Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Ivander]

Not too late for echo fighter talk, am I?

Mid brain: Meowscarada as a newcomer.

Galaxy brain: Meowscarada as a newcomer...with Delphox as an echo.

Crazy thing is it's not even that outlandish. Both have magical motifs (albeit in different ways), both have sweeper statlines, and they even have the exact same average height! And there's a surprising amount of nods to Kalos in Scarlet & Violet, including...

Spoiler: Datamine Spoilers

The Kalos starters having full data in the base game already, implying they'll be a key part of the DLC somehow.

It'd take more effort than several of Ultimate's echoes since it'd require swapping plant motifs for fire ones (along with any other changes, like Delphox swinging a wand in place of some physical attacks while keeping the animations mostly the same), but as a Chrom-style deal, it could legit work!

Hey, I am honestly not against Delphox and would certainly be open to some popularity underdogs, but at the same time, I'd like to see some love for some different Gen starters than just some of the same Gens over again. I'm still open to that Legends Arceus Trainer deal that has Decidueye, but also Samurott and Typlosion.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Echoes aren't simply the same height. They're the same bodyshape. You want the same proportions(with at most, a few pixel differences). Height only counts for skeletons at best, and those aren't the same as the models being nearly identical either.

Delphox is a neat choice, since we're on the subject.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Since we were talking about the Kongs earlier, I think it's time to address a glaring issue:

With Kiddy and Swanky Kong’s appearances in the #SuperMarioBrosMovie, Chunky is now the sole remaining Rare-era Kong to have never gotten a redesign or new model, his sole appearance being a Spirit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

Even Wrinkly got one, and she died in 1999. pic.twitter.com/rHYZ8FI930

— DK Vine (@dkvine) December 6, 2022

Chunky Kong has been neglected for too long, and it's time to change that!

#ChunkyKongForSmash

 

[HyperSomari64]

Since we were talking about the Kongs earlier, I think it's time to address a glaring issue:

With Kiddy and Swanky Kong’s appearances in the #SuperMarioBrosMovie, Chunky is now the sole remaining Rare-era Kong to have never gotten a redesign or new model, his sole appearance being a Spirit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

Even Wrinkly got one, and she died in 1999. pic.twitter.com/rHYZ8FI930

— DK Vine (@dkvine) December 6, 2022

Chunky Kong has been neglected for too long, and it's time to change that!

#ChunkyKongForSmash

Wait :'till Nintendo give him teeth because "Rare = No Teeth | Nintendo = Teeth".

 

[Ivander]

Since we were talking about the Kongs earlier, I think it's time to address a glaring issue:

With Kiddy and Swanky Kong’s appearances in the #SuperMarioBrosMovie, Chunky is now the sole remaining Rare-era Kong to have never gotten a redesign or new model, his sole appearance being a Spirit in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.

Even Wrinkly got one, and she died in 1999. pic.twitter.com/rHYZ8FI930

— DK Vine (@dkvine) December 6, 2022

Chunky Kong has been neglected for too long, and it's time to change that!

#ChunkyKongForSmash

Truly the last member of the DK Crew and when he's here for us, we'll say, "Finally."

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Should Doc have been included?

Probably not.

But he's so much fun to play that its impossible for me to dislike him.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Cuts will happen regardless

Disagree.

This is why to me Black Knight should not be an echo of Ike.

Then he shouldn't get in at all.

 

[Oracle Link]

I mean lets do something Intersting can we atleast all agree that Kirby and Zelda should get atleast 1 New Character/ Echo each?

 

[Mamboo07]

I mean lets do something Intersting can we atleast all agree that Kirby and Zelda should get atleast 1 New Character/ Echo each?

My pick for Dedede's Echo Fighter would be D-Mind from Kirby Clash:

The differences would be:

• D-Mind uses the axe
• D-Mind's Inhale has him use the belly mouth
• Side Special would be using shadowy balls instead of Gordos or a spin attack
• He uses attacks from the Masked and Shadow Dedede boss fights from Triple Deluxe and Super Star Ultra

 

[fogbadge]

delphox looks daft

 

[Gengar84]

Given that there will be controversy either way, at this point I think I'd almost prefer a Smash reboot with the next roster. It would be disappointing to not get Dixie, BWD, or Impa in this current evolution of SSB sure, but it feels like so many various IP's could benefit from being rebuilt from the ground up that just doing Smash 2.0 might be the most practical option. LoZ alone has so many fundamental issues with its style of representation that sidestepping the notion of removals vs additions and having just brand new versions Zelda, Link, Ganon, etc just feels like the most ideal way of cutting that particular Gordian Knot. Speaking personally, I'd be disappointed at not getting Dixie in the next edition, yet if we got redone versions of DK and Diddy that maybe did incorporate elements from the games more organically, that'd go a long way of making me feel a bit better about her absence.

