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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,025
Its funny, Nintendo is the best and worst party for preservation. They're a remarkably conservative company and are likely ones that will take a lot of convincing to opening up their proverbial vault. On the other hand, I've yet to see any major long time video game maker so dedicated to saving everything as Nintendo is. The Gigaleak was a small glimpse into all sorts of invaluable minutiae that they've preserved and its telling that stories about lost data or assets have rarely popped up. In fact its very much the inverse, with stuff like the SNES Trials of Mana source code long since lost by Square Enix, but still kept by Nintendo themselves.

If he can get the big N on board to any degree, then that'll be huge.
 
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Hadokeyblade

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
10,613
Say, here's a more out-there topic for Smash:


Basically, a newly-elected Japanese politition is working to have game preservation treated the same way as other types of preservation: as in, making it important. Now I'll admit, I'm PROBABLY overestimating how big of a deal this is for Smash in particular, but if this works out, how do you think it'll affect certain characters/franchises' chances (if at all)?
Well if legally preserving them means there's potentially more chances for people to play the older titles i could see some more older character having a higher chance if enough people play the older stuff.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,967
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Well if legally preserving them means there's potentially more chances for people to play the older titles i could see some more older character having a higher chance if enough people play the older stuff.
I don't see that as too likely, the most popular cult classics are already pretty well known and probably at the top of their popularity, take Banjo and the MOTHER franchise for example. I doubt there will be much that would really stand out with the masses to seriously expect them to be more requested for Smash. And in Nintendo's case, they often make sure these more popular titles get a VC release or something similar.

I mean, just look at how long it took to get King K.Rool and Banjo, Geno is another character that's been requested for ages but still just doesn't cut it. Isaac is in a similar boat. I doubt Golden Sun and SMRPG being more accessible would greatly influence their popularity.
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
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Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,134
Location
Scotland
I don't see that as too likely, the most popular cult classics are already pretty well known and probably at the top of their popularity, take Banjo and the MOTHER franchise for example. I doubt there will be much that would really stand out with the masses to seriously expect them to be more requested for Smash. And in Nintendo's case, they often make sure these more popular titles get a VC release or something similar.

I mean, just look at how long it took to get King K.Rool and Banjo, Geno is another character that's been requested for ages but still just doesn't cut it. Isaac is in a similar boat. I doubt Golden Sun and SMRPG being more accessible would greatly influence their popularity.
yeah I’m with you on that one. Better accessibility doesn’t mean they’ll be more popular. Any cult classic is in a danger of being hyped up to much by its fans
 

dream1ng

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
1,903
I'm struggling to find a meaningful link between preservation and an effect on Smash. Nintendo, though perhaps the most secretive company within gaming, is also one that preserves itself the best. The vault runs deep, and includes stuff from other companies as well.

As for the third-parties... the kind of representation we get is mostly from pretty big gaming series, meaning the stuff that is likelier to slip through the cracks is also the stuff we're less likely to get.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,025
This also a Japanese effort at preservation, meaning that there's still no large scale effort in preservation of Western gaming properties other than the ones by fans.
 

Pink Yoshi

Smash Lord
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Jul 17, 2022
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1,848
Location
The kitchen, raiding the fridge
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Messages
6,683
Location
Bloodsauce Dungeon, Pizza Tower, ???
Okay, here's my take:
1. ExciteBiker (His game was one of top 10 most selling NES games of all time and he could have interesting playstyle)
2. Jonesy (His game became a worldwide success. Also it would be funny if Jonesy was in smash)
3. Jason & SOPHIA (My friend KneeOfJustice99 wants him in smash)
4. Space Harrier (He isn't speculated too much. He would be assisted by Opa-Opa from Fantasy Zone in some attacks)
5. Andross (Well, it would be weird choice but it he could seem unique)
6. Kratos (He would be very cool choice for a Sony rep despite his games having gore & swearing)
 

Lenidem

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
1,182
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
I like this game!

So...

