Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Guynamednelson]

the fact that you seriously want this series to only be Nintendo is kinda stupid, and shortsighted

"I'm not against all third-parties" What part of that didn't you understand?

Hell, "Starfy isn't a playable fighter and Sora is" is the least of my concerns tbh. This game needs gameplay fixing too, not just le epic gaming crossover.

 

[3DSNinja]

Then act like what you're saying, because you say you're not against all third parties and then complain about third parties.

And again, you need to actually. . cite what gameplay issues the game has instead of just crapping on the roster.

 

[SKX31]

There's actually one Rare game made post the buyout that I think would of been much more successful as a Nintendo game:

The Viva Pinata games are almost always hailed as some of Rare's best works by those who played them, and they're even DKC/Banjo designer Gregg Mayles' favorite Rare games. The games probably would of resonated much more with Nintendo loyalists than it did with Xbox gamers. I think if VP1 came out as a Nintendo published launch title for Wii then it would of been hailed as an all time classic the same way games like DKC2, Banjo-Kazooie and Goldeneye 007 are.

There was a spinoff on DS, but eh.

TBF that game still did pretty well at the end of the day despite "only" selling around a million - both it and the sequel did get a 4K enhancement for the One X (which I'd presume would allow it to be played on the Series X as well). Sure, it might've resonated more with Nintendo loyalists, but its absence would've strenghened the image of the Xbox being the "'Murican FPS console" further - impacting sales of consoles negatively because you have one less title for families to buy - and console makers oftentimes try their damndest to ensure that doesn't take too strong of a foothold (see Nintendo and accusations of them being "kiddy"*). Just as Viva Pinata supplemented the 360 as an alternative to the Halos and Gears of Wars more mature games like Bayonetta 2 helped supplement the Marios and what not.

*(Sure, they weren't really keen on Conker, but that might be because as Swamp said, it's a step beyond games like Bayo.)

Also, from Nintendo's recent financial release and Q&A:

A: On next gen, we are not saying right now, we are still going through internal discussion on concept, timing etc and discussing everything 3)

— David Gibson (@gibbogame) November 5, 2021

 

[Guynamednelson]

then complain about third parties.

It's more like...complaining that people say Smash is no longer about Nintendo when the fighter's passes weren't 100% third-party and the base game certainly wasn't.

Also my issues with gameplay are the usual you hear about from the three people who care about more than just staring at the roster. You know, input delay, bad netcode, it being harder to fall through soft platforms.

 

[3DSNinja]

...the input delay isn't that big of a problem, and the netcode. .fair.
And wow, using an ad hominen attack and acting like you're so much smarter then everyone else because apparently everyone besides you and two others just stare at the roster like idiots, I'm so impressed by your higher intellect.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

It's more like...complaining that people say Smash is no longer about Nintendo when the fighter's passes weren't 100% third-party and the base game certainly wasn't.

Also my issues with gameplay are the usual you hear about from the three people who care about more than just staring at the roster. You know, input delay, bad netcode, it being harder to fall through soft platforms.

Literally out of the 11/12 fighters pass characters depending on how you view Aegis, 8 were third party. Out of the 23 new characters we got this game including echos, 11 were third party. Saying Smash is only about Nintendo in 2021 is just wrong. Way to try and simplify your opponents argument when yours is so easy to turn on its head.

For someone that says they don't hate third parties, you have literally been complaining about third parties even during the base game and dlc.

 

[3DSNinja]

As well, one question - cite any post where you've actually liked a third party addition.

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Guys, any expecting for WTF character for Smash 6?
Because mine are:

• Virtual Boy (Another hardware rep)
• Whispy Woods (Suprise Kirby Rep)
• Urban Champion (Could be type of Fighter that uses other NES Games to Attack)
• Wii Safety Guy (Could have same feeling similar to Wii Fit Trainer, and coincidentally he could be 2nd Wii Fit Series rep)
• Gameboy (Another Hardware Rep, but it could act like AGES from Sonic (Like he could transform into Nintendo Stuff like Pilotwings Plane as Up B) and it could have same feeling as Gameboy from Captain N)
• Diskun (Very Weird pick for the Game, since he could use Famicom Games as His Moveset)
• Goomba and Koopa (First Duo Joke Character)

 

[walugurl]

What are you talking about?

Waluigi is getting pushed more in the last few years than he had for a decade prior.

It’s all fluff, nothing more. Like that render on that Nintendo switch ad. Didn’t amount to anything. It was just used for that ad. It wasn’t even used for Mario party superstars.

 

[Dinoman96]

Would Nelson even be upset about any of this had Isaac made it to playable status? That's what their beef seems to have always been going by their history in Ultimate speculation threads.

 

[Garteam]

Smash is both a Nintendo-specific crossover and a general gaming crossover.

If Smash was just Nintendo and its close affiliates, , , and wouldn't have been DLC.

If Smash was exclusively a general gaming crossover and Nintendo received the exact same treatment as every other company, , , and wouldn't have been DLC.

 

[walugurl]

And now PowerA wants me to celebrate Waluigi being an assist trophy for the third time now? No thanks…I already have the controller anyway.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Here is a question how would you improve the original 12 to make them feel more advanced or if they are already perfect what more can be added to them?


I would say Geno, Bomberman, Doom Slayer, Octolings

Hot Take: Other with small changes like Kirby, DK and Samus. The OG 12 are actually fine they were way they are. Most of em don't even have new titles to even pull from anyways for content so it's moot to update most of them

I thought this belief died in like 2015 when Cloud btfo all the Nintendo All Star crowd and speculation opened up.

The era where first parties dominated Smash speculation is over, in no small part due to how few true fan favorites left there are to push. Think of what broad reaching, popular first party picks you have left. Waluigi, Isaac, Bandana Dee. Maybe you could count Dixie but to be brutally honest her support is mainly a Smashboards thing. Really, the only thing Smash has to do in terms of first parties is fill in holes that were created during this switch era. Picks like Officer Howard, Ring Fit Trainee, maybe a second Splatoon or Third Animal Crossing rep, stuff like that. While there are these holes that do exist, notice how not all of these are popular picks fan demand wise yet.

Furthermore, Smash stopped being about "Nintendo All Stars" at E3 2006 with Snake. People that want this sort of paradise away from scary third parties like Joker or Cloud that do not pass an arbitrary Nintendo purity test are setting themselves up for disappointment. Smash has encompassed showing off tons of the biggest franchises and trends in gaming. Let's go through what we got in case you do not get it.

