Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Is it bad that I kinda want X more than Zero?

Yes. Zero is way more interesting than "slightly taller Mega Man".

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's very weird. I could understand some of the Sonic 3 music due to the Micheal Jackson involvement, but like, why are there not a whole lot of stage tracks from the other games? Considering the whole deal with licensing and whatnot, I always thought the vocal songs should be the more harder songs to get due to the singers and bands like Crash 40, yet we have alot of the vocal songs, but not a lot of stage tracks. Which I don't get exactly when there are alot of popular stage tracks, like Emerald Coast, Stardust Speedway, Casino Night, heck, where the frick' is Chemical Plant, easily one of the most popular Sonic stage tracks behind Green Hill Zone?

Lego Dimensions had similar issues getting Sonic tracks in, leading to the devs having to compose soundalikes.

Ultimately, I think the issue is that Japanese gamers aren't going to universally agree with us that Sonic is the face of Sega, due to his popularity mostly being a Western thing. Japan would rather treat Yakuza, Puyo Puyo etc. as Sega's iconic franchises than seeing Sonic as the only one.

 

[7NATOR]

Honest question.

Do you think Sonic IP is hard to work with? I'm starting to wonder if the reason the representation is seen as lacking is because there's more legal red tape than you're average third party franchise.

For example, the only Sonic remix in all of Smash is one made by a Sega employee and they have the rights to the remix and use it in things like Mario and Sonic.

As G Guynamednelson suggested, it's probably the Music side of things. This also isn't just related to Sonic, but it also relates to Bayonetta, and even Persona also.

Some of the Sonic Songs (Live and Learn being a prime example) don't have the Full Lyrics, Bayonetta doesn't have any of the Lyrical songs, and Persona does have some absences and I think one song without it's lyrics. Atlus seems easier to deal with

I never heard about the Lego Dimmensions scenario with the Music, would like to see where that came from. I think it Regarding the Music it might be somewhat tricky to get in the music perhaps due to Permission needed to be given from more people than just Sega of Japan, but also the America Branch, the Composers, and even the Singers and such.

While it might seem like Sega owns the Music outright, it might not actually be that simple. This is a thing that also plagues Kingdom Hearts Licensing. Disney owns the Rights technically, but they might also be under Obligation to have to consult Square and Nomura on what they do with the I.P

I think lack of Remixes is probably just Sega being picky about who does their Music Remixes, they might want control of that. I don't think the Lack of Remixes is due to Red tape. Toby Fox also owns the Remix of Meganolvania, not Nintendo, but I doubt it was hard to get access to the track

Otherwise I think It's not hard working with Sonic, otherwise Sonic wouldn't be in so Many Crossovers. Sega is Particular about how the characters are represented, but it doesn't seem bad enough or Expensive enough to not make it worth to License Sonic. Also Sonic wouldn't have so Many Spirits and Assists if it was hard with Licensing and such

I think the Issue with Sonic, at least when it Came to Ultimate, is that it was a Bad time to be a Sonic fan, since Sonic Boom kind of put the Franchise in a bad situation (even if the Cartoon was good), and that was the last game before the Ultimate Project Plan was finished. coupled with Sonic not being the most Popular in Japan and it probably was unsure to go for anything like a 2nd Character

Now that Sonic is getting Movies, Netflix Show, the Comics (which are doing pretty good in Japan), and the Games, while not the best it can be, is Definitely better than Sonic Boom and such, Sonic is in much better Position to get another Character and more content in General, especially since Sonic characters have had their highest period of Requests in Ultimate's Lifecycle

Confession time:

Spoiler

I think Mega Man is more likely than Sonic to get a second rep in the next Smash game.

I don't know about that, But I'm curious to know your reasons for your stance on it

 

[Wonder Smash]

Is it bad that I kinda want X more than Zero?

Nope. I too would rather have X than Zero.

 

[uptonogood]

Make Samus move, attack, and feel like Dread Samus instead of Super Samus.

This please. I actually drummed up my own movesets for a Samus redesign, one based on Dread and the other taking more inspiration from the series as a whole.
Dread Moveset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1RDlfGvpDMkV7JIoh5-MAsb92tkV4SQyYn3ouzTWlenY/edit?usp=sharing
General Moveset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17GkyxbVDqYrjBDo28Mqj38MeZtAqoCWaLE8Q7oBqvLY/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Yamat08]

It's very weird. I could understand some of the Sonic 3 music due to the Micheal Jackson involvement, but like, why are there not a whole lot of stage tracks from the other games?

Actually, since you bring up Micheal Jackson, I think there's a similar issue with the first two games. Weren't their soundtracks composed in collaboration with the band Dreams Come True?

 

[Shroob]

As G Guynamednelson suggested, it's probably the Music side of things. This also isn't just related to Sonic, but it also relates to Bayonetta, and even Persona also.

Some of the Sonic Songs (Live and Learn being a prime example) don't have the Full Lyrics, Bayonetta doesn't have any of the Lyrical songs, and Persona does have some absences and I think one song without it's lyrics. Atlus seems easier to deal with

I never heard about the Lego Dimmensions scenario with the Music, would like to see where that came from. I think it Regarding the Music it might be somewhat tricky to get in the music perhaps due to Permission needed to be given from more people than just Sega of Japan, but also the America Branch, the Composers, and even the Singers and such.