I guess part of me just thinks that a Switch successor that was backwards compatible with Ultimate while eventually had its own Smash title might be the only way of keeping the series momentum going while also finally moving forward.

The main differences between the two Kongs are how their grab works and their attributes. Dixie holds objects above her head while Diddy holds them in front. Diddy is also faster than Dixie while Dixie has more aerial control due to her float. The attacks themselves work mostly the same but I can’t remember whether Dixie can do Diddy’s trick of dash attacking off the side of a platform and then jumping for increased distance and momentum. It is an SNES platformer so there could only be so many mechanical differences. A game like Smash could easily make them function vastly differently. Even if it was just an animation difference back then, the two moves would at minimum have different hit boxes in Smash. Besides, Dixie never used anything like a jet pack like Diddy does in 64 or Smash.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Again, I do not understand this fundamental clinging to a very literal notion of how Dixie must play.

To me a Smash Fighter can be representative of the series is a lot of ways, attacks especially. A side B where Dixie rides a charging Rambi across the stage is no more out there than a spring appearing under Sonic for an Up B. Neither one is something the character can spontaneous cue in their own games, but both are big elements from their particular series. Yoshi needs to collect actual eggs or swallow enemies to create them in his own games, but there's very little objection to him spontaneously being able to throw them in Smash, and a Dixie that could spur barrels to appear to throw at enemies would fit right along those same lines.

This is what I mean about Dixie having the unfortunate timing of coming in an era of ultra accuracy expectation with Smash fighters; the spirit of a game appearing with the character feels superseded by the need to have them be exactly as they are in their home games with little variance.

There‘s a difference between not adhering to ultra accuracy like a fighting game character and devising a cannon fodder set comprised of elements a character is barely associated with aside from appearing in the same series while jumping high and low that lending a majority of moves from a character from the same series with the same body type and the same acrobatic tendencies is unacceptable

The Kongs had mechanical differences in their attacks beyond purely visual though. I already described how their grabs function differently but there are many other mechanical differences between the two.

And this is where to me the discussion stings, because Echoes all gave up their own moveset potential in order to get in, sometimes on a much grander scale than a little stats tick here and a different grab animation there. Lucina canonically fights like her father, not her grandgrandgrandgrandfather. Dark Pit also has a signature weapon he does not use outside of his Final Smash and render. Daisy is not associated with Toads whatsoever, did not appear in Super Mario Bros. 2 to pluck Turnips, does not share Peach’s float ability, is usually in a different stat class than Peach in spin-offs and her signature flower power is relegated to the measliest of animation changes. Dark Samus is made of a substance that doesn’t feature in her set at all. Even Richter, whose moves are implemented in the base Belmont set, does not use Holy Water the way it works in his game.

To jump high and low that Dixie could never in the whole wide world be an Echo because of animation differences and stat tweaks flies past the characters that have already been made into Echo Fighters, especially when there is no friction in abilities at all in any of Diddy’s moves and the reason why it “couldn’t“ work is because Dixie is supposed to have potential. She does, but she can join the club with the rest in that regard.

Of course, this is not about potential or preference. Obviously a unique Dixie could carry her weight and a set that shows what the series is known for is always preferable. I’m not arguing Dixie should be an Echo or would be an Echo. Just that she could.

 

[Gengar84]

There‘s a difference between not adhering to ultra accuracy like a fighting game character and devising a cannon fodder set comprised of elements a character is barely associated with aside from appearing in the same series while jumping high and low that lending a majority of moves from a character from the same series with the same body type and the same acrobatic tendencies is unacceptable




And this is where to me the discussion stings, because Echoes all gave up their own moveset potential in order to get in, sometimes on a much grander scale than a little stats tick here and a different grab animation there. Lucina canonically fights like her father, not her grandgrandgrandgrandfather. Dark Pit also has a signature weapon he does not use outside of his Final Smash and render. Daisy is not associated with Toads whatsoever, did not appear in Super Mario Bros. 2 to pluck Turnips, does not share Peach’s float ability, is usually in a different stat class than Peach in spin-offs and her signature flower power is relegated to the measliest of animation changes. Dark Samus is made of a substance that doesn’t feature in her set at all. Even Richter, whose moves are implemented in the base Belmont set, does not use Holy Water the way it works in his game.

