuma eleven... yeah there's a new game coming out supposedly this year but it was delayed every year for the past 5 years so I will believe that the game exist when it will release. The state of the company is such a joke right now that it would be a miracle if they're still around by the time the next Smash happen, let alone that they have a character in said game. Literally all they did in the past 5 years is Ni no kuni 2 (which to be fair I heard it was very good), crossmedia franchise that nobody seems to care about even in Japan and delaying the new Inazuma eleven.
now that’s harsh. can we at least wait until they’ve come back before we burry them again

also you’re severely wrong about how many games they have made in the last five years. I mean you’ve even referenced a game that came out after ni no kuni 2. It’s not even the most recent game in the series plus there was that Netflix film.

just double check what they’ve been up to first
 
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CapitaineCrash

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now that’s harsh. can we at least wait until they’ve come back before we burry them again

also you’re severely wrong about how many games they have made in the last five years. I mean you’ve even referenced a game that came out after ni no kuni 2. It’s not even the most recent game in the series plus there was that Netflix film.

just double check what they’ve been up to first
Yes, I've made reference to game released after Ni no kuni 2 because those are included in "games released in the past 5 years", how does that makes me wrong? Also I've never mentionned how many games they have made, I only mentionned that all of them are crossmedia stuff that nobody hardly cared about.

And yes my post might seems harsh but it's hard to be optimistic with a company that is so out of touch. Just read the quote from chocolatejr9 link:

“With the recent globalization of the game business, we are looking for people to maximize the business scale as a content holder and actively develop Level-5’s IP not only in Japan but also on a global scale.”

Recent globalisation? It has been like that for years. Why did they even close the western studios 2 years ago then? Either way none of their crossmedia stuff sold well in Japan, none of them got particularly good review, why would things be different in the west?
 

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So.... honest question.

Is Toon Link in trouble? Toon Link is a popular veteran and even though he's a clone, the developers and the fanbase seem to agree a child Link is important. One of the strongest things going for Toon Link was that his art style was always in use. But the last time Toon Link got a game was Triforce Heroes. That was almost ten years ago. Is the Toon style retired?
 

LiveStudioAudience

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So.... honest question.

Is Toon Link in trouble? Toon Link is a popular veteran and even though he's a clone, the developers and the fanbase seem to agree a child Link is important. One of the strongest things going for Toon Link was that his art style was always in use. But the last time Toon Link got a game was Triforce Heroes. That was almost ten years ago. Is the Toon style retired?
My sense has been that if they can find something different to do with him, Toon Link might be back, but otherwise there's a decent chance he's gone.
 

HyperSomari64

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With the "non-video game content owned by video game companies" topic in mind, did anyone thought that it would be a good idea having Nintendo's headquarters in Kyoto as a stage for the next Smash?
 

Swamp Sensei

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My sense has been that if they can find something different to do with him, Toon Link might be back, but otherwise there's a decent chance he's gone.
When you say "find something different to do with him," what do you mean?
 

PeridotGX

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So.... honest question.

Is Toon Link in trouble? Toon Link is a popular veteran and even though he's a clone, the developers and the fanbase seem to agree a child Link is important. One of the strongest things going for Toon Link was that his art style was always in use. But the last time Toon Link got a game was Triforce Heroes. That was almost ten years ago. Is the Toon style retired?
I think we're going to have to wait a few years for an answer to that. Zelda is in a very interesting position right now, because barring remakes/ports everything in the series over the past 5 years has been tied to BOTW. This is new, because even on the N64, in which everything was tied to OoT, the Oracle games on the handhelds provided a counterbalance - nothing like that here. Once Tears of the Kingdom releases, it'll be interesting to see where they go next: either tripling down on BOTW, a return to a previous art style, or something entirely new. By then we'll have a frame of reference.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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When you say "find something different to do with him," what do you mean?
In the sense that his playstyle and/or moveset is altered to give him a different emphasis. Something like a fighter inspired by various Toon Link titles other than Wind Waker (Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Triforce Heroes) and thus contrasting with the TL we've seen in Brawl through Ultimate. Utilizing elements from the character's games to create a new kind of fighter feels like the most likely motivation to keep around a Link that otherwise doesn't have much going on given that subseries gradually disappearance from Zelda releases.
 
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