While it might seem like Sega owns the Music outright, it might not actually be that simple. This is a thing that also plagues Kingdom Hearts Licensing. Disney owns the Rights technically, but they might also be under Obligation to have to consult Square and Nomura on what they do with the I.P

I think lack of Remixes is probably just Sega being picky about who does their Music Remixes, they might want control of that. I don't think the Lack of Remixes is due to Red tape. Toby Fox also owns the Remix of Meganolvania, not Nintendo, but I doubt it was hard to get access to the track

Otherwise I think It's not hard working with Sonic, otherwise Sonic wouldn't be in so Many Crossovers. Sega is Particular about how the characters are represented, but it doesn't seem bad enough or Expensive enough to not make it worth to License Sonic. Also Sonic wouldn't have so Many Spirits and Assists if it was hard with Licensing and such

I think the Issue with Sonic, at least when it Came to Ultimate, is that it was a Bad time to be a Sonic fan, since Sonic Boom kind of put the Franchise in a bad situation (even if the Cartoon was good), and that was the last game before the Ultimate Project Plan was finished. coupled with Sonic not being the most Popular in Japan and it probably was unsure to go for anything like a 2nd Character

Now that Sonic is getting Movies, Netflix Show, the Comics (which are doing pretty good in Japan), and the Games, while not the best it can be, is Definitely better than Sonic Boom and such, Sonic is in much better Position to get another Character and more content in General, especially since Sonic characters have had their highest period of Requests in Ultimate's Lifecycle



I don't know about that, But I'm curious to know your reasons for your stance on it

Bayonetta's music and Persona's music is weird.


Bayo has her music, but no lyrics, which almost make me think there's some royalties involved with the singer, since they're in the game without her voice, so. And then of course you have Fly Me to the Moon and Moon River, which aren't video game songs to begin with and are old as hell crooner music.


As for Persona, afaik, Persona has its vocals just fine, it's just they didn't add the song from Joker's reveal trailer, which, while a shame, considering they were basically trying to include music from P3 and P4 as well, I get why.

 

[Chuderz]

I'm glad Sakurai has thought about expanding upon the concepts already within Smash. I actually thought Min Min was supposed to be able to do Smash attacks in the air based on the translation for the presentation but it was in regards to her having Smash attacks for all her Down-Special Arm switches which is obviously still cool but can't say I wasn't a little disappointed. I think aerial Smash attack are a great idea. If you'd said that before Sakurai stated he already considered doing it I'm willing to bet fans would have dogpiled on you saying it's supposedly "game-breaking" or to not mess with the formula that people know similar to the people arguing for Ganondorf to retain his copied moveset out a sense of familiarity for the people that play him and whatever.

 

[Gengar84]

Is it bad that I kinda want X more than Zero?

Not really. I would be happy with either X or Zero. I think I slightly prefer Zero partially to his voice actor but they are both great choices.

 

[Geno Boost]

This please. I actually drummed up my own movesets for a Samus redesign, one based on Dread and the other taking more inspiration from the series as a whole.
Dread Moveset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1RDlfGvpDMkV7JIoh5-MAsb92tkV4SQyYn3ouzTWlenY/edit?usp=sharing
General Moveset: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17GkyxbVDqYrjBDo28Mqj38MeZtAqoCWaLE8Q7oBqvLY/edit?usp=sharing

i think you forgot something very important Samus should be able to move as a morph ball when you click down

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Honestly the more I learn about various Japanese developers having issues bringing back old music, the more I realize that Nintendo rarely having that problem makes them the exception, not the rule.

 

[Dinoman96]

Imagine if Banjo was in the exact same state he was in prior to his Smash reveal, except MS never bought him. He's still fan demanded, still unrepresented in the game etc. Would that mean he's disqualified from being DLC?

If Rare never left Nintendo, or at the very least the rights to Banjo remained in Nintendo's hands after the buyout, then I'm very certain he would of already been playable in Smash long before Ultimate anyways. Would of been a Brawl newcomer, most likely. I guess the worse case scenario is that he would of been a base game Ultimate newcomer and not DLC, like fellow Rare character K. Rool.

So personally I think that's a moot point.

 

[Gengar84]

If Rare never left Nintendo, or at the very least the rights to Banjo remained in Nintendo's hands after the buyout, then I'm very certain he would of already been playable in Smash long before Ultimate anyways. Would of been a Brawl newcomer, most likely. I guess the worse case scenario is that he would of been a base game Ultimate newcomer and not DLC, like fellow Rare character K. Rool.

So personally I think that's a moot point.

Not only that but I’m pretty confident we’d already have the Battletoads, Fulgore, Joanna Dark, and Conker if Rare was still with Nintendo. Rare was a huge part of Nintendo’s history and I feel they would have gotten all their classic IP represented. I still have some hope that we’ll see at least one of these characters in the next Smash since Rare is a bit more relevant than it has been in the past thanks to Sea of Thieves and reboots of their classic franchises, not to mention Banjo Kazooie coming to Switch online.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

A celebration of gaming in general, and not just Nintendo, should not let you pit the Ice Climbers vs. Dark Samus vs. Piranha Plant vs. a Mii Gunner dressed as Ray Mk. III while the Arcade Bunny pops out of an assist trophy and they're fighting on Hanenbow. That's what I mean when I say the game dives too deep into Nintendo history to celebrate all of gaming.

It's a Nintendo game... it should be dominated by Nintendo stuff - why would they make a game and shaft their own properties and history? I don't buy and play smash for the hopes of weird 3rd party dlc additions. I want to play as Link and as Olimar and as Little Mac and it turns out as Incineroar. Smash is a celebration of Nintendo and 3rd party gaming is invited to join the fun.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Next time: Fulgore as an Assist Trophy.

SNES Killer Instinct is second best selling Rare IP game (not counting DKC and Goldeneye), behind the first Banjo-Kazooie. It was popular at SNES/early N64 days as they weren’t getting the 3D fighting games (Virtua Fighter, Tekken, Dead or Alive..) as other consoles.

