Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[fogbadge]

Smash doing a new stage DLC tour where a bunch of new levels (including from third parties) are released as paid content would get me excited, I can't lie. Maybe throw in a few new Mii Costumes in here and there.

i dunno, surely this hypothetical stage pass would be the lowest budget yet i don't think they could really afford 3rd party licences

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Gonna predict some Smash fighter trailer taglines for the next game...

Predictions

• Waluigi appears nonetheless!
• Isaac shakes things up!
• Skull Kid casts a shadow!
• Geno shoots for the stars!
• Bandana Dee waddles in!
• Shadow brings the chaos!

Wants

• Ribbon Girl lets her voice be heard!
• Viridi drops the bomb!
• Grima razes the roof!
• Ratchet and Clank rip ya a new one!
• Zeena snows her stuff!
• Gill Grunt makes waves!

 

[fogbadge]

Gonna predict some Smash fighter trailer taglines for the next game...

Predictions

• Waluigi appears nonetheless!
• Isaac shakes things up!
• Skull Kid casts a shadow!
• Geno shoots for the stars!
• Bandana Dee waddles in!
• Shadow brings the chaos!

Wants

• Ribbon Girl lets her voice be heard!
• Viridi drops the bomb!
• Grima razes the roof!
• Ratchet and Clank rip ya a new one!
• Zeena snows her stuff!
• Gill Grunt makes waves!

i don't see any of them happeing myself

 

[Diddy Kong]

Gonna predict some Smash fighter trailer taglines for the next game...

Predictions

• Waluigi appears nonetheless!
• Isaac shakes things up!
• Skull Kid casts a shadow!
• Geno shoots for the stars!
• Bandana Dee waddles in!
• Shadow brings the chaos!

Wants

• Ribbon Girl lets her voice be heard!
• Viridi drops the bomb!
• Grima razes the roof!
• Ratchet and Clank rip ya a new one!
• Zeena snows her stuff!
• Gill Grunt makes waves!

Hopeful list. And I say this as a Isaac supporter. Bandana Dee is the most likely out of all you named. However I could see Isaac, Shadow Ribbon Girl and Grima happening, the last three as Echoes or Koopaling like alternatives to Sonic, Min Min and Robin.

Isaac is still very much demanded, but not relevant. Can't compare him to K.Rool because Donkey Kong is a HUGE IP, and even if there's nothing new there will be one day.

Waluigi though, I wouldn't get my hopes up. Unless we get crazy semi clone characters that take aspects from more than one character at once, I wouldn't expect him. He'd probably end up as a Luigi semi clone with lanky propositions and Wario like wackiness, maybe even the Forward Smash of Peach cause it fits, and a tennis racket and ball combination for Neutral Special. By now, I'd enjoy such a character, but don't think he's likely at all.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Hopeful list. And I say this as a Isaac supporter. Bandana Dee is the most likely out of all you named. However I could see Isaac, Shadow Ribbon Girl and Grima happening, the last three as Echoes or Koopaling like alternatives to Sonic, Min Min and Robin.

The sad part is Bandana Dee isn't even the Kirby rep I want most.

sad Susie noises

I agree that he's likely, though. As well as your theory on a Grima alt/echo of Robin. Though it's not the style of Grima I would WANT (which y'all know by now). And like I've said before, I'd be MORE than fine with Ribbon just being a Min Min alt/echo, I just REALLY want her regardless of her character style.

And I mostly view Waluigi as likely due to his VERY long-running demand as a new fighter, it's been going for years. Though I wouldn't call it a 100% lock (no character really is...beyond a new FE character ) I'm pretty convinced he's got the best chance he's had in a long time.

Feel free to mock me if I'm wrong, though.

 

[chocolatejr9]

So I recently beat the Klonoa games thanks to the rerelease, and... MAN. I already wanted him in Smash, but now I want him even more.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The sad part is Bandana Dee isn't even the Kirby rep I want most.

sad Susie noises

I agree that he's likely, though. As well as your theory on a Grima alt/echo of Robin. Though it's not the style of Grima I would WANT (which y'all know by now). And like I've said before, I'd be MORE than fine with Ribbon just being a Min Min alt/echo, I just REALLY want her regardless of her character style.

And I mostly view Waluigi as likely due to his VERY long-running demand as a new fighter, it's been going for years. Though I wouldn't call it a 100% lock (no character really is...beyond a new FE character ) I'm pretty convinced he's got the best chance he's had in a long time.

Feel free to mock me if I'm wrong, though.

It isn't us that's mocking Waluigi, honestly that part is all on Sakurai. I can't think of a character that's more disrespected than him, hence I don't think he's all that likely even if highly requested. It also doesn't help that Mario has plentiful of other picks.

I mean, a Piranha Plant made it before Waluigi , but also (Captain) Toad, Pauline, Paper Mario, you name it.

Then there's also Geno, he's also requested a lot and for a very long time. Doesn't mean I think he's anywhere near likely.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

On another subject, I wonder what the next Adventure Mode will be like, if there is any.

If it's more akin to World of Light than Subspace, if Kirby's not the protagonist again I'd like one of these:

• Mario: Well, duh
• Link: Well, duh x2
• Samus: Due to spoilery story stuff from Metroid Dread, if an intergalactic threat or something is involved in the next story, I think Samus would be a good choice to start the fight against him
• Pikachu: Well, duh x3
• Pit: I still feel like he's slept on in terms of Nintendo character power levels, and it'd make for a great story about him fighting to free Lady Palutena and all creatures living and breathing Uprising-style. Especially since he's pretty much Sakurai's own baby now.
• Corrin: I feel like he'd be a great underdog. He's widely hated by many Smash fans and often called out as a "wasted slot". Seeing him prove himself to be a true hero and an underdog among Smash's huge roster would be amazing to see.
• Sora: If he stays, anyway. With his role in Kingdom Hearts he'd fit perfectly in the hero role

But really, I'd much rather be allowed to choose who I can start with than be saddled with one and be forced to travel far and wide and fight obnoxious Spirits to unlock my favorites

 

[fogbadge]

i feel that the more characters are passed over the more it seems likely that sakurai just isn't bothered with them. toad has been passed over 4 times and the others 3 - 2 times. there comes a point where it feels like they just don't work for sakurai for what ever reason

 

[Laniv]

i feel that the more characters are passed over the more it seems likely that sakurai just isn't bothered with them. toad has been passed over 4 times and the others 3 - 2 times. there comes a point where it feels like they just don't work for sakurai for what ever reason

Hey, if Ridley and K. Rool can get passed over twice and make it, nothing's stopping Toad... provided his fans come out in support of him.