The thing is, Smash has settled into this role of a multiplayer experience. I sunk my teeth into WoL, got all the spirits (which meant playing through it twice), did every Classic mode, and I still spend far more time in Multiplayer matches. People play smash overall less because they want to experience stuff like Coin Launcher or Crazy Orders and more to play as their favorite characters and fight their friends. At best, the stuff the next smash will likely focus on will be stuff like a more robust online component.

Even then, consider how in ultimate we got 6 newcomers and 7 returning veterans, 4 of which I would call rather complex and only one had any work done on them before in Ice Climbers. If we did not bring everyone back, with all the stuff Ultimate brought we easily could have gotten around 10-12 newcomers, including how much time was spent working on having 103 beautiful HD stages at launch, an entire mode in Spirits full of references to hundreds of gaming moments, classic modes that were unique to each character with tons of them having references to their gaming past, and a revised online system that to be honest while the netcode is bad the lobbying system is so much better than Smash 4s. And we got all of that in ~3 year development time because they did not throw the baby out with the bathwater and used Smash 4 as a base. If we took that same logic and used Ultimate as a base, we could easily get 12 or so newcomers, some extra content, and better online with a reasonable development window.

Smash Ultimate as of this writing sold over 25 million copies. That is almost as much as Smash Wii U, Brawl, and Melee combined. Over 1/4 Switch owners own Smash. I doubt Nintendo would rock the boat that much when they know character hype for smash sells it and if you want proof, look at how well ultimate did. I know that a vocal minority does want a super robust single player or a lot of new modes, but 99% of your time with smash will be in muliplayer to be honest. Remember Smash Tour? How often did you ever play Smash Tour? Resource wise, it does not make sense going nuclear on the roster and cutting characters just to throw in modes that may or may not even be popular, when we know the formula works.

Getting real tired about the "Smash must run and dominated by popular third parties pick" which was one of the few reasons I wrote that rant on the previous Speculation Thread. There are still more first party pick and even franchises like Zelda, Splatoon and Kirby that can use to the extra support such as Magolor, Skull Kid, Tingle, Tarzana, Fawful, King Boo, Darkrai, E.M.M.I, Octolings both types, Squid Sisters etc. all would be great additions for the next game. Also still don't why people still say popular and relevancy are required despite being broken time and time again via Game and Watch, ROB, Dunk Hunt, Banjo, Terry, K.Rool. Sure, it helps but isn't a deciding factor like most like to claim. Also I agree with the development part expect the Online part. For Glory>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Quickplay. Would've been easier for Sakurai to implement Rollback if they kept to the 4's online model

Sorry, but I want it back to being a Nintendo all star game again, otherwise Waluigi will never be playable. They care too much about big third party characters because it makes them too much money.

Honestly, Same. I think the series will benefit much more from be Nintendo crossover with a few third party sprinkles kinda like how MK8D with Mario characters + Nintendo guests. Idk you are worry for Waluigi. After everything that has happened with him since 2018, there is no way he ain't a lock for new game. Even Reggie who was head at the time had to come out to address him for Smash which no other Nintendo character got that recognition

There's no actual direction or coherence to the roster, especially when it comes to the seemingly random selection of third party characters, and this could be rectified with a new game that focuses on the Nintendo portion of the roster and attempts to fully, completely, and coherently represent Nintendo's history. Ultimate is a hodge-podge because they brought everyone back without evaluating if those characters even made sense anymore, and then went hard on third parties to try to turn Smash into the "celebration of gaming" that it is unlikely to ever realistically become.

A crossover with everything isn't that special anymore anyway, considering how many games get one crossover event after another. IMO it prevents Smash from having its own identity even more than third-party-dominated DLC passes.

A celebration of gaming in general, and not just Nintendo, should not let you pit the Ice Climbers vs. Dark Samus vs. Piranha Plant vs. a Mii Gunner dressed as Ray Mk. III while the Arcade Bunny pops out of an assist trophy and they're fighting on Hanenbow. That's what I mean when I say the game dives too deep into Nintendo history to celebrate all of gaming.

Glad to see more people contend this, frankly silly, notion of Smash being the 'celebration of gaming'. Regardless of the poor effort to reach that goal with DLC with poor variety of gaming genres and designs being biased of one specific genres with similar design. That goal is just simply a losing battle that will cause more harm than good and makes Smash more of museum to gawk at staring a roster screen then a actual game worth playing and enjoying with favourite characters battling one and another. Everyone was here is already a strain and exhausting standard to make with licensing fees, negotiations, development etc stated by the Massive Hero himself. It's just not feasible to maintain overtime. Smash as a franchise would collapse and never be the same again with no real identity from other mishmash crossovers like MCU and Fortnite.

Speaking of Fortnite, despite its nature, it actually has a reason to be the way it is. The game actually has expansive lore that I've getting into as of late. It's really good and makes the world of Fortnite much more engaging. Smash has somewhat of that with the Toys being trophies, World of Imagination etc. Did you know that Master Hand didn't actually created the Smash World but instead gave life and used the Creation Trio from Pokémon to do it for him? but other than a few comments behind of scenes of Subspace and some trophies, they don't do much with it which a shame. It's one main drawbacks from WoL despite liking it so much. The one thing Smash could take from Fortnite, its not the crossover mashes but the lore and inspire it for its own.

The more preferable route for Smash 6 is a return to form like the Melee/Brawl days with a Nintendo All Stars roster, few 5-6 third party, modes like Online Smash Run, WoL 2, Boss Rush etc with new bosses and old, Rollback with For Glory and you still have a great game that will still sell big.

It's a Nintendo game... it should be dominated by Nintendo stuff - why would they make a game and shaft their own properties and history? I don't buy and play smash for the hopes of weird 3rd party dlc additions. I want to play as Link and as Olimar and as Little Mac and it turns out as Incineroar. Smash is a celebration of Nintendo and 3rd party gaming is invited to join the fun.

That's what happens when people follow the "Celebration of Gaming mantra" blindly forgetting the true roots of Smash Bros.

And almost all third parties in the game have been a part of Nintendo's history. Even Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts have had big titles on Nintendo hardware--to ignore them IS to ignore Nintendo history.

Nintendo history eh? Tell me what Nintendo system did FF7 and KH1 first appeared originally?

