Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[chocolatejr9]

I'm not sure if this is the BEST place to share this (maybe we can use this to get a better idea of how Mario content is treated in Smash? IDK), but I figured I'd share it here because it gives a better idea of how Nintendo viewed Mario circa 2007:

Just this once I hope Ian is wrong cos like, I knew Nintendo would be strict with Mario but that is ALOT more strict than I expected lmao 🤣 pic.twitter.com/ONAMKJEknz

— System509 (@System9509) July 20, 2022

Keep in mind, though, that this was back in 2007. They seem to be a lot more leniant with the IP these days, what with Odyssey and the upcoming movie.

 

[SPEN18]

If we get a Nintendog rep wouldn’t RoboPup make the most sense since he is the fictional one? We didn’t get a Nintendog rep due to them being basically real animals but I think RoboPup is the only one that could have the special case of becoming playable and he is the most unique one

Why wasn't a Nintendog playable in Brawl? Well, the reason given:

Nintendo Power May 2008 Vol 228 [Transcription]

Transcription of Sakurai’s interview with Nintendo Power; May 2008. Volume 228. Ridley, wavedashing, character selection and designed are talked about.

sourcegaming.info

The Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash

A comprehensive update to the Definitive List of Unused Fighters in Smash! A fully sourced list of every statement made by Sakurai on potential fighters for each entry in the Smash series.

sourcegaming.info

"We looked at games like Animal Crossing and Nintendogs, where aren’t really any characters that lend themselves to fighting, and we decided not to include characters from those series as fighting characters."
[yes, the transcription seemingly has a minor typo/error]


Ah, the infamous "not a fighter" argument, which has now been killed. Afaik Nintendogs being real animals has never been mentioned by Sakurai as a disqualifier. Given how often they've appeared as ATs, Trophies, etc. in Smash, I don't think Sakurai considers that an issue, but that's just my sense. The problem now is that Nintendogs isn't as relevant anymore.

--

I didn’t expect Style Savvy to be multi million but it’s seems it is
Curious how would that be represented in smash

Stylist (Super Smash Bros. Infinite)

This article is about Stylist's appearance in Super Smash Bros. Infinite. For other uses, see Stylist.

super-smash-bros-infinite.fandom.com

A moveset for Savvy Stylist made by some folks from Smashboards.

 

[dream1ng]

I'm not sure if this is the BEST place to share this (maybe we can use this to get a better idea of how Mario content is treated in Smash? IDK), but I figured I'd share it here because it gives a better idea of how Nintendo viewed Mario circa 2007:

Just this once I hope Ian is wrong cos like, I knew Nintendo would be strict with Mario but that is ALOT more strict than I expected lmao 🤣 pic.twitter.com/ONAMKJEknz

— System509 (@System9509) July 20, 2022

Keep in mind, though, that this was back in 2007. They seem to be a lot more leniant with the IP these days, what with Odyssey and the upcoming movie.

I do think the Wii/Wii U epoch was the height of Nintendo's domineering control of their IP, and they've relaxed a little since, though clearly they still exact very austere control over Mario, what with the Wahoominati shutting down external devs wanting to get too creative with the property.

Frankly I'm surprised they allowed NLG to return to Strikers' more extreme art style, but that was probably grandfathered in.

But I think Sakurai is afforded license whereas other devs are not. I don't think Nintendo would let too many people do this.

or this

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Nintendo's weird barriers with Mario are pretty much a given at this point. That Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi original characters can't even get into Mario spin-offs is telling of how seriously they divide their respective subrands.

 

[Quillion]

Nintendo's weird barriers with Mario are pretty much a given at this point. That Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi original characters can't even get into Mario spin-offs is telling of how seriously they divide their respective subrands.

Wasn't that the case since before the SPM-triggered mandates? I know the Star Spirits from Paper Mario 64 were in one Mario Party game, but that's it.

Frankly, it bothers more that WarioWare characters are seemingly barred from the extended Mario universe when Donkey Kong characters are allowed at least from time to time.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

Ah, the infamous "not a fighter" argument, which has now been killed. Afaik Nintendogs being real animals has never been mentioned by Sakurai as a disqualifier. Given how often they've appeared as ATs, Trophies, etc. in Smash, I don't think Sakurai considers that an issue, but that's just my sense. The problem now is that Nintendogs isn't as relevant anymore.