6. Isaac (Vlad in the French translation): assuming spirits and trophies don't count as "representation", of course. Loved the first Golden Sun on GBA, still have to play the second one.
7. Skull Kid is my most wanted, if I'm being honest. He could have come in 8, but well, it is what it is. No complains here!
8. My best friend doesn't care about Smash, but he is a big fan of Halo. So it will be Master Chief.
9. "Rarely or not talked about"... I guess I can go with one of my pipe-dreams: Joanna Dark!
10. This one is kinda hard... I could add Tetra or Tingle, or Dixie or Cranky... (Edit: or Tails or Eggman, don't know how I forgot about them.) But I'm gonna choose Captain Toad.
11. Mmm. I guess the biggest "showstopper" I care a little bit about would Lara Croft.

Damn, I would be so happy with this.
 
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fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,134
Location
Scotland
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this
interesting conditions

6: Chibi-Robo
7: Toad with Toadette echo
8: King Boo or Gengar
9: Qbby
10: Rex and or Noah
11: hype, hype, what do normal people get hyped for? shrug. i got nothing
 

JOJONumber691

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Messages
1,726
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
Sami
Sol Badguy
Maxwell
Lyon
Raiden
Ganondorf with his actual moveset
 
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AlRex

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2012
Messages
1,119
For that meme:
Andy or Sami (Advance Wars)
Carmen Sandiego [sure]
Crash Bandicoot
Centipede
Eggman (Sonic)
Sandbag (Super Smash Bros.)
 

Laniv

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
2,006
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
Back in the Spotlight: Sable Prince Rings the Victory Bells!
Lucky Seven: Toad is Ready to Party!
Friendship Power: Lip Blossoms into Battle!
A Great Mystery: Captain Syrup Sets Sail!
Add to the Ranks: Dixie Kong Goes Bananas!
The Grand Finale: Oooh this is a tough one, hmmm... Klonoa Dreams of Victory!
 

Lionfranky

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
1,014
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this
1. Lara Croft
2. Agumon. Technically, my second most wanted, but I want to save my most wanted for the last.
3. Tracer. My best friend still plays Overwatch.
4. Ezio Auditore. Compared to Rayman, Assassin's Creed rep is still slept on even after Altair mii costume. Ezio is pretty much Cloud of Assassin's Creed.
5. Eggman. It was toss up between him and Chun-Li, but I think Sonic deserve second rep at this point.
6. Master Chief. "Finish the Fight" You can't get more fitting than this
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
Moderator
Writing Team
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
8,158
Location
Icerim Mountains
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
Underrepresented: Mike Jones
Most Wanted: Rygar
Friend's Most Wanted: Ryu Hayabusa
Rarely Mentioned: ???
Another Rep: Alucard
Super Hype: Master Chief
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,967
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
Spotlight : Isaac, Golden Sun
Wishlist: Impa (Age of Calamity version) / Dixie Kong
Friendship: Toad
Mystery: Conker
To the ranks: Dixie Kong / Impa
Grand Finale: Monster Hunter
 

Chuderz

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 18, 2020
Messages
473
Back in the Spotlight: Spyro
Lucky Seven: Crash Bandicoot
Friendship Power: Tyrael from Diablo (my bro always picks him as his most wanted)
A Great Mystery: Jack of Blades from Fable
Add to the Ranks: Barret or Tifa
Grand Finale: Master Chief

It's crazy how my list is borderline all Microsoft now at this point.
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
Moderator
Writing Team
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
8,158
Location
Icerim Mountains
Hmm...

So advance wars and master chief...

I like.

So I'm thinking ultimate's base had something that the next Smash may or may not have which is the so-called everyone is here thing going.

If it's not then I'd say base could have substantially more newcomers alongside vets. I'd wager even that it's possible some of the DLC characters could return in base (or as dlc but I'm focused on base rn).

If it is, then do you think the base would "suffer again" (I think this take is exaggerated, personally - that EiH ruined base by taking up slots) or would it not even be considered an issue because there's so few no rep Nintendo IPs that belong in Smash?
 