It's more like...complaining that people say Smash is no longer about Nintendo when the fighter's passes weren't 100% third-party and the base game certainly wasn't.

Also my issues with gameplay are the usual you hear about from the three people who care about more than just staring at the roster. You know, input delay, bad netcode, it being harder to fall through soft platforms.

Netcode personally is fine. Input delay and Buffer can be annoying ngl.

 

[Dinoman96]

via Game and Watch, ROB, Dunk Hunt, Banjo, Terry, K.Rool.

Well the thing about that is that those characters mostly fall into two distinct categories:

1. Sakurai's obligatory wacky "surprise characters" (Duck Hunt, ROB, Mr. Game & Watch)
2. Some of the most highly requested characters ever (Banjo-Kazooie, King K. Rool)

So I guess Terry is pretty much the one "question mark" of those characters you mentioned, tbh he kinda IS the weirdest third party inclusion in Ultimate. I think Nintendo just wanted to give SNK a playable rep (they did support the eShop very early on with their Neo Geo games) and obviously they went with Terry because he's their mascot who still appears in KOF games, even if Fatal Fury itself was put to bed ages ago.

Like really the fact that it took the ballot for King K. Rool and Banjo to get into Smash is absolute proof that relevancy actually really does matter lol. It's just that they had just the right amount of fan demand to prove their worth to Sakurai and Nintendo. The likes of Skull Kid, Isaac, Krystal, etc probably just weren't quite on their level, hence why they didn't make it.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

There's actually one Rare game made post the buyout that I think would of been much more successful as a Nintendo game:

The Viva Pinata games are almost always hailed as some of Rare's best works by those who played them, and they're even DKC/Banjo designer Gregg Mayles' favorite Rare games. The games probably would of resonated much more with Nintendo loyalists than it did with Xbox gamers. I think if VP1 came out as a Nintendo published launch title for Wii then it would of been hailed as an all time classic the same way games like DKC2, Banjo-Kazooie and Goldeneye 007 are.

There was a spinoff on DS, but eh.

I wanted to reply to this earlier but had double post fears. I 100% agree, I also think Kameo - Elements of Power and Grabbed by the Ghoulies would’ve shined much brighter on the GameCube as well

 

[7NATOR]

It's more like...complaining that people say Smash is no longer about Nintendo when the fighter's passes weren't 100% third-party and the base game certainly wasn't.

Also my issues with gameplay are the usual you hear about from the three people who care about more than just staring at the roster. You know, input delay, bad netcode, it being harder to fall through soft platforms.

Those Issues are more Quality of Life Fixes. the Netcode would require time to put in, but the People working on the Netcode aren't the same people working on the Design of the Main game and such

I guess things they could add in the gameplay that might require time investment is More Movement options and perhaps Expand on Custom Moves again, though I don't think the Addition of More Movement options would require the Balanced to be changed up much, or even at all (It will change the meta, but I think Nintendo should let the Chaos Balance itself here), and Custom Moves could be balanced around the Main kit of the character. There's also stuff like Tag Modes and maybe even Assists, but those seem more like Fun Options that really doesn't need Balancing to be a main Factor

Guys, any expecting for WTF character for Smash 6?
Because mine are:

• Virtual Boy (Another hardware rep)
• Whispy Woods (Suprise Kirby Rep)
• Urban Champion (Could be type of Fighter that uses other NES Games to Attack)
• Wii Safety Guy (Could have same feeling similar to Wii Fit Trainer, and coincidentally he could be 2nd Wii Fit Series rep)
• Gameboy (Another Hardware Rep, but it could act like AGES from Sonic (Like he could transform into Nintendo Stuff like Pilotwings Plane as Up B) and it could have same feeling as Gameboy from Captain N)
• Diskun (Very Weird pick for the Game, since he could use Famicom Games as His Moveset)
• Goomba and Koopa (First Duo Joke Character)

I would imagine there be at least one Surprise character of some kind. I think it would be cool if they could get a 3rd Party Surprise character for once, though I'm not sure about that one. It would have to be one that the 3rd party will just allow Sakurai to take 100% Control of, but I'm not sure if that would happen. For 3rd party characters, My guesses would be Frogger, or Bub and Bob

The main thing with the Surprise characters is that they have to have some Recognizability. As Crazy as Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant are, Everyone knows or at least seen these characters before. They should also have some Moveset potential to get Sakurai's Juices flowing. In terms of Nintendo, Excitebiker or Mach Rider have some Recognizability, and already is a Unique idea being primarily a Vehicle based character, but if that Idea doesn't work, I personally think the best Idea is to do a Smash OG and/or Boss Character, Whether it be Master Hand and Crazy Hand, Tabuu, or Sandbag, but Sandbag already been down with SSF2

Personally, I think the Option here could be to make a Smash Original Character

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Exactly. The problem with hypotheticals like these is one tiny change a long time ago changes everything. Sakurai mentioned during Melee they couldn't do Banjo & Kazooie and James Bond for a variety of reasons despite being well requested, and in the former case being an "obvious" inclusion. And we also know they tried to get trophies for Banjo & Kazooie in Melee, but the problem before the buyout was working with a company overseas. They more than likely would have been a part of Brawl, but assuming they weren't, and that Nintendo/Rare didn't do another Banjo-Kazooie games after the GBA ones, I would see Banjo & Kazooie not being as requested, and would have at best been a retro pick--not very requested, but used as a way to celebrate Nintendo's history, particularly since there's little from the N64 era. Banjo & Kazooie are highly requested in this universe, primarily because the legal issues challenging them being in made them more of an "impossible" pick despite having such a big legacy with Nintendo. Those two aspects, along with the feelings of their new company not doing anything with them despite their potential, added immensely to their appeal.

And in terms of cuts, disregarding any legal challenges, I feel like they would prioritize the older classics (Especially the original 8, but also third parties like Sonic and Mega Man), and the newest characters, particularly DLC, and particularly those who were highest on the ballot. Sora, Banjo & Kazooie, Ridley, King K. Rool, Simon, Min Min, and Pyra/Mythra. Though, I'd also like to see characters like Hero and Kazuya return, even if they're not my personal cup of tea. And I'd hate to see Joker cut, as I love Persona content in Smash. Even though between Fighter's Pass 1 and 2, there were only 3 characters I actually liked, most of them I would say were really significant choices, and should be a part of the base game next time.