 

[Gengar84]

While we’re on the subject of RARE, I thought I’d share a link to the YouTube page of the guy that created many of RARE’s beloved characters including modern DK. He and David Wise have a pretty interesting project going on they’re trying to get off the ground called Salamandos, which is basically a spiritual successor to Battletoads. Right now they just have a few short comics and music by David Wise but I thought it would be fun to share.

Donkey Kong Country composer teams up with Diddy Kong's Daddy for MUSIC COMIC!

This theme tune to our new 'Salamandos' project was quickly put together over Christmas before performing it LIVE as the 'Dave Wise 5' on the main stage at M...

m.youtube.com

 

[Garteam]

I don't know about that, But I'm curious to know your reasons for your stance on it

Most of it really comes down to how both franchises have been treated in Smash thus far.

Sonic had a pretty good start in terms of series representation in Brawl, especially since that was a late addition. A character, a stage, an assist trophy in Shadow, along with a good number of trophies, music, and stickers.

Then Smash for Wii U/3DS came along and Sonic... really didn't get a ton. Windy Hill Zone was the biggest addition, but Sonic himself is largely unchanged in his moveset beyond a new down smash (and getting much more sterile animations, oddly enough), Shadow is still the only assist trophy, and none of the new tracks added were remixes and he lost many of his songs from Brawl. There were also the Tails and Knuckles costumes added as DLC.

Ultimate was slightly better, but still left a lot to be desired IMO. Knuckles as an assist trophy is great, but Sonic didn't get any new tools beyond a new dash attack and he still isn't as expressive as in Brawl. The missing Brawl tracks are back, but there are still no new remixes.

Mega Man, on the other hand, has consistently had it pretty great in terms of series representation. Mega Man himself has an amazing moveset that is arguably closer to his source material than any other character in the game. He was one of the few series to have a boss in the Yellow Devil. He got multiple remixes (although, his track total was still less than Sonic). Hell, basically every important character from the classic series and the other incarnations of the Blue Bomber all got new, HD models for no reason beyond making the trophy selection and Mega Man's final smash amazing. Even in the DLC, 4 popular Mega Man characters got Mii costumes (Hell, the X costume even got me playing X for a bit).

Mega Man got it even better going into Smash Ultimate. Rock has no changes beyond Proto Man and Bass being in his final smash (to be fair, most Smash for newcomers got very little new material going into Ultimate), but representation has been improved everywhere else. Zero and Dr. Wily are both more robust in their actions and more important to the Mega Man series than Elec Man. Likewise, the series has exploded from 10 songs to 31, with the majority of those being new remixes. Likewise, the series has 52 spirits covering the entirity of classic Mega Man's cast, many of the robot masters, and at least the main Mega Man of each subseries. Hell, Wily Castle even has the hazards from the 3DS version integrated into the Wii U one, which really shows Ultimate went above and beyond in terms of Mega Man representation.

Overall, I think Mega Man and Sonic are definitely the two third parties most likely to get another unique character, but Mega Man's treatment thus far really makes me think Sakurai has his eye on that series in particular and, therefore, Mega Man would get a second character before Sonic.

 

[Opossum]

It's always FIre Emblem though. Nintendo needs to seriously needs to make Intelligent Systems reuse some of those characters for future games like a remake of Marth's game or something. It's ridiculous how everytime those people draw up some new protag it automatically gets shoehorned into Smash.

Suggesting that Nintendo, who have generally been hands off with Intelligent Systems when it comes to Fire Emblem, suddenly start dictating the direction of the series to appeal to angry internet Smash fans without regard for the series itself is both incredibly misguided and grossly late-stage capitalistic. Corporate monoliths mandating how their partners operate after having let them do what they wanted for so long is not okay.

And also, unlike something like Mario, Fire Emblem games actually have, you know, stories and continuity. Forcing sequels just so whiny Smash fans don't get upset, despite these characters and stories almost always having closure, is incredibly dumb. And the best part? The worlds that weren't fully explored and still have ample room to grow? Those aren't the ones already in Smash. Those are the ones like the world of Magvel from The Sacred Stones, which only had one game to explore its world.

What Nintendo should do, if anything, is make the older games more available for the public to buy instead of forcing them to emulate. The Tellius duology in particular, due to the relative complexity with emulating it compared to the rest of the series and the exorbitantly high secondary aftermarket price. But this also isn't a problem exclusive to Fire Emblem and I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to put it behind some, like, $200 NSO update because they're a bunch of tone deaf dinosaurs, who march to the beat of their own drum with zero awareness of the fact that their drum is actually a saxophone.

And Marth's games have already been remade. I'm an Archanea super fan, but there's no real need to yet. If anything, fans are instead clamoring for remakes of, you know, the other games that haven't been remade yet and that haven't left Japan. Genealogy of the Holy War in particular. And the ones that aren't are instead hoping for an entirely new game, with a brand new cast of characters and a new world with new stories to explore. And frankly, I think it's wiser that the direction of the Fire Emblem franchise pays more attention to the wants of the Fire Emblem fanbase, and not the Smash fanbase.

 

[Dukefire]

If bayonetta would return for the next title, then her alternate look in her third entry seems fitting.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

I think we have discussed it but its true each third party universe has a different take on which games gets representation (fighter appearence, spirits, stage, music, items, AT, mii costumes, cameos, etc)

• Sonic has a little bit of every game, with music/spirits from mostly all their main games
• Metal Gear has a also a mix of everything regarding spirits/music. Stage and AT are from MGS1.
• Megaman has biased towards the NES titles, very few thing from the other subseries (the biggest is Zero AT).
• Pac-Man is based mainly in 80’s Bandai-Namco arcades
• Street Fighter has a huge bias on SF2 and its re-releases.
• Final Fantasy has only content from VII
• Bayonetta has a little of her 2 entries, I imagine that by next game, we will have content from the 3rd installment.
• Castlevania has a little bit of everything.
• Persona is of course based on 5th but we have songs from other titles. (+ P3/4 mii costumes)
• Dragon Quest is based on 11th installment, with some music (and fighter alt) from DQ3,5 and 8.
• Banjo-Kazooie is based on their N64 games.
• Fatal Fury has a little bit of SNK games.
• Minecraft is only 1 game.
• Tekken stage, spirits and Kazuya model are taken from Tekken 7, though there is music from all titles.
• Kingdom Hearts is mostly based on the first game.

