Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Lenidem]

I'd love Conker. It would be amazing to see Diddy, Banjo and Conker in one game again after so long. Smash is the only possible way it'll ever happen.

But yeah I think his chances aren't too great. The most likely prospects from RARE right now are either Battletoads or a Killer Instinct character, and I think Battletoads are the more likely option out of the two.

Though I would love Conker, my personnal Rare-favorite, after Banjo, would be Joanna Dark. But yeah, her chances are very slim too.

 

[PeridotGX]

Stages are the one thing I’ve been pretty disappointed in with modern Smash titles. I feel like Smash 64 and Melee got them just right but since then they’ve gone too far in one direction or the other either making them too gimmicky or boring Battlefield variants (sometimes both in the case of Mega Man’s stage). My favorite stages are the ones with interesting layouts that feel like you’re actually playing in a part of the stage from the game but where the gimmicks aren’t too distracting to gameplay. I feel like the first two Smash games had a ton of these kinds of stages and there have been a few here and there since then but they seem to be increasingly rare. Every stage being the same floating Battlefield-esque layout kind of breaks the immersion a bit for me, kind of like comparing New Super Mario Bros. stages to Tropical Freeze if that makes sense.

The history of stages in Smash is really interesting to me. Another thing I've noticed is that most stages in 64/Melee are weird smorgasbords of concepts from a series, while later games take them far more literally. There are exceptions, of course (Saffron City and Great Bay VS Midgar and Dracula's Castle), but by and large it holds. Interestingly, Multiversus seems to be closer to the classic stages. I could go on but I'm on my phone so (shrug)

 

[Dinoman96]

Basically every character from Rare (the Microsoft owned ones anyway) have little to no chance anyways because they don't have the one thing that got Banjo & Kazooie in: fan demand.

That being said, I'd still like to see Conker, Perfect Dark, Battletoads, Blast Corps, Jet Force Gemini, etc appear in other roles like spirits, assist trophies and Mii outfits.

 

[Stratos]

I believe that if Nintendo had bought Rare, then Rare characters would have come more easily into the Super Smash Bros. series. Of course this is an opinion.

 

[fogbadge]

I believe that if Nintendo had bought Rare, then Rare characters would have come more easily into the Super Smash Bros. series. Of course this is an opinion.

just think, viva piñata and nuts and bolts would have been on the wii

 

[Dinoman96]

I believe that if Nintendo had bought Rare, then Rare characters would have come more easily into the Super Smash Bros. series. Of course this is an opinion.

Banjo definitely would of been made playable in Brawl. At the very least, once again we'd probably be seeing their other IPs show up as stickers, items, trophies, ATs, music tracks, etc.

Grabbed by the Ghoulies was originally a GCN game before the buyout. There exists a universe where Cooper and possibly other characters from that continue to make cameo appearances in Smash.

just think, viva piñata and nuts and bolts would have been on the wii

Nuts & Bolts barely even ran on Xbox 360 lol, don't see how the Wii would of been able to handle its physics engine and what not.

Me thinks Rare may of been forced to go another direction, honestly they may of been slightly more compelled to try a traditional Banjo game considering they still would of had that audience on Wii.

 

[Gengar84]

Basically every character from Rare (the Microsoft owned ones anyway) have little to no chance anyways because they don't have the one thing that got Banjo & Kazooie in: fan demand.

That being said, I'd still like to see Conker, Perfect Dark, Battletoads, Blast Corps, Jet Force Gemini, etc appear in other roles like spirits, assist trophies and Mii outfits.

I try to do what I can around here to raise awareness and support for RARE’s awesome characters without being too obnoxious about it. I personally feel like several of them deserve a spot in Smash both due to their history with Nintendo but also, they are just fun characters with really fun and original designs and movesets. I won’t speak too much more on the matter because I’m sure a lot of people are sick of me talking about my love for their characters and games by now. I’ll just say that the Battletoads, a KI rep (probably Fulgore but I love every character), and Joanna Dark would be extremely hype additions to Smash for me personally.