 

[fogbadge]

Hey, if Ridley and K. Rool can get passed over twice and make it, nothing's stopping Toad... provided his fans come out in support of him.

what about Isaac and geno? They got tons and still get over looked. We toad fans all know we don’t have the support

 

[chocolatejr9]

what about Isaac and geno? They got tons and still get over looked. We toad fans all know we don’t have the support

TBF, those two aren't the best examples: Isaac is from a series that we're still not sure if Nintendo wants to bring back or not, and I don't think I need to remind everybody what Geno has going against him. True, Toad isn't as popular as them, but he'd be a LOT easier to justify going through the effort of adding. Really, what you guys need is a way to get the popularity ball rolling: once it reaches a point where Nintendo can't help but notice, I'm sure they'll do something about it.

 

[Opossum]

what about Isaac and geno? They got tons and still get over looked. We toad fans all know we don’t have the support

I mean it's pretty clear by this point that Geno's own issues, and very unique issues at that, are the main thing keeping him out. No matter how much demand he has and how much Sakurai thinks he'd be cool, he's still a relatively unimportant one off character from a single Mario spin off game from 26 years ago, whose usage is determined by two different companies who would each likely much rather have almost anyone else instead.

Meanwhile with Isaac, that's just a matter of being out-prioritized. Base game newcomer slots were at a premium this time. Ridley and K. Rool were much more popular among Smash fans than Isaac was, Inkling and Isabelle are hugely popular and important in a general sense, Chrom and Dark Samus got in as Echo Fighters which wouldn't work for Isaac, Incineroar got the token Pokémon slot while Piranha Plant took the surprise character slot, and Simon (alongside Richter and Ken as echoes) gave the base game a popularly requested newcomer from a third party company.

I absolutely believe that had Ultimate's base game had a larger newcomer count, Isaac would've been among them, perhaps alongside other Ballot era fan favorites that became Assist Trophies this time, like Krystal or Shovel Knight. The team absolutely realized that he was popular. He's one of only two Assist Trophies to have been brought back after previously having been cut...and the other is Gray Fox, who was obviously tied to Snake.

To me, that screams "we know he's a popular request, but he was simply out-prioritized, so here's his Assist Trophy back as a consolation prize, as well as a Mii costume and one of the largest spirit selections for a fighterless franchise."

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah I do agree that Isaac probably would of been more likely to be playable if Ultimate was somehow able to include more newcomers in the base game.

It's just, well, Isaac wasn't getting in over , and he wasn't going to be made DLC where the only first parties that have a chance are contemporary ones like .

 

[CannonStreak]

About Geno, while I would hate to fanboy around...

I think that while Geno was not an important a character in the one game he appeared in, he was still wanted by Sakurai for a time. I'd say this would be a good enough thing to have a character considered. Not the sole thing, but still. Now, I am pretty sure Sakurai has played favorites and wanted them in before, like Meta Knight (even though he was from the series Sakurai created, but still was a favorite nonetheless) and maybe some others Sakurai liked. Not to mention Super Mario RPG was a successful game. Maybe not super successful for reasons like it being released near the end of the lifetime of the SNES, but even back then, I am sure Geno was a well liked character for those who played it, or saw him in a Youtube video of a play through of the game. Anyway, I am pretty sure being an unimportant character in an obscure game does not make a character ineligible for a spot to be playable in Smash. I mean, old characters like Duck Hunt (though that was a Nintendo character, Super Mario RPG had characters from Nintendo that were alongside characters made by Square, now called Square Enix, so there is that), and though there may not be an old third party character like Geno being playable in a Smash game; let alone one that did not have a starring role or had much importance in the game(s) they were in, I still think Sakurai can make the impossible happen like he did with seemingly impossible characters like Cloud, a Tekken character, Banjo and Kazooie (who were also old characters) and others. I don't think Geno should be considered ineligible just because of the kind of character he is.

After all, rules, in this case, fanmade rules are meant to be broken.

 

[SPEN18]

About Geno, while I would hate to fanboy around...

I think that while Geno was not an important a character in the one game he appeared in, he was still wanted by Sakurai for a time. I'd say this would be a good enough thing to have a character considered. Not the sole thing, but still. Now, I am pretty sure Sakurai has played favorites and wanted them in before, like Meta Knight (even though he was from the series Sakurai created, but still was a favorite nonetheless) and maybe some others Sakurai liked. Not to mention Super Mario RPG was a successful game. Maybe not super successful for reasons like it being released near the end of the lifetime of the SNES, but even back then, I am sure Geno was a well liked character for those who played it, or saw him in a Youtube video of a play through of the game. Anyway, I am pretty sure being an unimportant character in an obscure game does not make a character ineligible for a spot to be playable in Smash. I mean, old characters like Duck Hunt (though that was a Nintendo character, Super Mario RPG had characters from Nintendo that were alongside characters made by Square, now called Square Enix, so there is that), and though there may not be an old third party character like Geno being playable in a Smash game; let alone one that did not have a starring role or had much importance in the game(s) they were in, I still think Sakurai can make the impossible happen like he did with seemingly impossible characters like Cloud, a Tekken character, Banjo and Kazooie (who were also old characters) and others. I don't think Geno should be considered ineligible just because of the kind of character he is.

After all, rules, in this case, fanmade rules are meant to be broken.

afaik nobody here was arguing that Geno is ineligible. But as far as I can tell, he does have the most things going against him out of all the characters whose main route to getting in would be via fan demand.

 

[CannonStreak]

afaik nobody here was arguing that Geno is ineligible. But as far as I can tell, he does have the most things going against him out of all the characters whose main route to getting in would be via fan demand.

I was just saying the ineligible part just in case.

Still, I am not trying to defend Geno here, believe it or not, but I still don't think a character having any number of things against them would make them less likely or less considered or whatever. I still think any character could get in regardless of what is against them and what may seem to hinder their chances.

 

[dream1ng]

About Geno, while I would hate to fanboy around...