Which if they could get over the legal hurdles of getting Sora and Cloud again, I feel like they might as well go for all of them and make an Ultimate Deluxe. And with the DLC now in the base game, they can put more time in them than they could as DLC. For Hero, they even mentioned wanting to make 8 heroes instead of 4. And some DLC could get base game content, such as assist trophies (like Morgana), bosses (like Gruntilda), and items (Shock Bomb). There's just too much great content that could be possible in an Ultimate Deluxe, that would be impossible in a game with significant roster cuts because those series wouldn't even be in the game. Just so Donkey Kong could throw barrels, which he probably wouldn't anyways in a cut roster because veterans not getting new moves is less a budgetary thing, and more a part of Sakurai's philosophy of not changing characters people may have already grown attached to (otherwise there were 3-4 other games he could have changed them in). And why take such effort retooling characters already in the game when a new character could both be fresh and bring those kinds of moves into the game--retooling veterans seems to only be an additional thing with whatever resources are left over. And while an Ultimate DX just delays the inevitable, I say delay the inevitable as long as possible. Because, inevitably, a Smash with a cut roster will disappoint more people than any additions (single player, retooled veterans, new modes) would make up for.

And for me personally, if there's a significantly cut roster, I'd stick to Ultimate. Even if I got characters I want, like Crash, it wouldn't mean much if that meant Sora and Banjo & Kazooie were no longer in, or even characters like Pokemon Trainer, who I've grown attached to over the years. If DLC characters were in the next game, but as DLC again, it would be disappointing, and felt like a waste of an opportunity to do newer stuff with them. And my biggest complaint about Ultimate has been terrible single player content, which sucks because that's the only way I can play it. But if the choice came down to keeping all the characters, including the terrible ones, or getting a good single player mode, I'd pick keeping everyone for as long as it's possible.

assist trophies for Ult’s DLC characters

YES! I would love to see the likes of Oracle, Aerith, Mai Iori, Gruntilda, Jessica (DQ8), Alisa Bosconovitch, Riku, Zeke and the Gatekeeper as a more wholesome Mr. Resetti as assist trophies!

I was thinking of having Nia be the XC2 AT, but my idea involved her going Blade Form which is… not for good boys and girls in the slightest

 

[Tankman from Newgrounds]

Those Issues are more Quality of Life Fixes. the Netcode would require time to put in, but the People working on the Netcode aren't the same people working on the Design of the Main game and such

I guess things they could add in the gameplay that might require time investment is More Movement options and perhaps Expand on Custom Moves again, though I don't think the Addition of More Movement options would require the Balanced to be changed up much, or even at all (It will change the meta, but I think Nintendo should let the Chaos Balance itself here), and Custom Moves could be balanced around the Main kit of the character. There's also stuff like Tag Modes and maybe even Assists, but those seem more like Fun Options that really doesn't need Balancing to be a main Factor



I would imagine there be at least one Surprise character of some kind. I think it would be cool if they could get a 3rd Party Surprise character for once, though I'm not sure about that one. It would have to be one that the 3rd party will just allow Sakurai to take 100% Control of, but I'm not sure if that would happen. For 3rd party characters, My guesses would be Frogger, or Bub and Bob

The main thing with the Surprise characters is that they have to have some Recognizability. As Crazy as Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant are, Everyone knows or at least seen these characters before. They should also have some Moveset potential to get Sakurai's Juices flowing. In terms of Nintendo, Excitebiker or Mach Rider have some Recognizability, and already is a Unique idea being primarily a Vehicle based character, but if that Idea doesn't work, I personally think the best Idea is to do a Smash OG and/or Boss Character, Whether it be Master Hand and Crazy Hand, Tabuu, or Sandbag, but Sandbag already been down with SSF2

Personally, I think the Option here could be to make a Smash Original Character

Nah, Tabuu would be too stupid for Playable role.

Master Hand/Crazy Hand would deconfirm himself and he will get replace by Master Foot/Crazy Foot, which it couldn't make any sense for boss, who is Smelly Sock Foot.

Sandbag, he will return as Item, so he won't join the Roster.

And For Frogger, eh he could be serious pick due to his Iconic role and Bub & Bob could be 3rd Party Duo Character.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Glad to see more people contend this, frankly silly, notion of Smash being the 'celebration of gaming'.

Yeah, I don't know how anybody could come up with some "silly" notion. Whether you like it or not, that's how Sakurai now views Smash, and it's been highly profitable for them. If you don't like it, that's fine. But there's always Melee and Mario Kart if you hate third parties.

Nintendo history eh? Tell me what Nintendo system did FF7 and KH1 first appeared originally?

Which is why I mentioned Final Fantasy instead of FF7, the first 6 games appeared on NES and SNES and were a big part of Nintendo's library at the time, and Kingdom Hearts and not KH1, there were many popular KH games on Nintendo handheld systems, particularly Chain of Memories and 3D Drop Distance. If you're so pedantic that only games from series that had previously been on a Nintendo system count, I can't help you. But if you were to argue FF and KH haven't been big series for Nintendo, it's intentionally being dense. One reason Nintendo wants to hype up FF and KH in Smash, including another FF character (which I personally didn't care for) is because of how big those series have been to Nintendo in the past and wanting to further those relationships in the future.

Taking the third parties out of Nintendo's history still leaves a lot, but isn't a full reflection of their console history.

EDIT: If/then statements are better than definitive statements.

 

[7NATOR]

Nah, Tabuu would be too stupid for Playable role.

Master Hand/Crazy Hand would deconfirm himself and he will get replace by Master Foot/Crazy Foot, which it couldn't make any sense for boss, who is Smelly Sock Foot.

Sandbag, he will return as Item, so he won't join the Roster.

And For Frogger, eh he could be serious pick due to his Iconic role and Bub & Bob could be 3rd Party Duo Character.

I don't Know, Tabuu has alot of moves. Then again he did get destroyed, though he's back as a Spirit, so I Don't Know

If they introduce Master Foot/Crazy Foot, they might as well just introduce the Whole Master Himself. Could be a Multi Phase Boss fight of some kind

The reason I look at Frogger as a "Surprise Character" is that he is Iconic, but no one is looking for Frogger. He's kind of in a Hiatus and all he's known for is trying not to get run over be Vehicles, so it be interesting to see how they Make a whole moveset for him

Though I'm gonna be real, Thinking about it, I think the Real Surprise character would be Mickey Mouse. Disney is already on Board, and everyone already knows who Mickey is, but the Surprise is that no one thinks No Video Game Origin characters will be Playable because of what Sakurai has said, and also all the Negotations. There is a theory that one of the Stipulations to putting in Sora is that they Also Put in Mickey Mouse some point in the Future. Disney knows Mickey vs Mario would be one of the Most Legendary Crossovers ever.

