Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Spoiler

because GF doesn't want type oversaturation.

my i introduce you to the water type

 

[Gengar84]

Spoiler

because GF doesn't want type oversaturation.

Spoiler

Thats what I figured but all four of the gate legends are Dark type along with two of the prehistoric variants. I’m not sure that’s too much better balanced than if all the “Iron” Pokémon were part Steel.

 

[chocolatejr9]

my i introduce you to the water type

Well yeah, but... it's Water type.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Should try to have part 2 of the SCCC and part 3’s poll out by the end of the year. The past few months have had a lot of rough personal stuff going on for me.

For the Pokémon section, here is what I have planned roughly for Gen 9.

• Meowscarada/Sprigatito family
• Skeledirge/Fuecoco family
• Quaquaval/Quaxly family
• Armorouge
• Ceruledge
• Cyclizer
• Baxcalibur

I will have non Paldea stuff on the poll, but most of that is more locked in with the suggestion box and it having easier to hit targets. I’ve also considered Scream Tail and Megazard X for echo discussion.

Fire Emblem’s picks are close to locked in. Xenoblade and Earthboud/Mother also are locked in. Pokémon is the sticking point for poll planning. Feel free to give feedback on the Pokémon selection.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Megazard X

Nah kid! I rather prefer to play Megazard ZX Advent.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Should try to have part 2 of the SCCC and part 3’s poll out by the end of the year. The past few months have had a lot of rough personal stuff going on for me.

For the Pokémon section, here is what I have planned roughly for Gen 9.

• Meowscarada/Sprigatito family
• Skeledirge/Fuecoco family
• Quaquaval/Quaxly family
• Armorouge
• Ceruledge
• Cyclizer
• Baxcalibur

I will have non Paldea stuff on the poll, but most of that is more locked in with the suggestion box and it having easier to hit targets. I’ve also considered Scream Tail and Megazard X for echo discussion.

Fire Emblem’s picks are close to locked in. Xenoblade and Earthboud/Mother also are locked in. Pokémon is the sticking point for poll planning. Feel free to give feedback on the Pokémon selection.

Okay, hear me out: Iron Valiant. Why force people to choose between Gardevoir and Gallade when they can have both?

 

[fogbadge]

Okay, hear me out: Iron Valiant. Why force people to choose between Gardevoir and Gallade when they can have both?

Not another anime sword fighter

 

[Gengar84]

Should try to have part 2 of the SCCC and part 3’s poll out by the end of the year. The past few months have had a lot of rough personal stuff going on for me.

For the Pokémon section, here is what I have planned roughly for Gen 9.

• Meowscarada/Sprigatito family
• Skeledirge/Fuecoco family
• Quaquaval/Quaxly family
• Armorouge
• Ceruledge
• Cyclizer
• Baxcalibur

I will have non Paldea stuff on the poll, but most of that is more locked in with the suggestion box and it having easier to hit targets. I’ve also considered Scream Tail and Megazard X for echo discussion.

Fire Emblem’s picks are close to locked in. Xenoblade and Earthboud/Mother also are locked in. Pokémon is the sticking point for poll planning. Feel free to give feedback on the Pokémon selection.

I’m just really hoping we get something other than a starter again. Meowscarada is easily my favorite of the three and would give us a fully evolved Grass starter so that wouldn’t be too bad. I have some obscure favorites like Lokix and I really love Great Tusk but I’m not sure they have the best chances. While I do like Cyclizar and it represents both games, I’d still rather have either Miraidon or Koraidon than it personally. Out of these, Ceruledge would be an awesome addition to Smash and it’s one of my favorites of the Gen.

My most wanted Scarlet/Violet rep is a major spoiler:

Spoiler

I’d love to see professor Sada fight with a combination of her own attacks while summoning the prehistoric variants for others. I’ve always loved the idea of a trainer that fights alongside their Pokémon and Ihad the idea way back in Gen 6 with Lysander but Sada is probably my favorite professor and final boss in the series.

 

[Arcanir]

Spoiler

Thats what I figured but all four of the gate legends are Dark type along with two of the prehistoric variants. I’m not sure that’s too much better balanced than if all the “Iron” Pokémon were part Steel.

Spoiler

I mean, having seven Pokemon in a group be Steel type would be duller then four, and one of the criticisms of the Future forms is how homogenous they are in design theme and name. Making them all Steel type would add to that criticism, and it would be pretty unfavorable as Ancient forms don't have a unifying typing between them so having one group exclusively have one typing while the other is much more varied would reflect poorly on the Future set.

That said, one or two more Steel types wouldn't have been bad for them.

 

[Gengar84]

Spoiler

I mean, having seven Pokemon in a group be Steel type would be duller then four, and one of the criticisms of the Future forms is how homogenous they are in design theme and name. Making them all Steel type would add to that criticism, and it would be pretty unfavorable as Ancient forms don't have a unifying typing between them so having one group exclusively have one typing while the other is much more varied would reflect poorly on the Future set.

That said, one or two more Steel types wouldn't have been bad for them.

Spoiler

Thats fair. I’m not really complaining, it’s just a bit odd they chose to name them all “Iron” and give them a robotic design without making them Steel. Type variety is always welcomed.

 

[Oracle Link]

Hyrule Warriors Impa is one of my favorite Zelda characters but I’d be pretty disappointed if they cut Sheik for anyone at this point. It’s true that Sheik no longer really plays a role in the mainline Zelda titles but she is among my favorite Smash characters. Impa also has way more potential for a unique moveset rather than just take Sheik’s playstyle. While I prefer her original HW interpretation, Impa has a ton of options whether they take from either of her sets in that game or from AoC. None of which really resembles Sheik’s Smash moveset very much. Finally, even if Impa was to adopt Sheik’s playstyle, why cut Sheik instead of just making Impa an echo?