Wonder Smash

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 8, 2013
Messages
1,921
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
1. Isaac (I think Golden Sun is long overdue for a playable rep)
2. Ryu Hayabusa (No doubt about it! Hate how Ninja Gaiden got completely shafted)
3. Joanna Dark (One of my friends LOVED Perfect Dark)
4. Billy/Jimmy Lee (I don't think Double Dragon gets much talk in speculation)
5. Doom Slayer (DOOM is such a major series that I think is should have gotten far more than just a Mii costume)
6. Crash Bandicoot (Mario, Sonic, and Crash duking it out would be a great way to close the show)
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Flap and Swish~
Premium
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
34,011
Location
Cull Hazard
NNID
Irene4
3DS FC
1203-9265-8784
Switch FC
SW-7567-8572-3791
Here I was looking at adorable Ribbon Girl fanart on Know Your Meme (guess that trash website is good for something), and I find this

And I think it'd be really fun to talk about. I'd like to hear your answers.

Lemme give it my shot! For the record I'm counting this in context of the Smash Fighters Pass 2 already existing rather than this replacing it
  1. Back in the Spotlight: Andy from Advance Wars (Idk what else to pick since Isaac is an Assist Trophy. I think he'd be awesome)
  2. Lucky Seven: Ribbon Girl (The heck were you expecting, Silver the Hedgehog? Y'all know how much I want Ribbon by now)
  3. Friendship Power: Octoling (Not many of my friends are into Smash, but my closest friend that IS really wants the Octoling, so yeah.)
  4. A Great Mystery: Grima (Who the heck even expects this king-sized Magic Ridley to get in this game? His gimmick would potentially be being ABSOLUTELY HUGE and it'd be amazing)
  5. Add to the Ranks: Viridi (All three of my top three picks make it in! Viridi is the character I've wanted in Smash the longest, just so awesome and kickass and twisted and crazy. Playing as her in Smash has been a longtime wish of mine)
  6. The Grand Finale: Ratchet and Clank (My biggest crazy pipe dream? Check. Amazing moveset potential? Check. Borderline impossible but would break the internet if they made it in? BIG CHECK)
1. Fulgore. Because Killer Instinct is a great series~
2. Brian: My favorite option from Quest 64(and related games).
3. Waluigi. One of my friends who isn't on this forum anymore would love this character.
4. Max. Shining Force only mostly comes up when I mention it. :p
5. Shy Guy. Because it'd be a great mook for the Yoshi series~ (second option was Impa from the Oracle Zelda games)
6. Master Chief. Because, really, poor series not appearing despite being one of Microsoft's biggest ones feels really odd.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,967
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
Hmm...

So advance wars and master chief...

I like.

So I'm thinking ultimate's base had something that the next Smash may or may not have which is the so-called everyone is here thing going.

If it's not then I'd say base could have substantially more newcomers alongside vets. I'd wager even that it's possible some of the DLC characters could return in base (or as dlc but I'm focused on base rn).

If it is, then do you think the base would "suffer again" (I think this take is exaggerated, personally - that EiH ruined base by taking up slots) or would it not even be considered an issue because there's so few no rep Nintendo IPs that belong in Smash?
EiH happened because in a way, EiH was heavily requested by ballot votes. It was always extremely obvious by fan polls that the cut veterans, especially the more unique ones as Wolf, Ice Climbers and Snake where especially popular.

I think if EiH wasn't implemented, they still added the most obvious requested characters as K.Rool and Ridley and maybe took the approach Smash 4 had, relevance over everything.
 

dream1ng

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
1,903
EiH was probably in-part implemented because it's easier to bring back veterans than add new characters, and they could make that a big focus of base and get the game out when they had it out instead of later, as part of the desperate migration to Switch Nintendo invoked in 2015 onwards.

It was a smart call also because they were killing two birds with one stone, as Wolf, ICs, and Snake were all quite requested. And Squirtle and Ivysaur were probably going to return anyway once technical limitations didn't necessitate the division of characters, giving them higher priority. And at that point you may as well bring Yink and Pichu back.

But for EiH to not be a thing, it would've required an entirely different project plan, which, presumably, would've required a different, less disastrous console than the Wii U that Nintendo didn't have to jettison early and scramble to get a new library up for the internally premature launch of its successor.