 

[fogbadge]

BanjoNuts & Bolts barely even ran on Xbox 360 lol, don't see how the Wii would of been able to handle its physics engine and what not.

Me thinks Rare may of been forced to go another direction, honestly they may of been slightly more compelled to try a traditional Banjo game considering they still would of had that audience on Wii.

Rare were looking to do something different with the series. Nuts and bolts was a result of people saying all rare did were 3D platformers

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I believe that if Nintendo had bought Rare, then Rare characters would have come more easily into the Super Smash Bros. series. Of course this is an opinion.

Behold, the worlds most lukewarm take.

Obviously if Rare was owned by Nintendo we would probably have seen Rare characters in smash long before we got Banjo as dlc this game. Likely Banjo would have been in Brawl or even Melee. Outside of that since we do know Banjo was considered back then it’s harder to piece out and depends entirely on what rare franchises keep going or have legs in this hypothetical world. While we likely wouldn’t see an exact copy paste of Rares history under Microsoft if only due to how different management wise Microsoft and Nintendo are, it’s still hard to say. I’d say the most likely franchises that would continue sans Banjo Kazooie would be Perfect Dark and maybe Killer Instinct. I can go more in detail on Perfect Dark in particular.

 

[Dinoman96]

Rare were looking to do something different with the series. Nuts and bolts was a result of people saying all rare did were 3D platformers

I know that, but Steve Mayles (creator of Banjo, K. Rool) also implied that it was because they wanted to appeal to the Xbox demographic. Here's a bunch of tidbits regarding its development.

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

• Steve Mayles staight up says at 25:09 that Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts is Banjo-Threeie
• Steve Mayles and co. were happy with the direction Nuts & Bolts took.
• They thought they needed to try something new with N&B with the Xbox market.
• Steve Mayles thinks if they didn't get purchased by Nintendo they might've done a Banjo-Threeie.
• Banjo-X was started in 2004. Rare had no idea what to do with the IP.
• Banjo-X was going back to the original worlds but they were all destroyed.
• The destroyed worlds thing didn't take because it would equal as much work as just making normal worlds.
• They believed if a sequel were to happen people would prefer brand new worlds.
• Banjo-X was gonna be a coop/online where they control four Banjos and the Banjos would help each other. (concept sounded like Tri Force Heroes actually). But this was considered too ambitious. The four Banjos were competition against Grunty.
• Rare split the Banjo team and scaled it back. Most of the team was placed in Viva Pinata.
• At one point Banjo-X had only 1 or 2 staff and the rest was put on Viva Pinata.
• Tim Stamper came up with the initial idea of building stuff in a Banjo game.
• Steve Mayles thought that it didn't fit a Banjo game and would've been a better fit for a new IP.
• Steve think maybe it should've been a Blast Corp game.
• Steve Mayles doesn't think a traditional Banjo-Threeie would even have sold very well on Xbox.
• Steve Mayles believes Nintendo is where Banjo's home is.
• The Rare team was extremely disappointed about the fan backlash.
• The Nuts & Bolts backlash killed any want to make a Banjo game after that.
• Rare as a company lost quite a bit of money on it as it didn't sell as many as they wanted.
• Rare as a company started to change after all their previous IPs didn't hit the market that well.
• A lot of projects were not making it out of the prototype phase, some were scrapped in favor of kinect.
• Steve thinks that BKNB was too complicated and it shouldn't have been Banjo.
• Steve thinks that BKNB should've been a Blast Corp game instead.
• Steve doesn't think BK should have a remake. But does believe they should come back.
• Steve gets annoyed with people redesigning BK. Steve wasn't too happy about the Smash redesign.
• Steve thinks that if BK was remade they look exactly like they did in Smash.
• Playtonic would be happy to make a new Banjo game. But he doesn't think it'll do that well on Xbox.
• Steve thought that all the Nintendo-Rare fans would be loyal enough to purchase an Xbox as soon as Rare moved over to Xbox.
• Not many people bought Ghoulies. Despite it saying they it was made by the original creators of Banjo and DKC.
• Banjo & Kazooie were solely designed with Nintendo in mind.
• Steve doesn't think Rare would be making the new Banjo-Kazooie. But he would be surprised if nobody was working on a new Banjo-Kazooie game.

