Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Garteam]

In regards to some of the characters, Dixie is shown to use her hair alot for stuff, from hovering to carrying stuff to even attacking enemies with her hair. Not to mention Dixie never uses any of Diddy's specials, from the Pop gun to the Jet Pack.
o.

Diddy Kong only uses two of his special moves in the Donkey Kong series, though. Monkey Flip and Banana Peel are effectively made up unless you want to count Mario Kart as the inspiration for the latter. Peanut Popgun can easily be swapped to the Bubblegum Popgun Dixie wields in Tropical Freeze. For Rocketbarrell boost, you can just make that a Barrell Blast reference or transfer a modified Spinning Kong to her like with Chrom getting a modified version of Aether instead of Blazer. Give her a modified dash attack based on DKC2 and the ability to move quickly with large objects like Donkey Kong using her hair, then you've got most of her differences from DKC2.

When someone proposes an echo fighter, it's not born out of a belief that the character couldn't have a unique move set or that they aren't deserving or whatever. It's more an acknowledgment that echoes are a thing that exists and the next Smash game will likely add more because they're an easy way to get some extra faces into the roster. This is especially true for characters that would otherwise miss the boat if they couldn't be echoes. Let's be real here, Zack and Roxas could be unique fighters, but they have a snowball's chance in hell at a unique moveset.

Would people rather have a unique Dark Samus moveset rather than one where she uses Samus' abilities, most of which have never been used onscreen before? Yes, but they'd also take echo Dark Samus over not having her be playable at all.

 

[Gengar84]

Diddy Kong only uses two of his special moves in the Donkey Kong series, though. Monkey Flip and Banana Peel are effectively made up unless you want to count Mario Kart as the inspiration for the latter. Peanut Popgun can easily be swapped to the Bubblegum Popgun Dixie wields in Tropical Freeze. For Rocketbarrell boost, you can just make that a Barrell Blast reference or transfer a modified Spinning Kong to her like with Chrom getting a modified version of Aether instead of Blazer. Give her a modified dash attack based on DKC2 and the ability to move quickly with large objects like Donkey Kong using her hair, then you've got most of her differences from DKC2.

When someone proposes an echo fighter, it's not born out of a belief that the character couldn't have a unique move set or that they aren't deserving or whatever. It's more an acknowledgment that echoes are a thing that exists and the next Smash game will likely add more because they're an easy way to get some extra faces into the roster. This is especially true for characters that would otherwise miss the boat if they couldn't be echoes. Let's be real here, Zack and Roxas could be unique fighters, but they have a snowball's chance in hell at a unique moveset.

Would people rather have a unique Dark Samus moveset rather than one where she uses Samus' abilities, most of which have never been used onscreen before? Yes, but they'd also take echo Dark Samus over not having her be playable at all.

I can agree with that but also believe that echoes are best used for characters that weren’t likely to ever get in on their own or have little moveset potential that would make them stand out. I feel that Dixie doesn’t fit either of these so I think she’d be more fitting as a unique character. I’d take an echo over nothing but it kind of defeats the purpose of one of my main reasons for wanting her in the first place.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

To me, there are two reasons why an Echo couldn’t work, aside from size/hitbox differences:

1. The proposed Echo doesn’t use the attacks of the original character.
2. The proposed Echo uses attacks integral to the character that the original character doesn’t use.

Still, Smash has already stretched these two factors up quite a bit: Daisy has never used Turnips or Toads (or at the very least not to the extent Peach has) and is much less associated with a Parasol than Peach is (although I think the connection between Peach and her Parasol might originate in Melee? Not sure). Daisy’s Flower Power too is much less present in the set, but aside from that no power or traits is explicitly lacking in Peach’s portrayal. Any emphasis Daisy fans placed on Mario Party 3 uppercuts to me read like overcorrecting the claim that she‘s too similar to Peach personality-wise, otherwise the set works fine for her.

Dark Samus is much more associated with the second factor, as any Phazon attacks she used in her Assist Trophy portrayal in Smash 4 got cut. “Dark Samus’ suit is a copy of Samus’” does away with the first complaint, but it can very much be argued that Dark Samus needs more than animation to properly represent herself, especially since Samus’ set is so outdated. (This is also why I think Octolings are absolutely capable of being Echoes: Nothing inherent to them needs them to use the newest weapons aside the fact the Inkling moveset is so barebones in that department.)

In itself, there’s nothing wrong with giving Dixie the Echo label: The differences between Ryu and Ken still fell under the label, and her core ability can be captured in a recovery move a la Chrom, also swapping out the biggest offender of a Diddy-exclusive power in his set in the meantime. On the other hand, Echo is just a label: Isabelle and Dr Mario no doubt also saved resources in lending from their parent character without having the Echo label attached.

 

[Gengar84]

To me, there are two reasons why an Echo couldn’t work, aside from size/hitbox differences:

1. The proposed Echo doesn’t use the attacks of the original character.
2. The proposed Echo uses attacks integral to the character that the original character doesn’t use.

Still, Smash has already stretched these two factors up quite a bit: Daisy has never used Turnips or Toads (or at the very least not to the extent Peach has) and is much less associated with a Parasol than Peach is (although I think the connection between Peach and her Parasol might originate in Melee? Not sure). Daisy’s Flower Power too is much less present in the set, but aside from that no power or traits is explicitly lacking in Peach’s portrayal. Any emphasis Daisy fans placed on Mario Party 3 uppercuts to me read like overcorrecting the claim that she‘s too similar to Peach personality-wise, otherwise the set works fine for her.

Dark Samus is much more associated with the second factor, as any Phazon attacks she used in her Assist Trophy portrayal in Smash 4 got cut. “Dark Samus’ suit is a copy of Samus’” does away with the first complaint, but it can very much be argued that Dark Samus needs more than animation to properly represent herself, especially since Samus’ set is so outdated. (This is also why I think Octolings are absolutely capable of being Echoes: Nothing inherent to them needs them to use the newest weapons aside the fact the Inkling moveset is so barebones in that department.)

In itself, there’s nothing wrong with giving Dixie the Echo label: The differences between Ryu and Ken still fell under the label, and her core ability can be captured in a recovery move a la Chrom, also swapping out the biggest offender of a Diddy-exclusive power in his set in the meantime. On the other hand, Echo is just a label: Isabelle and Dr Mario no doubt also saved resources in lending from their parent character without having the Echo label attached.