I think that while Geno was not an important a character in the one game he appeared in, he was still wanted by Sakurai for a time. I'd say this would be a good enough thing to have a character considered. Not the sole thing, but still. Now, I am pretty sure Sakurai has played favorites and wanted them in before, like Meta Knight (even though he was from the series Sakurai created, but still was a favorite nonetheless) and maybe some others Sakurai liked. Not to mention Super Mario RPG was a successful game. Maybe not super successful for reasons like it being released near the end of the lifetime of the SNES, but even back then, I am sure Geno was a well liked character for those who played it, or saw him in a Youtube video of a play through of the game. Anyway, I am pretty sure being an unimportant character in an obscure game does not make a character ineligible for a spot to be playable in Smash. I mean, old characters like Duck Hunt (though that was a Nintendo character, Super Mario RPG had characters from Nintendo that were alongside characters made by Square, now called Square Enix, so there is that), and though there may not be an old third party character like Geno being playable in a Smash game; let alone one that did not have a starring role or had much importance in the game(s) they were in, I still think Sakurai can make the impossible happen like he did with seemingly impossible characters like Cloud, a Tekken character, Banjo and Kazooie (who were also old characters) and others. I don't think Geno should be considered ineligible just because of the kind of character he is.

After all, rules, in this case, fanmade rules are meant to be broken.

• People keep saying Sakurai wanted him, but despite that, there have been four different rounds of inclusion since Square got on board, and so far we've received four other SE characters. Sakurai clearly doesn't want him enough to make him a priority.
• Meta-Knight wasn't playing favorites, he was a demanded major character from a big first-party series. Sakurai even had a quote where he worried adding two Kirby characters in the same game would lead to people thinking he was playing favorites. Clearly his fears were founded.
• SMRPG may have been successful, but in the pantheon of Mario games, by comparison, it really wasn't that successful. Certainly not successful enough that over 25 years later, its success is somehow notable.
• Duck Hunt is an old game, not an obscure game. It sold over 25 million copies and everyone knew that stupid dog.
• "Sakurai can make the impossible happen" isn't a point that helps any character, because it can be used for every character. Also, no one is saying Geno is impossible.
• It should be self-evident why Cloud, Kazuya and, yes, Banjo are not in Geno's situation.
• I don't know which rules you're talking about, but all of the points working against Geno aren't "rules", they're just factors that make him much less likely than he's often presented as. So invoking "fanrules" here doesn't really make sense.

 

[CannonStreak]

• People keep saying Sakurai wanted him, but despite that, there have been four different rounds of inclusion since Square got on board, and so far we've received four other SE characters. Sakurai clearly doesn't want him enough to make him a priority.
• Meta-Knight wasn't playing favorites, he was a demanded major character from a big first-party series. Sakurai even had a quote where he worried adding two Kirby characters in the same game would lead to people thinking he was playing favorites. Clearly his fears were founded.
• SMRPG may have been successful, but in the pantheon of Mario games, by comparison, it really wasn't that successful. Certainly not successful enough that over 25 years later, its success is somehow notable.
• Duck Hunt is an old game, not an obscure game. It sold over 25 million copies and everyone knew that stupid dog.
• "Sakurai can make the impossible happen" isn't a point that helps any character, because it can be used for every character. Also, no one is saying Geno is impossible.
• It should be self-evident why Cloud, Kazuya and, yes, Banjo are not in Geno's situation.
• I don't know which rules you're talking about, but all of the points working against Geno aren't "rules", they're just factors that make him much less likely than he's often presented as. So invoking "fanrules" here doesn't really make sense.

1. I am aware of that. I probably should have said that. Still, Geno has fans, whether Super Mario RPG was played by them or not. I am sure that enough fan demand could change Sakurai's mind, especially if they are heard enough.

2. Yeah, I am aware Meta Knight was a bad example, but I still think there are some, if few that Sakurai plays favorites on. Regardless, I did say Sakurai liked Geno for a time. Key word, time, if what people say were true. Regardless, I was not saying playing favorites gets a character in alone, as there are other examples. Even if he does not play favorites, he does seem to like certain characters at the least. Maybe favorites was the wrong word, and wanting a character does change, meaning Sakurai can change his mind, but wheter Sakurai liked Geno or not, I think there is a reason, which I am unsure of, that hype for Geno started in the first place.

3. I am sure I did address that Super Mario RPG was not super successful, which covers what you were talking about.

4. Okay, again, bad example. Maybe I should have said Ice Climbers instead before Melee if that even counts? Still, my point is, there should be obscure games that have made it into Smash in terms of playable characters.

5. I was not really saying Sakurai doing that helped Geno's case. I am just saying that because people have been proven wrong about characters before.

6. I am aware of that, but I don't think Geno's situation is that bad. Plus, I was not talking about the reasons those three characters got in compared to Geno, but rather, again, that people were wrong when they thought they could not get in.

7. Regardless, I don't think those factors would weigh Geno down that much. I mean, he did get a Mii Costume in the fourth Smash game, and I believe it was said he was considered by then before Cloud. Plus, I don't think the "factors" working against Geno hold him down as much as characters like Captain Syrup from Wario Land and Wart from Super Mario USA, characters I both want as playable in a Smash game. I know they are probably in different circumstances than Geno, but fan rules or not, I don't think Geno would be less likely than any other character just because of factors against him. I believe anything is possible, no matter how likely. I don't think it is fair to treat Geno differently from any other character for any reason, regardless of circumstances. I have yet to see Sakurai make it clear that non-starring characters from obscure games can't get into Smash.

Now, I am not directly defending Geno here, so take this as me defending any character that has not get into Smash, with Geno being used as an example. But in regards to Geno, even if I was wrong, I don't think Geno has less of a chance than, say, King K. Rool, despite their differences in terms of reasons for getting in. I am aware that Geno may have fan demand only in terms of helping him get in possibly, but I don't think people are being that fair to him.

Believe me, I am in no hurry to see Geno in Smash as a playable, but I think that there are characters who are treated unfairly just because of "factors".

 

[dream1ng]

1. I am aware of that. I probably should have said that. Still, Geno has fans, whether Super Mario RPG was played by them or not. I am sure that enough fan demand could change Sakurai's mind, especially if they are heard enough.

Well yeah, Geno's one saving grace is demand. But Geno fans have been saying that second sentence for like fifteen years now. I'm not saying people should just give up, but the longer without an inclusion, the more salience the opposing factors seem to have.