Like the next time. Nintendo isn't going to be forced to get new hardware out before they intended this time, because the Switch is killing it. But whether that means the next Smash has a more traditional base set of newcomers depends on the rollout of characters. The current roster isn't tenable, so if they begin to revamp it, that could mean a more DLC-oriented, service-like rollout, which would start the roster with a small base, but frequent DLC over time.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
4,025
Yeah Smash Ultimate is a triumph as a title, but it was also clearly one put together to recoup even more of an investment in Smash 4 and to ensure that the initial weak start of the Wii U was not repeated again with the Switch. Everyone is Here ended up working out well because it was a crowd pleaser on top of being easier to do than a glut of newcomers. Its not unlike Melee in that sense, something that also was a brilliant game but very much hastened because the GC needed something significant beyond Luigi's Mansion to effectively sell it.
 
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HyperSomari64

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 10, 2018
Messages
2,996
Location
Lima, Peru
Since the season pass of MK8DX give to many people so much excitement, what if Ultimate is revived with the addition of something similar with the Stages.

Bringing back the stages that where cut, while adding a few new ones.
 

Sucumbio

Smash Giant
Moderator
Writing Team
Joined
Oct 7, 2008
Messages
8,158
Location
Icerim Mountains
Since the season pass of MK8DX give to many people so much excitement, what if Ultimate is revived with the addition of something similar with the Stages.

Bringing back the stages that where cut, while adding a few new ones.
I'd be down with anything but iirc Steve required all stages be redone from scratch so porting missing stages would probably be more difficult than what mk8d did
 

fogbadge

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Jun 29, 2012
Messages
21,134
Location
Scotland
Since the season pass of MK8DX give to many people so much excitement, what if Ultimate is revived with the addition of something similar with the Stages.

Bringing back the stages that where cut, while adding a few new ones.
could be fun with a couple of the missing stages. some of them i found to be unplayable. still if there was one or two new ones that'd be neat

I'd be down with anything but iirc Steve required all stages be redone from scratch so porting missing stages would probably be more difficult than what mk8d did
i think he said they needed tweaking not remade
 

SPEN18

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
2,049
Location
MI, USA
My opinion remains that they should not have done another full Smash game so soon after 4, that they should have waited a couple more years or so. I understand their perspective of wanting to get the Switch off the ground fast in the early years, but I don't think the success of the Switch ever truly hinged on Smash at all with so many other early heavy-hitters like Odyssey, BotW, Splatoon 2, MK8 Deluxe, and even titles closer to Smash's late-2018 release window like Mario Party or PKMN Let's Go. Of course, this analysis is all with the benefit of hindsight and I don't want to dig too deep into hypotheticals, but I would have rather seen a more relaxed approach without the stresses of getting the game out so early in the console lifecycle and cramming all the effort into making sure EiH was achieved in full. For some people EiH was worth just about any cost, but as someone who simply doesn't value having 100% vet retention, I think it narrowed the focus and the possibilities for Ult much too steeply.
 
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Ivander

Smash Legend
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
10,298
Since the season pass of MK8DX give to many people so much excitement, what if Ultimate is revived with the addition of something similar with the Stages.

Bringing back the stages that where cut, while adding a few new ones.
I certainly wouldn't mind new stages. But there aren't a whole lot of stages to really bring back, with some stages being very similar to another for one. While there are around 15 missing stages, probably only 10 of them are notably different and/or wanted, like Pac-Maze, Rainbow Road, etc. And two, I doubt they would do the Mario Kart 8 approach with them by having a whole ton of stages and doing one DLC Pack of 4 stages per release date, considering the new Stages for the most part are ported from Mario Kart Tour, where any new stages for Smash Bros. would have to be made completely from the ground-up.
 

dream1ng

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 24, 2016
Messages
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My opinion remains that they should not have done another full Smash game so soon after 4, that they should have waited a couple more years or so. I understand their perspective of wanting to get the Switch off the ground fast in the early years, but I don't think the success of the Switch ever truly hinged on Smash at all with so many other early heavy-hitters like Odyssey, BotW, Splatoon 2, MK8 Deluxe, and even titles closer to Smash's late-2018 release window like Mario Party or PKMN Let's Go. Of course, this analysis is all with the benefit of hindsight and I don't want to dig too deep into hypotheticals, but I would have rather seen a more relaxed approach without the stresses of getting the game out so early in the console lifecycle and cramming all the effort into making sure EiH was achieved in full. For some people EiH was worth just about any cost, but as someone who simply doesn't value having 100% vet retention, I think it narrowed the focus and the possibilities for Ult much too steeply.
The success of the Switch didn't hinge on Smash, but Smash is a killer app and inarguably moves a lot of units. More over, Nintendo tries to get most of its big evergreen software out at the beginning of the console's life, which is why Smash has always shows up within the first two years, since Melee. 3DS aside. It doesn't just help the system, it helps the game's sales as well.