To jump high and low that Dixie could never in the whole wide world be an Echo because of animation differences and stat tweaks flies past the characters that have already been made into Echo Fighters, especially when there is no friction in abilities at all in any of Diddy’s moves and the reason why it “couldn’t“ work is because Dixie is supposed to have potential. She does, but she can join the club with the rest in that regard.

Of course, this is not about potential or preference. Obviously a unique Dixie could carry her weight and a set that shows what the series is known for is always preferable. I’m not arguing Dixie should be an Echo or would be an Echo. Just that she could.

I agree that Dixie could theoretically be an echo but at that point, I think almost anyone could be an echo if Sakurai wanted them to. Ganondorf was a clone of Falcon after all. I wasn’t trying to argue that it was impossible to make her an echo, just that I don’t think they should. Making her an echo would cause her to lose everything that makes her stand out from the other Kongs in my opinion. Nothing is really stopping them from just making Dixie a 1-1 echo of Diddy though. While she never used a jet pack, it doesn’t mean she never could. I think they removed Diddy’s tail attacks recently too. She could even keep Diddy’s cartwheel instead of her hair twirl. I just feel like it would strip Dixie of what made her fun to play in DKC

Again though, even if it was just an animation difference back then, it couldn’t be in Smash since the two dash attacks would at minimum need different hurtboxes as well now. The animation is completely different and I don’t see how they could use Diddy’s cartwheel hurtbox for Dixie’s standing spin. Mario, Peach, and Toad played mostly the same in SMB2 and 3D World but I think it would have been silly to make Peach or Toad a Mario clone.

In conclusion, I definitely don’t think it’s impossible to make Dixie an echo of Diddy, but I do think it’s impossible to do so without losing everything that made her fun to play in DKC. I also feel like it would be a missed opportunity to represent some of the fun and unique mechanics of the series. A unique Dixie is basically our last chance to ever see that without a hard reboot of the series.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I agree that Dixie could theoretically be an echo but at that point, I think almost anyone could be an echo if Sakurai wanted them to. Ganondorf was a clone of Falcon after all. I wasn’t trying to argue that it was impossible to make her an echo, just that I don’t think they should. Making her an echo would cause her to lose everything that makes her stand out from the other Kongs in my opinion. Nothing is really stopping them from just making Dixie a 1-1 echo of Diddy though. While she never used a jet pack, it doesn’t mean she never could. I think they removed Diddy’s tail attacks recently too. She could even keep Diddy’s cartwheel instead of her hair twirl. I just feel like it would strip Dixie of what made her fun to play in DKC

Again though, even if it was just an animation difference back then, it couldn’t be in Smash since the two dash attacks would at minimum need different hurtboxes as well now. The animation is completely different and I don’t see how they could use Diddy’s cartwheel hurtbox for Dixie’s standing spin. Mario, Peach, and Toad played mostly the same in SMB2 and 3D World but I think it would have been silly to make Peach or Toad a Mario clone.

In conclusion, I definitely don’t think it’s impossible to make Dixie an echo of Diddy, but I do think it’s impossible to do so without losing everything that made her fun to play in DKC. I also feel like it would be a missed opportunity to represent some of the fun and unique mechanics of the series. A unique Dixie is basically our last chance to ever see that without a hard reboot of the series.

Seems like we basically agreed after all and I’m definitely with you that a unique Dixie would be the boost the series needs (although I think a barrel-based Cranky could also be the ultimate love letter to the series, so that Dixie can focus more on derring-do platform and acrobatic tricks)

 

[Gengar84]

Seems like we basically agreed after all and I’m definitely with you that a unique Dixie would be the boost the series needs (although I think a barrel-based Cranky could also be the ultimate love letter to the series, so that Dixie can focus more on derring-do platform and acrobatic tricks)

Yeah, I guess I’m not the best at articulating my thoughts sometimes. Sorry for the misunderstanding. In the end, these are just my opinions and people are free to have their own that differ from mine.

 

[Oracle Link]

My pick for Dedede's Echo Fighter would be D-Mind from Kirby Clash:
View attachment 364801
The differences would be:

• D-Mind uses the axe
• D-Mind's Inhale has him use the belly mouth
• Side Special would be using shadowy balls instead of Gordos or a spin attack
• He uses attacks from the Masked and Shadow Dedede boss fights from Triple Deluxe and Super Star Ultra

I thought about that too maybe ill even add him to the handy dandy Newcomer List!