But ultimately, like I said, I just think Nuts & Bolts, with its emphasis on physics and thus a bajillion vehicle parts flying around everywhere, was gonna on Wii. Even if it wasn't a traditional platformer, I think Rare would of had to come up with something else to work on Wii's hardware.

 

[Quillion]

Considering Yakuza: Like a Dragon was praised outright for doing something new, maybe N&B wouldn't have killed the franchise if they respectfully told its audience that they have to let go of the past like Wind Waker instead of disparaging old fans as nostalgia-addicted and younger gamers as only wanting to play shooters.

N&B ran into the same problem as the DmC reboot of Devil May Cry, and DmC was still a combo-heavy hack-n-slash like the rest of its series.

 

[Gengar84]

The sad thing is that even though I loved Banjo-Kazooie as a game, as a character in Smash, he was always behind the Battletoads, Fulgore, and Joanna Dark for me personally. I just never personally cared a whole lot about Banjo as a character. I don’t dislike him at all and his game was one of my favorite platformers ever but he’s never really been among my all time favorite characters. The only sad thing for me now is a lot of people will say, “You already got your RARE character, don’t be greedy.” Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy Banjo’s here but I definitely still want to see my favorites make it in along side him in the future.

 

[Chuderz]

This post is a spectacular reminder of how we should all be thankful that acquisition fanboys have no sway on the industry or it would get even more dystopically monopolistic.

You know you've been a real ass to me every chance you basically get. I think I've had maybe one decent interaction with you and the rest have been you being a condescending jerk to me. Go away. Your general nastiness toward me is so unwarranted. You have no basis to call me an acquisition fanboy because I didn't come to this thread proclaiming Nintendo should or shouldn't be doing this or that but rather what I thought would make sense for them from a business perspective and I definitely didn't pretend like I had some kind of sway but that sure didn't stop you from reminding nobody of something I didn't even say. Glad you took the time to read through it just for the chance to make you even more miserable somehow through no real effort on my part.

I'm speculating in a thread about the actual real world I live in not the one I wish it was. Get over it. On top of that you don't know me or my politics.

Acting like a Nintendo acquisition of SEGA would be dystopian is laughably overdramatic. There are way more important monopolies than video games and other forms of entertainment. They're not unimportant and all mergers of this kind of size are inherently bad for the consumer but this is what our private markets do and are enabled to do through our laws. Oh and these were not written by me btw because clearly you needed help understanding this.

I personally don't like it but my politics go a lot further than just simply breaking these companies up. I'd allow anybody to make a Mario and Pokemon game in my ideal world by abolishing intellectual property and patent law completely. I'd allocate all profits everywhere to a people's dividend beyond simple taxation welfare projects and cut all government subsidies for privately held corporations unless said subsidies could provide a material benefit to the world population like getting the world on cleaner fuel sources and cleaning environmental habitats and supplies. Would you support all that? If so I guess that's cool that we agree but it doesn't really matter because that's not how the world is just because it's what I'd rather it be. See the difference? I'm sure you do.

If you say Nintendo should buy out SEGA one more time I will break into your house and smash your kneecaps with a baseball bat

I understand it's a joke but I'm pretty annoyed right now.

I basically like that SEGA is relaxed about mods and would hate to see that come to an end (though I personally think companies shouldn't be able to do anything to mods no matter the particular attitudes/practices of the relevant organizations) but I think regardless of that I gave decent enough reasons why this acquisition would make sense.