I wouldn't really want to deal with a console where the output was simply dictated by what was necessary to keep the console alive. That's basically life support. That would be quite the stark lineup.

And also, the amount of newcomers we received was the highest of the series (plus they re-added seven cut vets), it's just that more of them were in DLC than in base. It's not like the finished Ultimate product skimped on additions, it just had a more limited base. Which is kind of how fighting games go, now.

Getting a full base plus Ultimate's level of DLC would be unprecedented for the series, so as an expectation it's not quite as defensible.

I'd be down with anything but iirc Steve required all stages be redone from scratch so porting missing stages would probably be more difficult than what mk8d did
They wouldn't scrap and completely rebuild over 100 stages for a character; Steve just required they be modified - basically given expanded functionality.
 

SPEN18

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The success of the Switch didn't hinge on Smash, but Smash is a killer app and inarguably moves a lot of units. More over, Nintendo tries to get most of its big evergreen software out at the beginning of the console's life, which is why Smash has always shows up within the first two years, since Melee. 3DS aside. It doesn't just help the system, it helps the game's sales as well.

I wouldn't really want to deal with a console where the output was simply dictated by what was necessary to keep the console alive. That's basically life support. That would be quite the stark lineup.

And also, the amount of newcomers we received was the highest of the series (plus they re-added seven cut vets), it's just that more of them were in DLC than in base. It's not like the finished Ultimate product skimped on additions, it just had a more limited base. Which is kind of how fighting games go, now.

Getting a full base plus Ultimate's level of DLC would be unprecedented for the series, so as an expectation it's not quite as defensible.


They wouldn't scrap and completely rebuild over 100 stages for a character; Steve just required they be modified - basically given expanded functionality.
With respect to getting evergreens out early, yes, I already acknowledged that I understand that is part of their business strategy. It might make sense to them from a money-making standpoint (hence why they did it), but I think Ult (and other games like Melee for that matter) would have benefitted both gameplay- and content-wise from not having that constraint, especially coming so soon off the heels of the previous installment. While getting Smash out earlier may have benefitted the system's and the game's performances, both would have likely done superbly well even without that boon. There is a line to be drawn, yeah, in terms of sacrificing the financial well-being of the series in favor of unbridled idealism and pipe-dreaming; but I don't think releasing this particular Smash game more towards the early-middle of its system's cycle would cross that line.

The DLC argument doesn't work because all that add-on content costs a ton of extra money, almost as much as the base game itself if you get all of it. DLC packs for Smash are way, way less content per buck relative to the base game. Saying that less brand-new content in base is okay because it gets fixed by dropping another 50+ USD on add-ons does not do the job. You can say that this is how fighting games are going these days and it's proven, yeah, to be a successful business model for them. Doesn't make me agree with it from the perspective of simply making quality and fairly priced games.
 
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dream1ng

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With respect to getting evergreens out early, yes, I already acknowledged that I understand that is part of their business strategy. It might make sense to them from a money-making standpoint (hence why they did it), but I think Ult (and other games like Melee for that matter) would have benefitted both gameplay- and content-wise from not having that constraint, especially coming so soon off the heels of the previous installment. While getting Smash out earlier may have benefitted the system's and the game's performances, both would have likely done superbly well even without that boon. There is a line to be drawn, yeah, in terms of sacrificing the financial well-being of the series in favor of unbridled idealism and pipe-dreaming; but I don't think releasing this particular Smash game more towards the early-middle of its system's cycle would cross that line.

The DLC argument doesn't work because all that add-on content costs a ton of extra money, almost as much as the base game itself if you get all of it. DLC packs for Smash are way, way less content per buck relative to the base game. Saying that less brand-new content in base is okay because it gets fixed by dropping another 50+ USD on add-ons does not do the job. You can say that this is how fighting games are going these days and it's proven, yeah, to be a successful business model for them. Doesn't make me agree with it from the perspective of simply making quality and fairly priced games.
If your point shifts from "the focus and possibilities of Ultimate were narrowed too steeply by an early release" to "look how much I have to pay for DLC", you've basically dropped one argument and picked up another. Because MSRP and possibilities aren't at all the same thing.