I imagine each third party publisher has its own guidelines of what to (or they prefer) to include. There is also smash team preference or vision of how these character should be design/model/move/etc.

IMO, if they planned to include a third party character from a already represented universe, I would include Chun-Li, she is one of the most recognizable female videogame characters and the first lady of fighting games.

 

[uptonogood]

i think you forgot something very important Samus should be able to move as a morph ball when you click down

Read the down special page. I put that it would be her crawl just like in PM.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think we have discussed it but its true each third party universe has a different take on which games gets representation (fighter appearence, spirits, stage, music, items, AT, mii costumes, cameos, etc)

• Sonic has a little bit of every game, with music/spirits from mostly all their main games
• Metal Gear has a also a mix of everything regarding spirits/music. Stage and AT are from MGS1.
• Megaman has biased towards the NES titles, very few thing from the other subseries (the biggest is Zero AT).
• Pac-Man is based mainly in 80’s Bandai-Namco arcades
• Street Fighter has a huge bias on SF2 and its re-releases.
• Final Fantasy has only content from VII
• Bayonetta has a little of her 2 entries, I imagine that by next game, we will have content from the 3rd installment.
• Castlevania has a little bit of everything.
• Persona is of course based on 5th but we have songs from other titles. (+ P3/4 mii costumes)
• Dragon Quest is based on 11th installment, with some music (and fighter alt) from DQ3,5 and 8.
• Banjo-Kazooie is based on their N64 games.
• Fatal Fury has a little bit of SNK games.
• Minecraft is only 1 game.
• Tekken stage, spirits and Kazuya model are taken from Tekken 7, though there is music from all titles.
• Kingdom Hearts is mostly based on the first game.

I imagine each third party publisher has its own guidelines of what to (or they prefer) to include. There is also smash team preference or vision of how these character should be design/model/move/etc.

IMO, if they planned to include a third party character from a already represented universe, I would include Chun-Li, she is one of the most recognizable female videogame characters and the first lady of fighting games.

I really do wish SF gets Volcanic Rim as a track one day

 

[DarthEnderX]

Not only that but I’m pretty confident we’d already have the Battletoads, Fulgore, Joanna Dark, and Conker if Rare was still with Nintendo. Rare was a huge part of Nintendo’s history and I feel they would have gotten all their classic IP represented.

We'd also probably have a lot more games in those franchises and more Rare games in general if Nintendo owned Rare.

I really do wish SF gets Volcanic Rim as a track one day

Yes. Yeees! YEEEEEES!!

It's the best song in all of Street Fighter.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Not only that but I’m pretty confident we’d already have the Battletoads, Fulgore, Joanna Dark, and Conker if Rare was still with Nintendo. Rare was a huge part of Nintendo’s history and I feel they would have gotten all their classic IP represented. I still have some hope that we’ll see at least one of these characters in the next Smash since Rare is a bit more relevant than it has been in the past thanks to Sea of Thieves and reboots of their classic franchises, not to mention Banjo Kazooie coming to Switch online.

Ill be honest, the only three Rare franchises I could see really still being relevant under Nintendo's wing would be Perfect Dark, Banjo, and maybe KI. Banjo and Perfect Dark were both strong successes on the N64, and with how strong Goldeneye did I would not be surprised if Nintendo made Perfect Dark their marquis FPS game. As for KI, it was a big marketing push in the 90s. While KI Gold did not do great, I think we would see KI come back at some point potentially after the traditional fighter renaissance of the late 2000s.

As for Conker, I will be honest Conker was always going to be niche, and I say that as someone who loves Conker. First off, Conker really is only a game that could have worked in the fifth generation. For starters, the game effectively is a satire of 3D platfomers, which were king in the late 90s. Doing this later when that genre is not on top or rare like it can be nowadays is just not going to work. Secondly, Conker also got away with a lot due to the novelty of being a "mature" game back in the day. Gaming was still going through this weird period in the late 90s, where while the M rating existed and games for it existed, nothing really pushed the boundaries like Conker did. Think of how poorly Conker Live and Reloaded did a few years later, when during the PS2 era those boundaries were much more explored. At least part of that was due to it having an infinitely inferior multiplayer mode, but a large part of that likely was due to the fact Conker just is hard to push in a modern environment.

 

[Dinoman96]

There's actually one Rare game made post the buyout that I think would of been much more successful as a Nintendo game:

The Viva Pinata games are almost always hailed as some of Rare's best works by those who played them, and they're even DKC/Banjo designer Gregg Mayles' favorite Rare games. The games probably would of resonated much more with Nintendo loyalists than it did with Xbox gamers. I think if VP1 came out as a Nintendo published launch title for Wii then it would of been hailed as an all time classic the same way games like DKC2, Banjo-Kazooie and Goldeneye 007 are.

There was a spinoff on DS, but eh.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It's a Nintendo game... it should be dominated by Nintendo stuff - why would they make a game and shaft their own properties and history? I don't buy and play smash for the hopes of weird 3rd party dlc additions. I want to play as Link and as Olimar and as Little Mac and it turns out as Incineroar. Smash is a celebration of Nintendo and 3rd party gaming is invited to join the fun.