 

[Quillion]

I'd allow anybody to make a Mario and Pokemon game in my ideal world by abolishing intellectual property and patent law completely.

It sounds socialistic, but I actually agree with this. Maybe at one point copyright law encouraged originality, but now it's working against its original purpose now.

 

[Gengar84]

I think we all need to take a step back and chill out a bit. There are way more important things in the world to worry about than to get stressed out arguing about video games on a message board. This is just a place to have fun and speculate. Let’s all try to be respectful and realize that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I just wanna say real quick, as somebody who's admittedly a bit more open to acquisitions then most, I personally have two main pieces of criteria before I consider the possibility:

1. Do the two companies have a good history with each other?
2. Would it be to the benefit of BOTH parties, not just the one doing the buying?

This is why, when it comes to Nintendo, I mostly suggest they buy companies like IntSys, HAL, Grezzo, and other companies like that. Basically, more stuff like the Next Level Games buyout.

However, with bigger companies, things get a bit more complicated. Especially given Nintendo is somewhat infamously behind when it comes to technical stuff in their consoles. In Sega's case, while the first piece of criteria would certainly fit for Nintendo, the second part... not so much. Aside from being supportive of fan projects, Sega is more or less just like every other game company: always trying to push forward. The majority of their games are on so many different consoles, plus PC, and some of their most recent games are actually rather advanced. So to put them under Nintendo would more likely HURT Sega than help them.

That being said, maybe a sort of... compromise? Like, rather than sell the entire company, they could just sell off certain IPs they have no interest in? I know Nintendo doesn't actually care about the IPs in the acquisition, just the people who make the games, but... I'm just spitballing. Not like anything's gonna happen either way.

 

[Wonder Smash]

(Apologies in advance as I’m running on less sleep than usual)

In terms of inclusions for the next game:

1. How would you feel if there were multiple characters from M-rated games added to the roster?

2. What hangups would there be about such a decision?

No problems at all. I use to have a problem with that a long time but not anymore. Some of the Ninja Gaiden games are M-rated games and we all know about Doom and Mortal Kombat. So characters from M-rated games are not a problem to me.

 

[Quillion]

1. Do the two companies have a good history with each other?
2. Would it be to the benefit of BOTH parties, not just the one doing the buying?

Don't forget that it needs to benefit all consumers rather than just a small group.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Considering Yakuza: Like a Dragon was praised outright for doing something new, maybe N&B wouldn't have killed the franchise if they respectfully told its audience that they have to let go of the past like Wind Waker instead of disparaging old fans as nostalgia-addicted and younger gamers as only wanting to play shooters.

N&B ran into the same problem as the DmC reboot of Devil May Cry, and DmC was still a combo-heavy hack-n-slash like the rest of its series.

Nuts & Bolts failed for a multitude of reasons. Not just because people wanted the nostalgia rush.

Nuts & Bolts tried to do something different and new and I’ll give it to them, it’s a neat concept. The problem with the game is that there’s these big open worlds with only a few missions to do and the same one enemy to smack around or run over. You can goof off by rearranging and practicing with your custom built cars, boats, and planes but getting to the menu is time consuming and the menu itself is clunky. That’s not even mentioning that the physics of the game are so overtly wonky that a lot of the time you might build a good car that just can’t go. The game overall just isn’t very fun to play. The most fun part is the missions and overall those take up a 5% slice of these giant, open, empty worlds. That doesn’t mean the game isn’t devoid of fun or charm but in comparison to the other 2, especially the first one, the fun factor and beloved character interactions is really lacking.

