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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Garteam

Garteam

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Garteam
NintenZ said:
View attachment 365981
Made a list/roster of characters I want to see in the next Smash
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I dig the Kasumi love. I think a lot of people sleep on DoA because "haha funny booba game" but it is a massive franchise in the fighting game world and Kasumi would be a ton of fun. I wouldn't say no to a fast, combo-based character.
 
NintenZ

NintenZ

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Garteam said:
I dig the Kasumi love. I think a lot of people sleep on DoA because "haha funny booba game" but it is a massive franchise in the fighting game world and Kasumi would be a ton of fun. I wouldn't say no to a fast, combo-based character.
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Oh yeah for sure, people sleep on DOA but it's Tecmo's flagship franchise, saved the company from bankruptcy in the 90's, helped to define 3D fighters along with Virtua Fighter and Tekken, and they have a very close relationship with Nintendo as well. I think Kasumi would be really interesting because of the Hold mechanic from the games where you can grab and throw different limbs, I'd love to see how it'd be implemented. And I'd love for them to bring Hayabusa along as well and possibly have them possibly as a tag team since they're partners in DOA.
 
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Quillion

Quillion

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Garteam said:
I wouldn't say no to a fast, combo-based character.
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We just need core gameplay more geared towards combo playstyles and I'd be more on board with that.

I personally think we should swap out attack staling for combo decay so that combo characters aren't so favored over keepaway characters.
 
Geno Boost

Geno Boost

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NintenZ said:
Oh yeah for sure, people sleep on DOA but it's Tecmo's flagship franchise, saved the company from bankruptcy in the 90's, helped to define 3D fighters along with Virtua Fighter and Tekken, and they have a very close relationship with Nintendo as well. I think Kasumi would be really interesting because of the Hold mechanic from the games where you can grab and throw different limbs, I'd love to see how it'd be implemented. And I'd love for them to bring Hayabusa along as well and possibly have them possibly as a tag team since they're partners in DOA.
Click to expand...
Isn’t dynasty warriors tecmo flagship franchise as it made the most money for tecmo?
 
Gengar84

Gengar84

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DarthEnderX said:
Awww...I wish I had one of those.

...oh wait!

View attachment 365982
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I just found my list of dream fighter’s pass
picks.

1672782784275.jpeg

1672782826618.jpeg


I left out my absolute favorite character in Zegram Ghart since I can’t come up with any justification for him ever getting in.

There are also lots of first party characters I’d love to see as well like Gengar, Jena Anderson, Noah/Mio, EMMI, Goomba, Medusa, and others.
 
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HyperSomari64

HyperSomari64

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Here's mine:
  • Neptune / Purple Heart (Neptunia)
  • Blanc / White Heart (Neptunia)
  • Asuka (Senran Kagura)
  • [Unironically] Any character from other media outside of video games. (Yes, i'm one of those people)
 
Gengar84

Gengar84

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fogbadge said:
why is that xemnas' default?
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Because I like that outfit better and wanted to use that for the image. In reality, it would probably be an alt with his normal black coat as the default. His white coat definitely makes him stand out well compared to Sephiroth and makes him feel more unique so there is some reason why it could be his default.
 
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SPEN18

SPEN18

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Swamp Sensei said:
The frustrating part of the "they should focus on older characters" argument is it often invalidates the victories newer characters have.

Like Pyra/Mythra were a few years old when they were included. Yet they still are derided in this thread as shill picks. They had already proven themselves to be Xenoblade royalty then and are still incredibly popular in the Xenoblade community. When has a character proven themselves? When does a character just become a popular and important character worth including and not some "blatant advertising?"

Lyn was brought up as a character who has proved herself, and ya know what, I agree. But I'd argue every Fire Emblem character in the roster except Corrin has. The rest are uber popular and are from super important and well beloved games. Sure Three Houses was new when Byleth was included but it has already proven to be one of the cornerstones of the franchise. Games and characters can and do prove their worth super quickly. There is nothing wrong with celebrating the current superstars. That's part of how they become older superstars. When King K. Rool was introduced, audiences didn't just sit there and say "oh this villain is cool, but I want to see if he has staying power." They went "I like this character and I want to see more of him." Then the character appears more and people are happy. Putting newer characters in Smash is just one way of doing that. Roy and Ike are pretty much considered the old guard now, but they were included when they were very young. Same with characters like Lucas, Lucario, Inkling and... oh yeah.... Pikachu. He was effectively brand new when included.