Smash acknowledging there's way more to Nintendo than Mario/Pokemon/Zelda is NOT a bad thing. Just makes the idea that it should transcend Nintendo and become a celebration of gaming weird, considering what other companies get in comparison is surface-level. Seriously, what "celebration of gaming" has more content involving The Legendary Starfy than any first-person shooter?

 

[PeridotGX]

Ill be honest, the only three Rare franchises I could see really still being relevant under Nintendo's wing would be Perfect Dark, Banjo, and maybe KI. Banjo and Perfect Dark were both strong successes on the N64, and with how strong Goldeneye did I would not be surprised if Nintendo made Perfect Dark their marquis FPS game. As for KI, it was a big marketing push in the 90s. While KI Gold did not do great, I think we would see KI come back at some point potentially after the traditional fighter renaissance of the late 2000s.

As for Conker, I will be honest Conker was always going to be niche, and I say that as someone who loves Conker. First off, Conker really is only a game that could have worked in the fifth generation. For starters, the game effectively is a satire of 3D platfomers, which were king in the late 90s. Doing this later when that genre is not on top or rare like it can be nowadays is just not going to work. Secondly, Conker also got away with a lot due to the novelty of being a "mature" game back in the day. Gaming was still going through this weird period in the late 90s, where while the M rating existed and games for it existed, nothing really pushed the boundaries like Conker did. Think of how poorly Conker Live and Reloaded did a few years later, when during the PS2 era those boundaries were much more explored. At least part of that was due to it having an infinitely inferior multiplayer mode, but a large part of that likely was due to the fact Conker just is hard to push in a modern environment.

I think Conker might have been able to live on in spirit, with other parodies of overdone genres. A late 7th Gen/Early 8th gen parody of the First Person Shooter, a modern parody of a FTP battle royale, or maybe even a parody of open world games would be interesting and would fill the niche Conker did.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ill be honest, the only three Rare franchises I could see really still being relevant under Nintendo's wing would be Perfect Dark, Banjo, and maybe KI. Banjo and Perfect Dark were both strong successes on the N64, and with how strong Goldeneye did I would not be surprised if Nintendo made Perfect Dark their marquis FPS game. As for KI, it was a big marketing push in the 90s. While KI Gold did not do great, I think we would see KI come back at some point potentially after the traditional fighter renaissance of the late 2000s.

As for Conker, I will be honest Conker was always going to be niche, and I say that as someone who loves Conker. First off, Conker really is only a game that could have worked in the fifth generation. For starters, the game effectively is a satire of 3D platfomers, which were king in the late 90s. Doing this later when that genre is not on top or rare like it can be nowadays is just not going to work. Secondly, Conker also got away with a lot due to the novelty of being a "mature" game back in the day. Gaming was still going through this weird period in the late 90s, where while the M rating existed and games for it existed, nothing really pushed the boundaries like Conker did. Think of how poorly Conker Live and Reloaded did a few years later, when during the PS2 era those boundaries were much more explored. At least part of that was due to it having an infinitely inferior multiplayer mode, but a large part of that likely was due to the fact Conker just is hard to push in a modern environment.

It's also worth noting that Nintendo may not like Conker very much. During certain generations I could definitely see Nintendo either making Conker games more child friendly or straight up refusing to make them at all.

I can't imagine the Japanese suits thinking the lewd and crude Conkey fits their brand. I know Nintendo has a direct interest in some mature franchises like Bayonetta, but Conker feels like one step above that.

 

[Gengar84]

To be fair, Conker is the one big RARE property I never personally cared for but it seems to be the most popular among Smash fans after Banjo. I feel like the Battletoads are hugely underrated as far as potential characters go. Their games may not have sold as well but their designs and moveset seem absolutely perfect for a game like Smash. The soundtracks for the BT games are also top tier.

 

[7NATOR]

Most of it really comes down to how both franchises have been treated in Smash thus far.

Sonic had a pretty good start in terms of series representation in Brawl, especially since that was a late addition. A character, a stage, an assist trophy in Shadow, along with a good number of trophies, music, and stickers.

Then Smash for Wii U/3DS came along and Sonic... really didn't get a ton. Windy Hill Zone was the biggest addition, but Sonic himself is largely unchanged in his moveset beyond a new down smash (and getting much more sterile animations, oddly enough), Shadow is still the only assist trophy, and none of the new tracks added were remixes and he lost many of his songs from Brawl. There were also the Tails and Knuckles costumes added as DLC.

Ultimate was slightly better, but still left a lot to be desired IMO. Knuckles as an assist trophy is great, but Sonic didn't get any new tools beyond a new dash attack and he still isn't as expressive as in Brawl. The missing Brawl tracks are back, but there are still no new remixes.

Mega Man, on the other hand, has consistently had it pretty great in terms of series representation. Mega Man himself has an amazing moveset that is arguably closer to his source material than any other character in the game. He was one of the few series to have a boss in the Yellow Devil. He got multiple remixes (although, his track total was still less than Sonic). Hell, basically every important character from the classic series and the other incarnations of the Blue Bomber all got new, HD models for no reason beyond making the trophy selection and Mega Man's final smash amazing. Even in the DLC, 4 popular Mega Man characters got Mii costumes (Hell, the X costume even got me playing X for a bit).

Mega Man got it even better going into Smash Ultimate. Rock has no changes beyond Proto Man and Bass being in his final smash (to be fair, most Smash for newcomers got very little new material going into Ultimate), but representation has been improved everywhere else. Zero and Dr. Wily are both more robust in their actions and more important to the Mega Man series than Elec Man. Likewise, the series has exploded from 10 songs to 31, with the majority of those being new remixes. Likewise, the series has 52 spirits covering the entirity of classic Mega Man's cast, many of the robot masters, and at least the main Mega Man of each subseries. Hell, Wily Castle even has the hazards from the 3DS version integrated into the Wii U one, which really shows Ultimate went above and beyond in terms of Mega Man representation.

