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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

fogbadge

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The Warrior of Light and Onion Knight were chosen by the crystals(in Warrior of Light's scenario, he was chosen by Cosmos) in their games to fight against the wave of darkness coming to consume the world, with Garland becoming the host of Chaos in FF1(and in Dissidia's plot, eventually become Chaos) and the Cloud of Darkness being the personification of the wave of darkness.

And a very Very big note about Edea. She was possessed against her will by Ultimecia, who was trying to destroy SEED before it destroyed her. And Squall is a member of SEED and would eventually learn SEED's true goal of defeating Ultimecia. Afterwards when both Ultimecia and Squall go back to the past after Squall and the rest of SEED defeats her, Ultimecia possesses Edea and Squall passes onto Edea the knowledge of SEED's goal, which creates the cycle for Final Fantasy 8.

So that's the big connection between Squall and Ultimecia, is that Ultimecia tried to destroy SEED before it destroyed her and her possessing Edea and starting her actions against SEED would start the cycle of Squall and his comrades eventually coming to defeat Ultimecia, which ultimately(no pun intended) creates the neverending loop of defeat for Ultimecia. The Edea that was fought by Squall and Co. was Ultimecia using and controlling her body, which would result in "Edea's Corpse" being an Alternate costume for Ultimecia in Duodecim.
That’s not really a connection though. There were just told to go beat some guy whom they have very little interaction with.

Remember that golbez and jecht were also possessed and they were both chosen cause of their stronger ties to the main characters. Edea was also an important person in squalls life, a maternal figure they all lost. Ultimatecia had no idea which seed was going to kill her no did seed themselves. It wasn’t until the actual creation of the rather elaborate version of the bootstrap paradox that either of them knew. His connection with edea was far stronger

What’s up with foreign games having a bad seed. In Gungrave the SEED is also bad. Doesn’t make sense to me because fruit comes from seeds.

Edit: All good things come from seeds really
Seed are the good guys in FF8
 
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Ivander

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What’s up with foreign games having a bad seed. In Gungrave the SEED is also bad. Doesn’t make sense to me because fruit comes from seeds.
Except this wasn't a bad seed? SEED's goal was to fight against Ultimecia and keep her from destroying the world with Time Compression, using the young Ellone.
That’s not really a connection though. There were just told to go beat some guy whom they have very little interaction with.

Remember that golbez and jecht were also possessed and they were both chosen cause of their stronger ties to the main characters. Edea was also an important person in squalls life, a maternal figure they all lost. Ultimatecia had no idea which seed was going to kill her no did seed themselves. It wasn’t until the actual creation of the rather elaborate version of the bootstrap paradox that either of them knew. His connection with edea was far stronger
Except they figured out who she was not too long after Seifer's torture session with Squall. Ultimecia reveals herself after Squall and Co. go into Galbadia Garden during the fight between Galbadia and Balamb. That's only around the half-way point. And Squall being SEED is enough for Ultimecia, because it doesn't matter if she didn't know which SEED would kill her or if SEED even knew. She just knew that SEED was going to destroy her, and that was more than enough for her to go after every SEED in existence to make sure she wasn't.
Squall's destiny was to defeat Ultimecia, not so much like the crystal sense in FF1/3/5, but because he had to continue the loop that would begin his adventure to defeat Ultimecia. Ultimecia wouldn't have possessed Edea without SEED going after her in the future and SEED wouldn't have happened nor gone after her had Ultimecia not possessed Edea in the past, which A: forces Squall to reveal what knowledge he had for Edea so that she and Cid would prepare for Ultimecia's eventual return. And B: When she eventually possesses Edea to take over Galbadia, which would eventually lead Squall and SEED to find who she is and what she was going to do to the world.