My issue is that Diddy and Dixie share nothing in common besides their peanut gun and bubble gum gun and the fact that they are both monkeys. Diddy has a tail and Dixie uses her hair a lot, for starters. It’s not just that they haven’t used each other’s moves, but that they physically can’t in many cases due to lacking a tail or hair.

I also think a lot more can be done to represent the mechanics and flavor of the original games than add made up attacks the characters never used. Dixie’s addition would give us a chance to see that in my opinion.

I don’ understand how everyone was pretty unanimously against the idea of the ARMS characters being alts while many are on board for a Dixie echo. The reasoning is the same in each case in my opinion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I can agree with that but also believe that echoes are best used for characters that weren’t likely to ever get in on their own or have little moveset potential that would make them stand out. I feel that Dixie doesn’t fit either of these so I think she’d be more fitting as a unique character. I’d take an echo over nothing but it kind of defeats the purpose of one of my main reasons for wanting her in the first place.

Little Moveset potential really isn't a factor anyway for an echo.

The only things that actually make a plausible echo are; Bodyshape, would they even be chosen otherwise, are they capable of performing the same general moveset. And technically the same weight, but that's not officially anywhere near close enough to be a clear factor.

The logical problem people are forgetting with Dixie is that she does play exactly like Diddy bar a few exclusive moves. They barely had any differences in most games. And they still have the same general bodyshape. This isn't like Isabelle who has different proportions overall from Villager either(which is the only reason she can't outright be one. It helped she had extra optional abilities, but you can do that just fine with Dixie via a few hair attacks and still make her an echo anyway). Yeah, it'd be cool if she was a clone or semi-clone, but nothing actually prevents her from fitting the echo mold either. The only time we had an issue is when Diddy had too many tail attacks, requiring her to be too unique for it, but that's gone now.

Even with her new obvious Up B, and maybe a few throws, that wouldn't really separate her needed hitboxes nor require such severe work. Basically, she'd at most have to be a Chrom or Ken level echo if that was her only real chance to get in. Of course, unlike Dark Samus, she at least is prominent enough to get in as an Echo, a Clone, or a Semi-Clone depending upon what Sakurai is looking for. Or Unique if they give her a partner character(which was her actual core plan to get in and what got her scrapped. Despite being chosen before K. Rool, she became clearly lower priority for a while now. Why? Who knows. Though it's not hard to see at least that the ballot pushing the Kremling was more important. It sounds more like she's an afterthought character that Sakurai would like in, but hasn't found a good way to implement her that is satisfactory not just to the fanbase, but to what he wants. This is probably why she wasn't an easy Echo. Being solo may also be the problem he has with implementing her too). She's the obvious next choice, of course, but in what way she's added is the far bigger thing.

 

[Gengar84]

Little Moveset potential really isn't a factor anyway for an echo.

The only things that actually make a plausible echo are; Bodyshape, would they even be chosen otherwise, are they capable of performing the same general moveset. And technically the same weight, but that's not officially anywhere near close enough to be a clear factor.

The logical problem people are forgetting with Dixie is that she does play exactly like Diddy bar a few exclusive moves. They barely had any differences in most games. And they still have the same general bodyshape. This isn't like Isabelle who has different proportions overall from Villager either(which is the only reason she can't outright be one. It helped she had extra optional abilities, but you can do that just fine with Dixie via a few hair attacks and still make her an echo anyway). Yeah, it'd be cool if she was a clone or semi-clone, but nothing actually prevents her from fitting the echo mold either. The only time we had an issue is when Diddy had too many tail attacks, requiring her to be too unique for it, but that's gone now.

Even with her new obvious Up B, and maybe a few throws, that wouldn't really separate her needed hitboxes nor require such severe work. Basically, she'd at most have to be a Chrom or Ken level echo if that was her only real chance to get in. Of course, unlike Dark Samus, she at least is prominent enough to get in as an Echo, a Clone, or a Semi-Clone depending upon what Sakurai is looking for. Or Unique if they give her a partner character(which was her actual core plan to get in and what got her scrapped. Despite being chosen before K. Rool, she became clearly lower priority for a while now. Why? Who knows. Though it's not hard to see at least that the ballot pushing the Kremling was more important. It sounds more like she's an afterthought character that Sakurai would like in, but hasn't found a good way to implement her that is satisfactory not just to the fanbase, but to what he wants. This is probably why she wasn't an easy Echo. Being solo may also be the problem he has with implementing her too). She's the obvious next choice, of course, but in what way she's added is the far bigger thing.

What moves do the two share in the original trilogy? They have completely different dash attacks, grabs, and attributes. I can’t think of a single move they shared beyond standard platforming mechanics like jumping on an enemies head. DKC 2 is one of my favorite games ever and I’ve always thought the two play very differently in that game.

How is a Dixie echo of Diddy any different than a Bandana Dee echo of Kirby? Dee and Kirby share the same body type too but no one is asking for BWD to be an echo. I’m not suggesting that Dee should be an echo either but I feel he and Dixie have the same reasons why neither should.

 

[osby]

I can agree with that but also believe that echoes are best used for characters that weren’t likely to ever get in on their own or have little moveset potential that would make them stand out. I feel that Dixie doesn’t fit either of these so I think she’d be more fitting as a unique character. I’d take an echo over nothing but it kind of defeats the purpose of one of my main reasons for wanting her in the first place.

After Dixie missed three games in a row despite being considered for Brawl, I'm not sure if I'd consider her "likely to get on her own" anymore, tbh.

DKC fans always talk a big game about wanting her but when push comes to shove, they were faster at jumping the Banjo train after K.Rool rather than rallying up behind her. For such a prominent character, the fans behind her are surprisingly quiet.

While she's one of my most wanted Nintendo characters, I think she'd be lucky to get into the next Smash game even as an echo.

 

[Gengar84]

After Dixie missed three games in a row despite being considered for Brawl, I'm not sure if I'd consider her "likely to get on her own" anymore, tbh.

DKC fans always talk a big game about wanting her but when push comes to shove, they were faster at jumping the Banjo train after K.Rool rather than rallying up behind her. For such a prominent character, the fans behind her are surprisingly quiet.

While she's one of my most wanted Nintendo characters, I think she'd be lucky to get into the next Smash game even as an echo.