That’s not to say that the game failed strictly on its own merits because when a series like Banjo goes on hiatus for 8 years, returns on a completely different, rival companies console, skips a whole generation of consoles, with an incredibly divisive art-style, and the game itself isn’t even what most old fans would associate with a Banjo game you basically alienate everyone right then and there. The old fans are the only ones looking for a new Banjo game at this point in time because 8 years ago these 18-20 year olds grew up playing Banjo when they were 8-10 years old. This isn’t a 3 year gap like from Majora’s Mask to Wind Waker where Zelda is still fresh in everyone’s minds and you can still capture new fans from branding alone. Presenting the old fans with something so utterly out of left field isn’t the best idea when the old fanbase is the ones who you are dependent on spreading word of mouth on how good the franchise is after 8 years of absolutely nothing.

Odd that you bring up Like a Dragon and DmC too because I hate to break it to you man, being inside the Yakuza fanbase like myself, there is a WHOLE lot of people who say Like a Dragon is the worst in the franchise and even those that love LAD will agree that it’s not their favorite. The game is rather clunky for a JRPG but it’s still a really good game. Difference with this one is that Yakuza has a second franchise called Judgement running side by side with Yakuza that is the traditional Yakuza style beatemup JRPG that Yakuza was in the Kiryu days and the fact that Yakuza never went on a hiatus longer than a few years. I personally love LAD but it’s hard to talk about LAD in the Yakuza fanbase because to be honest a lot of them don’t like the direction they went. These are all the older fans mostly. Newer fans who haven’t been playing Yakuza since 2005 are more open to the idea of a completely different direction because the franchise is very fresh to them so a fresh start doesn’t seem like a rug pull.

Nuts & Bolts didn’t run into the same issues as DmC. Not at all. DmC completely changed the main thing people love about the DMC games. The characters. Leading up to release they made Dante a chain-smoking emo kid and deleted everyone else but Virgil who was now a stuck-up higher than thou character. That’s to say Dante would’ve been an chain smoking emo kid if Capcom had its way but Ninja Theory fought tooth and nail to try to make Dante like his old self so he kinda ended up closer to our Dante in the release of the game but the writing of the game was still very influenced by that starting direction which made the story of Dante and the entire tone of the game feel super messy. DmC failed because of all the inter studio mumbo jumbo that Capcom was known for at the time. Not because the base direction of the game. Not to mention they called old Dante a “gay-cowboy” in a bid to say new Dante was cooler like that was supposed to be some kind of insult. The game was a mess man, even if the gameplay holds up really well.

Edit: tl;dr point is even if they respectfully told Banjo fans to not cling to the past the game would’ve still failed. It’s not the game people wanted. And it’s just not all that fun. I’ll give it to Microsoft though , they could’ve told Rare “no just make a traditional platformer Banjo” and shut down Nuts & Bolts completely but they had faith in Rare and wanted their creativity to shine. Unfortunately this was one of the few times where Rare’s creativity got the better of them.

 

[Gengar84]

Don't forget that it needs to benefit all consumers rather than just a small group.

My biggest concern is that I don’t want to see my favorite developers split between Microsoft and Sony. I’m pretty much always buying a Nintendo console as my primary and one of the others as a secondary. I would hate to miss out on playing too many of my favorites. It’s already going to sting to have to possibly give up on Final Fantasy if I end up going with Microsoft this time. At least I haven’t really loved a Final Fantasy game since Final Fantasy X with the exception of VII remake so maybe it’s for the best.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Been playing the new River City Three Kingdoms. Loving how classic RCR it is.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd just like to venture my own opinion in regards to abolishing IP owner ship. now please don't take this as attack on those of you who brought it up I just wanted to say this while we were on the subject. anyway, I feel letting people use any game franchise they want is and unbelievably bad idea. sure there'd be benefits, you can all use whatever mod you want in your tournaments but this is one double edged sword we can do without. think about it, if everyone can make mario and pokemon games that's all anyone will make, not literally but you get the idea, with a logic of by sticking the biggest gaming characters into their games people will pay it attention. and we'll just end up with a similar situation like where everyone and their uncle uses lovecraft monsters. even if anyone trys to come up with some original cosmic horror someone else will just retcon them into something lovecraftian. is that really want you want for gaming? thousands of games where everyone just uses the same characters over and over and over. just think about it every game series your sick of will suddenly explode. it would be a disaster.

as for the subject of company acquiring I am of the opinion that nintendo would be as well to buy the companies that just work on IPs they share with nintendo anyway. you know hal, IS, camelot etc

 

[Gengar84]

Been playing the new River City Three Kingdoms. Loving how classic RCR it is.