My contention remains that DLC rectified the limited possibilities of base's reduced newcomer amount by providing a dozen original newcomers, bringing the character count above the previous peak. It's not like with a later launch, they would've allocated the budget to a fleshed out adventure mode.

If your contention is that DLC is more expensive per content received than base, then yeah. Welcome to the industry. That's not a problem for most people if they don't feel shortchanged by base or the content received via DLC. And to feel shortchanged by Ultimate's base, even with its limited pool of newcomers, would put you in a minority wherein that opinion won't make many waves. Same with DLC actually, considering the quantity of content that came in a pack. People do feel it's all quality, and people do feel it's fairly priced. The biggest grievance people used to have was paying for a pass before knowing its content.

You can feel how you want to feel, but if the argument is about price now, I guess that means we're done talking about the "possibilities of Ultimate" and now we're talking about the nature of the post-release marketplace. Either that or by "possibilities of Ultimate" you just meant the possibility of paying $25 less.
 

SPEN18

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If your point shifts from "the focus and possibilities of Ultimate were narrowed too steeply by an early release" to "look how much I have to pay for DLC", you've basically dropped one argument and picked up another. Because MSRP and possibilities aren't at all the same thing.
My contention remains that DLC rectified the limited possibilities of base's reduced newcomer amount by providing a dozen original newcomers, bringing the character count above the previous peak. It's not like with a later launch, they would've allocated the budget to a fleshed out adventure mode.
The point was that getting more content later was not a replacement for getting the most and best content we could have had in base. Once the resources on base were spent, they became a sunk cost that could not be recouped by DLC; we could have gotten the exact same amount of DLC as we got with a better base game released slightly later in the console's lifespan.

Even if I were to concede that the DLC "rectified the limited possibilities of base's reduced newcomer amount by providing a dozen original newcomers," it still could not do that without ballooning the cost of the finished product, in which case it is absolutely a failure that they were unable to deliver a suitable amount of brand-new content at the standard and audience-expected Switch game MSRP.

While I may have gone on a bit too much when emphasizing the price hike of buying the so-called finished Ult product, the argument is not totally disjoint from the previous one. The cost and the possibilities are directly related because the possibilities each have a cost. More brand-new content in base would have come at the expense of some of the other design and development directions they chose to take instead of that brand-new content, but for me that cost would have been worth it relative to instead having to pay significantly more of my dollars on DLC in order to get that same satisfactory amount of new content.

But I will not even concede that the DLC rectified the newcomer situation or other issues I had with base. DLC additions are simply overall different in nature relative to the base additions, for one skewing more heavily toward third party crossovers. They're not the same as what usually fills out the back end of a base game content pool. In which case I feel that a noticeable amount of new content items could have permanently missed their chance at least for Ult. And there are other items besides the newcomers to mention, such as the pitiful selection of brand-new stages; the DLC indeed added new stages, but directly tying them all to newcomers certainly kept the possibilities severely restricted. And, as I said before, we could almost surely have gotten the same or a comparable amount of new content as DLC even in the scenario where they take a different direction for base.

And to feel shortchanged by Ultimate's base, even with its limited pool of newcomers, would put you in a minority wherein that opinion won't make many waves. Same with DLC actually, considering the quantity of content that came in a pack. People do feel it's all quality, and people do feel it's fairly priced.
I mean, I am well-aware that I am in a minority on this. It's okay. I recognize that my stances on the values of EiH, third party additions, and DLC in particular are not the most popular within the fanbase.
And, really, it's not the raw counts of characters, stages, etc. that make me feel "shortchanged" or anything (although the proportion of the content that was old and rehashed I did and do have an issue with). But self-inflicting the avoidable development stresses from having to get Smash on the Switch so fast and devoting all efforts to ensuring EiH could happen I did and do disagree with. I do think the possibilities for a more diverse set of brand-new contents was hurt by those directions taken, to a degree that was not and could not realistically be wholly rectified by DLC.
 
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