Well, the thing is that those other characters are already in Smash now. There are only so many iconic first party characters left to add and I think she’s a strong contender at this point. Also, I feel like it’s wrong to assume that all the same people asking for Dixie were the same ones asking for Banjo. I’m sure several overlap but a lot of people likely want Dixie and were indifferent to Banjo and vice versa.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

After Dixie missed three games in a row despite being considered for Brawl, I'm not sure if I'd consider her "likely to get on her own" anymore, tbh.

DKC fans always talk a big game about wanting her but when push comes to shove, they were faster at jumping the Banjo train after K.Rool rather than rallying up behind her. For such a prominent character, the fans behind her are surprisingly quiet.

While she's one of my most wanted Nintendo characters, I think she'd be lucky to get into the next Smash game even as an echo.

Honestly building on this, I feel like Dixie disproportionately does better in terms of demand on Smashboards in particular than she does outside of it.

Is she unpopular? I wouldn’t say that, but Smashboards is naturally kinder to her. It trends more hardcore and is more generous to first parties broadly imo. There’s a reason she has had one of the most active support threads on the site during the Ultimate speculation era.

That being said, I do second that I think many people just assumed K Rool support would just flock to Dixie when honestly in the wild I would say that didn’t pan out. It’s honestly fascinating how Dixie disproportionately does so much better here while other 90s characters got more of a windfall than she did in support in the wild. While there was an overlap between Dixie and K Rool fans, I have seen plenty of k rool fans flock towards picks like Banjo and them Crash and Rayman rather than Dixie. People on here treat Dixie like she is “the last Nintendo all star” not in the game and so on. She’s a notable omission sure, but that’s such a big leap.

I am not saying Dixie is unlikely, I think she’s got a solid shot, but Smashboards and this part of the fandom does tend to over estimate her at least a little.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

What moves do the two share in the original trilogy? They have completely different dash attacks, grabs, and attributes. I can’t think of a single move they shared beyond standard platforming mechanics like jumping on an enemies head. DKC 2 is one of my favorite games ever and I’ve always thought the two play very differently in that game.

How is a Dixie echo of Diddy any different than a Bandana Dee echo of Kirby? Dee and Kirby share the same body type too but no one is asking for BWD to be an echo. I’m not suggesting that Dee should be an echo either but I feel he and Dixie have the same reasons why neither should.

Jumping in because this is horse ****. The original trilogy gives each character the same basic toolkit and each of them has one unique ability, maybe two of they are lucky, not even close to enough to represent a full Smash moveset. There is absolutely no reason Dixie needs to have unique A attacks when she literally has the same proportions as Diddy. Unique specials is one thing, but they are still both monkeys.

Yes Bandana is roughly the same body shape as Kirby but he canonically wields a weapon, ergo since Kirby does not they can't be echoes.

 

[Oracle Link]

Jumping in because this is horse ****. The original trilogy gives each character the same basic toolkit and each of them has one unique ability, maybe two of they are lucky, not even close to enough to represent a full Smash moveset. There is absolutely no reason Dixie needs to have unique A attacks when she literally has the same proportions as Diddy. Unique specials is one thing, but they are still both monkeys.

Yes Bandana is roughly the same body shape as Kirby but he canonically wields a weapon, ergo since Kirby does not they can't be echoes.

Ha One thing you could just give Kirby a Spear Hehe!

 

[Sucumbio]

To me, there are two reasons why an Echo couldn’t work, aside from size/hitbox differences:

1. The proposed Echo doesn’t use the attacks of the original character.
2. The proposed Echo uses attacks integral to the character that the original character doesn’t use.

Still, Smash has already stretched these two factors up quite a bit: Daisy has never used Turnips or Toads (or at the very least not to the extent Peach has) and is much less associated with a Parasol than Peach is (although I think the connection between Peach and her Parasol might originate in Melee? Not sure). Daisy’s Flower Power too is much less present in the set, but aside from that no power or traits is explicitly lacking in Peach’s portrayal. Any emphasis Daisy fans placed on Mario Party 3 uppercuts to me read like overcorrecting the claim that she‘s too similar to Peach personality-wise, otherwise the set works fine for her.

Dark Samus is much more associated with the second factor, as any Phazon attacks she used in her Assist Trophy portrayal in Smash 4 got cut. “Dark Samus’ suit is a copy of Samus’” does away with the first complaint, but it can very much be argued that Dark Samus needs more than animation to properly represent herself, especially since Samus’ set is so outdated. (This is also why I think Octolings are absolutely capable of being Echoes: Nothing inherent to them needs them to use the newest weapons aside the fact the Inkling moveset is so barebones in that department.)

In itself, there’s nothing wrong with giving Dixie the Echo label: The differences between Ryu and Ken still fell under the label, and her core ability can be captured in a recovery move a la Chrom, also swapping out the biggest offender of a Diddy-exclusive power in his set in the meantime. On the other hand, Echo is just a label: Isabelle and Dr Mario no doubt also saved resources in lending from their parent character without having the Echo label attached.

This is why to me Black Knight should not be an echo of Ike. They're just too different.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

My issue is that Diddy and Dixie share nothing in common besides their peanut gun and bubble gum gun and the fact that they are both monkeys. Diddy has a tail and Dixie uses her hair a lot, for starters. It’s not just that they haven’t used each other’s moves, but that they physically can’t in many cases due to lacking a tail or hair.

I also think a lot more can be done to represent the mechanics and flavor of the original games than add made up attacks the characters never used. Dixie’s addition would give us a chance to see that in my opinion.

I don’ understand how everyone was pretty unanimously against the idea of the ARMS characters being alts while many are on board for a Dixie echo. The reasoning is the same in each case in my opinion.

Diddy does not use any tail-based moves in Smash and his moveset is pretty much built around the basic premise of a “monkey based” set, which he and Dixie definitely have in common. It’s far from the first time a character doesn‘t use the full extent of their potential and it irks me to see that Dixie fans insist on that treatment when many Echoes have not gotten such luxury.

The ARMS characters do not work as alts because alts simply have very strict rules about them, where basic animation differences have caused an upgrade from alt to Echo. Echoes have shown a wide range of leniency while keeping the Echo label, which means the reasoning might be the same for the ARMS situation, but the amount of wiggle room present in the echo label allows for more discussion.

This is why to me Black Knight should not be an echo of Ike. They're just too different.