Well said. Indeed, the problem isn't that they wouldn't fit the world of Smash as a fighter, but rather that Nintendo is gleefully ignoring the franchise and pretending it doesn't exist anymore for one reason or another despite it being one of their biggest moneymakers in the DS days. Thus the Nintendog joins the Isaac category of "would be great for Smash but Nintendo doesn't remember the fact they exist so Sakurai just throws up his hands and makes them assist trophies".

Please, Nintendo...give us a new Nintendogs game

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I love Nintendogs. I really do.

But something about potentially beating up a realistic puppy doesn't sit right with me. Sure we have characters like Isabelle and Pichu but they are cartoons. Nintendogs are not stylized dogs. They're made to be as realistic as possible.

I think a non violent assist trophy is the perfect place for them. They even got a (well deserved) stage. Nintendogs isn't being ignored at all. It just has the perfect representation already.

 

[Quillion]

Well said. Indeed, the problem isn't that they wouldn't fit the world of Smash as a fighter, but rather that Nintendo is gleefully ignoring the franchise and pretending it doesn't exist anymore for one reason or another despite it being one of their biggest moneymakers in the DS days. Thus the Nintendog joins the Isaac category of "would be great for Smash but Nintendo doesn't remember the fact they exist so Sakurai just throws up his hands and makes them assist trophies".

Please, Nintendo...give us a new Nintendogs game

A big Nintenpets game where you get to raise dogs, cats, and maybe other pets like horses and rabbits would be pretty cool. We really need more Switch games that take advantage of the handheld touchscreen, and that would be it.

That said, I don't know how well a playable Nintendog could work even without the "not a fighter" argument, and Swamp Sensei puts it better than I can.

 

[Pink Yoshi]

I love Nintendogs. I really do.

But something about potentially beating up a realistic puppy doesn't sit right with me. Sure we have characters like Isabelle and Pichu but they are cartoons. Nintendogs are not stylized dogs. They're made to be as realistic as possible.

I think a non violent assist trophy is the perfect place for them. They even got a (well deserved) stage. Nintendogs isn't being ignored at all. It just has the perfect representation already.

Oh yeah...that's a fair point. Though someone DID mention making the Robopup from 3DS as the Nintendogs rep. But either way I'd still feel guilty The same as I do when I beat up Isabelle.

In the words of Pit, "I don't wanna fight that cute dog!"

Then again my wants in general are crazy. No-one else has asked for Grima or Zeena in Smash, I'm sure of it

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Wasn't that the case since before the SPM-triggered mandates? I know the Star Spirits from Paper Mario 64 were in one Mario Party game, but that's it.

Frankly, it bothers more that WarioWare characters are seemingly barred from the extended Mario universe when Donkey Kong characters are allowed at least from time to time.

The only exception that has ever been given to Warioware is that Diamond city is a stage in Mario kart arcade.

That's it and that annoys the hell out of me because Warioware's characters are cool.

 

[Quillion]

The only exception that has ever been given to Warioware is that Diamond city is a stage in Mario kart arcade.

That's it and that annoys the hell out of me because Warioware's characters are cool.

TBH, there's reason to believe that the "Diamond City" in MKAGP is just a coincidence.

 

[Geno Boost]

Wasn't that the case since before the SPM-triggered mandates? I know the Star Spirits from Paper Mario 64 were in one Mario Party game, but that's it.

Frankly, it bothers more that WarioWare characters are seemingly barred from the extended Mario universe when Donkey Kong characters are allowed at least from time to time.

At least Warioware characters are still being used and they are not kept dead we are lucky to have Ana & Kat and Ashley in 3D on smash series
The same cannot be said to the paper Mario and Mario & Luigi RPG characters

 

[fogbadge]

Right, which shows that never going dormant doesn't mean you're a-tier.


These are all less than 1 mil apart (Forgotten Land aside, as its current sales are unknown), that's not a significant difference, and if anything shows how generally on-par they are.


Don't have anything new to say about this one re: sales. Like I said, a testament to consistency, not necessarily stature.