You might argue Smash should be different but like... why? If you argue Smash is like a museum of sorts, then modern gaming history is equally as important as early gaming history. Even if I think they're (a little) overrated, I'm not gonna pretend Persona 5 isn't still affecting JRPGs or that Breath of the Wild isn't still affecting open worlds. If you argue that more popular characters should get in, then I'd say that the newer characters are still objectively popular (even Corrin who I kinda **** on earlier). If you argue that it feels corporate... well yeah. Making games is a business. Choosing Banjo and choosing Incineroar were both calculated decisions to make money. One route isn't inherently better than the other. Just because a product appeals directly to you doesn't make it better.

Why aren't you guys celebrating Chrom? He's the kind of inclusion you want, right? He maintained his popularity for 6 years until he got in. Is he somehow not old enough even though he join Smash a generation after his debut? Chrom should be a shining example that characters like Lyn are possible.

I want a lot of older characters too, but so often the argument comes off like it can't build up older characters without tearing down the new. Like an old relative complaining that foreigners are taking are jobs. Older characters should be able to stand up on their old merits. Its how "forgotten" characters like Banjo, K.Rool, Dark Samus, and Chrom got included. Their fanbases weren't demeaning newer picks (barring bad eggs). They were surviving off of passion and selling their characters. Older characters aren't being dismissed or insulted when new characters are included.

And I know this isn't going to change anything. This debate has been done so many times its reaching futility. Nothing new is being added to the conversation. It seems you're either opposed go this sort of thing or not with very little wiggle room. I really don't want to discuss this kind of thing anymore because it keeps running in circles. Let's talk about more productive (or at least funny) things.
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Since you said you don't want to talk further about this, I will preface by reminding that there's no obligation to read or respond. But, generally, making a long post with lots of talking points is generally not the way to get the opposing side to stop going on about their own points and such, soooo without further delay:

Because this is so long, I'm going to emphasize certain points like this for those who just want to get the gist of what I'm saying.

I don't think it's fair to try to put some strict rule on how many years it takes for a character to not be "blatant shill" or a "recency pick" or whatever. It's just not that simple. BUT what I can say is that:
(1) instead of allowing the ambiguity to tear the discussion apart, we could turn it into a talking point, debating whether a character has tested their mettle enough yet or not; and
(2) I think most people know shill when they see it...
If someone is absolutely demanding a strict timeline from me, then I can say that waiting a full console gen could be a decent if imperfect benchmark.

You bring up Pyra/Mythra as an example. While they don't fit the "wait a full console gen" benchmark I suggested, I was more or less alright with it (besides liking Rex better) when they happened since, as you say, they had at least a few years between release and being chosen for Smash, plus the full FP1 cycle where they weren't put in. Also there was no other older Xenoblade candidate I was personally rooting for; the presence or lack of legacy alternatives within a certain series can be a factor in reception, no doubt, even if the strictest form of anti-shill would be not shilling even in the lack of same-series alternatives.
I can't speak for everyone, but I would guess a factor contributing to negatively viewing Pyra/Mythra from an anti-shill angle would be the perception that a Xenoblade 2 rep would have made it in base if it had been feasible, leading to the further perception that they were already "soft" decided on when they were still very recent (whether it is true or not, the perception is there). That and their game still being on the current console when they got into Smash.
Lastly, Elma supporters would probably approach the above differently than I do.

On FE, well, I agree that the uniques we have at this point are proven, with that exception of Corrin being kind of borderline at best (though agreeing with the choices now is different than agreeing with them when they were first added). In addition to that I think it would be beneficial to shave some of the clones, but that's sort of another matter.
However, if Three Houses is really this established cornerstone (not saying it isn't), then waiting on adding it for like one cycle shouldn't have had much of a negative effect on it and it shouldn't have any issue remaining a strong candidate next time. If, say, Corrin and some clones got cut and it wasn't the most recent FE game anymore, TH getting in would be practically zero issue with most people except for the most insatiable of the "ban anime swordies" crowd.
I realize the marketing team thinks differently, but as a separate matter I also think they should do more to capitalize on evergreen characters' popularity via greater integration into newer projects and/or marketing material, in which case not being the newest would be less of an issue on that front.

On Chrom in particular, that's an interesting point. To be fair, plenty of people do celebrate him. For those who don't so much, it's probably because he's only an Echo and also because he comes from a game that already had two reps. If Awakening had been skipped entirely in 4, then I'm sure Chrom even in Echo form would have received far more applause from those rooting for legacy characters.

On "Characters can and do prove their worth super quickly. There is nothing wrong with celebrating the current superstars. That's part of how they become older superstars.":
True, characters can accrue merit very quickly and there is nothing wrong with celebrating current characters. But some of the problems are as follows.