Overall, I think Mega Man and Sonic are definitely the two third parties most likely to get another unique character, but Mega Man's treatment thus far really makes me think Sakurai has his eye on that series in particular and, therefore, Mega Man would get a second character before Sonic.

Understandable. I still kind of disagree to an extent since I think some of the lacking features with Sonic does have to do with Sega's Stance on things in regards to certain things like lack of Remixes and his Expression being off compared to Brawl (Sega might let him be more expressive in Smash 6 though). And Sakurai is someone that doesn't change movesets up too much which is why he's kind of just change small thing about Sonic's Moveset.

I do know that Mega Man has gotten alot of Love, and it's really great honestly, but Personally I just think the Pedigree of Sonic is higher, especially with stuff like the Movies and Netflix show coming out, and 2nd Sonic requests has been very large request for years, Culminating in Ultimate being the best Request cycle for them.

I do think both have good chances to get another character though, so there is that

I think we have discussed it but its true each third party universe has a different take on which games gets representation (fighter appearence, spirits, stage, music, items, AT, mii costumes, cameos, etc)

• Sonic has a little bit of every game, with music/spirits from mostly all their main games
• Metal Gear has a also a mix of everything regarding spirits/music. Stage and AT are from MGS1.
• Megaman has biased towards the NES titles, very few thing from the other subseries (the biggest is Zero AT).
• Pac-Man is based mainly in 80’s Bandai-Namco arcades
• Street Fighter has a huge bias on SF2 and its re-releases.
• Final Fantasy has only content from VII
• Bayonetta has a little of her 2 entries, I imagine that by next game, we will have content from the 3rd installment.
• Castlevania has a little bit of everything.
• Persona is of course based on 5th but we have songs from other titles. (+ P3/4 mii costumes)
• Dragon Quest is based on 11th installment, with some music (and fighter alt) from DQ3,5 and 8.
• Banjo-Kazooie is based on their N64 games.
• Fatal Fury has a little bit of SNK games.
• Minecraft is only 1 game.
• Tekken stage, spirits and Kazuya model are taken from Tekken 7, though there is music from all titles.
• Kingdom Hearts is mostly based on the first game.

I imagine each third party publisher has its own guidelines of what to (or they prefer) to include. There is also smash team preference or vision of how these character should be design/model/move/etc.

IMO, if they planned to include a third party character from a already represented universe, I would include Chun-Li, she is one of the most recognizable female videogame characters and the first lady of fighting games.

Okay so to be honest, even I know this might sound a little crazy, but I have a bit of a Hot Take

I think Chun-Li does have some chance due to her Pedigree as a character, but I'm actually unsure if she's as likely to be Playable in the Next Smash game has people might make her out to be. Part of me is thinking she might be unlikely

I think my Main reason has to do with Gameplay related stuff. While I see the Idea to add Chun-Li to the roster, I'm actually unsure if many of the people would want to play her per say

I think that has mainly to do with how The Street Fighter characters are Implemented into the game. I'm a Street Fighter fan myself and I had fun messing around with Ryu back in Smash 4, but I can't deny that playing them is kind of Clunky in a Smash setting. Between the Tap and Hold Normals, The Inputs (and Misinputs), Their Mobilty, and even some of the things they added to Ultimate like Proximity Normals and Auto Turnaround, it can be hard to Play them at times

They can still be fun, but I Imagine alot of people are kind of "Filtered" as they say by the Street Fighter characters. Despite how Iconic the Series is I think Ryu and Ken might be more among the Niche characters, and I think Fighting Game characters in General are gonna be Niche in the Playerbase due to how they change the game with their gameplay.

Keep in Mind that the Shotos are the Most Played characters in Street Fighter games themselves, which is something I can't really say about Chun-Li per say. She's not Unpopular, but I don't think she's been like a Top top Played character unless she Top Tier (3rd Strike). You see all sorts of characters get played more than Chun-Li, like her Best Friend Cammy

The Shotos in this game are already Kind of Niche because of the Barrier of Execution they have in Smash (Ironic being how they are the easiest characters to get into in Street Fighter). Chun-Li in this game might be a Niche within a Niche, especially if they try to make her Charged based

In comparison, Cloud is one of the Most Played characters in Smash, so it kind of just more Sweetens the Deal when they Added Sephiroth, especially since I did see Japan have him on their polls.

Chun-Li did get more popularity once it was shown Unique 3rd party characters were a thing, but I was already seeing requests for Another Sonic character and Zero even before that, and I Imagine they might be higher up on the Totem pole even know. Could even extend that to Alucard

This is a bit of a Hot Take within a Hot Take, but I actually think Akuma might be more likely to get in.

-He's Commonly one of the Most Played characters, usually being in the Top 3 or Top 5.
-He's Iconic, and Legendary Boss Character
-He has that Edgy and Cool Factor, and people love that. He has those cool moves like Diveball Hadoken and Raging Demon
-He could be echoish in Approach, since you could Balance him more relative to Ryu and Ken since they are all Shotos, and you can re-use alot of the Assets and such

I know Capcom loves having Chun-Li come with Ryu when they do their Crossovers, but Smash really is a Different Beast when it comes to it's Implementation. So I think in spite of her Iconic status, and Capcom love for using her in Appearances, I'm actually doubting they she actually get in as a Playable character

 

[Geno Boost]

Reject Chun-li
Accept Gill

Your worst nightmare
He will resurrect a stock during the fight

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

REJECT KING HIPPO AND METAL FACE!
EMBRACE DJ OCTAVIO AND ANDROSS!