Yeah i guess they could make shiek a Costume the main reason why i think impa would work with Shieks Moveset is cause we never see impa do anything really in Mainline! Yes She Could have a Unique Moveset but i rather have this Work Go into a New Zelda Character or G. Dorf!

 

[HyperSomari64]

Spoiler

If Iron Man was a Pokémon, he would be Flying/Electric, nuff said.

 

[Gengar84]

Spoiler

If Iron Man was a Pokémon, he would be Flying/Electric, nuff said.

Spoiler

Not Electric/Steel that can just learn the move Fly? Plenty of Pokémon fly without actually being Flying type. Until this game, I don’t think there were many (any?) Pokémon that were metallic without being Steel type.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Plenty of Pokémon fly without actually being Flying type.

Spoiler

I'm still waiting the day when Snorlax could learn Fly. If the rat can get some balloons attatched for it's use, then why Lax can't turn into a hot air balloon? So sad about it.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah i guess they could make shiek a Costume the main reason why i think impa would work with Shieks Moveset is cause we never see impa do anything really in Mainline! Yes She Could have a Unique Moveset but i rather have this Work Go into a New Zelda Character or G. Dorf!

...But she does? In SS? She has unique abilities as well as most of her designs aren't similar to Shiek's either.

I mean, at worst Impa could be a Sheik echo(or a more regular clone, which fits the abilities and bodyshapes better anyway) and they can add another Zelda characters, including but not limited to; Tingle, Midna(with Wolf Link but also having her true form show up in some way at least), Ghirahim, ALTTP-style Ganon(Pig Ganon isn't accurate anymore as a catch-all, cause, well... all forms of Ganon bar the first two Zelda games are pig-like. TP, OOT, 1/3 of WW, etc.), Vaati(Minish Form anyway works best for playable), for a few examples, anyway.

 

[fogbadge]

Spoiler

I'm still waiting the day when Snorlax could learn Fly. If the rat can get some balloons attatched for it's use, then why Lax can't turn into a hot air balloon? So sad about it.

well he's a normal type so he's immune to drifblim

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Zelda gets screwed over hard by how the Series operates. There’s only certain characters who appear in every game, and fewer are consistent enough to actually show up in Smash, and lack moveset potential in a way. I feel like after Sheik got in, Sakurai realized that One-Offs are probably not a good idea for a series where the Main 3 almost always show up, but I still think that Midna and Wolf Link should be here. Since they would be able to stand out over the other One-Offs just by being playable in a Mainline Title.

I would argue moveset potential is not exactly the issue, Shiek was basically built from the ground up based almost entirely on her ninja appearance. If done creatively enough, any Zelda character could work quite well. But Sakurai's resistance in adding side characters in after Melee is definitely a problem for including more reps in long running franchises without rotating main casts, such as Zelda.

I know this because Kirby is in a similar predicament right now. While plenty of characters from that series would be super unique in Smash, very few have the consistency to be anything other than wishful thinking. The super popular Forgotten Land didn't really add all that many options in terms of new characters or additions to old characters. And granted, I know there is an exception in Bandana Dee, but... well, he was basically given the opposite effect in Smash as an upgrade to the normal Waddle Dee. And because HAL has yet to consistency use a character like him (that's not in Smash) it puts Kirby's potential newcomer options at a disadvantage.

 

[JOJONumber691]

I would argue moveset potential is not exactly the issue, Shiek was basically built from the ground up based almost entirely on her ninja appearance. If done creatively enough, any Zelda character could work quite well. But Sakurai's resistance in adding side characters in after Melee is definitely a problem for including more reps in long running franchises without rotating main casts, such as Zelda.

I know this because Kirby is in a similar predicament right now. While plenty of characters from that series would be super unique in Smash, very few have the consistency to be anything other than wishful thinking. The super popular Forgotten Land didn't really add all that many options in terms of new characters or additions to old characters. And granted, I know there is an exception in Bandana Dee, but... well, he was basically given the opposite effect in Smash as an upgrade to the normal Waddle Dee. And because HAL has yet to consistency use a character like him (that's not in Smash) it puts Kirby's potential newcomer options at a disadvantage.

Honestly Shiek is kinda bland lol. I genuinely wouldn't be shocked if Sheik got cut next game. They genuinely feel so low priority.

 

[Garteam]

Zelda gets screwed over hard by how the Series operates. There’s only certain characters who appear in every game, and fewer are consistent enough to actually show up in Smash, and lack moveset potential in a way. I feel like after Sheik got in, Sakurai realized that One-Offs are probably not a good idea for a series where the Main 3 almost always show up, but I still think that Midna and Wolf Link should be here. Since they would be able to stand out over the other One-Offs just by being playable in a Mainline Title.

To add to this, another big issue confronting Zelda is that the series doesn't have a "big name" that people can rally around. There's no equivalent to Ridley, King K. Rool, or Bandana Waddle Dee that people who just want a general Zelda character default to. Skull Kid is probably the closest thing there is to such a character, but he still has to split support with Marin, Impa, Midna, Ghirahim, Ganon, the Champions, Tetra, and Tingle.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly Shiek is kinda bland lol. I genuinely wouldn't be shocked if Sheik got cut next game. They genuinely feel so low priority.

Sheik is almost certainly not low priority. She's been grandfathered in to Smash mainstay like Captain Falcon, Ness and Jigglypuff.

 

[Sucumbio]

While I agree Zelda is a huge Nintendo franchise and cash cow to the developers of Smash it's more in league with Star Fox and Metroid for reps. Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem are the ones I expect to get a new character.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Sheik is not getting cut unless they do a hard reboot of the series. Honestly anyone from Melee that avoided cuts in the Brawl era and beyond is likely staying around unless they nuke the roster to below 40 characters. Mewtwo, Roy, and Doc I would put in that camp as well. There is a reason that these characters have stuck around for over 20 years at this point. Sure, if you want to salivate about the idea of a "perfect" roster where characters like Sheik and Jigglypuff are cut because of relevancy or what have you, I can't stop you. But it is objectively unlikely. I remember when a fringe group was emphatic about the idea of Sheik getting cut in Smash 4 because for some reason Impa would just take her place. Smash cuts do not work like that. You do not get addition by subtraction.