(1) Often newer characters are chosen not for said merits or celebration but primarily due to their timing relative to Smash's release cycle; simple luck of the draw of when your game gets released terribly and unnecessarily disenfranchises lots of games and characters when timing is so heavily emphasized in the selection process. This issue is amplified by the fact that Smash gets released only once per console gen, meaning there is a wide range of games that have "poor timing." Even with DLC now, the selection cycles don't give everyone good timing, and so few of the DLC slots are given to 1P games anyway.

(2) Celebrating current characters through Smash reps would not be so much of an issue if there weren't so many other equally or more worthy candidates waiting in the wings, potentially even from the same franchises. A candidate is not automatically better because they are newer or because they older, but if the older and newer candidate are both equally strong, then there is typically going to be more certainty with the older one.

(3) Continuing from above, preferring older characters doesn't infinitely block newer characters; if someone was too new this time, then they can get in next time when they will have a bigger leg up in seniority. There's no corresponding phenomenon with advantaging newer characters; if being old is a disadvantage now, then it will still be a disadvantage later when you are even older.

(4) While merit can be accrued quickly, it is much harder to judge when it was accrued only recently. It is easy to point to examples of characters who got popular off their debut game and ended up lasting, but that's not every character and it's nigh impossible to tell how a particular character will age until they, well, age. You give a lot of individual examples and I am down to debate any one of them individually but I won't do it in this post for the sake of length.
I'll add that the current console gen's high success means that a lot of series are getting all-time best sales numbers; so right now more releases than normal are seeming like franchise cornerstones, but after getting some distance from the Switch era I believe we will be able to see these releases in a more full context. Besides that, even if you view the success of the Switch era as something extraspecial and worth giving more reps to, that is not necessarily how we should model the Smash games coming after every console gen.

(5) If the newer characters are really bound to be such big and long-lasting stars, then they should be able to do it without much help from Smash, lest that rise to stardom be mega-forced. They should in theory and in practice have enough staying power to still look like strong candidates after waiting a while.

"So often the argument comes off like it can't build up older characters without tearing down the new": I'm sorry you feel that way. That's not how it should make you or anyone feel. The point at least from my end is not to tear down the newer characters themselves. The matter at hand is fighting the unfortunate system that we have where characters are given an automatic leg up for having incidentally good timing. In a more ideal scenario, I wouldn't be sitting here going on and on about legacy characters versus the new hotness but would just be able to support whatever I like, new or old (believe it or not there is a certain threshold of success whose crossing would make me support brand new reps; it is just much higher than most others').
The motivation, again at least from my end, is a selection process where fanbases don't get left behind just because of bad, dumb luck that they can't control.
 
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Dinoman96

Dinoman96

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Swamp Sensei said:
Why aren't you guys celebrating Chrom? He's the kind of inclusion you want, right? He maintained his popularity for 6 years until he got in. Is he somehow not old enough even though he join Smash a generation after his debut? Chrom should be a shining example that characters like Lyn are possible.
Click to expand...
That's really not a good example because Chrom really only got in because he's just a mere echo of Roy. Same thing with Dark Samus, if they actually had to be completely unique they would of never been made playable past their expiration date.
 
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Gengar84

Gengar84

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DarthEnderX said:
First Pass is solid. Second pass is meh.

Blarf...

Excellent.

Excellent.
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That’s fair. The second pass has Bill Rizer though so at least that’s one character we share. I do tend to have unusual tastes as far as Smash fans go so I don’t expect my most wanted characters to be shared with many other people.
 
Gengar84

Gengar84

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NintenZ said:
I would LOVE Tidus, FFX should be in Smash in some form
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He has to have his iconic laugh as either a taunt or victory. Final Fantasy X is my second favorite FF after IX and another one of my all time favorites. My favorite characters from that game are Lulu and Auron but I’ll gladly take any of them. I feel like Yuna would be the most interesting moveset wise with a set based on summoning but Tidus would be great too.
 
Hadokeyblade

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As for me, characters i want to see in a future smash game are:

Shadow the hedgehog (He got robbed)
Crash Bandicoot
Phoenix Wright
A miniturized Cybuster

With Bandai Namco making an attempt to bring the Super Robot wars franchise outside of Japan with it's most recent entries i think it makes sense to add one of it's original robots to Smash, makes sense to me to crossover one of the biggest crossover franchises into Smash brothers.
 
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Gengar84

Gengar84

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How does everyone feel about the idea that Noah and Mio could be represented by a permanent transformation of their Ouroboros form after a short stage intro and victory animation? I think that’s a really cool potential idea to represent two characters without having to resort to a transform character or two separate characters. The Ouroboros would have to shrink a bit to somewhere between Ganondorf and Ridley’s size but that’s also true for other characters like Raven Beak and existing Smash veterans so that shouldn’t be an issue. The Ouroboros forms are really cool looking and would definitely stand out from the rest of the cast.