Kirby has around the same sales as BioShock, but BioShock did it in three (and one collection), while Kirby is at 30-something to get to the same level.


Samus is an icon of gaming. Metroid isn't a-tier.


I'm not saying that's the threshold, that just demonstrates the Switch bump and the disparity between series.


Splatoon's not an exception to my "rules", it's a-tier too. Splatoon 2 is gonna go past 15 mil when all is said and done. It's just not as up there as the other ones.


I've called Kirby successful in most of my posts on the matter. I said it in the very post you quoted. Do you think being b-tier means a series isn't a success? That's awful picky. That would be like saying 3H and Dread weren't successes.

as much as I want to counter act those points it would be useless. This entire debate just boils down to a fundamental difference in philosophy and we’ll get no where

although I doubt splatoon 2 is going make those last 2 million sales in the 2 months before 3 is out

 

[Diddy Kong]

You've been on the boards for a min lol dang so like how did you feel when Diddy came to Brawl?

Best hype moment I had Smash related. Beats everything else, by a landslide. I just turned 17 around that time, and the Dojo updates where in the early morning for me, at least, they happened somewhere between midnight and 3AM or so, so I always checked them out first in the morning. And I literally screamed out of joy because of it.

 

[Sucumbio]

Best hype moment I had Smash related. Beats everything else, by a landslide. I just turned 17 around that time, and the Dojo updates where in the early morning for me, at least, they happened somewhere between midnight and 3AM or so, so I always checked them out first in the morning. And I literally screamed out of joy because of it.

That's what's up. I think Sephiroth is still the character that got the most audible pop from me... Something between a squeeling chirp and a oh ****! And Kazuya of course made me feel the most excited but I could barely make any noise at all lol.

We anyway I ask because back then according to a translation of a famitsu article

"Well, Diddy Kong I was planning to pair with Dixie Kong. I planned to replace them instantly with every touch. There were various difficult parts and I cut it quickly," Sakurai said. The intention was for players to be able to switch between Diddy and Dixie, similar to the Ice Climbers duo."

I'm thinking had this worked we'd be in a very different place with DK rep but since that boat sailed it seems more likely Dixie would be a standalone fighter or (cringe) an alt.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd like to ask dr mario players something: was sakurai right in his estimation for smash 4 that you guys would have been annoyed if doc didn't play like he did in melee?

 

[Dinoman96]

I'd like to ask dr mario players something: was sakurai right in his estimation for smash 4 that you guys would have been annoyed if doc didn't play like he did in melee?

Honestly as someone who played Mario and Doc in Melee, yeah. They ARE different characters even if they are technically the same guy wearing a different outfit.

Project M however got away with it because their version of Mario was essentially a combination of Melee Mario and Doc, the best of both worlds.

 

[fogbadge]

Honestly as someone who played Mario and Doc in Melee, yeah. They ARE different characters even if they are technically the same guy wearing a different outfit.

Project M however got away with it because their version of Mario was essentially a combination of Melee Mario and Doc, the best of both worlds.

miyamoto once said that the dr Mario games were non canon

interesting to know

 

[Lenidem]

miyamoto once said that the dr Mario games were non canon

interesting to know

Where and when did he say that?

 

[fogbadge]

Where and when did he say that?

it was years ago and I doubt it holds true anymore. Though bare with me it’s gonna take sometime to find it

 

[Dinoman96]

Since when has Miyamoto ever given a hoot about Mario canon

 

[Sucumbio]

SM: There's really only one rule in terms of the things that Mario does. Generally, it's that he's more on the blue-collar side. He's hard-working, and certainly much more physical in nature. So, I think that a doctor is sort of an unexpected and perhaps unbelievable role for Mario. Perhaps the Dr. Mario you're thinking of was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate.

Source

BTW I think given the tone of the interview he's more saying "Doctor Mario" is less capable a doctor than he is a plumber. Not that his incarnation in the games are not actually the same Mario. So... Actually Dr. Mario has probably always been "canon" but more to the point there's no real canon to speak of. Mario Mario is the one and only Mario and everything you see him in, it's him.