I can’t imagine Black Knight sharing hit- and hurtboxes with Ike which is already a golden ticket to semi-clone status (i.e. Isabelle)

 

[Gengar84]

Jumping in because this is horse ****. The original trilogy gives each character the same basic toolkit and each of them has one unique ability, maybe two of they are lucky, not even close to enough to represent a full Smash moveset. There is absolutely no reason Dixie needs to have unique A attacks when she literally has the same proportions as Diddy. Unique specials is one thing, but they are still both monkeys.

Yes Bandana is roughly the same body shape as Kirby but he canonically wields a weapon, ergo since Kirby does not they can't be echoes.

And Dixie’s entire gimmick is using her hair to fight and float around, which Diddy doesn’t have. The way Dixie holds barrels is very different than Diddy. Dixie is also slower and floatier than Diddy. None of their moves share the same animation. Her running attack is a standing hair spin while Diddy’s is a cartwheel. That’s like saying Mario and Peach played the same in Super Mario Bros. 2. Besides body type, Peach has more in common with Mario in that game than Dixie has with Diddy in DKC2.

There’s nothing stopping BWD from kicking like Kirby and saving his weapon for a special or two the same way nothing is stopping Dixie from not using her hair to fight. Yes, I agree BWD wouldn’t really work as a Kirby echo for those reasons but I feel the same is true for Dixie. Technically, she COULD be an echo, but that’s true for literally any two characters from the same series that share a body type in that case.

 

[Diddy Kong]

i know cuts will happen it's inevitable. but shiek's been in 4 games now i imagine sakurai will be very wary of cutting her

Yet every game but Ultimate almost got rid of Jigglypuff. It's not really an argument as Sheik doesn't have many reasons to stay outside of popularity through being a long time veteran, eho was added as a transformation gimmick character to a character that doesn't have this gimmick for two games now.

Zelda needs better representation anyway, I'd get rid of Sheik if it means a fully new unique Zelda newcomer. And of course I want that to be Impa, Link, Zelda, Impa, a variation of Ganon and a child Link seems a way better representation than what we have now.

 

[Gengar84]

I apologize if I upset anyone here with my opinions on Dixie Kong. At the end of the day, they’re just my opinions and I don’t mean to suggest that everyone else is wrong. I just personally feel that Dixie is much more suited to a unique character and that she would lose most of what made her interesting if they just went with an echo because it’s a generic monkey moveset. I’m already not too satisfied with how they handled Donkey Kong so a second Kong that didn’t fully utilize what makes them or the series unique would be a let down personally.

 

[SPEN18]

You know, so many people in this thread don't realize that Smash is a game by itself on top of representing other games through its content.

Cutting and adding characters purely based on achieving the hypothetical ideal roster is meaningless if the end result won't make for a good Smash game. And you don't make a good fighting game by throwing out as many working concepts as possible and demoting all clone characters into costumes.

Well, obviously Smash has to be a well-designed game on its own aside from importing things from other franchises. But the hard truth is that no individual character/moveset or group of characters/movesets is essential to that particular goal. If you take virtually any selection of 50+ Nintendo characters, then you're going to be able to make a good game out of it because the core mechanics of Smash are so sound. And the more core characters are not inherently less diverse. It is no loss to use the most important ones.

And it's not throwing out working concepts in a vacuum; it's reprioritizing those concepts relative to other important considerations and equally/more interesting alternative concepts.

If anything, clones in particular take away from immersion; they are a simple product and conspicuous reminder of the realities of limited-budget development calculus and nothing more. Ideally, there would be no need for cloning at all; we haven't at this point reached that ideal and I think that it still makes sense to clone in particular instances and to particular degrees, but I don't think cloning should be done willy-nilly.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

And Dixie’s entire gimmick is using her hair to fight and float around, which Diddy doesn’t have. The way Dixie holds barrels is very different than Diddy. Dixie is also slower and floatier than Diddy. None of their moves share the same animation. Her running attack is a standing hair spin while Diddy’s is a cartwheel. That’s like saying Mario and Peach played the same in Super Mario Bros. 2. Besides body type, Peach has more in common with Mario in that game than Dixie has with Diddy in DKC2.

There’s nothing stopping BWD from kicking like Kirby and saving his weapon for a special or two the same way nothing is stopping Dixie from not using her hair to fight. Yes, I agree BWD wouldn’t really work as a Kirby echo for those reasons but I feel the same is true for Dixie. Technically, she COULD be an echo, but that’s true for literally any two characters from the same series that share a body type in that case.

Difference is that Dixie’s hair is not primarily been used to fight, but that the most salient usage of her hair is that of a mobility tool. That can be present through jump animations and a Spinning Kong Up B, whereas Bandana Dee’s spear is his primary weapon that would lead to Brawl-Ganondorf-pulling-out-a-sword shenanigans at best.

I apologize if I upset anyone here with my opinions on Dixie Kong. At the end of the day, they’re just my opinions and I don’t mean to suggest that everyone else is wrong. I just personally feel that Dixie is much more suited to a unique character and that she would lose most of what made her interesting if they just went with an echo because it’s a generic monkey moveset. I’m already not too satisfied with how they handled Donkey Kong so a second Kong that didn’t fully utilize what makes them or the series unique would be a let down personally.

Personally I’m arguing devil’s advocate a bit more than that I believe that Dixie should be an echo, but now I am curious how you would tackle a Dixie set, because to me the sets where her specials are general Donkey Kong elements like Rambi give the appearance that Dixie doesn‘t have too many elements unique to her specifically.

 

[fogbadge]

Yet every game but Ultimate almost got rid of Jigglypuff. It's not really an argument as Sheik doesn't have many reasons to stay outside of popularity through being a long time veteran, eho was added as a transformation gimmick character to a character that doesn't have this gimmick for two games now.

Zelda needs better representation anyway, I'd get rid of Sheik if it means a fully new unique Zelda newcomer. And of course I want that to be Impa, Link, Zelda, Impa, a variation of Ganon and a child Link seems a way better representation than what we have now.

by the same reasoning the doctor mario have a need to come back?

 

[Gengar84]

Difference is that Dixie’s hair is not primarily been used to fight, but that the most salient usage of her hair is that of a mobility tool. That can be present through jump animations and a Spinning Kong Up B, whereas Bandana Dee’s spear is his primary weapon that would lead to Brawl-Ganondorf-pulling-out-a-sword shenanigans at best.