If we get cuts in the next game, which I think is a bit of a big if, I think that it will be less than 10 characters cut. Third parties are probably a zero sum situation: if we are getting Sonic and Hero, we are getting Bayonetta, Joker, Sephiroth, and Hero. They probably would be negotiating the rights for all of a company's returning characters at the same time. And keep in mind, I think that this is a very reasonable shot we don't see any cuts. I think most of the third parties are safe, and we have Ultimate to work with now. It is easier to bring a character from Ultimate forward than having to basically remake the characters like they did for Ultimate. While I doubt the new characters took as long to make as a fully fleshed new character, it still would have taken more time than just making another veteran from Smash 4 if that makes sense.

--------------------------------------------------------

One thing I have a hunch will be explored more in the next Smash is the echo concept. The rebranding of clones to echoes really made the smash community more emphatic about the idea, especially considering they would not take up much development time. I think at the bare minimum, we will probably see at least 5-6 echoes; about as much as Ultimate had. I would not be too shocked though if we got more.


Here are a few I think are interesting/likely.

: Jeanne
: Dry Bowser
: Zack
: Dixie Kong
: Funky Kong
: Octoling
: Scream Tail
: Proto Man
: Galacta Knight
: Mega Charizard X
: Medusa
: Big Boss
: Shadow
: Roxas

: Alph, I can cope

Also depending on how far you an stretch the definition of echo, I think there is one which has a shot that people would not want as an echo fighter that I did not mention on here.

 

[SPEN18]

Oh, boy, Sheik talk again. As I've said before, I think Sheik should be cut. The Zelda series has very simply had plenty of better options come along since Melee.
The "grandfather clause" is a tendency/preference of Sakurai and/or Nintendo (probably more the former), not any kind of rule; it probably shouldn't even be called a "clause." And it only goes so far when even some of its biggest posterboys have almost been cut in the past: Ness was legit planned to be literally replaced by Lucas in Melee (per Source Gaming), and all tangible indications are that Jigglypuff was low priority for both Brawl and for 4.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Oh, boy, Sheik talk again. As I've said before, I think Sheik should be cut. The Zelda series has very simply had plenty of better options come along since Melee.
The "grandfather clause" is a tendency/preference of Sakurai and/or Nintendo (probably more the former), not any kind of rule; it probably shouldn't even be called a "clause." And it only goes so far when even some of its biggest posterboys have almost been cut in the past: Ness was legit planned to be literally replaced by Lucas in Melee (per Source Gaming), and all tangible indications are that Jigglypuff was low priority for both Brawl and for 4.

Addition does not equal subtraction. Sure, you might think there are better picks for Zelda than Sheik: we are not getting one of them at the expense of Sheik. Characters for Smash have never been cut in order to pave the way for specific new additions. This kind of view should have been dead and buried when we got Lucario and Mewtwo/Ike and Roy in Smash 4. It does not matter if you think there are better characters that could represent X game or Y Series: they are not going to cut characters in modern Smash to do so.

Your examples are also disingenuous as well. For starters, there is not hard evidence that Jigglypuff was on the chopping block for Smash 4.For Brawl, yeah she was almost cut for time constraints. But Brawl's development is almost famously messy with plenty of delays and issues. Ness was considered to be cut...in 2000. I am gonna have to stress that 2000 is not 2022. Time changes things. It is easy to pick apart things like The Simpsons not making sense economically in the 21st century, Terry not doing anything in most KOF games, or Avatar: The Last Airbender having the same opening monologue after Season 1. But just because something is the artifact of an older era of the series does not make it intrinsically bad. People like Terry in the KOF games primarily because they like Terry. People like the structure of the Simpsons even if it harks back to an era no longer obtainable to the average American. Sure, cutting Ness might have made sense in 2000, when the Smash series did not keep him around and he was not ingrained as much into it. Now it makes no sense. The same can be said for Sheik and Jigglypuff. Sure, if the roster was made today from scratch, chances are they would not be in the game. But the roster is not being made from scratch today. We are close to 25 years of having Smash 64 and have had Melee since 2001. We have this foundation that has been built upon. Characters like Sheik and Jigglypuff would not make sense if the roster went purely based off of relevancy or historical impact without 25 years of Smash being there to back them uo. That does not mean that they are ever likely cuts. They have had ample opportunities to deliberately can Sheik or Jigglypuff since their relevancy shriveled up. The only time either of them was at risk of a cut was Jigglypuff during Brawl's messy development time. Heck, they even brought Sheik back in Smash 4 when the transformation gimmick was an issue instead of canning her. This is not even going into the impact both have had on competitive Smash and how that has only bolstered their iconic status in Smash. You can want Sheik to be cut. I won't stop you from thinking she should be cut, even if I think that mindset is flawed. But she is far from a likely cut at all, especially now.

Also Grandfather Clauses are an actual historical thing.

 

[Ivander]

One thing I have a hunch will be explored more in the next Smash is the echo concept. The rebranding of clones to echoes really made the smash community more emphatic about the idea, especially considering they would not take up much development time. I think at the bare minimum, we will probably see at least 5-6 echoes; about as much as Ultimate had. I would not be too shocked though if we got more.


Here are a few I think are interesting/likely.