Your Worst Nightmare.
DJ Octavio could hypnotize you and Andross could obliterate you with his Final Smash.

 

[CosmicQuark]

If Rare never left Nintendo, or at the very least the rights to Banjo remained in Nintendo's hands after the buyout, then I'm very certain he would of already been playable in Smash long before Ultimate anyways. Would of been a Brawl newcomer, most likely. I guess the worse case scenario is that he would of been a base game Ultimate newcomer and not DLC, like fellow Rare character K. Rool.

So personally I think that's a moot point.

Exactly. The problem with hypotheticals like these is one tiny change a long time ago changes everything. Sakurai mentioned during Melee they couldn't do Banjo & Kazooie and James Bond for a variety of reasons despite being well requested, and in the former case being an "obvious" inclusion. And we also know they tried to get trophies for Banjo & Kazooie in Melee, but the problem before the buyout was working with a company overseas. They more than likely would have been a part of Brawl, but assuming they weren't, and that Nintendo/Rare didn't do another Banjo-Kazooie games after the GBA ones, I would see Banjo & Kazooie not being as requested, and would have at best been a retro pick--not very requested, but used as a way to celebrate Nintendo's history, particularly since there's little from the N64 era. Banjo & Kazooie are highly requested in this universe, primarily because the legal issues challenging them being in made them more of an "impossible" pick despite having such a big legacy with Nintendo. Those two aspects, along with the feelings of their new company not doing anything with them despite their potential, added immensely to their appeal.

And in terms of cuts, disregarding any legal challenges, I feel like they would prioritize the older classics (Especially the original 8, but also third parties like Sonic and Mega Man), and the newest characters, particularly DLC, and particularly those who were highest on the ballot. Sora, Banjo & Kazooie, Ridley, King K. Rool, Simon, Min Min, and Pyra/Mythra. Though, I'd also like to see characters like Hero and Kazuya return, even if they're not my personal cup of tea. And I'd hate to see Joker cut, as I love Persona content in Smash. Even though between Fighter's Pass 1 and 2, there were only 3 characters I actually liked, most of them I would say were really significant choices, and should be a part of the base game next time.

Which if they could get over the legal hurdles of getting Sora and Cloud again, I feel like they might as well go for all of them and make an Ultimate Deluxe. And with the DLC now in the base game, they can put more time in them than they could as DLC. For Hero, they even mentioned wanting to make 8 heroes instead of 4. And some DLC could get base game content, such as assist trophies (like Morgana), bosses (like Gruntilda), and items (Shock Bomb). There's just too much great content that could be possible in an Ultimate Deluxe, that would be impossible in a game with significant roster cuts because those series wouldn't even be in the game. Just so Donkey Kong could throw barrels, which he probably wouldn't anyways in a cut roster because veterans not getting new moves is less a budgetary thing, and more a part of Sakurai's philosophy of not changing characters people may have already grown attached to (otherwise there were 3-4 other games he could have changed them in). And why take such effort retooling characters already in the game when a new character could both be fresh and bring those kinds of moves into the game--retooling veterans seems to only be an additional thing with whatever resources are left over. And while an Ultimate DX just delays the inevitable, I say delay the inevitable as long as possible. Because, inevitably, a Smash with a cut roster will disappoint more people than any additions (single player, retooled veterans, new modes) would make up for.

And for me personally, if there's a significantly cut roster, I'd stick to Ultimate. Even if I got characters I want, like Crash, it wouldn't mean much if that meant Sora and Banjo & Kazooie were no longer in, or even characters like Pokemon Trainer, who I've grown attached to over the years. If DLC characters were in the next game, but as DLC again, it would be disappointing, and felt like a waste of an opportunity to do newer stuff with them. And my biggest complaint about Ultimate has been terrible single player content, which sucks because that's the only way I can play it. But if the choice came down to keeping all the characters, including the terrible ones, or getting a good single player mode, I'd pick keeping everyone for as long as it's possible.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Smash acknowledging there's way more to Nintendo than Mario/Pokemon/Zelda is NOT a bad thing. Just makes the idea that it should transcend Nintendo and become a celebration of gaming weird, considering what other companies get in comparison is surface-level. Seriously, what "celebration of gaming" has more content involving The Legendary Starfy than any first-person shooter?

Because it’s Nintendo’s celebration of gaming. They couldn’t (and shouldn’t) give two craps about other/rival companies’ achievements. If you ask me, Smash shouldn’t be about all of gaming as a whole. It’s about Nintendo.

 

[CosmicQuark]

And almost all third parties in the game have been a part of Nintendo's history. Even Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts have had big titles on Nintendo hardware--to ignore them IS to ignore Nintendo history. If someone is so against third party characters, they can easily pick up Melee. But since third parties tend to be the big sellers, the most surprising additions, and some of the more requested characters, they're not going anywhere. The only reason Nintendo characters make up so much of Ultimate's roster is because there is no licensing issues and they can be used to promote Nintendo games. It's just nice when you have first party additions that aren't to promote a new game, like King K. Rool. And Smash being a celebration of gaming as a whole, not just first party characters, is not a fan thing--that directly came from Sakurai, repeatedly, during his presentations. That's how he currently sees Smash.

Ill be honest, the only three Rare franchises I could see really still being relevant under Nintendo's wing would be Perfect Dark, Banjo, and maybe KI. Banjo and Perfect Dark were both strong successes on the N64, and with how strong Goldeneye did I would not be surprised if Nintendo made Perfect Dark their marquis FPS game. As for KI, it was a big marketing push in the 90s. While KI Gold did not do great, I think we would see KI come back at some point potentially after the traditional fighter renaissance of the late 2000s.