2. Yeah, I am aware Meta Knight was a bad example, but I still think there are some, if few that Sakurai plays favorites on. Regardless, I did say Sakurai liked Geno for a time. Key word, time, if what people say were true. Regardless, I was not saying playing favorites gets a character in alone, as there are other examples. Even if he does not play favorites, he does seem to like certain characters at the least. Maybe favorites was the wrong word, and wanting a character does change, meaning Sakurai can change his mind, but wheter Sakurai liked Geno or not, I think there is a reason, which I am unsure of, that hype for Geno started in the first place.

Again, this is the same stuff people have been saying as Square character over Square character gets in before Geno. You can keep holding out for the tide to turn, or you can consider that what Sakurai considered for Brawl may not still be pertinent all these years later.

3. I am sure I did address that Super Mario RPG was not super successful, which covers what you were talking about.

But at that point it's not worth raising then. A successful but not super successful Mario game from five consoles ago? Ok...

4. Okay, again, bad example. Maybe I should have said Ice Climbers instead before Melee if that even counts? Still, my point is, there should be obscure games that have made it into Smash in terms of playable characters.

I guess that's better than Duck Hunt, but it's still not going to help Geno, because the ICs were added deliberately to fill a spot allocated for a classic NES character. Geno can't benefit from a niche he doesn't fit and no longer exists anyway.

5. I was not really saying Sakurai doing that helped Geno's case. I am just saying that because people have been proven wrong about characters before.

This is such a blanket statement though that it's virtually useless as an argument. Yeah, people have been proven wrong about characters before. Those expecting Geno continue to be proven wrong, as with many other potential characters.

6. I am aware of that, but I don't think Geno's situation is that bad. Plus, I was not talking about the reasons those three characters got in compared to Geno, but rather, again, that people were wrong when they thought they could not get in.

But raising those characters doesn't at all get to the issues with Geno's possible inclusion, because they didn't suffer the same range of problems that he does. So if the only link is that they were also, at some point, unexpected, that doesn't help Geno's case any more than it does hundreds of other unexpected characters. It's counterproductive because it shows how Geno is actually not at all special in this regard.

7. Regardless, I don't think those factors would weigh Geno down that much. I mean, he did get a Mii Costume in the fourth Smash game, and I believe it was said he was considered by then before Cloud.

Yes, the costume is the recurring consolation prize for not being playable. And Sakurai wanted to include Geno in Brawl. Him being considered any later than that is conjecture. But even if he was, he clearly continues to get out-prioritized by much bigger characters from his company. Of which many still exist.

Plus, I don't think the "factors" working against Geno hold him down as much as characters like Captain Syrup from Wario Land and Wart from Super Mario USA, characters I both want as playable in a Smash game.

I think they do, because if either Captain Syrup or Wart were as popular as Geno, we'd probably have received them, since they aren't held down by being third-party.

I know they are probably in different circumstances than Geno, but fan rules or not, I don't think Geno would be less likely than any other character just because of factors against him.

By this logic every single character is on equal footing, which makes no sense and just clearly isn't true.

I believe anything is possible, no matter how likely.

You have to stop fighting the strawman that people are saying Geno is impossible.

I don't think it is fair to treat Geno differently from any other character for any reason, regardless of circumstances.

Circumstances are a fantastic reason to treat characters differently than each other in terms of expectation. Circumstances is what got a character like Min Min included over a character like Isaac, because Min Min came from a current game, while Isaac's was old.

I have yet to see Sakurai make it clear that non-starring characters from obscure games can't get into Smash.

Look at the roster, then.

Now, I am not directly defending Geno here, so take this as me defending any character that has not get into Smash, with Geno being used as an example. But in regards to Geno, even if I was wrong, I don't think Geno has less of a chance than, say, King K. Rool, despite their differences in terms of reasons for getting in. I am aware that Geno may have fan demand only in terms of helping him get in possibly, but I don't think people are being that fair to him.

By your logic Tamagon from Devil World also doesn't have less than a chance than Geno because apparently factors and circumstance no longer matter.

But you're still trying to argue for Geno on the basis of perceived positive factors, so clearly they do matter to you.

Believe me, I am in no hurry to see Geno in Smash as a playable, but I think that there are characters who are treated unfairly just because of "factors".

I like how you're putting factors in quotation marks like they somehow don't matter and Sakurai draws characters out of a ****ing hat.

 

[CannonStreak]

This is such a blanket statement though that it's virtually useless as an argument. Yeah, people have been proven wrong about characters before. Those expecting Geno continue to be proven wrong, as with many other potential characters.

How is it useless? Not like I was trying to argue anyway, I was just saying.

But raising those characters doesn't at all get to the issues with Geno's possible inclusion, because they didn't suffer the same range of problems that he does. So if the only link is that they were also, at some point, unexpected, that doesn't help Geno's case any more than it does hundreds of other unexpected characters. It's counterproductive because it shows how Geno is actually not at all special in this regard.

I believe I did not say they did. Still, I think Geno's problems are being overstated or exaggerated.

Yes, the costume is the recurring consolation prize for not being playable. And Sakurai wanted to include Geno in Brawl. Him being considered any later than that is conjecture. But even if he was, he clearly continues to get out-prioritized by much bigger characters from his company. Of which many still exist.

Look, I am not in a hurry to see Geno, and I do think he is less likely now compared to Brawl's time. Still, I would not saying that out-prioritized makes it so that a character would not get in. Less likely to get in? Maybe, but I can imagine other characters not as important like Geno still getting in from Square Enix.

I think they do, because if either Captain Syrup or Wart were as popular as Geno, we'd probably have received them, since they aren't held down by being third-party.

As little as this may mean, I did say that Super Mario RPG was technically a collaboration between a first party and third party company. Geno is still not the most important character, yes, but that doesn't mean he is the least important in the story either. Regardless, I do think the collaboration between first and third party companies, even if it is not as much as characters like Syrup or Wart, may have at least some merit.

By this logic every single character is on equal footing, which makes no sense and just clearly isn't true.

They are, as in they are equally possible. Some are just more likely as others, but I think the reason Geno's chances of getting in are slimmer, possibly compared to anyone else, is a bit, not completely, but a bit exaggerated.

You have to stop fighting the strawman that people are saying Geno is impossible.

I am pretty sure I am not. I am pretty sure that was not the point I was trying to focus on, anyway.

Circumstances are a fantastic reason to treat characters differently than each other in terms of expectation. Circumstances is what got a character like Min Min included over a character like Isaac, because Min Min came from a current game, while Isaac's was old.

And yet expectations can still be wrong in the end.

Look at the roster, then.

How is that even supposed to mean anything? Say what you will on this, but even that could change.