: Jeanne
: Dry Bowser
: Zack
: Dixie Kong
: Funky Kong
: Octoling
: Scream Tail
: Proto Man
: Galacta Knight
: Mega Charizard X
: Medusa
: Big Boss
: Shadow
: Roxas

: Alph, I can cope

Also depending on how far you an stretch the definition of echo, I think there is one which has a shot that people would not want as an echo fighter that I did not mention on here.

Like I get the enthusiasm behind echoes being a possibility for characters who probably wouldn't have a chance otherwise, but sometimes alot of the Echoes I've seen often take out what makes them unique just so they can fit in.
For example, making Dixie an Echo of Diddy ignores her hair aside from people making her hair spin an Up-B, while ignoring how she has used her hair to carry barrels and cannon balls or even used it to attack enemies. She has alot of emphasis on her hair being versatile for alot of things.
Making Medusa an Echo of Palutena is ignoring her power and destruction behind her attacks while using powers used by the very goddess she hates. Viridi wouldn't be an Echo of Palutena, but she could very much work as a smaller-sized clone of Palutena as she does use the same powers as Palutena.
Making Zack an Echo of Cloud ignores all of the unique stuff he has and can do in Crisis Core that Cloud doesn't have.

Like there really needs to be a clearer emphasis on, "Yes they could, but should they?" Because often, alot of Echoes people suggest often make them almost the exact same as the character they are echoing without looking at some very clear differences between them or should be costumes because for the most part, they are very much the same character.
The only ones I see that work fine are Octoling(despite them more likely to be a non-Echo with emphasis on newer weapons), Proto Man, Shadow(in a very Ryu/Ken way), Alph and Scream Tail. Maybe Big Boss if Snake focuses on his MGS1 and MGS4 looks while Big Boss focuses on his MGS3 and MGS5 looks. Jeanne I do not know about to make a clear decision. I get wanting Charizard to be his own character again, but keeping him in a permanent Mega Form feels very awkward for one and two, it feels unfair for Charizard to be solo and Squirtle and Ivysaur don't get to be.
The others I feel should either be a direct costume to choose from or have some very big differences or unique things that they should not have removed in order to make them an Echo.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Sheik is almost certainly not low priority. She's been grandfathered in to Smash mainstay like Captain Falcon, Ness and Jigglypuff.

Okay, let’s go over the reasons they’ve returned:
-Melee and Brawl they only existed because of Zelda
-3DS and Wii U Sheik only came back because of Zelda, but they were split and both needed new Specials.
-Ultimate was Everyone is Here.
In every Smash Game there was a reason, and in comparison to say, ZSS, Sheik has never gotten a Major Revamp and only two Special Changes, and in comparison to the other Weird Picks Sheik only exists because of Zelda, and after Everyone is Here she feels super low priority in comparison to The other Oddballs o the Roster.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Like I get the enthusiasm behind echoes being a possibility for characters who probably wouldn't have a chance otherwise, but sometimes alot of the Echoes I've seen often take out what makes them unique just so they can fit in.
For example, making Dixie an Echo of Diddy ignores her hair aside from people making her hair spin an Up-B, while ignoring how she has used her hair to carry barrels and cannon balls or even used it to attack enemies. She has alot of emphasis on her hair being versatile for alot of things.
Making Medusa an Echo of Palutena is ignoring her power and destruction behind her attacks while using powers used by the very goddess she hates. Viridi wouldn't be an Echo of Palutena, but she could very much work as a smaller-sized clone of Palutena as she does use the same powers as Palutena.
Making Zack an Echo of Cloud ignores all of the unique stuff he has and can do in Crisis Core that Cloud doesn't have.

Like there really needs to be a clearer emphasis on, "Yes they could, but should they?" Because often, alot of Echoes people suggest often make them almost the exact same as the character they are echoing without looking at some very clear differences between them or should be costumes because for the most part, they are very much the same character.
The only ones I see that work fine are Octoling(despite them more likely to be a non-Echo with emphasis on newer weapons), Proto Man, Shadow(in a very Ryu/Ken way), Alph and Scream Tail. Maybe Big Boss if Snake focuses on his MGS1 and MGS4 looks while Big Boss focuses on his MGS3 and MGS5 looks. Jeanne I do not know about to make a clear decision. I get wanting Charizard to be his own character again, but keeping him in a permanent Mega Form feels very awkward for one and two, it feels unfair for Charizard to be solo and Squirtle and Ivysaur don't get to be.
The others I feel should either be a direct costume to choose from or have some very big differences or unique things that they should not have removed in order to make them an Echo.

The thing is you can say that about plenty of echo fighters. Richter is not a 1 to 1 copy of Simon. Chrom certainly could have played differently than Roy, as Lucina could have from Marth. Dark Samus fights differently than Samus in her boss fights. Dark Pit easily could have been more different than Pit and used other weapons in his moveset or even get a semi clone treatment. I know some people have reservations about the echo fighter situation, mainly because they feel that a character should get a unique moveset or "deserves better". Should echos have a bit more variety to them? Absolutely. I would like more Chroms and less Dark Samuses. Id prefer things like a Dixie with a Hair twirl up B or differently animated but functionally identical throws to a Daisy style echo. I certainly would have preferred a more unique Dark Samus to what we got. She perhaps "deserved" better. But I would rather have Dark Samus than no Dark Samus.

Yes, you could make Dixie or Zack unique, but they easily could fit as echoes as well. You could make pretty much any character I had on that list unique from their source character. Just like they could have made Dark Samus or Dark Pit more unique from their source characters. Alas, they did not. Getting in Smash comes with sacrifices even for unique characters. I think the net positive of getting Dixie in Smash albeit as at best a Chrom tier echo of Diddy outweighs any grievances I could have about the lack of a unique Dixie. I'd rather have Zack or Roxas than no Zack or Roxas. Could they make Roxas unique as this dual wielding hyper aggressive swordsman? Yes, and that would be awesome. Would I be content with just a Roxas echo from Sora with slightly different Magic? Sure. At the end of the day, a large part of why people support characters to get in as an echo is because they want the character in and are willing to make sacrifices to do so. I would love Big Boss in Smash, but I am willing to have him as an echo if it gets him in. Same goes for Zack. Would it be cool to have a Crisis Core themed Zack? Sure, but I would be fine with just Zack as an echo of Cloud because it menas a character I like is in Smash.