Personally I’m arguing devil’s advocate a bit more than that I believe that Dixie should be an echo, but now I am curious how you would tackle a Dixie set, because to me the sets where her specials are general Donkey Kong elements like Rambi give the appearance that Dixie doesn‘t have too many elements unique to her specifically.

I think my two ideas for my ideal Dixie moveset are a bit controversial in their own right. I can expand on them later but I’d go one of two routes: Either a moveset based around summoning various animal buddies for her specials or a tag team mechanic with Kiddy Kong that utilizes the mechanics in DKC where you can pick up and throw your partner to navigate and attack. Neither mechanic is exclusive to Dixie but I feel that both go a long way in representing the series as a whole while making her stand out from Diddy. Of course, there would be plenty of room to utilize her signature hair attacks and float with either set.

 

[SPEN18]

On Dixie, I think the change to the Up-B on its own might be enough to put her out of Echo status. Yeah, yeah, we have Chrom. But Diddy's recovery is pretty non-standard, especially when put next to Roy's, and vastly functionally distinct from any of the ways I'd imagine Dixie's helicopter hair move working. This could very likely throw off the balancing enough to necessitate some other tweaks as well. Throw in any potential changes due to tail/hair shenanigans or different stats and we are already moving very quickly away from Echo territory. I would guess that a Fox/Wolf situation is the bare minimum she'd get if she were added.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think my two ideas for my ideal Dixie moveset are a bit controversial in their own right. I can expand on them later but I’d go one of two routes: Either a moveset based around summoning various animal buddies for her specials or a tag team mechanic with Kiddy Kong that utilizes the mechanics in DKC where you can pick up and throw your partner to navigate and attack. Neither mechanic is exclusive to Dixie but I feel that both go a long way in representing the series as a whole while making her stand out from Diddy. Of course, there would be plenty of room to utilize her signature hair attacks and float with either set.

I can see how those would be neat, but they also have that Octoling problem of being more about giving the series a second chance at a good moveset than about the character itself.

On Dixie, I think the change to the Up-B on its own might be enough to put her out of Echo status. Yeah, yeah, we have Chrom. But Diddy's recovery is pretty non-standard, especially when put next to Roy's, and vastly functionally distinct from any of the ways I'd imagine Dixie's helicopter hair move working. This could very likely throw off the balancing enough to necessitate some other tweaks as well. Throw in any potential changes due to tail/hair shenanigans or different stats and we are already moving very quickly away from Echo territory. I would guess that a Fox/Wolf situation is the bare minimum she'd get if she were added.

It’s true that the Echo label is entirely arbitrary, but Wolf and Fox have entirely different normals which is much more than a new Up B and balance changes. Isabelle would be a better comparison for that. Ideally the Wolf type of semi-clone returns in the next Smash, but if push comes to shove and she needs to use a majority of Diddy’s normals, she could.

 

[Gengar84]

I can see how those would be neat, but they also have that Octoling problem of being more about giving the series a second chance at a good moveset than about the character itself.



It’s true that the Echo label is entirely arbitrary, but Wolf and Fox have entirely different normals which is much more than a new Up B and balance changes. Isabelle would be a better comparison for that. Ideally the Wolf type of semi-clone returns in the next Smash, but if push comes to shove and she needs to use a majority of Diddy’s normals, she could.

I can understand that argument but I still feel it is far better than giving her several attacks from Diddy that she’s never used just because she theoretically could because she’s a monkey. Basically, I’d much rather take a faithful DKC set than a generic monkey set. I love Dixie as a character but I feel there is plenty of room in her moveset to give her all of her unique attacks and represent the series as a whole in one set.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

by the same reasoning the doctor mario have a need to come back?

Not sure where you weigh on this, but I actually do believe Doctor Mario has basically no reason to be here. Like, Shiek had the excuse of being the alternative to Zelda for a couple of games, but Doctor Mario has been another Mario on a different slot every time. Not just figuratively, literally too. Throughout the three reigns of the Doc, he's really just been an adaptation of Mario, with not many alterations beyond a slightly different Neutral B, or in 4 onwards' case, retaining Mario's old Down B. Yet most of those traits also were put on Luigi in 64, before Doc even debuted in Smash. At that point, I fail to see why he couldn't have been a costume. Especially in Smash 4, where custom moves could've been a means to reintroduce the Doc's kit. Instead of utterly contradicting Sakurai's claim there would not be clones.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The issue with Dixie comes down to timing. If she had popped up in Brawl with a moveset based around animal buddies, hair attacks, and/or barrels, I doubt there would have been that fuss kicked up because fighters were often amalgamations/approximations of elements from their various games in those days. Diddy (at least to me) certainly doesn't feel like a direct translation of him from the games (even DK64) but it was how characters were largely done.

Coming in now though, when the fighter design is typically closer to making them feel how they do in the games? There's a sense that Dixie as she plays in DKC2/DKC3/Tropical Freeze either can't entirely translate as a fighter (if she wants to feel unique) or at the very least has to be a clone/semi-clone/echo of Diddy given their similarities in the DK series itself. But again, that's more of a contemporary design philosophy, one that no more has to be stuck to than the notion that Fire Emblem character needs to have a counter for their down special.

Speaking personally, Dixie getting in and being similar to Diddy is my worst case scenario not only because I never really felt the latter was that great to play with, but also because there are so many interesting elements from the DKC series like animal buddies or the Kong Pow Meter that could be utilized to great effect. Quite frankly it would feel like a waste to not see them implemented only because of the belief that Dixie must feel as close to 1 to 1 with how she controls in the Country titles to be included.

 

[fogbadge]

I actually do believe Doctor Mario has basically no reason to be here.

thank you

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What moves do the two share in the original trilogy? They have completely different dash attacks, grabs, and attributes. I can’t think of a single move they shared beyond standard platforming mechanics like jumping on an enemies head. DKC 2 is one of my favorite games ever and I’ve always thought the two play very differently in that game.

Well, besides being told otherwise by another user(I do feel it was a bit too aggressive towards you, though), are you confusing animations with programming? Remember, many characters have different animations but they work identically otherwise. The sole difference among any grab would be their range in most cases. The various psychic grabs in Smash, for example, aren't really much different at all.