1672802144352.jpeg
 
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Perkilator

Perkilator

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Gengar84 said:
How does everyone feel about the idea that Noah and Mio could be represented by a permanent transformation of their Ouroboros form after a short stage intro and victory animation? I think that’s a really cool potential idea to represent two characters without having to resort to a transform character or two separate characters. The Ouroboros would have to shrink a bit to somewhere between Ganondorf and Ridley’s size but that’s also true for other characters like Raven Beak and existing Smash veterans so that shouldn’t be an issue. The Ouroboros forms are really cool looking and would definitely stand out from the rest of the cast.

View attachment 366004
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In my opinion, the Ouroboros works best as a Final Smash. And yes, I know that’s likely a bit disappointing.
 
C

chocolatejr9

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Gengar84 said:
How does everyone feel about the idea that Noah and Mio could be represented by a permanent transformation of their Ouroboros form after a short stage intro and victory animation? I think that’s a really cool potential idea to represent two characters without having to resort to a transform character or two separate characters. The Ouroboros would have to shrink a bit to somewhere between Ganondorf and Ridley’s size but that’s also true for other characters like Raven Beak and existing Smash veterans so that shouldn’t be an issue. The Ouroboros forms are really cool looking and would definitely stand out from the rest of the cast.

View attachment 366004
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IDK, having Ouroboros be the rep instead of Noah and/or Mio feels like it's kinda... missing the point? If that makes any sense?
 
Aligo

Aligo

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GaminGryff said:
How? The Ouroboros IS them. It's a story about connecting with people; if anything that's the most on point you could do
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The connecting with people part is kinda ironic given the ending

I'd argue that the next xenoblade character, if there is one at at all in the next smash, would be an X or inevitable next xenoblade character, but I do think the best bet for XC3 is an Ouroboros form, as it would set them apart from the existing xeno characters and the rest of the roster (would also be a heavyweight, can't go wrong with that).
 
AlRex

AlRex

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I have too many I want...
-A historically important third party that'd be strange to see playable (Space Invaders, Atari, Tetris mainly)
-Someone from Sony [most likely Kratos or Ratchet & Clank if anyone, but I'd be most excited to see Parappa or Sweet Tooth]
-Carmen Sandiego
-Agumon/Greymon (Digimon)
-Scorpion or Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat)
-DOOM Slayer (DOOM) and/or Master Chief (Halo)
-The big NES third parties left: Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden), Bill Rizer (Contra), the Battletoads, Jason & SOPHIA (Blaster Master), Bomberman...
-PF Squad/SV-001 (Metal Slug)
-Sam & Max if they count

Along with a lot of the new series Nintendo characters I mentioned in a post earlier...probably more I can think of later...
 
S

Stratos

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I have a long list of characters that I would like to see in future games of the Super Smash Bros. series, but if someone else comes that is not on my list, I don't have a problem, I'm fine with that.
 
Gengar84

Gengar84

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AlRex said:
I have too many I want...
-A historically important third party that'd be strange to see playable (Space Invaders, Atari, Tetris mainly)
-Someone from Sony [most likely Kratos or Ratchet & Clank if anyone, but I'd be most excited to see Parappa or Sweet Tooth]
-Carmen Sandiego
-Agumon/Greymon (Digimon)
-Scorpion or Sub-Zero (Mortal Kombat)
-DOOM Slayer (DOOM) and/or Master Chief (Halo)
-The big NES third parties left: Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden), Bill Rizer (Contra), the Battletoads, Jason & SOPHIA (Blaster Master), Bomberman...
-PF Squad/SV-001 (Metal Slug)
-Sam & Max if they count

Along with a lot of the new series Nintendo characters I mentioned in a post earlier...probably more I can think of later...
Click to expand...
Glad to see someone else that’s shared at least some of my most wanted characters (Battletoads, Bill Rizer, and Sub-Zero). There’s a particular Sony owned character I’d love to see as well but he has no chance at all (Zegram from Rogue Galaxy). I’d also really love to see a TETRIS stage but I’m not sure how a playable character would work.
 
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AlRex

AlRex

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Gengar84 said:
Glad to see someone else that’s shared at least some of my most wanted characters (Battletoads, Bill Rizer, and Sub-Zero). There’s a particular Sony owned character I’d love to see as well but he has no chance at all (Zegram from Rogue Galaxy). I’d also really love to see a TETRIS stage but I’m not sure how a playable character would work.
Click to expand...
Super Smash Brothers Crusade made Tetromino as a character work decently, IMO
 
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