That interview actually has lots of tidbits I didn't know heh

 

[JustPlainDan]

(Apologies in advance as I’m running on less sleep than usual)

In terms of inclusions for the next game:

1. How would you feel if there were multiple characters from M-rated games added to the roster?

2. What hangups would there be about such a decision?

 

[Dan Quixote]

miyamoto once said that the dr Mario games were non canon

interesting to know

Is ANY Mario game canon?

 

[fogbadge]

Is ANY Mario game canon?

that’s why I said I doubt it holds true

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Mario has canon?

 

[osby]

(Apologies in advance as I’m running on less sleep than usual)

In terms of inclusions for the next game:

1. How would you feel if there were multiple characters from M-rated games added to the roster?

2. What hangups would there be about such a decision?

1. As long as they are characters I enjoy, I don't mind. We already have a few of them, I don't think more of them would make a big difference.
2. People who were mad about Snake, Bayo, and Joker not "fitting into" Smash would stay mad.

 

[Lenidem]

Mario has canon?

Of course he has.

SM: There's really only one rule in terms of the things that Mario does. Generally, it's that he's more on the blue-collar side. He's hard-working, and certainly much more physical in nature. So, I think that a doctor is sort of an unexpected and perhaps unbelievable role for Mario. Perhaps the Dr. Mario you're thinking of was maybe, in some way, not necessarily legitimate.

Source

BTW I think given the tone of the interview he's more saying "Doctor Mario" is less capable a doctor than he is a plumber. Not that his incarnation in the games are not actually the same Mario. So... Actually Dr. Mario has probably always been "canon" but more to the point there's no real canon to speak of. Mario Mario is the one and only Mario and everything you see him in, it's him.

That interview actually has lots of tidbits I didn't know heh

Thanks for the source. Even in Miyamoto's words: "perhaps", "maybe", "in some way", "not necessarily"...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Is ANY Mario game canon?

You fool! If none of them are canon, then they're ALL canon!

 

[Pink Yoshi]

I've had an idea in the past of stage types in the vein of Omega Stages that are completely edge and pit-free (angels aside...), being just walk-offs like Wii Fit Studio. "Delta Stages", I call them. They'd be fun, but I doubt they'd be used competitively as it'd make characters like Little Mac and Incineroar completely busted.

 

[Sucumbio]

I've had an idea in the past of stage types in the vein of Omega Stages that are completely edge and pit-free (angels aside...), being just walk-offs like Wii Fit Studio. "Delta Stages", I call them. They'd be fun, but I doubt they'd be used competitively as it'd make characters like Little Mac and Incineroar completely busted.

Yeah degeneration happens quick when there's a walk off or tiny blast zone but it's crazy fun with 10 stocks no timer on Yoshi's Island or Sonic's Green Hill Zone. Hazards and Items on ofc.

 

[Stratos]

There were three Nintendo hanafuda decks, Daitouryou, Tengu and Miyako no Hana. If one of Daitouryou and Tengu is to come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series as a symbol of what Nintendo started when it was founded by the first president Fusajiro Yamauchi on September 23 1889, I would say Tengu, because Daitouryou portrays Napoleon, who he was an existing person.

 

[fogbadge]

View attachment 357011


There were three Nintendo hanafuda decks, Daitouryou, Tengu and Miyako no Hana. If one of Daitouryou and Tengu is to come as a newcomer to the Super Smash Bros. series as a symbol of what Nintendo started when it was founded by the first president Fusajiro Yamauchi on September 23 1889, I would say Tengu, because Daitouryou portrays Napoleon, who he was an existing person.

speaking of nintendo's history, perhaps we should have stage based on nintendo's taxi service or the love hotel

 

[Gengar84]

Stages are the one thing I’ve been pretty disappointed in with modern Smash titles. I feel like Smash 64 and Melee got them just right but since then they’ve gone too far in one direction or the other either making them too gimmicky or boring Battlefield variants (sometimes both in the case of Mega Man’s stage). My favorite stages are the ones with interesting layouts that feel like you’re actually playing in a part of the stage from the game but where the gimmicks aren’t too distracting to gameplay. I feel like the first two Smash games had a ton of these kinds of stages and there have been a few here and there since then but they seem to be increasingly rare. Every stage being the same floating Battlefield-esque layout kind of breaks the immersion a bit for me, kind of like comparing New Super Mario Bros. stages to Tropical Freeze if that makes sense.