You could want something like Dixie unique, but its very reasonable to say she would make a solid echo fighter. All that truly matters is enough surface level similarities and a similar body shape. I do not think Chrom is a dead ringer for Roy, but due to their similar builds and somewhat similar swordplay motifs it works. While I would have preferred a unique Dark Samus, having her as this floaty doppleganger of Samus also works. Despite what Jeff Golblum might say, the question is not whether they should for echoes: it is simply if they could.

Okay, let’s go over the reasons they’ve returned:
-Melee and Brawl they only existed because of Zelda
-3DS and Wii U Sheik only came back because of Zelda, but they were split and both needed new Specials.
-Ultimate was Everyone is Here.
In every Smash Game there was a reason, and in comparison to say, ZSS, Sheik has never gotten a Major Revamp and only two Special Changes, and in comparison to the other Weird Picks Sheik only exists because of Zelda, and after Everyone is Here she feels super low priority in comparison to The other Oddballs o the Roster.

Getting splintered off into your own character and half of your specials being changed a very noticeable rework, especially when Zelda and Sheik no longer needed to be balanced around each other even harder than Samus and ZSS did. Being able to switch to a fundamentally different character is very strong and has to be balanced around. It's why Brawl Zelda was as slow as a tortoise and Sheik couldn't kill until 200%. Now separated, they could give Sheik one of the more dynamic reworks out of the Smash 4 cast. Most characters have not gotten a rework as thorough as Sheik.

Furthermore, if the switching gimmick was causing problems, they could have in theory just cut Sheik like they did with Squirtle and Ivysaur but did not. But Sheik, despite your insistence otherwise, was not a low priority pick. They deliberately kept Sheik in the roster despite having a reasonable pretense to cut her. If anything, it proves Sheik is a reasonably high priority pick if they were willing to save her despite issues with transforming on the 3DS. You may not like Sheik, but there is absolutely no evidence that she was a low priority character despite what you "feel".

 

[JOJONumber691]

The thing is you can say that about plenty of echo fighters. Richter is not a 1 to 1 copy of Simon. Chrom certainly could have played differently than Roy, as Lucina could have from Marth. Dark Samus fights differently than Samus in her boss fights. Dark Pit easily could have been more different than Pit and used other weapons in his moveset or even get a semi clone treatment. I know some people have reservations about the echo fighter situation, mainly because they feel that a character should get a unique moveset or "deserves better". Should echos have a bit more variety to them? Absolutely. I would like more Chroms and less Dark Samuses. Id prefer things like a Dixie with a Hair twirl up B or differently animated but functionally identical throws to a Daisy style echo. I certainly would have preferred a more unique Dark Samus to what we got. She perhaps "deserved" better. But I would rather have Dark Samus than no Dark Samus.

Yes, you could make Dixie or Zack unique, but they easily could fit as echoes as well. You could make pretty much any character I had on that list unique from their source character. Just like they could have made Dark Samus or Dark Pit more unique from their source characters. Alas, they did not. Getting in Smash comes with sacrifices even for unique characters. I think the net positive of getting Dixie in Smash albeit as at best a Chrom tier echo of Diddy outweighs any grievances I could have about the lack of a unique Dixie. I'd rather have Zack or Roxas than no Zack or Roxas. Could they make Roxas unique as this dual wielding hyper aggressive swordsman? Yes, and that would be awesome. Would I be content with just a Roxas echo from Sora with slightly different Magic? Sure. At the end of the day, a large part of why people support characters to get in as an echo is because they want the character in and are willing to make sacrifices to do so. I would love Big Boss in Smash, but I am willing to have him as an echo if it gets him in. Same goes for Zack. Would it be cool to have a Crisis Core themed Zack? Sure, but I would be fine with just Zack as an echo of Cloud because it menas a character I like is in Smash.

You could want something like Dixie unique, but its very reasonable to say she would make a solid echo fighter. All that truly matters is enough surface level similarities and a similar body shape. I do not think Chrom is a dead ringer for Roy, but due to their similar builds and somewhat similar swordplay motifs it works. While I would have preferred a unique Dark Samus, having her as this floaty doppleganger of Samus also works. Despite what Jeff Golblum might say, the question is not whether they should for echoes: it is simply if they could.


Getting splintered off into your own character and half of your specials being changed a very noticeable rework, especially when Zelda and Sheik no longer needed to be balanced around each other even harder than Samus and ZSS did. Being able to switch to a fundamentally different character is very strong and has to be balanced around. It's why Brawl Zelda was as slow as a tortoise and Sheik couldn't kill until 200%. Now separated, they could give Sheik one of the more dynamic reworks out of the Smash 4 cast. Most characters have not gotten a rework as thorough as Sheik.

Furthermore, if the switching gimmick was causing problems, they could have in theory just cut Sheik like they did with Squirtle and Ivysaur but did not. But Sheik, despite your insistence otherwise, was not a low priority pick. They deliberately kept Sheik in the roster despite having a reasonable pretense to cut her. If anything, it proves Sheik is a reasonably high priority pick if they were willing to save her despite issues with transforming on the 3DS. You may not like Sheik, but there is absolutely no evidence that she was a low priority character despite what you "feel".

Because Hardware forced the Specials to even exist, she was already done otherwise so she stayed. But compare her to ZSS. ZSS got the Rocket Boots and half her moves changed from Brawl. That’s something that wasn’t needed but happened anyways. Also kinda shocked Squirtle and Ivysaur weren’t saved lol.