Though Surprise characters are added in because well, they are a Surprise and for Fun addition, and Mickey wouldn't seem like that since there's much more to Adding Mickey in Smash than just as a Surprise. So In the end, I'm not sure who the Surprise character would be, but I guess that's the whole point of the character being a Surprise isn't it

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Guys, any expecting for WTF character for Smash 6?
Because mine are:

Maybe Excitebiker ? It would be a curious concept and Sakurai is far more experienced than 20 years ago so maybe he can figure a moveset for him. Plus, Excitebike is one of the 10 most best selling Nintendo published NES games.


btw, would like if the base for next smash game is:

• X third party collaborations
• X modern Nintendo characters.
• 1-2 fan requested first party characters.
• 1 WTF/Retro/Surprise character.

non Nintendo characters always excites fans because of the imposibility people have regarding “this character is impossible” “no way this company would give him” “not likely Nintendo is interested in that IP”

 

[ForsakenM]

Because ARMS was a strong success as a new IP. It sold over 2 million copies, it obviously was one of the biggest switch releases its year for better and for worse. If you go first party based off what was new and hot, you really did not have many options at the time. When the pass was being decided, Astral Chain and Ring Fit were barely out or not even out yet. For first party options to highlight the switch, they went with big successes from 2017 like XC2 and ARMS because they were proven successes and would likely have been chosen for base if they did not enter development too late.

And this is coming from someone who does not give a crap about ARMS and Min MIn.

Didn't stop Byleth, and Corrin leaked that info to them.

Also this argument is plain goofy silly. (Sorry, couldn't get the rights.)

Smash started off as a game that had no-name characters and someone decided to include all of Nintendo's big-brand characters and it was a smash hit. They added more of the 1st party people wanted in Melee and even more in Brawl, but Brawl branched into iconic characters from 3rd party sources.

It was sometime between Smash 4 and Ultimate that Sakurai decided he could make Smash essentially 'Video Game Celebration: The Game', and to do that you need characters that people love in the game, and shocker but Nintendo doesn't own all of them. They DO however own a metric **** ton of them in comparison to other companies, which is why even now there are requests for both older and newer Nintendo characters.

Whereas most companies have only a handful of characters people really care about, Nintendo compares to Disney in the sense that people care about just about every main character they have and even the side characters have tons of love behind them. The problem here is that, eventually, Nintendo WOULD run out of characters to add if they only focused on 1st party. They have banked on their icons for so long that the library of requests grows thin for 1st party, and the only reason we still have so many left is because of the catering to 3rd party mixed with general lack of awareness or lack of development time.

In other words, going full open to 3rd party was not only a great idea, but a necessary one to make for the future of the franchise.

Thus, if someone wants to believe 'Smash should be Nintendo stuff only' then they also admit they'd rather have Smash die as a franchise then continue to live on and expand into many different amazing ways. However, if their argument is that 1st party has taken too big of a backseat to 3rd party, then that is a very solid stance and has a lot of proof with recent inclusions. Imagine you have all these worlds and characters that you own the rights to, and all these requests for them, and you just kinda ignore the majority of them and sprinkle in a few every title. Now imagine doing even less than that for what is considered your greatest game in the franchise.

Let's be honest with ourselves: if you look at the history of Smash in the past, base game Ultimate is a letdown for 1st party in comparison, especially Smash 4. I've down the rundown of numbers of inclusions for 1st party characters from Melee onward, both unique and made of reused assets, multiple times and Ultimate falls short of every title before it. People don't see this because Ultimate added the purple space pirate and the thicc croc king (not to mention returning the rest of the veteran fighters) which gets everyone all hyped up, but when you drop the emotion and look at just the facts, Ultimate's base game roster for new IPs is a travesty in only featuring Inkling from Splatoon.

Spoiler: Breakdown of Ultimate being a base-game letdown. Skip this if you don't care.

If you compare the numbers, Ultimate as a base game just kinda blows. To lay it out for you all so you don't have to do the work...

• Melee gave us 14 new characters (Zelda and Sheik are very different in playstyle) and only 6 of them are clones (), which leaves us with a total of 8 completely unique inclusions. Melee introduces Ice Climber, Game & Watch and Fire Emblem to Smash.
  
  
• Brawl gave us 16 new 1st Party characters (ZSS is unique from Samus and each of the starters with PKMN Trainer play very differently) and 2 new 3rd Party characters, and only 3 of them are clones (), which leaves us with 13 completely unique inclusions. Brawl introduces Kid Icarus, Warioland/Warioware, R.O.B. and Pikmin to Smash as well as our first 3rd Party franchises Metal Gear and Sonic The Hedgehog.
  
  
• Smash 4 gave us 15 new 1st Party characters (each Mii Fighter plays differently and has many different moves to pick from) and 2 new 3rd Party characters, and only two of them are clones (), which leaves us with 13 completely unique inclusions. Smash 4 introduces Punch Out, Duck Hunt, Animal Crossing, Wii Fit Franchise, Xenoblade and The Mii Franchise to Smash as well as Pac-Man and Megaman/Rockman.
• Ultimate gave us 9 new 1st Party characters and 2 new 3rd Party characters, and 5 of them are Echoes (), which leaves us with only 6 completely unique inclusions. Ultimate introduces only Splatoon and Castlevania to Smash.

Now remember, I'm ONLY comparing base game here, and this is on purpose. When you reveal and release a game, you have a first impression and no amount of later tinkering or additional content can fix that initial impression. Even if the game is drastically better than it was years later, you will still have cut off numerous amount of potential consumers because of the time it took to make those changes and their impression of you from the beginning sticks strong. If you ate a restaurant and they served you a complete inedible disaster of a dish, even if they fixed that dish and hired new chefs and had lots of press praising them, what are the odds that you already found another place you like better that didn't make those mistakes in the first place and your initial judgement hinders you from ever going back? Very high, I'm afraid.