Cause I remember them playing nearly the same as is. With just some standard unique abilities. Basically the same as Sonic/Tails/Knuckles in Sonic 2-3(&Knuckles). As well as the first Advanced, where only Amy even stood out. Advances 2 and 3 were more changed up. Player 1 and 2 usually aren't actually that different in these kind of platformers, and for good reasons. Other than having unique skills, they play near identically for balance reasons.

That said, I do want to bring up the thing about Dixie's few things that would be entirely different from Diddy, even in Smash; the Haircopter is not a unique Up B. It has little difference to Spinning Kong for all intents and purposes, especially as the animation files are very easy to reuse. I actually thought they couldn't be, but someone who knew more of the programming explained the skeleton factor. This leaves after that, mainly the throws and jabs. How much can't Dixie really do of Diddy's moveset? Not "won't", but literally "can't". Of course I'd expect her to use her hair far more for jabs too if she was a clone or semi-clone, but as an Echo, most of it doesn't really seem that odd. The tail attacks are gone(and those would require a full animation change either way to get the same hitboxes), which mainly leaves the differences in the grab and throw.

She'd easily grab with her hair... but what of her single attack while grabbing or her throws would need to be outright different from Diddy to work? A single new grab animation and a new Up B which is a retool of an existing character(who even has the same overall build, just larger), is not massive work. Chrom's Up B, for an exact example, was a retool of Ike's Up B. The reason of why it worked is because both Chrom and Ike had very similar builds, making it easy to retool faster than ever. In the case of Spinning Kong, DK's build is the same as Dixie's. They're proportionate, which means remaking the skeleton that uses Spinning Kong into her Haircopter(forgive me if I'm getting this move's name wrong) isn't even difficult overall. No more than Chrom's Up B would be. With that in mind, there's not entirely much you need to do to make it work(which is more the issue that many people have, that she somehow can't be one despite being able to do nearly everything anyway. That's not saying she should or would be one. Just that she could be one). Her get up/ledge attack animations using her hair might be a bit unique too.

Not knocking your moveset ideas at all, btw. Those are pretty cool.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Yet every game but Ultimate almost got rid of Jigglypuff. It's not really an argument as Sheik doesn't have many reasons to stay outside of popularity through being a long time veteran, eho was added as a transformation gimmick character to a character that doesn't have this gimmick for two games now.

Zelda needs better representation anyway, I'd get rid of Sheik if it means a fully new unique Zelda newcomer. And of course I want that to be Impa, Link, Zelda, Impa, a variation of Ganon and a child Link seems a way better representation than what we have now.

Cuts have never worked like that. The only time a cut was ever considered like that was Ness for Lucas in Melee...which was over 20 years ago... and 2022 is not 2000... and every cut we have actually had was clearly not due to some sort of cut X to add Y mentality. The alternative to Sheik is not getting Impa or some other Zelda newcomer. It is just not having Sheik. Adding a new character is hard. You need to design their moveset from the ground up, research them, animate them, code them, and balance them. Veterans are far easier to add because a large chunk of that work is done. Sheik already has a moveset that is fleshed out and outside of the usual bells and whistles of updating the vet and balancing them is easy to add in. Conversely, adding a new Zelda character would be far, far more resource intensive. You can not want Sheik in the game, but you are not going to get Impa by Sheik not being there. Any Zelda newcomer is going to get in the game on their own merits.

If anything, cutting Sheik would only make the Zelda representation worse. Zelda already has surprisingly few characters, and half of them are Link. I think one of Young Link or Toon Link is a very reasonable cut, with the latter being far more likely to stick around imo. So the response of people who complain about how Zelda is represented is...to cut one of their few unique characters because people still think that addition equals subtraction. This is just another case of letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sure, you can dream of that perfect world where Sheik and Young Link are cut and somehow by the magic of game development we manage to get Impa and Skull Kid in their place. Is Zelda's representation in Smash in terms of playable characters leaving something to be desired? Sure. I think that three Links is arguably excessive and while I love EiH, I know plenty would prefer the Links to diversify (having Toon Link and Young Link lean more into their WW/MM source material) if we are to keep all three around. I know plenty of people bemoan how the representation is three links, two Zeldas, and Ganon. But there is probably a reason as to why we have not seen a Zelda newcomer since Toon Link, who was barely in Brawl: they just do not have many recurring characters to put in. Impa flip flops between bodyguard and elderly sage frequently, Tingle is so reviled in the West he was effectively kicked out of the series, and Skull Kid is more or less a Majora's Mask character given his bit parts at best in every other Zelda game. Would I prefer if one time Zelda characters got a nod? Sure, but it has not happened outside of Sheik, who has the benefit of being Zelda and timing. Stuff like Midna or Skull Kid would be great to implement, but Smash has been apprehensive to touch singular Zelda games outside of stages (which for the record are fantastically represented in Smash).

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Zelda's representation, while undeniably flawed, has bigger issues than Sheik by a country mile. Ganon still needs help with his decloning, although Ultimate was a step in the right direction. The Links should be diversified as well. Sheik is far from the problem. Unless you are literally hoping the roster is this perfect chronology of Nintendo history, Sheik is not the issue. Even if that was your desire, I think being a playable character in Smash for over twenty years erases any nitpicks about "history" or "representation" you could find with Sheik. I'll also stress cutting Sheik has always been a fringe at best point of view even on Smashboards. Most people like Sheik or at worst do not have the negative feelings you do. I highly doubt that they would ever cut a character who is a popular unique veteran who has been in for 20 years at this point and is from a series that already is underrepresented.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Given that there will be controversy either way, at this point I think I'd almost prefer a Smash reboot with the next roster. It would be disappointing to not get Dixie, BWD, or Impa in this current evolution of SSB sure, but it feels like so many various IP's could benefit from being rebuilt from the ground up that just doing Smash 2.0 might be the most practical option. LoZ alone has so many fundamental issues with its style of representation that sidestepping the notion of removals vs additions and having just brand new versions Zelda, Link, Ganon, etc just feels like the most ideal way of cutting that particular Gordian Knot. Speaking personally, I'd be disappointed at not getting Dixie in the next edition, yet if we got redone versions of DK and Diddy that maybe did incorporate elements from the games more organically, that'd go a long way of making me feel a bit better about her absence.