 

[SPEN18]

Addition does not equal subtraction. Sure, you might think there are better picks for Zelda than Sheik: we are not getting one of them at the expense of Sheik.

Cutting Sheik does not necessarily mean getting another Zelda pick, no. Another Zelda pick is only one of many things that could have higher priority than Sheik, though, depending on the situation. I think Sheik should have low priority, and there are other Zelda characters that I think should have higher priority. Regardless of getting another Zelda pick, though, I wouldn't prioritize returning Sheik.

Characters for Smash have never been cut in order to pave the way for specific new additions. This kind of view should have been dead and buried when we got Lucario and Mewtwo/Ike and Roy in Smash 4. It does not matter if you think there are better characters that could represent X game or Y Series: they are not going to cut characters in modern Smash to do so.

I gave a literal example when it was planned to happen but didn't (though usually I wouldn't expect a one-for-one replacement). Also, while Ike was planned to appear alongside Roy rather than strictly replace Roy, the newcomer Ike was still given much higher priority than the vet in that case, even when the vet was a clone. Ike only shows that newcomers can get higher priority than vets from the same series; the same could hypothetically happen with Sheik for a myriad of reasons.

For starters, there is not hard evidence that Jigglypuff was on the chopping block for Smash 4.

Not hard evidence, no, hence "all indicators point to it being low priority." I don't see any indicator of high priority among the vets that made it onto the back end of 4's roster.

ess was considered to be cut...in 2000. I am gonna have to stress that 2000 is not 2022.

But it shows that there was no hard-written "grandfather clause" of any sort from the start. Cuts were, at least since early dev Melee, considered as a possibility. Also, like with Jigglypuff, what we know of 4's rostering mentality implicates Ness as a low-priority vet for that game as well.

And AFAIK there are no statements or hard evidences about vets being prioritized more by virtue of being on the roster for longer. It's inevitably going to seem like that since series' first representatives are typically the more core characters. But there's no hard law, and the point of the example was to show replacement is possible in certain rare circumstances, so I don't see how it matters how long ago it was.

Characters like Sheik and Jigglypuff would not make sense if the roster went purely based off of relevancy or historical impact without 25 years of Smash being there to back them uo. That does not mean that they are ever likely cuts.

But it does mean that they are likelier cuts than other characters on the roster which are more important. Cuts weren't as likely in general when we only had ~35 characters to carry over from Brawl to 4. Now we have over twice as many on the block for Smash 6. Hence, a character like Jiggs who has barely made the cut before might actually get axed next time.

they even brought Sheik back in Smash 4 when the transformation gimmick was an issue instead of canning her

Do we know if there was any work on Sheik/ZSS before it was determined that transformations were not going to be possible on the 3DS? If transformations were in the initial project plan then we wouldn't know how Sheik would've been prioritized had such gimmicks been deemed impossible from the start. Maybe someone with knowledge of this situation can comment. In any case, being in 4 with relatively unknown priority level is hardly a guarantee of returning for 6.

This is not even going into the impact both have had on competitive Smash and how that has only bolstered their iconic status in Smash.

Sorry, but I find it very hard to take most arguments about the competitive scene seriously in the context of Smash rostering. Sure, it can have a soft impact on general popularity but I don't think Nintendo cares enough about the competitive scene for any hard impact. If Jiggs in particular has any "iconic in Smash" status at all, then it is literally predicated on how strange it is that it's on the roster in the first place.

Also Grandfather Clauses are an actual historical thing.

Haha I know. I was talking about the phrase as it pertains to Smash.

--

And I suppose it should be reiterated again that characters from the same company being a package deal is absolutely not a given. Assuming the package deal paradigm completely ignores the complexities of licensing and roster calculus. There is absolutely zero reason that, say, Sonic should have to drag Joker's dead weight along with him in order to be in Smash 6.

--

In other news, Scarlet and Violet seem to have spurred another round of "Switch hardware is outdated" articles from the media (though personally I would put the S/V issues on the devs and not on the Switch's capabilities). Anyway, I'm thinking the next console is not going to have quite as serious a performance increase as many would like, but will still be far enough ahead of the Switch that porting assets to the next Smash a la the 4-to-Ult transition will not be tenable.
Tbh, though, I don't think I'm ready for the next hardware yet. Despite all the clamoring for Switch Pro and whatnot, the OG Switch could still make it a while yet IMO.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, Sheik's chance to be cut was Brawl and only Brawl either way. There was no reason to cut her beyond that. As I said before, we don't know what HW entirely meant. Either she was planned for TP, scrapped, and said design was slightly modified for Brawl... or she was remade specifically for Brawl based upon what they'd imagine her if she was in TP. Either way, this request was easily kept, so even if it meant the latter, that means the idea that Sheik was pretty much a lock to come back as long as artwork was requested to begin with. Nobody was onboard with any Sheik cuts at that point.

4 wasn't a logical time either. She was a staple by then, easy to imagine fighting, was far easier to imagine separate that it was for two different Pokemon(who weren't anywhere near as iconic as Charizard was either, so it wasn't that hard to see their cuts. Their relevance in the anime was also massively lowered. Charizard was the only returning Gen 1 starter besides Pikachu among Ash's team as well on any notable basis by the time 4 rolled around. With their spotlight gone, they were easier lower priority.

The Zelda franchise didn't have an anime to look at for characters, so it's not going to work the same way. Nor is it similar to Metroid who barely got a second character by that point, and that had no chance for being cut outside of gameplay limitations. Pokemon had tons of characters and could afford two cuts since they were also based more around PT specifically. Keep in mind the history; Charizard was the only original one of the two Sakurai wanted on PT's team to stay. Blastoise was changed out for Squirtle, showing the water one was already variable. We heard nothing of Venusaur, meaning the grass Pokemon wasn't even... that important beyond the gimmick. It's pretty easy to imagine Charizard being added on its own. Squirtle and Ivysaur? They don't have the same high levels of iconicness. Blastoise? Sure. Venusaur? Mayyyyyyybe. Things just happened to go in a way overall that only left one on top.