 

[Garteam]

I've never been huge on the whole "replace Sheik with Impa because Impa is more prominent than Sheik" idea. Impa only really follows the ninja archetype in two games, Ocarina of Time and Skyward Sword, and we're told rather than shown all of her accomplishments in the former (I'm not counting the Hyrule Warriors games since they seem to have basically no influence over how actual movesets are constructed thus far). Most of the time, she's an old woman with no combat abilities. That could be fun, but I don't know if Impa supporters here would be happy with that. I think it's better to just keep Sheik, who has been grandfathered into being a popular fighter already, even if she's pretty underpowered in Ultimate.

 

[fogbadge]

I've never been huge on the whole "replace Sheik with Impa because Impa is more prominent than Sheik" idea. Impa only really follows the ninja archetype in two games, Ocarina of Time and Skyward Sword, and we're told rather than shown all of her accomplishments in the former (I'm not counting the Hyrule Warriors games since they seem to have basically no influence over how actual movesets are constructed thus far). Most of the time, she's an old woman with no combat abilities. That could be fun, but I don't know if Impa supporters here would be happy with that. I think it's better to just keep Sheik, who has been grandfathered into being a popular fighter already, even if she's pretty underpowered in Ultimate.

since when has having no combat been a problem?

 

[Gengar84]

I've never been huge on the whole "replace Sheik with Impa because Impa is more prominent than Sheik" idea. Impa only really follows the ninja archetype in two games, Ocarina of Time and Skyward Sword, and we're told rather than shown all of her accomplishments in the former (I'm not counting the Hyrule Warriors games since they seem to have basically no influence over how actual movesets are constructed thus far). Most of the time, she's an old woman with no combat abilities. That could be fun, but I don't know if Impa supporters here would be happy with that. I think it's better to just keep Sheik, who has been grandfathered into being a popular fighter already, even if she's pretty underpowered in Ultimate.

I just want Hyrule Warriors Impa even if there’s not a great chance of getting that version of her. I never cared that much about Impa before or since but I do love her in that game. I’m not holding my breath in seeing that incarnation of the character in Smash though. I’ll even gladly take her as a Sheik echo if she at least kept that design (even though an original moveset would be better).

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've never been huge on the whole "replace Sheik with Impa because Impa is more prominent than Sheik" idea. Impa only really follows the ninja archetype in two games, Ocarina of Time and Skyward Sword

And the rest of the time she follows the "old lady that does nothing" archetype, which doesn't make for much of a character.

I'm not counting the Hyrule Warriors games since they seem to have basically no influence over how actual movesets are constructed thus far

Well that's dumb. Because those are by far her best, most popular, and only playable, appearances.

 

[fogbadge]

Well that's dumb. Because those are by far her best, most popular, and only playable, appearances.

disclaimer: not the only one but you could forgiven for not knowing the other

 

[Mamboo07]

with no combat abilities.

Villager would like a word with you

 

[HyperSomari64]

Villager would like a word with you

Duck Hunt Duo and R.O.B. be like:

 

[SPEN18]

since when has having no combat been a problem?

It used to be considered a problem by Sakurai, as evidenced by the comments on Villager and Nintendog in Brawl.

But it's not an impediment anymore, no.

 

[fogbadge]

It used to be considered a problem by Sakurai, as evidenced by the comments on Villager and Nintendog in Brawl.

But it's not an impediment anymore, no.

Well it’s reassuring to see I’m not the only one to take rhetorical questions seriously

 

[Lenidem]

And the rest of the time she follows the "old lady that does nothing" archetype, which doesn't make for much of a character.

Well that's dumb. Because those are by far her best, most popular, and only playable, appearances.

Isn't she also playable in Samba de Amigos... I mean, Cadence of Hyrule?

 

[DarthEnderX]

disclaimer: not the only one but you could forgiven for not knowing the other

Cadence of Hyrule?

 

[fogbadge]

Cadence of Hyrule?

yep, she was quite a late addition

 

[Garteam]

since when has having no combat been a problem?

Villager would like a word with you

No combat is the wrong phrase. No anything is probably better. Like, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, and the like can't fight, but they still move and perform some type of action. Old Impa literally stands/sits in a singular spot and exposites dialogue, with the exception of a Link Between Worlds, where she helps summon the Triforce.