Also it doesn't help Edea would never support Chaos. Golbez willingly sided with Chaos to act as a mole and because of his own issues at the thought of being a light warrior and Jecht was originally a light warrior before giving himself up to save Tidus, who was deceived to the side of Chaos. And Jecht himself never really knew Chaos goal nor cared and mostly just wanted a good fight. Edea would see no reason to side with Chaos at all compared to Ultimecia. Also doesn't help that if it was Squall and Edea, it wouldn't be much different from Cecil's story with Golbez. Whereas with Ultimecia, she tried to deceive Squall in the form of Cosmos into not working with the other light warriors due to his own insecurities with them. Edea would obviously do the opposite.
 

silenthunder

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Seed are the good guys in FF8
I’m wrong and I’m glad I’m wrong maybe Squall can knock some sense into Beyond the Grave who wants to destroy the seed. (Except I think that seed has something to do with ai, I need to rewatch the trailer of Gungrave G.O.R.E.)
 

Ivander

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I'm sure Sakurai would've too. But then Square goes

Maybe it's not Square. Maybe it's all those copyright holders that Sakurai was talking about.

I don't know for sure, but considering that Square gave Sakurai the idea of including Solo and Eight for Dragon Quest alongside Luminary and Erdrick to help add more DQ music into Smash after Sakurai was looking at the hopelessness of 4 music tracks for Dragon Quest, it is a suggestion.
 
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chocolatejr9

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Maybe it's not Square. Maybe it's all those copyright holders that Sakurai was talking about.

I don't know for sure, but considering that Square gave Sakurai the idea of including Solo and Eight for Dragon Quest alongside Luminary and Erdrick to help add more DQ music into Smash after Sakurai was looking at the hopelessness of 4 music tracks for Dragon Quest, it is a suggestion.
Plus, Dragon Quest music might not be as big of an issue next time given... you know.
 

dream1ng

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Maybe it's not Square. Maybe it's all those copyright holders that Sakurai was talking about.

I don't know for sure, but considering that Square gave Sakurai the idea of including Solo and Eight for Dragon Quest alongside Luminary and Erdrick to help add more DQ music into Smash after Sakurai was looking at the hopelessness of 4 music tracks for Dragon Quest, it is a suggestion.
Considering we couldn't even get a FF7 AT, despite every other playable third-party series (in base) receiving one, I'm thinking Square themselves is indeed a factor, given how music and artwork licensing aren't necessary for something like that.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Considering we couldn't even get a FF7 AT, despite every other playable third-party series (in base) receiving one, I'm thinking Square themselves is indeed a factor, given how music and artwork licensing aren't necessary for something like that.
The likeness of one character(an AT) is still something that costs money, though? Though that obviously said, money isn't the only factor either way.

Of course Square is a factor. But if the theory that they paid for Cloud in Smash 4 and Ultimate at once has any merit, that means all the prices are effectively doubled. Coupled with Square paying their employees properly means stuff costs even more. But let's also remember an AT isn't just an artwork or a song, it requires both time and money to be workable. They require time to actually get the AT's animations both working and at the satisfaction of said company.

Something else to consider; what's the real difference between the summons and the AT's? ...Nothing. They're extremely similar in practice. Namely, they both require a lot of work. Another possibility is the summons were dedicated only to the stage, so they weren't allowed anywhere else by Square's personal mandate. So them being a summoning item anywhere was a no-go. They aren't really much more than AT's, just stage-specific. That could be the entire reason. Cause it's basically done already and they don't want to spend time and money for something very similar. That, and what would be the new AT from FFVII specifically? Maybe they felt it was covered well enough. When the series goes more properly beyond FFVII, perhaps we'll get one.

But yeah, I'd have been surprised by it... if we didn't have Midgar doing that job. And why, yes, I'd love a Cactuar dealing 999 damage to anyone who is close enough. Cause it's just that funny and mean.
 

fogbadge

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Except this wasn't a bad seed? SEED's goal was to fight against Ultimecia and keep her from destroying the world with Time Compression, using the young Ellone.