Besides, Pokemon has had more cuts by now than Zelda or Mario. It's easy to see where the lower priority is. Mario's sole cut was a clone, who was meant to come back. Pokemon was easier to cut from event hen. Zelda had one cut overall, another clone, but this one was actually only because a new replacement for said clone(not the point it's the same character fully enough like a redesign, either). When you have the most characters, it's sometimes easier to prioritize their part of the roster a little less. Not always the case, but context and all. Of course, that was back then. Nowadays, there's little reason to believe we'll lose any Pokemon cut beyond a roster downsize. The most we'd lose out of Zelda is not keep both of the child versions of Link, and that gets more iffy with how majorly different they are. But development times are still a thing. I mean, Toon Link was one of the last characters added in Brawl too. Does that mean anything now? Nope. Mario is more odd cause the only two who are very cloney are easy as hell to add(but also quite well known). Of course, maybe we'll see Daisy slightly be more than 99% the same? Might be closer to 99.99999999%, heh.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Always i associate Nintendo's Holy Trinity with Mario, Zelda and Metroid, but lifetime sales tells a different story. (world of lust and crime)

That's a weird trinity, cause it's definitely Mario, Pokemon, Zelda. And this comes from me, a Donkey Kong fan.

About cutting Sheik, I was always in favor of this. Both Brawl and Smash 4 had their reasons for her inclusion. A separate Sheik is still a weird sight to me, I was in favor of Impa being the separate Sheik, but this didnt happen. This is for the better cause now Impa can make it on her own merrits.

 

[Ivander]

The thing is you can say that about plenty of echo fighters. Richter is not a 1 to 1 copy of Simon. Chrom certainly could have played differently than Roy, as Lucina could have from Marth. Dark Samus fights differently than Samus in her boss fights. Dark Pit easily could have been more different than Pit and used other weapons in his moveset or even get a semi clone treatment. I know some people have reservations about the echo fighter situation, mainly because they feel that a character should get a unique moveset or "deserves better". Should echos have a bit more variety to them? Absolutely. I would like more Chroms and less Dark Samuses. Id prefer things like a Dixie with a Hair twirl up B or differently animated but functionally identical throws to a Daisy style echo. I certainly would have preferred a more unique Dark Samus to what we got. She perhaps "deserved" better. But I would rather have Dark Samus than no Dark Samus.

Yes, you could make Dixie or Zack unique, but they easily could fit as echoes as well. You could make pretty much any character I had on that list unique from their source character. Just like they could have made Dark Samus or Dark Pit more unique from their source characters. Alas, they did not. Getting in Smash comes with sacrifices even for unique characters. I think the net positive of getting Dixie in Smash albeit as at best a Chrom tier echo of Diddy outweighs any grievances I could have about the lack of a unique Dixie. I'd rather have Zack or Roxas than no Zack or Roxas. Could they make Roxas unique as this dual wielding hyper aggressive swordsman? Yes, and that would be awesome. Would I be content with just a Roxas echo from Sora with slightly different Magic? Sure. At the end of the day, a large part of why people support characters to get in as an echo is because they want the character in and are willing to make sacrifices to do so. I would love Big Boss in Smash, but I am willing to have him as an echo if it gets him in. Same goes for Zack. Would it be cool to have a Crisis Core themed Zack? Sure, but I would be fine with just Zack as an echo of Cloud because it menas a character I like is in Smash.

You could want something like Dixie unique, but its very reasonable to say she would make a solid echo fighter. All that truly matters is enough surface level similarities and a similar body shape. I do not think Chrom is a dead ringer for Roy, but due to their similar builds and somewhat similar swordplay motifs it works. While I would have preferred a unique Dark Samus, having her as this floaty doppleganger of Samus also works. Despite what Jeff Golblum might say, the question is not whether they should for echoes: it is simply if they could.

• Chrom and Lucina can play differently from Marth and Roy, but at the time, they were chosen because they were decided to be easy Echoes. Lucina was almost straight out a costume for Marth until Sakurai decided to make her a clone to give her different idles, taunts and a different gimmick. Probably because in Awakening, Marth used the same model as Masked Marth, so technically they played the same. In Chrom's case, he was very popular and wanted, but rather than tie him to Marth who already has Lucina, they tied him to Roy, who is a semi-clone of Marth, and probably wanted to see how far they could go with an Echo fighter with giving him a different special from Roy's. And obviously, no one knows right now what they'll do for Lucina and Chrom in a future game.
• Dark Samus has Samus' suit. And Samus' suit is the stuff that has all of her equipment, including her beams, missiles, bombs and whatnot. So Dark Samus could in fact use any of Samus' gear. And in fact has. In her battle with Samus in Prime 2, besides using her Arm cannon, she does use a Zero Laser-like beam attack and even uses Samus' Morph and Boost Ball. Can she do different attacks and stuff? Yes. Can she use Samus' attacks? Yes she also can.
• Dark Pit could've used any of Uprising's new stuff and he certainly could've used his Staff more. However, Dark Pit can have and use the same weapons as Pit in Uprising. Pit uses Palutena's Bow while Dark Pit uses a Silver Bow, which is basically Palutena's Bow, but weaker and with a different color. And Dark Pit does fight the exact same way as Pit regardless of which weapon they wield, in both Dark Pit's boss battle and in Light vs Darkness.
• Richter isn't a 1 to 1 copy of Simon. In fact, it was Simon who was given Richter's moves, what with the slide kick, the spinning whip dash attack, the downward kick, Grand Cross, etc. Basically, Richter and Simon were made 1 to 1 to give each other an equal amount of moves and remain true to the Belmont playstyle in general. And I'm someone who thinks Simon and Richter could go even further with including Trevor and Julius Belmont.
• And Daisy is Daisy. She can either be different from Peach or the same. It just depends on what they want for her.
• Ken is the most different Echo and like I said, can be a good example of Echoes in terms of giving some different looking moves while retaining similar hitboxes or having different Final Smashes. Like I think Shadow could work as a Ken-like Echo.