By your logic Tamagon from Devil World also doesn't have less than a chance than Geno because apparently factors and circumstance no longer matter.

No, I am just saying people are not being fair to him. That is all. There is using logic to determine if a character can get in, and there is using that logic to try and put down a character's chances of being playable and the fans who want them in the game. Factor wise, I would say Tamagon is nothing like Geno, nor does he have an equal chance as Geno.

But you're still trying to argue for Geno on the basis of perceived positive factors, so clearly they do matter to you.

I am just trying to say that I think Geno's chances are being downplayed and exaggerated in a negative way, as well as saying that for any possible other character that may just fit the bill. I am in no hurry to see Geno, but anything can happen. Saying that is a strawman or whatever makes me think you are trying to avoid that. I was just stating my opinion. I may have to back it up, but I was never trying to argue.

I like how you're putting factors in quotation marks like they somehow don't matter and Sakurai draws characters out of a ****ing hat.

If that is how it appears to you, then I don't know what to tell you. I am pretty sure I meant how people interpret the factors rather than the factors themselves or them actually mattering. I know the importance of factors, but I feel like Geno's case is being treated unfairly with them as an excuse to do so.

Now if you excuse me, I have to go back to sleep.

 

[fogbadge]

TBF, those two aren't the best examples: Isaac is from a series that we're still not sure if Nintendo wants to bring back or not, and I don't think I need to remind everybody what Geno has going against him. True, Toad isn't as popular as them, but he'd be a LOT easier to justify going through the effort of adding. Really, what you guys need is a way to get the popularity ball rolling: once it reaches a point where Nintendo can't help but notice, I'm sure they'll do something about it.

perhaps not but we didn't know if they wanted to bring k.rool back. we still don't know if they do. and we toad fans have tried to get the popularity ball rolling but no matter how many supporters we picked up it never gets going. probably cause a lot of them have other characters they want more.

I mean it's pretty clear by this point that Geno's own issues, and very unique issues at that, are the main thing keeping him out. No matter how much demand he has and how much Sakurai thinks he'd be cool, he's still a relatively unimportant one off character from a single Mario spin off game from 26 years ago, whose usage is determined by two different companies who would each likely much rather have almost anyone else instead.

Meanwhile with Isaac, that's just a matter of being out-prioritized. Base game newcomer slots were at a premium this time. Ridley and K. Rool were much more popular among Smash fans than Isaac was, Inkling and Isabelle are hugely popular and important in a general sense, Chrom and Dark Samus got in as Echo Fighters which wouldn't work for Isaac, Incineroar got the token Pokémon slot while Piranha Plant took the surprise character slot, and Simon (alongside Richter and Ken as echoes) gave the base game a popularly requested newcomer from a third party company.

I absolutely believe that had Ultimate's base game had a larger newcomer count, Isaac would've been among them, perhaps alongside other Ballot era fan favorites that became Assist Trophies this time, like Krystal or Shovel Knight. The team absolutely realized that he was popular. He's one of only two Assist Trophies to have been brought back after previously having been cut...and the other is Gray Fox, who was obviously tied to Snake.

To me, that screams "we know he's a popular request, but he was simply out-prioritized, so here's his Assist Trophy back as a consolation prize, as well as a Mii costume and one of the largest spirit selections for a fighterless franchise."

that's what i said at the start of this. i feel that characters who are passed over for however many games clearly have other issues. such as geno

perhaps he would have been but the thing is though they acknowledged the popularity of a number of characters not just isaac. i maintain that popularity alone isn't enough

 

[CannonStreak]

perhaps not but we didn't know if they wanted to bring k.rool back. we still don't know if they do. and we toad fans have tried to get the popularity ball rolling but no matter how many supporters we picked up it never gets going. probably cause a lot of them have other characters they want more.



that's what i said at the start of this. i feel that characters who are passed over for however many games clearly have other issues. such as geno

perhaps he would have been but the thing is though they acknowledged the popularity of a number of characters not just isaac. i maintain that popularity alone isn't enough

Before I go back to bed, I would like to say, would any character with the same case as Geno have that much against them be not worthy or whatever you call it in terms of getting in Smash?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to argue, and I know for sure Geno is in one of those difficult, for a lack of a better word, cases. He does have a good number of things against him, but I do think people do see what characters like Geno have against them differently, positive and negative. I just wanted to ask and say all this if that is okay.

 

[fogbadge]

Before I go back to bed, I would like to say, would any character with the same case as Geno have that much against them be not worthy or whatever you call it in terms of getting in Smash?

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to argue, and I know for sure Geno is in one of those difficult, for a lack of a better word, cases. He does have a good number of things against him, but I do think people do see what characters like Geno have against them differently, positive and negative. I just wanted to ask and say all this if that is okay.

hmm I’m not sure there are any other characters in the same position. Apart from the other smrpg characters

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There is one main issue that I think is standing in Geno's way that may be too insurmountable for him to conquer.

His popularity within his own series. The Super Mario series.

Every character in Smash with some notable exceptions (and I'll get to that) is among the most popular within that franchise. If you ask a fan of any franchise what their top ten favorite characters from that franchise are, chances are they'll look pretty similar to the characters in Smash.

So let's try an experiment. Let's go think about each franchise and ask ourselves if we can believe these characters would appear on an average top ten list for fans of that franchise.

Oh and for this thought experiment, I'll be counting alternate versions of the same character as the same character. For example, Dr. Mario will be counted the same as Mario and Zero Suit Samus will be counted the same as Samus.

I've thought long and hard about this and I think every franchise follows this trend with the exception of four.

Super Mario
Pokemon
Fire Emblem
Dragon Quest (maybe?)

Three of these franchises have some major things in common. Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Dragon Quest are old longstanding JRPGs with rotating casts and hundreds if not thousands of characters. You ask people for their top ten and you're going to get a lot of different lists. It's hard to gauge who the most popular characters are with franchises like this and while popularity polls do exist, they fluctuate. When you have gigantic casts, they will fluctuate a lot. The best you can do is pick characters that generally stay near the top. And for what it's worth, the characters Smash chose for these three franchises tend to do just that. (Final Fantasy would be here, if VII and its characters didn't dominate the franchise like they do.)

And that just leaves Super Mario, Geno's own franchise. Isn't that a good thing? Well no. Not exactly.