In fact, if we compared DLC, Smash 4 made many less mistakes than Ultimate even though Ultimate included many more bigger names. Smash 4 made one single mistake with Corrin, as the rest was bringing back characters people loved and dropping bombs like Mr. Street Fighter, Mr. Final Fantasy and Sexy Witch. Ultimate got a lot of big names and did a lot of things right, but it also messed up big time with Byleth (which is extra egregious after already doing this before), pushing ARMS and XBC2 into the DLC instead of just waiting for the next new game and picking Sephiroth partially to fill in gaps in Cloud's content.

To clarify, I don't find these characters being included to be mistakes, but the timing or reasoning behind them is very unfortunate and thus THAT is the mistake that rumbles the jumblies of the community. Just imagine a base game Ultimate that included Byleth, Min Min (though by Sakurai's own words, it would have been Spring Man instead at that time) and Pyra/Mythra because it was delayed another year. While still not the best numbers in comparison to Smash games past, it would have at least gotten to have more unique characters in the base game than Melee, which is frankly just sad that it didn't.

You can bring up whatever arguments you want as to why we got less characters overall than any of Smash title before it, but not only can they be easily refuted but it all boils down to Sakurai having to produce a grand product for a brand new console in about the same time he made Melee for Gamecube. Ultimate was rushed, and just about everything about it shows this, but it was just prepared by more expert hands. It's like those baking shows you can stream where they all have very limited time to make their goal: some will come out with absolute dumpster fires and others who are more experienced come out with something that has issues but is still leagues ahead of the rest.

Also, I'm not sure ARMS can even be called a success, let alone a strong one. I'm not sure what Nintendo has as a threshold for what is a success and what isn't, but being the 31st-most selling Switch title seems pretty good until you realize that multiple remakes, indie titles and ports have outsold it and we have a ton of games that just recently came out that don't have numbers yet in addition to big titles in the future that will SURELY outsell ARMS. I mean, I think 2 million is impressive, but does Nintendo find that impressive when it was a glorified launch title and other titles have sold 10 million+ ?

 

[Shroob]

Am I the only one who could give less of a **** if a character debuted on a Nintendo platform or not?


A character's a character. Regardless of who they are, where they came from, they're a video game character, they have their fans, etc.



I have never understood the mindset of "Third party bad", or in the more extreme cases how they're "Ruining the purity of Smash" like a certain white supremacist who used to post here regularly preached.

 

[Dinoman96]

Am I the only one who could give less of a **** if a character debuted on a Nintendo platform or not?


A character's a character. Regardless of who they are, where they came from, they're a video game character, they have their fans, etc.



I have never understood the mindset of "Third party bad", or in the more extreme cases how they're "Ruining the purity of Smash" like a certain white supremacist who used to post here regularly preached.

Yeah I'm glad I've never been petty about **** like this and just enjoy having all these different game franchises come together.

 

[ForsakenM]

Am I the only one who could give less of a **** if a character debuted on a Nintendo platform or not?


A character's a character. Regardless of who they are, where they came from, they're a video game character, they have their fans, etc.



I have never understood the mindset of "Third party bad", or in the more extreme cases how they're "Ruining the purity of Smash" like a certain white supremacist who used to post here regularly preached.

I mean, the characters I want are a mix of 1st and 3rd Party, with the majority being 3rd I think.

I think people just want more Nintendo characters that are oddly missing who wouldn't be by now if 3rd Party took a bit of a backseat.

However, if Smash would stop being rushed or put in awkward development positions, we also would likely have a good share of these characters.

I also think some people have more nostalgia for Melee and Brawl, which is when 3rd Party was small or non-existent. What they don't realize is that the franchise has just been better off with each installment.

 

[Dinoman96]

I just think a lot of people upset about third parties are probably the people who have been supporting the Nintendo characters who keep getting left out every game, like Isaac, Waluigi, Krystal, Bandana Dee, Dixie, etc and feel that all of these big name guest characters are taking their spots away or something like that.

Like I just said, I kinda don't think Guynamednelson in particular would be that upset about the third party extravaganza had Isaac already been on the roster, going by their post history.

 

[Shroob]

Like, I get it.


There's still a handful of older 1st party characters people want.

But

At this point, unless they have an extreme amount of fan demand going forward(Waluigi, etc), I just don't see them as happening at this point.


Characters like Ridley and K.Rool had years of fan demand with Ridley being talked about since Melee/Brawl, and K.Rool gaining a huge amount of support during Smash 4. Other 1st party characters this time around though? Either were Echo fighters, characters who had hit it BIG during the time between Smash 4 and now, or characters who were from recent entries to act as pseudo promotion.


This isn't to say to just give up, but I feel like Nintendo is incredibly selective in their own character choices, and unless they have a specific series that they want to bring attention to, or the demand is just too large to ignore(Ridley, K.Rool), I'm just not expecting a lot of 'old' Nintendo characters going forward.


I could totally see characters like Waluigi, Octolings, Ring Fit Trainee in Smash 6. But Isaac? Krystal? Maybe even B.Dee? Ehhhhhh.

 

[Guynamednelson]

"Your character could make it in next game"
"Smash 6 base game HAS to be like the fighters passes"
Pick one.

 

[Dinoman96]

I guess my issue with this that, well, most of the Nintendo characters left that people keep asking for tend to just be tertiary ones from already repped IPs. Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Ashley, insert random one-off Zelda character, etc

And personally at this point I'd just rather see all-new franchises be included as opposed to adding in some smaller side characters. I still think Dixie should get in (unlike Dee or Wah she actually was a lead character in her own game, two of them counting DKL3), and I could see the argument for more characters from Animal Crossing and Splatoon (prolly semi/pseudo-clones), but besides those I think they're better off focusing on new stuff like Ring Fit Adventure and of course more cool third party guests.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I guess my issue with this that, well, most of the Nintendo characters left that people keep asking for tend to just be tertiary ones from already repped IPs. Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Ashley, insert random one-off Zelda character, etc

And personally at this point I'd just rather see all-new franchises be included as opposed to adding in some smaller side characters. I still think Dixie should get in (unlike Dee or Wah she actually was a lead character in her own games, two of them counting DKL3), and I could see the argument for more characters from Animal Crossing and Splatoon (prolly semi/pseudo-clones), but besides those I think they're better off focusing on new stuff like Ring Fit Adventure and of course more cool third party guests.

But that's supposedly what DLC is for. Again, if the standards are different for the base game, act like it.

 

[Shroob]

But that's supposedly what DLC is for. Again, if the standards are different for the base game, act like it.