Either way, I don't think Zelda's first character in 20+ years should be a gag character that has just about nothing to base a moveset on, especially when there are versions of that same character that are warriors and capable of combat. It'd be like if Fire Emblem got no new characters in the next three Smash games, then in Smash 9 they added Anna, but based her on her appearance in Thracia 776.

Well that's dumb. Because those are by far her best, most popular, and only playable, appearances.

Hyrule Warriors Impa would be cool, but I'm not holding my breath when all that OG Hyrule Warriors got was a Sheik alt and all that Age of Calamity got was a promotional spirit event.

I also think Koei Tecmo's first character should be one they actually created, like Ryu Hayabusa or Kasumi, rather than their take on an existing character.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Unpopular Opinion: Wise, Elderly Impa (i also include the fat one from the Oracle games) > Young, Athletic Impa (both OoT, Skyward Sword and HW 1+2)

 

[dream1ng]

I'd take Impa replacing Sheik simply because Impa is a prominent, recurring, popular character within the Zelda series and Sheik, just as Sheik, isn't. Yeah using Sheik's moveset isn't the best Impa can do, but that's the case for most clones. Sometimes the option is clone or nothing. I'd take an original Impa over a derivative Impa, but I'd take a derivative Impa over nothing. And nothing continues to be a very plausible outcome.

And yes, Impa is usually a less-than-feasible older lady, but that's not the version with popularity or the version we'd get, clone or original. Ridley's usually real big. We get the feasible version, which here, is the ninja-esque one.

And if her abilities are only alluded to and not shown... then, from a practical perspective, you're losing less by making her a clone. Imagine she was always demonstrating original stuff and then she was just stripped of all of it and made derivative. That'd be a lot worse.

I don't think any of this will happen, but between Impa and Sheik I choose Impa. Sheik is a one-off disguise of an existing character who was the benefactor of timing and fitting a gimmick. Impa is the most recurring character who isn't already in the game, who has and will continue to be prominent across titles.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly I think I feel about Dixie and Impa in the same way; both could be feasible echo/clones of the likes of Diddy and Sheik, but there's so much potential the two have from their games that reducing both to just that would feel like a waste even if if it would be cool to have them officially included.

 

[Gengar84]

My biggest issue with echoes is that once a character gets in as a clone, it basically means they will never get their own unique moveset. Just look at Ganondorf, for example. He’s still got Captain Falcon DNA after all these years but now also borrows an attack from Ike and Cloud as well rather than being built from the ground up. In Melee, I could make a strong argument that Falcondorf was better than not getting him at all but if he had been added in a later game, rather than a last minute clone just because he fit Falcon’s frame, he could have had a much more interesting moveset. He’s still fun as is and I main him because I like the character but he still feels like a missed opportunity. Basically, the fact that clones tend to stay that way mean that it’s not always the case that they’re better than not getting them at all.

Echos are great for characters like Dark Pit, Dr. Mario, Dry Bowser and King D. Mind who are basically variants of the same character or the Fire Emblem characters that don’t have a ton to work with to make them unique but I feel that if a character is iconic enough and have the potential to be unique, they should probably not be clones.

 

[dream1ng]

Honestly I think I feel about Dixie and Impa in the same way; both could be feasible echo/clones of the likes of Diddy and Sheik, but there's so much potential the two have from their games that reducing both to just that would feel like a waste even if if it would be cool to have them officially included.

Sure but that's nothing new, people have been saying it since clones.

Those who raise the point that x could be a clone aren't saying they're better that way, or they couldn't be original. But sometimes some characters lend themselves to being a clone despite potential for uniqueness and may end up being that or nothing. It's not ideal but it's not unrealistic.

 

[SPEN18]

Two things:

(1) It's one thing if you don't want to credit Impa for her "old lady" appearances, but I don't see how those could possibly deflate her merit and/or chances. I don't think Sakurai/Nintendo would pause from adding a younger iteration of Impa as it would be clear even to the most casual of fans why they are representing that version of the character and not the "old lady" ones.

(2) And Gengar84 brings up a good point with Dorf. If Sakurai had shown more willingness to significantly alter existing movesets in subsequent Smash games, then more people would likely be on board with more clone-ish versions of characters like Impa or Dixie to start, with the understanding that those clone versions would not so firmly shut the door on getting more fleshed out later.

 

[dream1ng]

(2) And Gengar84 brings up a good point with Dorf. If Sakurai had shown more willingness to significantly alter existing movesets in subsequent Smash games, then more people would likely be on board with more clone-ish versions of characters like Impa or Dixie to start, with the understanding that those clone versions would not so firmly shut the door on getting more fleshed out later.