Except they figured out who she was not too long after Seifer's torture session with Squall. Ultimecia reveals herself after Squall and Co. go into Galbadia Garden during the fight between Galbadia and Balamb. That's only around the half-way point. And Squall being SEED is enough for Ultimecia, because it doesn't matter if she didn't know which SEED would kill her or if SEED even knew. She just knew that SEED was going to destroy her, and that was more than enough for her to go after every SEED in existence to make sure she wasn't.
Squall's destiny was to defeat Ultimecia, not so much like the crystal sense in FF1/3/5, but because he had to continue the loop that would begin his adventure to defeat Ultimecia. Ultimecia wouldn't have possessed Edea without SEED going after her in the future and SEED wouldn't have happened nor gone after her had Ultimecia not possessed Edea in the past, which A: forces Squall to reveal what knowledge he had for Edea so that she and Cid would prepare for Ultimecia's eventual return. And B: When she eventually possesses Edea to take over Galbadia, which would eventually lead Squall and SEED to find who she is and what she was going to do to the world.

Also it doesn't help Edea would never support Chaos. Golbez willingly sided with Chaos to act as a mole and because of his own issues at the thought of being a light warrior and Jecht was originally a light warrior before giving himself up to save Tidus, who was deceived to the side of Chaos. And Jecht himself never really knew Chaos goal nor cared and mostly just wanted a good fight. Edea would see no reason to side with Chaos at all compared to Ultimecia. Also doesn't help that if it was Squall and Edea, it wouldn't be much different from Cecil's story with Golbez. Whereas with Ultimecia, she tried to deceive Squall in the form of Cosmos into not working with the other light warriors due to his own insecurities with them. Edea would obviously do the opposite.
Well we’re talking about the reasons normua picked them not the in game story reasons he made up in the second game. Besides golbez didn’t become a mole until Cecil appeared in the cycle before that his self loathing made resign himself to his fate as a puppet for yet another malevolent being. Both golbez and jecht were being controlled by the true villains of the game like edea but they were both chosen by normua due to their stronger ties to the main characters. Ultimacia makes the most sense as a villain to represent 8 but in terms of normuas own plan to select characters with strong ties to each there were characters that squall had a stronger connection to. The two of them didn’t even meet until the endgame and predestined or not squall had longer and bigger connections than with her
 
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Oracle Link

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Tifa's mostly in demand because many expect her to be another FF7 rep over the rest of the FF games getting a character. And her remake design easily clears up any previous issues with her original design.

And yeah, Terra is easily the most popular main character out of the Final Fantasy 1 to Final Fantasy 6 line-up, although Bartz and Cecil aren't too far behind. And Bartz was noted alongside Terra when Sakurai was talking about Final Fantasy reps.
I honestly doubt they would use her remake Design both Cloud and Sephi are more inspired by their OG/ Adventchildren Looks and isnt the Tifa Costume based on the Original Design?
I also dont see a JigglePhysicless Tifa Being Much worse Than The Stuff in Smash!
 

Ivander

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I honestly doubt they would use her remake Design both Cloud and Sephi are more inspired by their OG/ Adventchildren Looks and isnt the Tifa Costume based on the Original Design?
I also dont see a JigglePhysicless Tifa Being Much worse Than The Stuff in Smash!
Jiggle physics isn't Tifa's issue really. It's the fact of CERO having a big issue with pantyshots, which OG Tifa does have an issue with. Remember how much Sakurai had to work on Palutena before he even got an okay from CERO. Remake Tifa doesn't differ much from OG Tifa aside from the addition of shorts, stockings and an additional black shirt under her white shirt and the shorts would easily deal with the pantyshot issue CERO has.
 

Diddy Kong

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Does anyone think that The Legend of Zelda is the Luigi of Nintendo franches?
It's the other love child of Nintendo, definitely doesn't get the same attention as Mario but it stands it's own ground fine. It's a more core series for Nintendo, not exactly always as casual friendly as Mario, but a more loyal fanbase is the result of this. I wonder how they gonna take the series further in the future.
 

Oracle Link

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Jiggle physics isn't Tifa's issue really. It's the fact of CERO having a big issue with pantyshots, which OG Tifa does have an issue with. Remember how much Sakurai had to work on Palutena before he even got an okay from CERO. Remake Tifa doesn't differ much from OG Tifa aside from the addition of shorts, stockings and an additional black shirt under her white shirt and the shorts would easily deal with the pantyshot issue CERO has.
Ah yeah right i thought about this too i think! Yeah the panty Issues are really weird IMO!
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Does anyone think that The Legend of Zelda is the Luigi of Nintendo franches?
Well. Mario is clearly the King. Though it depends where you want Pokemon to fit. Is that more the Peach, then? XD They're pretty much the top 3 by far, and Mario tops it easily.
 