Interesting. I’ve never heard of that before. I loved Shredder’s Revenge and other classic beat ‘em ups and I’m a huge Dynasty Warriors fan so maybe I should give it a shot. I was considering trying the new Streets of Rage next since I think it’s it’s by the same developers as Shredder’s Revenge.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Interesting. I’ve never heard of that before. I loved Shredder’s Revenge and other classic beat ‘em ups and I’m a huge Dynasty Warriors fan so maybe I should give it a shot. I was considering trying the new Streets of Rage next since I think it’s it’s by the same developers as Shredder’s Revenge.

Streets of Rage 4 is goated so yeah go get it.

You know if really like for Microsoft to get the rights to Battleatoads/Double Dragon. Would be dope to have that game again.

 

[Gengar84]

Streets of Rage 4 is goated so yeah go get it.

You know if really like for Microsoft to get the rights to Battleatoads/Double Dragon. Would be dope to have that game again.

I would love that. My pie in the sky dream is to have Tribute Games make a Battletoads/TMNT crossover Beat em up since Battletoads are my brother’s favorite property ever and TMNT are mine. I’ll definitely still be super hyped just to be able to be able to play BT & DD again because that game was amazing and extremely underrated.

 

[Dan Quixote]

All this talk of beat-em-ups and HOW is there so LITTLE representation of such a classic genre in Smash?

 

[osby]

All this talk of beat-em-ups and HOW is there so LITTLE representation of such a classic genre in Smash?

Probably because Nintendo doesn't make much of them? It's the same deal with FPS games, really.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

All this talk of beat-em-ups and HOW is there so LITTLE representation of such a classic genre in Smash?

A lot of the best beat-‘em-ups are actually licensed games. TMNT, X-Men, Scott Pilgrim, Simpson, etc. Double Dragon is somewhat in a Copyright nightmare and then I guess Streets of Rage, Final Fight, and Battletoads just aren’t as big of a grab as other characters from their respective companies.

 

[Sucumbio]

Cut talk -> acquisition talk -> I forgotten what's next .. oh right dream characters...

With a side of Beat em Up rep

Haggar for Smash please Nintendo!
(No, Suco Axel Stone!)
Oh.. k. I played SoR. But ya know... I played Final Fight first. Spent lots of quarters.

So Beat em up Capcom rep in next Smash checks a lotta boxes. More Capcom more genre more awesome

 

[Gengar84]

I think the Battletoads offer quite a lot to the roster to set them apart from everyone else. For one, they would be the first Beat em up reps. Secondly, they are all nonhumans that aren’t overly cartoony (depending on which incarnation you pull from). I think their SNES Battlemaniacs or arcade designs are perfect representations and would really stand out visually and have really expressive movesets. Rash from Killer Instinct did a great job showing how well their moves can translate to a fighting game. We can get a bit more creative for a platform fighter like Smash but Rash is a great base to work from.

 

[Perkilator]

All this talk of beat-em-ups and HOW is there so LITTLE representation of such a classic genre in Smash?

Sari did writeups talking about Haggar and Axel Stone, if anyone’s interested.

 

[Sucumbio]

No wait Tohmas the Kanfu Master!

 

[MBRedboy31]

Nuts & Bolts failed for a multitude of reasons. Not just because people wanted the nostalgia rush.