I guess part of me just thinks that a Switch successor that was backwards compatible with Ultimate while eventually had its own Smash title might be the only way of keeping the series momentum going while also finally moving forward.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I can understand that argument but I still feel it is far better than giving her several attacks from Diddy that she’s never used just because she theoretically could because she’s a monkey. Basically, I’d much rather take a faithful DKC set than a generic monkey set. I love Dixie as a character but I feel there is plenty of room in her moveset to give her all of her unique attacks and represent the series as a whole in one set.

Bruh, even Diddy hasn't used most of his attacks in Smash in canon, the only characters who do are characters like Sora and the Fighting game reps because they have so many materials already suited to throwing down. All of the DK characters are primates who jump, roll, and throw stuff in their actual canon, they don't have enough to build an entire moveset around, I don't understand where you're getting this idea that they have all this source material that gives cause for her to be unique, it sounds to me like you just don't like echoes because they aren't unique.

There is no reason they should go out and give her different attack animations with standard, aerials, and grabs, because she is LITERALLY the same size and build as Diddy. Yes, with characters with more defined personalities you can better express them with different animations, but nobody's flocking to DK because of the rich character growth - they're monkeys, they're based on an animal that throws **** in real life, and yes, she absolutely could have moves involving her hair, but if she's an echo, a different up special, grab animation, and dash attack are more than enough to represent that because that is ALL SHE DOES WITH IT IN CANON. Be happy she even has source material to work with that could work in a fighter, because the Star Fox crew and Captain Falcon sure didn't when they got added.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Again, I do not understand this fundamental clinging to a very literal notion of how Dixie must play.

To me a Smash Fighter can be representative of the series is a lot of ways, attacks especially. A side B where Dixie rides a charging Rambi across the stage is no more out there than a spring appearing under Sonic for an Up B. Neither one is something the character can spontaneous cue in their own games, but both are big elements from their particular series. Yoshi needs to collect actual eggs or swallow enemies to create them in his own games, but there's very little objection to him spontaneously being able to throw them in Smash, and a Dixie that could spur barrels to appear to throw at enemies would fit right along those same lines.

This is what I mean about Dixie having the unfortunate timing of coming in an era of ultra accuracy expectation with Smash fighters; the spirit of a game appearing with the character feels superseded by the need to have them be exactly as they are in their home games with little variance.

 

[Gengar84]

Bruh, even Diddy hasn't used most of his attacks in Smash in canon, the only characters who do are characters like Sora and the Fighting game reps because they have so many materials already suited to throwing down. All of the DK characters are primates who jump, roll, and throw stuff in their actual canon, they don't have enough to build an entire moveset around, I don't understand where you're getting this idea that they have all this source material that gives cause for her to be unique, it sounds to me like you just don't like echoes because they aren't unique.

There is no reason they should go out and give her different attack animations with standard, aerials, and grabs, because she is LITERALLY the same size and build as Diddy. Yes, with characters with more defined personalities you can better express them with different animations, but nobody's flocking to DK because of the rich character growth - they're monkeys, they're based on an animal that throws **** in real life, and yes, she absolutely could have moves involving her hair, but if she's an echo, a different up special, grab animation, and dash attack are more than enough to represent that because that is ALL SHE DOES WITH IT IN CANON. Be happy she even has source material to work with that could work in a fighter, because the Star Fox crew and Captain Falcon sure didn't when they got added.

I feel like this is pointless because it seems like we’re both set on our opinions. To me, a moveset is a lot more than just having a build. I’m not the biggest fan of Diddy’s moveset either. The biggest reason I’m against a Dixie echo is because I just want a character that represents what makes the DKC series stand out from every other platformer. To me, the main two things that make the series stand out are double team moves and the animal buddies. I don’t know why you keep insisting that the two are exactly the same in game. The way Dixie moves and grabs is completely different than Diddy. For example, Dixie grabs objects with her hair and holds them above her head, which protects her from above, while Diddy grabs with his arms out front, protecting him from frontal attacks. Every other attack animation is also completely different.

I don’t have any problems with echos as a whole. Every echo currently in Smash is totally fine with me even if I think many would have had more potential as original characters. Like I said before, echos are great for characters that wouldn’t have much of a chance otherwise or lack anything interesting to make them stand out.

Either way, this is just how I personally feel and I don’t know why you’re getting so upset about it. Let’s just agree to disagree and drop the subject.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I feel like this is pointless because it seems like we’re both set on our opinions. To me, a moveset is a lot more than just having a build. I’m not the biggest fan of Diddy’s moveset either. The biggest reason I’m against a Dixie echo is because I just want a character that represents what makes the DKC series stand out from every other platformer. To me, the main two things that make the series stand out are double team moves and the animal buddies. I don’t know why you keep insisting that the two are exactly the same in game. The way Dixie moves and grabs is completely different than Diddy. For example, Dixie grabs objects with her hair and holds them above her head, which protects her from above, while Diddy grabs with his arms out front, protecting him from frontal attacks. Every other attack animation is also completely different.

I don’t have any problems with echos as a whole. Every echo currently in Smash is totally fine with me even if I think many would have had more potential as original characters. Like I said before, echos are great for characters that wouldn’t have much of a chance otherwise or lack anything interesting to make them stand out.

Either way, this is just how I personally feel and I don’t know why you’re getting so upset about it. Let’s just agree to disagree and drop the subject.

You're missing the entire point of what I'm saying. Just because they have different animations, which I'm not denying - nor did I ever say they are the same in game, just that they have the same core design as monkeys - does not mean they would not function as clones in Smash considering that they are the same species. You're never going to get an animal buddy moveset or a double team moveset because Ice Climbers already exist and we know for a fact they are difficult to implement; so would you rather have her in as the most likely way she could get in or not at all?

 

[silenthunder]

Khameleon as a Shiek Clone?

Just make her stand in her Eagle Claw stance

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Keep in mind the "tag team" moveset planned for Dixie Kong did not work out. If it's with another Kong besides Diddy, maybe it can happen, but it won't happen with Diddy. He's already finished as a character design. It's not impossible she gets this, but pretty unlikely. Especially after IC's gave so much trouble. Something like an animal summon moveset is still possible, though.

An echo is also possible. We just have no clue what Sakurai wants out of her beyond the tag team concept, so her entire world is open for moveset designs. Echo, clone, semi-clone. They all are plausible. She shares the same build as Diddy, so would use him as a base either way, even if she shares few moves in common(though it doesn't help Diddy is mostly made up for Smash, meaning it's not like Dixie would've been that similar to her DKC self beyond a few hair abilities at best during Brawl). Who knows what'll happen.