I mean, in what way?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, in what way?

Isn't it obvious? If you love to use "DLC can only be third-parties and new first-parties" as a means of gatekeeping first parties, pay attention to the "DLC" part. They take advantage of third-party hype specifically in the DLC phase of development because the third-parties involved get more money back.

 

[Shroob]

Isn't it obvious? If you love to use "DLC can only be third-parties and new first-parties" as a means of gatekeeping first parties, pay attention to the "DLC" part. They take advantage of third-party hype specifically in the DLC phase of development because the third-parties involved get more money back.

I mean, I don't think I am?


It's very obvious how they did the marketing for Ultimate.

Base game was VERY hype and requested 1st parties, while DLC was primarily 3rd party focused.

 

[3DSNinja]

. . . .and why is that a bad thing?

Like, I legitimately don't get why having more hype characters for the DLC is a bad thing, especially since most of the Fighter's Pass or even Smash 4's DLC characters were rather good - the only two I take issue with including are Corrin and Byleth, and Joker...well that's moreso because I hate how they handled him.

Legitimately, this. .isn't a strong argument, nelson. Though you don't have any, so I get it.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I guess my issue with this that, well, most of the Nintendo characters left that people keep asking for tend to just be tertiary ones from already repped IPs. Bandana Dee, Waluigi, Ashley, insert random one-off Zelda character, etc

And personally at this point I'd just rather see all-new franchises be included as opposed to adding in some smaller side characters. I still think Dixie should get in (unlike Dee or Wah she actually was a lead character in her own game, two of them counting DKL3), and I could see the argument for more characters from Animal Crossing and Splatoon (prolly semi/pseudo-clones), but besides those I think they're better off focusing on new stuff like Ring Fit Adventure and of course more cool third party guests.

I feel the exact opposite, I think putting in a character from a series and then moving on feels cynical and makes each “world” added to Smash feel more shallow and puts the burden on a singular character to represent as much as possible from the series. I’d love to see more characters from the same third party series since it makes the series added feel much more fleshed out and allows fighters to stand on their own rather than having to feel/play/look like a simulator from their game.

EDIT: Well, it’s not the exact opposite, since a fourth character for a series isn’t really the same as a second fighter, but I’d hate for all these third parties added to all be singletons, which is usually reserved for the series like Duck Hunt or Wii Fit. Not going back to flesh out these series would be a shame since it would widen the gap between how first parties are handled and how third parties are handed, and to me would fuel the latter’s deemed objective to get that company credit list as long and time-traveller hypeworthy as possible and wouldn’t really mesh well with the pre-established Nintendo side of things.

 

[Guynamednelson]

. . . .and why is that a bad thing?

Like, I legitimately don't get why having more hype characters for the DLC is a bad thing, especially since most of the Fighter's Pass or even Smash 4's DLC characters were rather good - the only two I take issue with including are Corrin and Byleth, and Joker...well that's moreso because I hate how they handled him.

Legitimately, this. .isn't a strong argument, nelson. Though you don't have any, so I get it.

Because you don't need to go all-in with third-party hype to sell the pass. FP2 could've sold on Steve and Sora alone.

Also Rie why are you liking all these posts gatekeeping first-parties? You know they'd be bad news for Elma if they were true right?

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Well the thing about that is that those characters mostly fall into two distinct categories:

1. Sakurai's obligatory wacky "surprise characters" (Duck Hunt, ROB, Mr. Game & Watch)
2. Some of the most highly requested characters ever (Banjo-Kazooie, King K. Rool)

So I guess Terry is pretty much the one "question mark" of those characters you mentioned, tbh he kinda IS the weirdest third party inclusion in Ultimate. I think Nintendo just wanted to give SNK a playable rep (they did support the eShop very early on with their Neo Geo games) and obviously they went with Terry because he's their mascot who still appears in KOF games, even if Fatal Fury itself was put to bed ages ago.

Like really the fact that it took the ballot for King K. Rool and Banjo to get into Smash is absolute proof that relevancy actually really does matter lol. It's just that they had just the right amount of fan demand to prove their worth to Sakurai and Nintendo. The likes of Skull Kid, Isaac, Krystal, etc probably just weren't quite on their level, hence why they didn't make it.

Them being obligatory doesn't change my point at all especially when they aren't only examples with Marth, Ice Climbers, Pit, Falcon etc

Nah, Tabuu would be too stupid for Playable role.

How would Tabuu be stupid for a role?

View attachment 336849

Yeah, I don't know how anybody could come up with some "silly" notion. Whether you like it or not, that's how Sakurai now views Smash, and it's been highly profitable for them. If you don't like it, that's fine. But there's always Melee and Mario Kart if you hate third parties.



Which is why I mentioned Final Fantasy instead of FF7, the first 6 games appeared on NES and SNES and were a big part of Nintendo's library at the time, and Kingdom Hearts and not KH1, there were many popular KH games on Nintendo handheld systems, particularly Chain of Memories and 3D Drop Distance. If you're so pedantic that only games from series that had previously been on a Nintendo system count, I can't help you. But if you were to argue FF and KH haven't been big series for Nintendo, it's intentionally being dense. One reason Nintendo wants to hype up FF and KH in Smash, including another FF character (which I personally didn't care for) is because of how big those series have been to Nintendo in the past and wanting to further those relationships in the future.

Taking the third parties out of Nintendo's history still leaves a lot, but isn't a full reflection of their console history.

EDIT: If/then statements are better than definitive statements.

Where did I say I hate third parties? Smash can still profitable without that standard and Sakurai also said this process can't happen again. Going back to a Nintendo All Stars can still make bank. Nintendo owns 1st and 5th biggest Media franchise of all time so that's still possible.

If they were so important as you claim then where are all their franchises representation in Smash, especially the titles that debut on Nintendo Consoles, I singled out those 2 because that's the content Ultimate took from.

Didn't stop Byleth, and Corrin leaked that info to them.

Also this argument is plain goofy silly. (Sorry, couldn't get the rights.)

Smash started off as a game that had no-name characters and someone decided to include all of Nintendo's big-brand characters and it was a smash hit. They added more of the 1st party people wanted in Melee and even more in Brawl, but Brawl branched into iconic characters from 3rd party sources.