Nuts & Bolts tried to do something different and new and I’ll give it to them, it’s a neat concept. The problem with the game is that there’s these big open worlds with only a few missions to do and the same one enemy to smack around or run over. You can goof off by rearranging and practicing with your custom built cars, boats, and planes but getting to the menu is time consuming and the menu itself is clunky. That’s not even mentioning that the physics of the game are so overtly wonky that a lot of the time you might build a good car that just can’t go. The game overall just isn’t very fun to play. The most fun part is the missions and overall those take up a 5% slice of these giant, open, empty worlds. That doesn’t mean the game isn’t devoid of fun or charm but in comparison to the other 2, especially the first one, the fun factor and beloved character interactions is really lacking.

That’s not to say that the game failed strictly on its own merits because when a series like Banjo goes on hiatus for 8 years, returns on a completely different, rival companies console, skips a whole generation of consoles, with an incredibly divisive art-style, and the game itself isn’t even what most old fans would associate with a Banjo game you basically alienate everyone right then and there. The old fans are the only ones looking for a new Banjo game at this point in time because 8 years ago these 18-20 year olds grew up playing Banjo when they were 8-10 years old. This isn’t a 3 year gap like from Majora’s Mask to Wind Waker where Zelda is still fresh in everyone’s minds and you can still capture new fans from branding alone. Presenting the old fans with something so utterly out of left field isn’t the best idea when the old fanbase is the ones who you are dependent on spreading word of mouth on how good the franchise is after 8 years of absolutely nothing.

Odd that you bring up Like a Dragon and DmC too because I hate to break it to you man, being inside the Yakuza fanbase like myself, there is a WHOLE lot of people who say Like a Dragon is the worst in the franchise and even those that love LAD will agree that it’s not their favorite. The game is rather clunky for a JRPG but it’s still a really good game. Difference with this one is that Yakuza has a second franchise called Judgement running side by side with Yakuza that is the traditional Yakuza style beatemup JRPG that Yakuza was in the Kiryu days and the fact that Yakuza never went on a hiatus longer than a few years. I personally love LAD but it’s hard to talk about LAD in the Yakuza fanbase because to be honest a lot of them don’t like the direction they went. These are all the older fans mostly. Newer fans who haven’t been playing Yakuza since 2005 are more open to the idea of a completely different direction because the franchise is very fresh to them so a fresh start doesn’t seem like a rug pull.

Nuts & Bolts didn’t run into the same issues as DmC. Not at all. DmC completely changed the main thing people love about the DMC games. The characters. Leading up to release they made Dante a chain-smoking emo kid and deleted everyone else but Virgil who was now a stuck-up higher than thou character. That’s to say Dante would’ve been an chain smoking emo kid if Capcom had its way but Ninja Theory fought tooth and nail to try to make Dante like his old self so he kinda ended up closer to our Dante in the release of the game but the writing of the game was still very influenced by that starting direction which made the story of Dante and the entire tone of the game feel super messy. DmC failed because of all the inter studio mumbo jumbo that Capcom was known for at the time. Not because the base direction of the game. Not to mention they called old Dante a “gay-cowboy” in a bid to say new Dante was cooler like that was supposed to be some kind of insult. The game was a mess man, even if the gameplay holds up really well.

Edit: tl;dr point is even if they respectfully told Banjo fans to not cling to the past the game would’ve still failed. It’s not the game people wanted. And it’s just not all that fun. I’ll give it to Microsoft though , they could’ve told Rare “no just make a traditional platformer Banjo” and shut down Nuts & Bolts completely but they had faith in Rare and wanted their creativity to shine. Unfortunately this was one of the few times where Rare’s creativity got the better of them.

One thing I find interesting is that N&B is, like, the only big AAA console game in its genre AFAIK.

There’s a lot of indie games in this genre (Scrap Mechanic, Trailmakers, Brick Rigs, Main Assembly, Instruments of Destruction, etc.) and some slightly larger(?) ones (Crossout, certain levels in Roblox since Roblox in general is big) but… evidently it was in a genre too niche to work out.