As for Conker, I will be honest Conker was always going to be niche, and I say that as someone who loves Conker. First off, Conker really is only a game that could have worked in the fifth generation. For starters, the game effectively is a satire of 3D platfomers, which were king in the late 90s. Doing this later when that genre is not on top or rare like it can be nowadays is just not going to work. Secondly, Conker also got away with a lot due to the novelty of being a "mature" game back in the day. Gaming was still going through this weird period in the late 90s, where while the M rating existed and games for it existed, nothing really pushed the boundaries like Conker did. Think of how poorly Conker Live and Reloaded did a few years later, when during the PS2 era those boundaries were much more explored. At least part of that was due to it having an infinitely inferior multiplayer mode, but a large part of that likely was due to the fact Conker just is hard to push in a modern environment.

The weird thing about Conker was that it was allowed to be more mature on the "baby console" than it was the "big boy console" thanks to Microsoft meddling, which didn't help it. But also, if Conker Live and Reloaded came on the Wii than the Xbox it probably would have done much better, because like with Banjo & Kazooie, their appeal was being on Nintendo where that kind of content thrived.

I think that Conker would be a great pick for Smash in the same way Banjo & Kazooie were--platforming characters already have a moveset made for a platforming fighting game (which is why FP1 and 2 only having one really hurt them in my opinion), and are more interesting than fighting game characters since it's more surprising to see them crossover in a fighting game. The problem with Conker, I see, is he may not be realizable as a character because a lot of what made Conker was the mature content. Compared to other mature characters like Snake and Bayonetta, who were able to be toned down and keep their character. I'd still love to see Conker wielding a chainsaw, but most of what would be left would be the cuddly platforming mascot that Conker was satirizing in the first place.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Because it’s Nintendo’s celebration of gaming. They couldn’t (and shouldn’t) give two craps about other/rival companies’ achievements. If you ask me, Smash shouldn’t be about all of gaming as a whole. It’s about Nintendo.

May 10th, 2006
November 12th, 2015
December 7th, 2018

At any of these dates, this outdated mindset should have died out. If the creator of the game says its a celebration of gaming, and almost half of the newcomers this time were third party, I think it is safe to say Nintendo does care about other companies achievements. Heck, there is a reason people meme that Smash selected better third party picks from Sony systems than Sony's own fighter. I think its safe to say that this sort of mindset should be dead and buried. Sorry not sorry to disappoint you, but Smash is about gaming as a whole.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And almost all third parties have been a part of Nintendo's history. Even Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts have had big titles on Nintendo hardware--to ignore them IS to ignore Nintendo history. If someone is so against third party characters, they can easily pick up Melee. But since third parties tend to be the big sellers, the most surprising additions, and some of the more requested characters, they're not going anywhere. The only reason Nintendo characters make up so much of Ultimate's roster is because there is no licensing issues and they can be used to promote Nintendo games. It's just nice when you have first party additions that aren't to promote a new game, like King K. Rool. And Smash being a celebration of gaming as a whole, not just first party characters, is not a fan thing--that directly came from Sakurai, repeatedly, during his presentations. That's how he currently sees Smash.

I'm not against all third-parties, my point is that Smash's attempt to transcend Nintendo is half-assed. Why bother revisiting ARMS if they want to go beyond Nintendo?

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I'm not against all third-parties, my point is that Smash's attempt to transcend Nintendo is half-assed. Why bother revisiting ARMS if they want to go beyond Nintendo?

Because ARMS was a strong success as a new IP. It sold over 2 million copies, it obviously was one of the biggest switch releases its year for better and for worse. If you go first party based off what was new and hot, you really did not have many options at the time. When the pass was being decided, Astral Chain and Ring Fit were barely out or not even out yet. For first party options to highlight the switch, they went with big successes from 2017 like XC2 and ARMS because they were proven successes and would likely have been chosen for base if they did not enter development too late.

And this is coming from someone who does not give a crap about ARMS and Min MIn.

 

[CosmicQuark]

I'm not against all third-parties, my point is that Smash's attempt to transcend Nintendo is half-assed. Why bother revisiting ARMS if they want to go beyond Nintendo?

While that was directed at anyone in particular, the point being Smash isn't just a celebration of Nintendo, it's now a celebration of gaming as a whole. The reason why there is so much niche Nintendo content is because they're more easily attainable. They'd revisit ARMS character because it would be cheaper than getting a third party character like Crash (even though I'd personally not want another ARMS character because I can't imagine them playing differently enough to appeal to me). They're not equal in terms of the amount of work involved. It comes off half-assed because Sakurai's goal was to put as much gaming content into Smash Ultimate as he could, and the easiest place to start is the stuff they already own. And despite that, I'm surprised at how much third party stuff outside of characters they were able to get, from spirits to mii costumes.

 

[3DSNinja]

I'm not against all third-parties, my point is that Smash's attempt to transcend Nintendo is half-assed. Why bother revisiting ARMS if they want to go beyond Nintendo?

Ohhhhh please, this is so full of bullcrap it's hilarious.

Smash can be about both Nintendo and gaming as a whole, and it's not like Nintendo fighters don't get in, or did you forget Byleth, Ridley, K Rool, Incin, Dark Samus, etc.
And it's about a celebration of gaming, but Nintendo's still at the forefront of their crossover, or did you forget that a majority of the roster was and is Nintendo? Frankly, the fact that you seriously want this series to only be Nintendo is kinda stupid, and shortsighted.

But whatever, you do you, but don't make it everyone else's problem that you're not satisified with the biggest crossover in gaming history just because Starfy isn't a playable fighter and Sora is.