Wonder Smash

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Yeah, th, that one.
Then I say yeah, probably.

Or as already mentioned, it's Nintendo's other love child. Kind of like how Superman and Batman are for DC.

Though funny, with DC having a trinity with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, I always say that Nintendo's own trinity would obviously be Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon. But sometimes, I often wonder if it was Mario, Zelda, and Kirby. I guess that's just me being a platforming fan but I always I felt that Kirby could have became much bigger than it is now.
 
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HyperSomari64

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Then I say yeah, probably.

Or as already mentioned, it's other love child. Kind of like how Superman and Batman are for DC.

Though funny, with DC having a trinity with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, I always say that Nintendo's own trinity would obviously be Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon. But sometimes, I often wonder if it was Mario, Zelda, and Kirby. I guess that's just me being a platforming fan but I always I felt that Kirby could have became much bigger than it did.
Always i associate Nintendo's Holy Trinity with Mario, Zelda and Metroid, but lifetime sales tells a different story. (world of lust and crime)
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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Then I say yeah, probably.

Or as already mentioned, it's Nintendo's other love child. Kind of like how Superman and Batman are for DC.

Though funny, with DC having a trinity with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, I always say that Nintendo's own trinity would obviously be Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon. But sometimes, I often wonder if it was Mario, Zelda, and Kirby. I guess that's just me being a platforming fan but I always I felt that Kirby could have became much bigger than it is now.
It is interesting to see how the emphasis by Nintendo changes over the years. I'd argue there was a period from about 94-97 where the trinity of Nintendo (at least in the West) was Mario, Yoshi, and the Kongs. Yoshi was the one getting various puzzle spin-offs like Yoshi's Cookie or Tetris Attack alongside SMW2 while DK was getting the strong push both on SNES and Game Boy. Metroid and Zelda were both still effectively in hibernation at this point, Star Fox was big but hadn't gotten anything in the way of side games, and Kirby was still gaining momentum. 1997 was no different with Yoshi's Story and Diddy Kong Racing (along with Star Fox) being the major first party N64 games that year (Mario Kart 64 having technically arrived in Japan in 1996).

1998 changed everything. The arrival of Ocarina of Time not only kicked Zelda back into regular releases again, but the release of Pokemon Red and Blue in the West instantly made it a cash cow beyond everything wasn't Mario. Even with the release and success of DK64 in 1999, the new trinity of Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon was established and its essentially been maintained since.
 
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TCT~Phantom

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As you know The Legend of Zelda is Nintendo's second most famous video game franchise.
:ultpikachu:
Second most famous they have full ownership of at least. Pokémon is the biggest multimedia property of all time in terms of revenue iirc. Nintendo owns a plurality of it on top of also having stakes in TPC and Game Freak.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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:ultpikachu:
Second most famous they have full ownership of at least. Pokémon is the biggest multimedia property of all time in terms of revenue iirc. Nintendo owns a plurality of it on top of also having stakes in TPC and Game Freak.
Being that TPC is a combination of Nintendo, Creatures, and Game Freak, the sentence's phrasing is very very odd. I get what you mean, I think. That their Nintendo part of said combination is the highest amount of stakes while also having stakes in Game Freak, making them having even more control than just being how TPC is set up alone?

Either way, it's an error that I've seen come up a lot lately.
 