 

[Stratos]

speaking of nintendo's history, perhaps we should have stage based on nintendo's taxi service or the love hotel

A stage based from Nintendo's taxi service, good idea.

 

[JustPlainDan]

So, following up on my questions about characters from M-rated games being added, I put together a small list:

Characters:
Leon Kennedy (Resident Evil)
Dante (Devil May Cry)
2B (Nier Automata)
Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)


Costumes (along with bringing back the Doomslayer one):
Master Chief (Halo)
Vergil (Devil May Cry)
Lady (Devil May Cry)
Chris Redfield (Resident Evil)
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Albert Wesker (Resident Evil)
9S (Nier Automata)
Pyramid Head (Silent Hill)
Monokuma (Danganronpa)

So, honest opinion: let’s say Smash 6 arrives and all this goes down. How would you feel? Are there too few or too many?

 

[Gengar84]

So, following up on my questions about characters from M-rated games being added, I put together a small list:

Characters:
Leon Kennedy (Resident Evil)
Dante (Devil May Cry)
2B (Nier Automata)
Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)


Costumes (along with bringing back the Doomslayer one):
Master Chief (Halo)
Vergil (Devil May Cry)
Lady (Devil May Cry)
Chris Redfield (Resident Evil)
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Albert Wesker (Resident Evil)
9S (Nier Automata)
Pyramid Head (Silent Hill)
Monokuma (Danganronpa)

So, honest opinion: let’s say Smash 6 arrives and all this goes down. How would you feel? Are there too few or too many?

I’m totally fine with M rated characters in Smash personally. We already have Bayonetta, Snake, and Joker and they’re all cool. None of the characters listed above are among my very most wanted but I’d still be happy to see quite a few of them. Off the top of my head, I think my most wanted M rated character is Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat but he’s definitely got a few hurdles to clear before he can make it into Smash. I personally feel the worldwide popularity of Mortal Kombat would be worth the effort and the property has already shown multiple times that it can easily be toned down to fit broader audiences without losing what makes the characters feel special.

 

[Sucumbio]

So, following up on my questions about characters from M-rated games being added, I put together a small list:

Characters:
Leon Kennedy (Resident Evil)
Dante (Devil May Cry)
2B (Nier Automata)
Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)


Costumes (along with bringing back the Doomslayer one):
Master Chief (Halo)
Vergil (Devil May Cry)
Lady (Devil May Cry)
Chris Redfield (Resident Evil)
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Albert Wesker (Resident Evil)
9S (Nier Automata)
Pyramid Head (Silent Hill)
Monokuma (Danganronpa)

So, honest opinion: let’s say Smash 6 arrives and all this goes down. How would you feel? Are there too few or too many?

I'd be down with a rep from all 4 games tho 2B I'm not familiar with

 

[JustPlainDan]

I’m totally fine with M rated characters in Smash personally. We already have Bayonetta, Snake, and Joker and they’re all cool. None of the characters listed above are among my very most wanted but I’d still be happy to see quite a few of them. Off the top of my head, I think my most wanted M rated character is Sub-Zero from Mortal Kombat but he’s definitely got a few hurdles to clear before he can make it into Smash. I personally feel the worldwide popularity of Mortal Kombat would be worth the effort and the property has already shown multiple times that it can easily be toned down to fit broader audiences without losing what makes the characters feel special.

Wow, I can’t believe I forgot Mortal Kombat of all things, especially with it being mentioned in my signature

 

[Stratos]

So, following up on my questions about characters from M-rated games being added, I put together a small list:

Characters:
Leon Kennedy (Resident Evil)
Dante (Devil May Cry)
2B (Nier Automata)
Ryu Hayabusa (Ninja Gaiden)


Costumes (along with bringing back the Doomslayer one):
Master Chief (Halo)
Vergil (Devil May Cry)
Lady (Devil May Cry)
Chris Redfield (Resident Evil)
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
Albert Wesker (Resident Evil)
9S (Nier Automata)
Pyramid Head (Silent Hill)
Monokuma (Danganronpa)

So, honest opinion: let’s say Smash 6 arrives and all this goes down. How would you feel? Are there too few or too many?

I think it's okay.