 

[Gengar84]

One thing I find interesting is that N&B is, like, the only big AAA console game in its genre AFAIK.

There’s a lot of indie games in this genre (Scrap Mechanic, Trailmakers, Brick Rigs, Main Assembly, Instruments of Destruction, etc.) and some slightly larger(?) ones (Crossout, certain levels in Roblox since Roblox in general is big) but… evidently it was in a genre too niche to work out.

I feel like Banjo’s angular redesign didn’t do him any favors either. I really didn’t care for his design in that game and it might have turned me off had I owned an X-Box at the time.

 

[Speed Weed]

Interesting. I’ve never heard of that before. I loved Shredder’s Revenge and other classic beat ‘em ups and I’m a huge Dynasty Warriors fan so maybe I should give it a shot. I was considering trying the new Streets of Rage next since I think it’s it’s by the same developers as Shredder’s Revenge.

Yes please try Streets of Rage 4 it's amazing

 

[Dinoman96]

I feel like Banjo’s angular redesign didn’t do him any favors either. I really didn’t care for his design in that game and it might have turned me off had I owned an X-Box at the time.

Imagine if they had this as a set of alt costumes in Smash

****, scratch that, imagine if this was their default look.

 

[Gengar84]

Imagine if they had this as a set of alt costumes in Smash

****, scratch that, imagine if this was their default look.

I’m so glad Smash went with his classic design. At least it’s not quite as bad as the travesty that is the Michael Bay TMNT. I have no idea what they were thinking with those designs. They still make early movie Sonic look great by comparison.

Then again, maybe I’m just being an old man and resistant to anything new. I didn’t care for the Battletoads reboot designs or Rise of the TMNT either in comparison to the classics. It’s starting to feel like I’m just out of touch lol. “Back in my day, characters looked cool!”

 

[Diddy Kong]

I believe that if Nintendo had bought Rare, then Rare characters would have come more easily into the Super Smash Bros. series. Of course this is an opinion.

This isn't an opinion, close to facts. Banjo was treated as a Nintendo character back in the days, he wasn't "less" core Nintendo than Diddy was for example.

I think that if RARE would've established strong ongoing IPs on Nintendo, those characters would make a strong case. I doubt Conker would've been included as a vulgar character, but he'd be added around the time of Brawl with a more toned down moveset. Using the slingshot and frying pan for moves for example.

 

[Gengar84]

This isn't an opinion, close to facts. Banjo was treated as a Nintendo character back in the days, he wasn't "less" core Nintendo than Diddy was for example.

I think that if RARE would've established strong ongoing IPs on Nintendo, those characters would make a strong case. I doubt Conker would've been included as a vulgar character, but he'd be added around the time of Brawl with a more toned down moveset. Using the slingshot and frying pan for moves for example.

My guess is that we’d have Banjo, the Battletoads, Fulgore, Conker, and Joanna Dark all in Smash already if Nintendo had bought RARE instead of Microsoft all those years ago. We might have even gotten Gruntilda and a second Killer Instinct character by this point but that probably depends on whether Banjo or KI would have remained active series under Nintendo.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I’m so glad Smash went with his classic design. At least it’s not quite as bad as the travesty that is the Michael Bay TMNT. I have no idea what they were thinking with those designs. They still make early movie Sonic look great by comparison.

Then again, maybe I’m just being an old man and resistant to anything new. I didn’t care for the Battletoads reboot designs or Rise of the TMNT either in comparison to the classics. It’s starting to feel like I’m just out of touch lol. “Back in my day, characters looked cool!”

Hey: at least the Chip n Dale Rescue Rangers movie redeemed Ugly Sonic for a lot of people...

Also, I'd say that's less "out of touch", and more "being nostalgic". Like, you grew up with those designs, therefore you're a bit biased. Happens with a lot of things, really: why do you think I mentioned wanting Billy Hatcher to get more... anything really, not just Smash?