Oracle Link

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Yeah true it still confuses me the most how we only have like 4 zelda Characters that really Count (Link, Zelda, Ganon and A Younger link)
After all atleast you can argue with kirby that there is the sakurai Bias and that Kirby is seen as Gaming Junkfood by some people (Not by me tho)
Yeah Zelda only having 3 Movesets is weird too!
Also Why Wasnt Sheik replaced by Impa?
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yeah true it still confuses me the most how we only have like 4 zelda Characters that really Count (Link, Zelda, Ganon and A Younger link)
After all atleast you can argue with kirby that there is the sakurai Bias and that Kirby is seen as Gaming Junkfood by some people (Not by me tho)
Yeah Zelda only having 3 Movesets is weird too!
Also Why Wasnt Sheik replaced by Impa?
Because Sheik and Impa aren't that much alike to begin with. Sheik also was basically the most popular playable character in Melee and top tier. She also provided a super unique moveset. Impa has her own materials and was finally given something of note later on. Besides that, Zelda was really really bad without being able to transform into Shiek to somewhat alleviate it, so entirely separating them made it worse. She couldn't really call upon a decent move like the Phantom in Brawl either. Too early for that concept. So separating them would've made Zelda go from already unviable to possibly worse. That said, it's possible Zelda was planned as Sheik in TP, but we don't know if she was meant for that and scrapped or if Sheik got a remake in the TP style specifically made for Smash. Hyrule Warriors is quite vague on it. Either are possible.

To get back to Impa; nothing made her stand out at the time(it wasn't till SS she started to gain anything at all. You know, by the time 4 hit? No way she would've been in Brawl). Zelda and Sheik were a package deal. Neither had a consistent ability set, so the transformation was the core gimmick. It's only later that Zelda coincidentally had ties to the Goddesses(loosely, via SS), so her specials kind of worked out. But back then? Nope, it wasn't enough. And we already saw that even with her being separated, it barely helped. She's still very bad in 4. In Ultimate, she was buffed, but it still didn't change her issues. Also, keeping in mind Sheik was shown first, she's pretty much treated as being in before Zelda. It wouldn't even be that surprising if she was chosen first, due to being Zelda's fighting form, something that was barely a secret by the time Melee came out, and the only time in any canon series she could feasibly fight. Sakurai couldn't really depend upon the CD-i games or the TV Show, since Zelda basically was Link in every way fighting-wise. With the abilities from OOT and imagining her as a unique style of "monk"-like fighting(energy kicks, etc.), he found something... usable. He already viewed ninjas as very easy to transfer over, which explains how easily Sheik was added in general. Or why Greninja was easily chosen over the other ones(A fiery magical fox was also easy to use, but Chesnaught was... a bit less interesting. Since it didn't stand out nearly as much among a lot of characters who can already punch rather well. Though to be fair, Little Mac also has a clear gimmick, which is why despite being a puncher, he does stand out enough. Whether one likes the gimmick or not is irrelevant).

Last thing of note to Impa; SS provides her some abilities, but it doesn't mean it provides a clear playstyle outright. She's already unique and would be a pretty bleh replacement for Sheik even during Brawl since unlike Toon Link, she wasn't simply promoting a new game. The only character of note at that point was Impaz. She missed the boat by not being reused as is for any new games. Her designs are inconsistent too. The only actual relevant design was her larger one from the Oracle games, who is nothing like Sheik either, being a powerhouse character who has more in common with Donkey Kong at that point. So that was a no-go as well(that, and we didn't really get a lot of Capcom Zelda stuff for a while, so it's possible even if she was considered, there was some oddities with copyright/licensing. I don't think there was, but it's really hard to say what was going on). You can even tell how little Impa was on the radar when she didn't even get a Trophy at all during Melee. She finally had something in 4, which took a while. At least in Brawl she wasn't relevant outside of the Oracle games. The original ALTTP Ganon suffers even more, having zero mentions despite being the most iconic design besides arguably the first game at best. They obviously don't care that much about referencing specific games all the time. ...But being Ganondorf's only appearance with the ALTTP Ganon is loosely in Four Swords Adventures(Ganondorf is mentioned, but doesn't physically appear), that's not that odd.

But you might get the idea by now; relevance played a lot of roles in which to choose. At Smash 4, we got no new Zelda characters(compared to Melee and Brawl introducing new ones), with Ultimate only returning one cut one for a pretty large total of 6. Sakurai's choices aren't even clear to us why he doesn't go outside of the Triforce Trio. You can somewhat justify ALTTP Ganon not being there since regular Ganon is already a boss anyway(as massively different as they are), but the lack of any kind of Spirit still remains a mystery. Maybe TOTK will give us something. Maybe it won't. Maybe Ganoncorpse(nickname) is actually Ganondorf. Or maybe it Phantom Ganon. Or just a coincidence. Seeing Ganondorf and Ganon separated would be neat, though.