Mario(Doc), Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Bowser, Rosalina and Bowser Jr. could believably fit into people's top tens. Mario has a fairly static cast and these guys appear constantly in main games and spin offs. Games like Mario Kart or Mario Sports games have them as essential characters and it's considered bizarre when they aren't included. Heck, when Daisy wasn't in the launch of the new Strikers game, people lost their minds. The only Mario character included who doesn't fit with our thought experiment is Pirahna Plant. And the plant was chosen deliberately because people wouldn't expect him. He's the exception that proves the rule.

So where is Geno? Well... I can't honestly say that your average Mario fan would rank him in their top ten characters. I can believe they'd put Waluigi or Toad or heck, even Shy Guy, Goomba or Koopa in their lists. But not Geno. Only the most hardcore of the hardcore would put him in their lists.

Even if we limit things to Mario RPGs, Geno still has a lot of competition. He has to compete with Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi characters. I can see Starlow, Fawful, Vivian, Dimentio and the like pushing him out of the top ten.

So, if Geno isn't a big name in his own franchise, why include him in the conversation at all. Well he is a very popular request for Smash. We know he does numbers in all of our fan polls.

But the more time goes on, the more I think that if Nintendo wanted a Mario character that would appease Smash fans, why not pick someone that would also appeal to the average Mario fan too? Waluigi is right there.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I mean it's pretty clear by this point that Geno's own issues, and very unique issues at that, are the main thing keeping him out. No matter how much demand he has and how much Sakurai thinks he'd be cool, he's still a relatively unimportant one off character from a single Mario spin off game from 26 years ago, whose usage is determined by two different companies who would each likely much rather have almost anyone else instead.

Meanwhile with Isaac, that's just a matter of being out-prioritized. Base game newcomer slots were at a premium this time. Ridley and K. Rool were much more popular among Smash fans than Isaac was, Inkling and Isabelle are hugely popular and important in a general sense, Chrom and Dark Samus got in as Echo Fighters which wouldn't work for Isaac, Incineroar got the token Pokémon slot while Piranha Plant took the surprise character slot, and Simon (alongside Richter and Ken as echoes) gave the base game a popularly requested newcomer from a third party company.

I absolutely believe that had Ultimate's base game had a larger newcomer count, Isaac would've been among them, perhaps alongside other Ballot era fan favorites that became Assist Trophies this time, like Krystal or Shovel Knight. The team absolutely realized that he was popular. He's one of only two Assist Trophies to have been brought back after previously having been cut...and the other is Gray Fox, who was obviously tied to Snake.

To me, that screams "we know he's a popular request, but he was simply out-prioritized, so here's his Assist Trophy back as a consolation prize, as well as a Mii costume and one of the largest spirit selections for a fighterless franchise."

I do believe so too. He might have at one point been considered, but simply out prioritized by all other newcomers and for good reasons. This popularity he has might make him a potential candidate for the next Smash, but I could easily see him being overlooked again. Especially since I don't think there's much of a future for Golden Sun.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean it's pretty clear by this point that Geno's own issues, and very unique issues at that, are the main thing keeping him out. No matter how much demand he has and how much Sakurai thinks he'd be cool, he's still a relatively unimportant one off character from a single Mario spin off game from 26 years ago, whose usage is determined by two different companies who would each likely much rather have almost anyone else instead.

Meanwhile with Isaac, that's just a matter of being out-prioritized. Base game newcomer slots were at a premium this time. Ridley and K. Rool were much more popular among Smash fans than Isaac was, Inkling and Isabelle are hugely popular and important in a general sense, Chrom and Dark Samus got in as Echo Fighters which wouldn't work for Isaac, Incineroar got the token Pokémon slot while Piranha Plant took the surprise character slot, and Simon (alongside Richter and Ken as echoes) gave the base game a popularly requested newcomer from a third party company.

I absolutely believe that had Ultimate's base game had a larger newcomer count, Isaac would've been among them, perhaps alongside other Ballot era fan favorites that became Assist Trophies this time, like Krystal or Shovel Knight. The team absolutely realized that he was popular. He's one of only two Assist Trophies to have been brought back after previously having been cut...and the other is Gray Fox, who was obviously tied to Snake.

To me, that screams "we know he's a popular request, but he was simply out-prioritized, so here's his Assist Trophy back as a consolation prize, as well as a Mii costume and one of the largest spirit selections for a fighterless franchise."

So here's the question.

With the idea that Isaac was likely out prioritized for Ultimate in mind, what do you think his chances are for a new game?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The big x factor in all this is whether or not the next Smash will have a different person overseeing it than Sakurai. Yes obviously its Nintendo's call on a lot of characters, but the latter did have a great deal of influence with some selections and its difficult to believe that if there were certain figures (first party specifically) he wanted to have that Nintendo would not at least consider it.

That might be major thing that shapes the next roster, especially with certain first party standouts that have yet to make it like a Bandana Dee, whom a new director could look at as an easy to choice to excite the Japanese fandom and take advantage of the new fan boom after Forgotten Land.

 

[Diddy Kong]

There is one main issue that I think is standing in Geno's way that may be too insurmountable for him to conquer.

His popularity within his own series. The Super Mario series.

Every character in Smash with some notable exceptions (and I'll get to that) is among the most popular within that franchise. If you ask a fan of any franchise what their top ten favorite characters from that franchise are, chances are they'll look pretty similar to the characters in Smash.

So let's try an experiment. Let's go think about each franchise and ask ourselves if we can believe these characters would appear on an average top ten list for fans of that franchise.

Oh and for this thought experiment, I'll be counting alternate versions of the same character as the same character. For example, Dr. Mario will be counted the same as Mario and Zero Suit Samus will be counted the same as Samus.

I've thought long and hard about this and I think every franchise follows this trend with the exception of four.

Super Mario
Pokemon
Fire Emblem
Dragon Quest (maybe?)

Three of these franchises have some major things in common. Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Dragon Quest are old longstanding JRPGs with rotating casts and hundreds if not thousands of characters. You ask people for their top ten and you're going to get a lot of different lists. It's hard to gauge who the most popular characters are with franchises like this and while popularity polls do exist, they fluctuate. When you have gigantic casts, they will fluctuate a lot. The best you can do is pick characters that generally stay near the top. And for what it's worth, the characters Smash chose for these three franchises tend to do just that. (Final Fantasy would be here, if VII and its characters didn't dominate the franchise like they do.)

And that just leaves Super Mario, Geno's own franchise. Isn't that a good thing? Well no. Not exactly.