And having characters be Echoes just so they can be in the game? That's exactly the main problem on why Echoes aren't taken seriously when discussing them. If characters can be Echoes without losing their uniqueness, that's fine, but characters shouldn't be Echoes for the sake of getting in because otherwise, they probably won't. The biggest draw of Smash Bros. is how unique, true and full of life it is to it's fighters.
If you keep putting in characters simply to get them in over keeping their personality and character intact and what unique things they have, that uniqueness and life degrades overtime and people will notice the difference. People give alot of flack for Fire Emblem and often Sword characters for being too similar and the last thing anybody wants is that to become very noticeable among alot of characters in general.
Daisy, Ken, Richter/Simon and Dark Pit don't lose their uniqueness or personality from being Echoes. An argument can be made for Chrom and Lucina, especially with later Fire Emblem games differentiating them from Marth and Roy more easily. And Dark Samus does keep her character intact, even if she loses a bit on uniqueness without her Phazon attacks, but she still keeps in character. Maybe slowly overtime, some of these Echoes like Dark Pit and Dark Samus, now that they are in, may slowly get new stuff overtime as games go on.

In regards to some of the characters, Dixie is shown to use her hair alot for stuff, from hovering to carrying stuff to even attacking enemies with her hair. Not to mention Dixie never uses any of Diddy's specials, from the Pop gun to the Jet Pack. Zack uses different Limit Breaks from Cloud, having access to Octoslash, Chain Slash, Rush Assault, Meteor Shots, etc.
Roxas may have the same moveset as Sora in KH2 Prologue and 358/2 Days, but I'm positive people want the dual-wielding to be more than just a one-time thing. The dual-wielding is definitely a big part about him. Even Axel emphasises with 'Two?!" It's the thing that made people want to know him and why he has two. I don't know how some other people will feel if his dual-wielding is reduced down to Final Smash status. Especially if it takes away some other potential Final Smashes, whether it'd be one of his big attacks from his KH2 battle or Axel and Xion being in his FS. And that even depends on if Disney is even okay with Roxas being an Echo.

Like I get wanting more characters in, but uniqueness and character should not be sacrificed for the sake of "adding more" or "being able to add that one character who wouldn't get in otherwise".

 

[Idon]

Character uniqueness is the lifeblood of representing their personality and capabilities. As such, echoes, characters created from compromising character uniqueness with limited time/resources and should not be expected or asked for in my opinion.
With enough compromises, you can make hundreds of characters match the framework of another character. We can literally see this with hundreds of mods on gamebanana, with extremes like Sora being put over Shulk and the like.

I would rather have the characters I like not in at all if they're going to be represented with a ramshackle forced pigeon-holing into some other character's moveset, which devalues both them and the source character's uniqueness, especially when Smash Bros is a very grandfather clause-y series where character quirks like recycled, modified, and borrowed movesets stay around more often then they're ever changed.

In the end, I think it comes down to personal opinion whether you're the type to go "At least they're in!" but I am firmly in the camp that believes any character that makes it into any fighting game should at least be somewhat unique and introduce a reason to pick them beyond their aesthetic. I think there's a good reason over the past 10 or 20 years we've had no clone characters in other fighting games.
Except for Tekken Panda who barely anyone cares about.

 

[Ivander]

I think there's a good reason over the past 10 or 20 years we've had no clone characters in other fighting games.

looks at Soul Calibur V Past 10 years. Maybe would've had less had Namco supported the developers instead of not giving it a chance.

 

[fogbadge]

my own thoughts on the matter is shiek wont be cut for much the same reason why doc wasn't turned into a costume and why ganondorf will never be decloned: sakurai thinks it would upset fans

 

[Diddy Kong]

my own thoughts on the matter is shiek wont be cut for much the same reason why doc wasn't turned into a costume and why ganondorf will never be decloned: sakurai thinks it would upset fans

Cuts will happen regardless, and as far as non clones go, I think Sheik should indeed be one of the first considered for not returning. Especially if they want a fresh start for the messy Zelda cast in Smash. Three semi clones and Sheik is just not great representation.

 

[osby]

You know, so many people in this thread don't realize that Smash is a game by itself on top of representing other games through its content.

Cutting and adding characters purely based on achieving the hypothetical ideal roster is meaningless if the end result won't make for a good Smash game. And you don't make a good fighting game by throwing out as many working concepts as possible and demoting all clone characters into costumes.

 

[fogbadge]

Cuts will happen regardless, and as far as non clones go, I think Sheik should indeed be one of the first considered for not returning. Especially if they want a fresh start for the messy Zelda cast in Smash. Three semi clones and Sheik is just not great representation.

i know cuts will happen it's inevitable. but shiek's been in 4 games now i imagine sakurai will be very wary of cutting her

 

[Aligo]

To be fair Sheik has survived traditionally due to being popular competitively and having a unique niche in fighting style. All the cuts in the past have been characters with low play rates, or were replaced with a newer character, so expect them to be the first to go.

 

[Stratos]

I had written when I commented on the Paradox Pokémon of Pokémon Violet that I wouldn't say anything about the Paradox Pokémon in Pokémon Scarlet, but finally I have to write about some Paradox Pokémon from there and that is Sandy Shocks. Sandy Shocks are Electric/Ground type as it is known even though it have a metallic look and look like Magneton.