Easier to just introduce the echo brand and suddenly have people push for more clones.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Unpopular Opinion: Wise, Elderly Impa (i also include the fat one from the Oracle games) > Young, Athletic Impa (both OoT, Skyward Sword and HW 1+2)

Fat Impa is depicted as being fairly strong and muscular. She's not like the regular Elderly ones but more of a combination of strength but older. Basically she's a cross between both version's aspects to a degree.

That said, I prefer Oracle Impa to get in, as she's my favorite design. She's the only actual Elderly variant of Impa who is clearly battle capable in some way. She doesn't look like she's barely able to stand, after all.

-------------------

Something like Villager did have options, which is basing it upon items found in the games that they could wield in some way. Wii Fit Trainer had actual poses/athletic moves that were turned into battle-like attacks. Even said Oracle Impa isn't depicted with actual attacks, just clearly looks plausible that she could fight in some way. Something the other Elderly variants simply do not. So it's not a "lack of anything" either in every case. It's just not a popular design either way. Yes, it's true Villager was dismissed at first cause they wouldn't normally fight. However, mindsets change.

Really, for the most part, almost every character got in was based upon something from their own games. Captain Falcon is the only one that really has nothing featured from his own games, even though you can somewhat correspond one special and his general speed at best. He wasn't inspired by some features from his won game, but by Japanese superheroes(it does help his model may have been loosely based upon the original Dragon King model, or a few moves from there also inspired Samus?). Fox doesn't entirely count as he's been seen on foot, while holding an actual weapon, and in-game, uses a vehicle which shoots lasers. It's mostly made up either way, but his moves still has a game basis. R.O.B. uses some moves that are literally based upon the games he was part of, and the rest is pretty much "robot stuff".

Basically, yes, Captain Falcon had no moves whatsoever that were used in any way from his games. Every character otherwise did in some way. ...Well done or not. He's kind of the only case at all where the "has nothing" was a legitimate thing at all, and as I said right above, it might've been a very unique situation that allowed him to be workable. Besides just being a Samus clone, anyway. This isn't the norm either way, so if a character is getting in, it'll be based upon materials that they're remotely capable of in order to create a plausible moveset. They can be mostly made up too. But things like having the right build(model swaps), a design that looks battle capable enough(funny how both of these apply to Falcon, heh), having stuff in their game that can be retooled for a playstyle, or what's going to matter here for them to even dance in Sakurai's head at this point. Oracle Impa aside, the rest of the Elderly Ones don't actually have anything that is easy to work with. Since all they actually do is talk and barely move around. They're just meant for dialogue as an NPC in those games. The other Impas(SS, HW, OOT, AOC, etc.) outright fight or look capable of it. ...I'll note the Oracle one is weird cause it's just the drawn version of the character that is clearly battle plausible, not the sprite. So she's in a weird spot. But again, lol at popularity(Tingle has more, probably so in the West too where he isn't nearly as hated anymore as he used to be).

 

[SPEN18]

Easier to just introduce the echo brand and suddenly have people push for more clones.

Not just the number of them, but also the range of them in terms of importance/notoriety. Moreover, the degree to which people are willing to shoehorn existing movesets onto perfectly unique characters.

And it's so backwards. We should be moving farther from those sorts of developmental shortcuts that aided the team in filling out a roster when they had far fewer resources to do so.

 

[Troykv]

Someone mentioned it before I suppose? Making Vets is easier compared with making newcomers, but ISN'T easy, even if a lot of the pre-developing work is already done, there is still needed to rework the character into the new game, the character is unlikely to remain exactly the same gameplay-wise as it was in the previous game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I love Impa. I would love her inclusion in Smash.

But I don't expect Impa to get in as a unique newcomer or even a Sheik echo without another major starring role. She's ultimately a minor character with a lot of plot important appearances, but without a large amount of notable appearances. She's also not popular enough in the Smash community to circumvent that. If she can just get one more SS or HW style appearance, I think she can cross the threshold into a major franchise character. She's so close, but she just isn't a "mainstream" Zelda character like the existing Smash characters, Skull Kid or Midna are.

I also highly doubt that she'd replace anyone, especially someone as popular as Sheik. I really am a bit confused to see all the Sheik indifference. She's beloved in Zelda communities and other Smash circles. I don't expect her to leave unless the roster is gutted. Cuts usually aren't made lightly and aside from stuff that largely only hardcore Smash speculators care about, I see no reason to cut her.