Mario(Doc), Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Bowser, Rosalina and Bowser Jr. could believably fit into people's top tens. Mario has a fairly static cast and these guys appear constantly in main games and spin offs. Games like Mario Kart or Mario Sports games have them as essential characters and it's considered bizarre when they aren't included. Heck, when Daisy wasn't in the launch of the new Strikers game, people lost their minds. The only Mario character included who doesn't fit with our thought experiment is Pirahna Plant. And the plant was chosen deliberately because people wouldn't expect him. He's the exception that proves the rule.

So where is Geno? Well... I can't honestly say that your average Mario fan would rank him in their top ten characters. I can believe they'd put Waluigi or Toad or heck, even Shy Guy, Goomba or Koopa in their lists. But not Geno. Only the most hardcore of the hardcore would put him in their lists.

Even if we limit things to Mario RPGs, Geno still has a lot of competition. He has to compete with Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi characters. I can see Starlow, Fawful, Vivian, Dimentio and the like pushing him out of the top ten.

So, if Geno isn't a big name in his own franchise, why include him in the conversation at all. Well he is a very popular request for Smash. We know he does numbers in all of our fan polls.

But the more time goes on, the more I think that if Nintendo wanted a Mario character that would appease Smash fans, why not pick someone that would also appeal to the average Mario fan too? Waluigi is right there.

Geno is popular with internet forum people as we, Gamefaqs, Reddit you name it, but has not a huge overall "casual" following. Your comparison to Waluigi is good in this sense, that's a character who's definitely popular with a more casual crowd as he appears in games appealing to that crowd.

Geno fans honestly should've been satisfied with the Mij Gunner costume and call it a day, it's honestly a very fitting moveset for Geno, it fits way better than Mii Costumes of other popular requested characters at least. SMRPG might have a decent cult following, but Geno isn't even it's main character, and the game hardly received special attention in the past. I don't think there has been an official VC release for it? Not on the Switch at least. Both Nintendo and Square overlook it , and it's especially worrisome for the fans of SMRPG since the Switch has many old classic Square RPG remakes.

He's also definitely not winning the polls in the popularity department of Mario characters. That's a major case against him. There's Toad, Pauline, Waluigi even, Paper Mario and more to consider before Geno. And all make a way better case, and way more sense. Given the new movie appearance they could even opt for Foreman Spike before Geno. That's how obscure the character is, and no obscure in a retro sense, just obscure as in, if it wasn't for his cult following the character would be a Literally Who.

 

[Dinoman96]

On Isaac...if it means anything, Emily Rogers, a pretty reputable Nintendo insider, has made the claim that there are people within Nintendo who do care for Golden Sun and want to bring it back in some way:

Nintendo: "Switch business has exceeded our expectations", plans to expand game development capability by $900m, $2.7bn for theme parks, stores

Reform Factor 5 Nintendo.

famiboards.com

I'll put it this way: Internally, in the last ten years, Nintendo has shown more interest in Golden Sun than people realize.

Nintendo likes Golden Sun. The big thing holding it back is finding the right developer/studio to work on it. Because Camelot has its plate full with Mario sports, and Mario sports makes Nintendo a lot of money.

If were up to me, I think Nintendo should find a studio to re-make Golden Sun 1 and 2. Remakes would be much, much easier to develop than a brand new Golden Sun.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if "not yet finding an ideal internal/external studio to work on it" explains a lot of absences and hibernations of various Nintendo franchises. DK circa 2001-2009 in hindsight has the feel of an IP desparately searching for some sort of consistent developer to give it an identity again.

 

[Diddy Kong]

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if "not yet finding an ideal internal/external studio to work on it" explains a lot of absences and hibernations of various Nintendo franchises. DK circa 2001-2009 in hindsight has the feel of an IP desparately searching for some sort of consistent developer to give it an identity again.

This is also faulty of Nintendo actually. They have the perfect studio for Donkey Kong with Retro Studios, but they're on an impossible mission with Metroid Prime 4 currently. With the perfect engine build in Tropical Freeze, am sure they could've pulled at least ONE solid platformer by now, if not two. Mercury Stream and Ninja Studios could potentially develop Metroid instead.

Anyway that part on Golden Sun is actually great news. I think that the developers of Bravery Default could potentially work on Golden Sun maybe? Maybe ask Square for help too? They could turn it in a sort of graphic style that's used in Octopath Traveler and Triangle Strategy maybe ?

 

[Opossum]

So here's the question.

With the idea that Isaac was likely out prioritized for Ultimate in mind, what do you think his chances are for a new game?

So obviously for this, a few assumptions need to be made. For this answer, I will assume the following:

- The next Smash game comes out, at the earliest, in 2026. I don't see the Switch's successor coming out prior to 2024, and new Smash games tend to be released within the first two years of a console (3DS aside, but that's because it was tied to the Wii U version)

- The next Smash game is a new game and not an enhanced port of Ultimate (the reason these recent "Deluxe versions" exist isn't to build off great games, it's to salvage them from the dumpster fire that was the Wii U...the Switch is an actual success, so these won't be as common)

- The next game will have a significant amount of cuts as Everyone is Here isn't sustainable in the slightest. Therefore, there will likely also be a more normal newcomer count.

- A Golden Sun remake or entirely new game is not announced by the time of the next Smash game's release. This is to assume Isaac's situation remains as it is now.



With those assumptions in play, I do think Isaac has a good shot, so long as his popularity among the game's fanbase does not dwindle. The italicized is a factor that, in my eyes, really harmed Geno. His popularity waned in the Smash 4 era, where it was the most important for it to not wane. Now of course Geno had other things going on, but this definitely didn't help.

If we assume we'd get about 12-15 newcomers, I think Isaac will very likely be among them. We'll likely get new characters for Pokémon, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade Chronicles, Splatoon, and likely Animal Crossing as well, Waluigi will also likely make it in, if ARMS gets a sequel we may get Spring Man, and we'll likely get Officer Howard and the Ring Fit Trainee as well. That's a total of nine so far, and there will likely be at least two third party newcomers for base as well (for the sake of argument, let's say Ryu Hayabusa and Sans) so that's eleven. That's a ton of potential bases covered already, so throwing in Isaac to appeal to hardcore fans seems feasible. At that point you have a lot of evergreen franchises, new characters in established franchises, and new franchises present, so Isaac as a sort of throwback option makes sense.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

i dunno, surely this hypothetical stage pass would be the lowest budget yet i don't think they could really afford 3rd party licences

The only one they would need is Pacmaze.