Whereas most companies have only a handful of characters people really care about, Nintendo compares to Disney in the sense that people care about just about every main character they have and even the side characters have tons of love behind them. The problem here is that, eventually, Nintendo WOULD run out of characters to add if they only focused on 1st party. They have banked on their icons for so long that the library of requests grows thin for 1st party, and the only reason we still have so many left is because of the catering to 3rd party mixed with general lack of awareness or lack of development time.

In other words, going full open to 3rd party was not only a great idea, but a necessary one to make for the future of the franchise.

Thus, if someone wants to believe 'Smash should be Nintendo stuff only' then they also admit they'd rather have Smash die as a franchise then continue to live on and expand into many different amazing ways. However, if their argument is that 1st party has taken too big of a backseat to 3rd party, then that is a very solid stance and has a lot of proof with recent inclusions. Imagine you have all these worlds and characters that you own the rights to, and all these requests for them, and you just kinda ignore the majority of them and sprinkle in a few every title. Now imagine doing even less than that for what is considered your greatest game in the franchise.

Let's be honest with ourselves: if you look at the history of Smash in the past, base game Ultimate is a letdown for 1st party in comparison, especially Smash 4. I've down the rundown of numbers of inclusions for 1st party characters from Melee onward, both unique and made of reused assets, multiple times and Ultimate falls short of every title before it. People don't see this because Ultimate added the purple space pirate and the thicc croc king (not to mention returning the rest of the veteran fighters) which gets everyone all hyped up, but when you drop the emotion and look at just the facts, Ultimate's base game roster for new IPs is a travesty in only featuring Inkling from Splatoon.

Spoiler: Breakdown of Ultimate being a base-game letdown. Skip this if you don't care.

If you compare the numbers, Ultimate as a base game just kinda blows. To lay it out for you all so you don't have to do the work...

• Melee gave us 14 new characters (Zelda and Sheik are very different in playstyle) and only 6 of them are clones (), which leaves us with a total of 8 completely unique inclusions. Melee introduces Ice Climber, Game & Watch and Fire Emblem to Smash.
  
  
• Brawl gave us 16 new 1st Party characters (ZSS is unique from Samus and each of the starters with PKMN Trainer play very differently) and 2 new 3rd Party characters, and only 3 of them are clones (), which leaves us with 13 completely unique inclusions. Brawl introduces Kid Icarus, Warioland/Warioware, R.O.B. and Pikmin to Smash as well as our first 3rd Party franchises Metal Gear and Sonic The Hedgehog.
  
  
• Smash 4 gave us 15 new 1st Party characters (each Mii Fighter plays differently and has many different moves to pick from) and 2 new 3rd Party characters, and only two of them are clones (), which leaves us with 13 completely unique inclusions. Smash 4 introduces Punch Out, Duck Hunt, Animal Crossing, Wii Fit Franchise, Xenoblade and The Mii Franchise to Smash as well as Pac-Man and Megaman/Rockman.
• Ultimate gave us 9 new 1st Party characters and 2 new 3rd Party characters, and 5 of them are Echoes (), which leaves us with only 6 completely unique inclusions. Ultimate introduces only Splatoon and Castlevania to Smash.

Now remember, I'm ONLY comparing base game here, and this is on purpose. When you reveal and release a game, you have a first impression and no amount of later tinkering or additional content can fix that initial impression. Even if the game is drastically better than it was years later, you will still have cut off numerous amount of potential consumers because of the time it took to make those changes and their impression of you from the beginning sticks strong. If you ate a restaurant and they served you a complete inedible disaster of a dish, even if they fixed that dish and hired new chefs and had lots of press praising them, what are the odds that you already found another place you like better that didn't make those mistakes in the first place and your initial judgement hinders you from ever going back? Very high, I'm afraid.

Spoiler: Breakdown of Ultimate being a base-game letdown. Skip this if you don't care.

Unless Nintendo literally stopped making games, how on earth would they run out of characters to add? That literally makes no sense especially you even said in there that Nintendo has lots of characters main to even side that are admirable. Third Party isn't an inevitability, it's a treat that somewhat got out of hand with Ultimate. Smash has and still can survive even without a single third party but I still say they should have 5-6 max for TP guests similar to MK8D for Nintendo characters.

Also it's very misleading and disingenuous to throw Base Ultimate under the bus in terms of first party intentionally leaving out the part where they focused on bring all characters back which where mostly First party + its Newcomers whilst every other game barring Melee had significant cuts to this roster. Base Ult literally has Melee, Brawl and 4 newcomers and then some. Ignorant on your part. First Party falling behind and becoming taboo started with Ult DLC season.

Am I the only one who could give less of a **** if a character debuted on a Nintendo platform or not?


A character's a character. Regardless of who they are, where they came from, they're a video game character, they have their fans, etc.



I have never understood the mindset of "Third party bad", or in the more extreme cases how they're "Ruining the purity of Smash" like a certain white supremacist who used to post here regularly preached.

Missing the point. No one said "Third Party Bad" Just said Smash should return to its roots.

Also who was a supremacist?

 

[Shroob]

Because you don't need to go all-in with third-party hype to sell the pass. FP2 could've sold on Steve and Sora alone.

Also Rie why are you liking all these posts gatekeeping first-parties? You know they'd be bad news for Elma if they were true right?

But yet, they did.

And it worked.



Truthfully speaking, FP2 is frankly a stronger pass than FP1 just due to Steve Seph and Sora alone.

 

[Guynamednelson]

FP2 is frankly a stronger pass than FP1 just due to Steve Seph and Sora alone.

Speak for yourself. I actually listened to a certain quote involving recognizability not being everything from Terry's presentation. Which was forgotten when FP2 was finalized.

 

[Dinoman96]

Let us look back at Smash 4's (unique) base newcomer lineup

Supporting characters:

• Rosalina
• Bowser Jr.
• Palutena

Main player characters/mascots:

• Robin
• Villager
• Little Mac
• Wii Fit Trainer
• Shulk
• Duck Hunt
• Mega Man
• Pac-Man
• Miis

There's also Greninja, the obligatory new Pokemon (which I think is very much a different can of worms from other series in Smash).

So you can kinda see that Smash 4's base lineup was already very much shifting towards new IPs like Animal Crossing, Wii Fit and Xenoblade. And of course the obligatory new Pokemon and Fire Emblem hotness.

The only exceptions are the new Mario characters and Palutena. The former are obviously mainline Mario characters and thus super well known and popular, and the latter, well, is Sakurai's adopted baby.