With 6 total characters anyway(Toon Link and Young Link clearly weren't meant to be the same, but just have a very similar role at that point), there was pretty much no need for more characters. It doesn't matter that some of them are clones either. It's still a lot of characters as is, and outside of Ultimate, it had 5 characters total for multiple games. Plus every game after Smash 64 had tons of content(multiple stages, tons of music, items, and they even had various enemies appear in more than one game or at least multiple AT's). Though also keeping in mind that the not many franchises even have more characters(Super Mario, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem), but with caveats; Fire Emblem has a bit of a lackluster content. While it has good music, it has no items beyond AT's only(and not many at that), most of the stages are generic(and it didn't even get one in Melee for that matter), and even then, it only has two Echoes and one semi-clone. Which two of them were directly based upon Marth(one deviated more), and one that partially relates to it).
 

Gengar84

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Yeah true it still confuses me the most how we only have like 4 zelda Characters that really Count (Link, Zelda, Ganon and A Younger link)
After all atleast you can argue with kirby that there is the sakurai Bias and that Kirby is seen as Gaming Junkfood by some people (Not by me tho)
Yeah Zelda only having 3 Movesets is weird too!
Also Why Wasnt Sheik replaced by Impa?
Hyrule Warriors Impa is one of my favorite Zelda characters but I’d be pretty disappointed if they cut Sheik for anyone at this point. It’s true that Sheik no longer really plays a role in the mainline Zelda titles but she is among my favorite Smash characters. Impa also has way more potential for a unique moveset rather than just take Sheik’s playstyle. While I prefer her original HW interpretation, Impa has a ton of options whether they take from either of her sets in that game or from AoC. None of which really resembles Sheik’s Smash moveset very much. Finally, even if Impa was to adopt Sheik’s playstyle, why cut Sheik instead of just making Impa an echo?
 
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Stratos

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I got both versions of Pokémon because I couldn't decide which one to get. But the matter is different, about the Paradox Pokémon, partly I have nothing to say and write about the ones in Pokémon Scarlet, but the ones in Pokémon Violet as you know have a robotic look, you also know they did Iron Treads of course Ground but its second type is Steel so shouldn't the other Paradox Pokémon in Pokémon Violet have been made Steel type as well? I mean, there were two types, but one of the two was Steel. Not that I mind, I just find it odd that they put it that way.
 

chocolatejr9

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I got both versions of Pokémon because I couldn't decide which one to get. But the matter is different, about the Paradox Pokémon, partly I have nothing to say and write about the ones in Pokémon Scarlet, but the ones in Pokémon Violet as you know have a robotic look, you also know they did Iron Treads of course Ground but its second type is Steel so shouldn't the other Paradox Pokémon in Pokémon Violet have been made Steel type as well? I mean, there were two types, but one of the two was Steel. Not that I mind, I just find it odd that they put it that way.
I think the point is that they're the same Pokemon, but at different points in history, so giving them a new type wouldn't make sense.
 

Gengar84

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I think the point is that they're the same Pokemon, but at different points in history, so giving them a new type wouldn't make sense.
Every one of the prehistoric and future variants actually do get new typings to my knowledge. The weird thing is that the future variants all got the name “Iron X” and almost none of them got the Steel type.
 

HyperSomari64

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Every one of the prehistoric and future variants actually do get new typings to my knowledge. The weird thing is that the future variants all got the name “Iron X” and almost none of them got the Steel type.
because GF doesn't want type oversaturation.
 

JOJONumber691

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Zelda gets screwed over hard by how the Series operates. There’s only certain characters who appear in every game, and fewer are consistent enough to actually show up in Smash, and lack moveset potential in a way. I feel like after Sheik got in, Sakurai realized that One-Offs are probably not a good idea for a series where the Main 3 almost always show up, but I still think that Midna and Wolf Link should be here. Since they would be able to stand out over the other One-Offs just by being playable in a Mainline Title.
 
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