 

[CannonStreak]

hmm I’m not sure there are any other characters in the same position. Apart from the other smrpg characters

I meant characters who also don't have a starring role, but are also popular. Question is, how many of them are there? I can't imagine there are many now that you put it that way.

There is one main issue that I think is standing in Geno's way that may be too insurmountable for him to conquer.

His popularity within his own series. The Super Mario series.

Every character in Smash with some notable exceptions (and I'll get to that) is among the most popular within that franchise. If you ask a fan of any franchise what their top ten favorite characters from that franchise are, chances are they'll look pretty similar to the characters in Smash.

So let's try an experiment. Let's go think about each franchise and ask ourselves if we can believe these characters would appear on an average top ten list for fans of that franchise.

Oh and for this thought experiment, I'll be counting alternate versions of the same character as the same character. For example, Dr. Mario will be counted the same as Mario and Zero Suit Samus will be counted the same as Samus.

I've thought long and hard about this and I think every franchise follows this trend with the exception of four.

Super Mario
Pokemon
Fire Emblem
Dragon Quest (maybe?)

Three of these franchises have some major things in common. Pokemon, Fire Emblem and Dragon Quest are old longstanding JRPGs with rotating casts and hundreds if not thousands of characters. You ask people for their top ten and you're going to get a lot of different lists. It's hard to gauge who the most popular characters are with franchises like this and while popularity polls do exist, they fluctuate. When you have gigantic casts, they will fluctuate a lot. The best you can do is pick characters that generally stay near the top. And for what it's worth, the characters Smash chose for these three franchises tend to do just that. (Final Fantasy would be here, if VII and its characters didn't dominate the franchise like they do.)

And that just leaves Super Mario, Geno's own franchise. Isn't that a good thing? Well no. Not exactly.

Mario(Doc), Luigi, Peach, Daisy, Bowser, Rosalina and Bowser Jr. could believably fit into people's top tens. Mario has a fairly static cast and these guys appear constantly in main games and spin offs. Games like Mario Kart or Mario Sports games have them as essential characters and it's considered bizarre when they aren't included. Heck, when Daisy wasn't in the launch of the new Strikers game, people lost their minds. The only Mario character included who doesn't fit with our thought experiment is Pirahna Plant. And the plant was chosen deliberately because people wouldn't expect him. He's the exception that proves the rule.

So where is Geno? Well... I can't honestly say that your average Mario fan would rank him in their top ten characters. I can believe they'd put Waluigi or Toad or heck, even Shy Guy, Goomba or Koopa in their lists. But not Geno. Only the most hardcore of the hardcore would put him in their lists.

Even if we limit things to Mario RPGs, Geno still has a lot of competition. He has to compete with Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi characters. I can see Starlow, Fawful, Vivian, Dimentio and the like pushing him out of the top ten.

So, if Geno isn't a big name in his own franchise, why include him in the conversation at all. Well he is a very popular request for Smash. We know he does numbers in all of our fan polls.

But the more time goes on, the more I think that if Nintendo wanted a Mario character that would appease Smash fans, why not pick someone that would also appeal to the average Mario fan too? Waluigi is right there.

I see what you mean. Still, considering that Super Mario RPG is developed by a third party and that Geno is third party owned, I am not sure if he has to deal with the popularity of other Mario characters owned by a first party company directly.

BUT...I will say this: Considering how Square Enix might as well be a popular company, the above that I said hardly matters. I mean, Square Enix does have a lot of characters, and Geno thus does have some competition there. Heck! I can imagine Balan Wonderworld characters getting in before Geno. Is it wrong to think that? I mean, I was not defending Geno directly, I was just stating an opinion of mine on how the negative aspects of Geno's chances are exaggerated, if not so far that is. I knew there was a chance before Sephiroth was revealed that Geno would not make it in, despite all the "evidence" Geno fans thought would get him in. I tried telling them to hype responsibly, but they would not listen. I only participated in wanting Geno because of my interest in him, and even that goes so far.

But anyway, yeah, Geno does have competition too heavy to ignore. I am sure Sakurai considered Geno for Smash 4 before Cloud was decided, but I wonder if he changed his mind with adding Geno as a playable character in a Smash game since? Either way, if Geno does get in a future Smash game as a playable, I think he will have worked around and sidestepped the issue you mentioned, rather than conquered it, if that means anything.

 

[fogbadge]

I meant characters who also don't have a starring role, but are also popular. Question is, how many of them are there? I can't imagine there are many now that you put it that way.

off the top of my head: waluigi

 

[CannonStreak]

off the top of my head: waluigi

Now that is one character that would get in before Geno.

In terms of such characters, though Geno appeared first in a Mario game, I was thinking about characters that were popular and obscure coming from Square Enix, and there can't be so many of them, if there are any.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Me waiting for threads like Create a Classic Mode Route and Direct a Trailer to get another post so I don't have to double post be like

(I'm just foolin', take your time y'all!)

 

[fogbadge]

Me waiting for threads like Create a Classic Mode Route and Direct a Trailer to get another post so I don't have to double post be like

(I'm just foolin', take your time y'all!)

if there’s a least 24 hours between 2 posts it doesn’t count. Unless it’s changed since that mod told me

 

[CannonStreak]

One more thing I want to say about Geno, if that is okay.

Regardless of what Geno may have against him, based on what characters got in despite being thought impossible, and even if those characters are different from Geno, I do not think using logic to determine if a character will get in or not or their chances of getting in is entirely accurate since we have had surprises in the past. Also, not saying anyone does this or did this, but I don't think using that logic to put down Geno or their fans is fair, especially their fans.

I am mixed on Geno here. That said, I also want to say that there is an important thing to consider here: Inertia. Inertia is the tendency to keep going, in this case with thoughts, until something acts to change that, and like the physical law of inertia, two or more things don't necessarily change together and one of them stays the same where they are when something tries to change both of them. Now, even if Sakurai did want Geno in Brawl, added him as a Mii Costume in Smash 4, and since then maybe decided not to include him as a playable for reasons, the fans did not change their mind with Sakurai at that point, and continued wishing for Geno. It would be difficult to change so many minds who still want Geno at once, even if Sakurai reconsidered. Not saying this as an excuse for Geno to get in, just saying. Just wanted to point something out.

Now, to possibly avert from all this, how do you guys feel about Isaac's chances of becoming playable in the next Smash game?