 

[Gengar84]

You're missing the entire point of what I'm saying. Just because they have different animations, which I'm not denying - nor did I ever say they are the same in game, just that they have the same core design as monkeys - does not mean they would not function as clones in Smash considering that they are the same species. You're never going to get an animal buddy moveset or a double team moveset because Ice Climbers already exist and we know for a fact they are difficult to implement; so would you rather have her in as the most likely way she could get in or not at all?

The Kongs had mechanical differences in their attacks beyond purely visual though. I already described how their grabs function differently but there are many other mechanical differences between the two.

The way the tag team mechanic works in DKC is also completely different than the Ice Climbers. In DKC, only one Kong at a time can actually interact with anything and the other just follows along in the background. They would essentially work as a transform character that had an attack that let you pick up and throw the other Kong. The idea here would be Dixie and Kiddy since Diddy is already an established Smash character and it’s a bit late for that.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

The Kongs had mechanical differences in their attacks beyond purely visual though. I already described how their grabs function differently but there are many other mechanical differences between the two.

The way the tag team mechanic works in DKC is also completely different than the Ice Climbers. In DKC, only one Kong at a time can actually interact with anything and the other just follows along in the background. They would essentially work as a transform character that had an attack that let you pick up and throw the other Kong. The idea here would be Dixie and Kiddy since Diddy is already an established Smash character and it’s a bit late for that.

Well you can forget that working. There's a reason Rex got left in the dust.

And yes, we've been over the mechanical differences and yet you still miss the goddamn point of what I'm saying. 100% they could easily use her cargo throw, hair, and even a spinning hair dash attack but there is more to a Smash kit than just those things and they would 100% recycle the rest of her standard kit from Diddy because there is not further source material to work from, do you not get that Smash Bros. attacks 9 times out of 10 have to be made up

 

[HyperSomari64]

Last night i dreamt Ultimate got a new update with a new batch of spirits featuring WildBrain's OCs from their old game-to-animation adaptions, including many one-off characters from Super Mario Bros. Super Show!, the salesman from Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, Doctor Wily's Great Nephew from Mega Man: Fully Charged and even Polly Roger (the Donkey Kong show is owned by Corus but who cares?) At least the Freedom Fighters weren't there.

 

[SPEN18]

The alternative to Sheik is not getting Impa or some other Zelda newcomer. It is just not having Sheik.

While the first sentence there may or may not be true depending on the resource calculus in a hypothetical next game, the second is undeniably false. In my opinion your arguments are detrimentally fixated on this idea that nothing good can come from cuts. Everything that is cut or reprioritized or whatever allows something else to be raised in priority/opportunity. They have a fixed budget and time, and they do what they can with it.

Believing vets are easy to make, or at least vastly easier than newcomers, is essentially believing that Ultimate was easy to make. And Ultimate is confirmed to have been very difficult to make, even with the advantages of porting a vast amount of content with much less effort than is typical.

If anything, cutting Sheik would only make the Zelda representation worse. Zelda already has surprisingly few characters, and half of them are Link. I think one of Young Link or Toon Link is a very reasonable cut, with the latter being far more likely to stick around imo. So the response of people who complain about how Zelda is represented is...to cut one of their few unique characters because people still think that addition equals subtraction. This is just another case of letting perfect be the enemy of good. Sure, you can dream of that perfect world where Sheik and Young Link are cut and somehow by the magic of game development we manage to get Impa and Skull Kid in their place. Is Zelda's representation in Smash in terms of playable characters leaving something to be desired? Sure. I think that three Links is arguably excessive and while I love EiH, I know plenty would prefer the Links to diversify (having Toon Link and Young Link lean more into their WW/MM source material) if we are to keep all three around. I know plenty of people bemoan how the representation is three links, two Zeldas, and Ganon. But there is probably a reason as to why we have not seen a Zelda newcomer since Toon Link, who was barely in Brawl: they just do not have many recurring characters to put in. Impa flip flops between bodyguard and elderly sage frequently, Tingle is so reviled in the West he was effectively kicked out of the series, and Skull Kid is more or less a Majora's Mask character given his bit parts at best in every other Zelda game. Would I prefer if one time Zelda characters got a nod? Sure, but it has not happened outside of Sheik, who has the benefit of being Zelda and timing. Stuff like Midna or Skull Kid would be great to implement, but Smash has been apprehensive to touch singular Zelda games outside of stages (which for the record are fantastically represented in Smash).

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Zelda's representation, while undeniably flawed, has bigger issues than Sheik by a country mile. Ganon still needs help with his decloning, although Ultimate was a step in the right direction. The Links should be diversified as well. Sheik is far from the problem. Unless you are literally hoping the roster is this perfect chronology of Nintendo history, Sheik is not the issue. Even if that was your desire, I think being a playable character in Smash for over twenty years erases any nitpicks about "history" or "representation" you could find with Sheik. I'll also stress cutting Sheik has always been a fringe at best point of view even on Smashboards. Most people like Sheik or at worst do not have the negative feelings you do. I highly doubt that they would ever cut a character who is a popular unique veteran who has been in for 20 years at this point and is from a series that already is underrepresented.

Idk, in my opinion basically everything about the Zelda representation is seriously flawed outside of, like, Link and Zelda. It is very far from "perfect vs. good." Sakurai's handling of this series has been an absolute dumpster fire, and if we have to blow most of it up, Sheik and all, then let's do it. Here, "there are other issues" is not an excuse to say "let's not deal with this particular issue."

 

[Delzethin]

Not too late for echo fighter talk, am I?

Mid brain: Meowscarada as a newcomer.

Galaxy brain: Meowscarada as a newcomer...with Delphox as an echo.

Crazy thing is it's not even that outlandish. Both have magical motifs (albeit in different ways), both have sweeper statlines, and they even have the exact same average height! And there's a surprising amount of nods to Kalos in Scarlet & Violet, including...

Spoiler: Datamine Spoilers

The Kalos starters having full data in the base game already, implying they'll be a key part of the DLC somehow.

It'd take more effort than several of Ultimate's echoes since it'd require swapping plant motifs for fire ones (along with any other changes, like Delphox swinging a wand in place of some physical attacks while keeping the animations mostly the same), but as a Chrom-style deal, it could legit work!